HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Indeed, in Japan they drive a knife into the brainstem [2]. Why is Japan so progressive? Their medical products, their audio equipment, their food, I mean...pretty much everything I've ever purchased from Japan is on another level of care, consideration, design, and quality.

It's like..they understand something that most of the world doesn't. Japan loves cats and sells products for cats that no other country produces. Even their moving companies have special boxes... I've never seen anything like that in America [1]

[1] https://youtu.be/ynEjnebw8LA

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikejime

⬐ rozab

Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikizukuri

⬐ goldenkey

I suppose my initial statement was not entirely factual. Japan, get with it!

⬐ tpmx

Noone mention the dolphins and the whales...

⬐ goldenkey

That too is a travesty. And apparently they have a fringe practice of eating animals alive but as far as I understand it, much of this is only furthered by older folks in Japan. The same thing in Korea is happening - older folks ok with eating dog while younger folks have them as pets.

I suppose my initial statement was not entirely factual. Japan, get with it!

⬐ rad_gruchalski

> Why is Japan so progressive?

Maybe the people of Taiji can answer.

⬐ f6v

Don’t some people eat sea creatures alive there?

⬐ goldenkey

Yes, apparently it is not very common but a bunch of Asian countries practice this barbarism.

https://uminchuproject.tumblr.com/post/52861612151/ikizukuri...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikizukuri

:-(

⬐ snypher

Nothing more progressive than driving a knife into a brainstem.

⬐ alephu5

Would it be progressive to stop eating animals?

⬐ nefitty

What? Yes. Killing sentient beings is objectively wrong.

⬐ macinjosh

The food chain is immoral. Got it.

⬐ uDontKnowMe

The food chain is an abstraction that describes the natural world, not a moral agent any more than the water cycle is. Wild animals predate in the wild, yes, but they aren't moral agents. Humans are able to reason about our own actions and more importantly we can live and indeed thrive on a plant-based diet. So since there are ways to get our food other than killing other thinking, feeling, suffering individuals, we aren't forced to do so. We just choose to inflict incomprehensible amounts of suffering on animals not out of necessity but because we like the taste of cow milk slightly more than we like the taste of oat milk, or we love the way their flesh tastes, and would rather eat it than cook a plant-based meal.

We inflict billions of lifetimes of misery and torture on creatures with their own desires and will to live, who feel suffering and pain just as much as we do, in service of an utterly unnecessary and trivial benefit, that while we could live incredibly well, even healthier and with less impact on the environment on a plant-based diet, we like the taste of their flesh and excretions too much to choose oat milk and tofu at the grocery store.

Yes it is wrong! Future generations will look back at our time as with disbelief that we behave like this.

⬐ c22

You're just moving your consumption farther from your leaf of the tree of life--which is totally fine, even most meat-eaters will balk at cannibalism. But what makes you so certain plants are unfeeling and can't experience pain? I observe plants attempting to avoid and heal from damage, so I assume they do have some analogue experiences around feelings of suffering.

⬐ nefitty

Whether plants feel pain or not doesn't impact our responsibility to reduce the suffering of animals we can naturally better empathize with.

Plants lack pain receptors and the nervous systems to process pain signals. Whatever their "experience", it's safe to assume it is so alien to us as to be incomprehensible. In that case, it's very unlikely any of the concepts we use to describe our lived experiences (ie suffering) would apply to a plant whatsoever. The correlate is trying to imagine what photosynthesizing feels like.

I can viscerally imagine what a bird feels when its beak is cauterized.

⬐ c22

I agree that a plant's lived experience is likely somewhat alien to our own, but why do we have a "responsibility" to reduce suffering only for living things closer to us? And where do you draw the line? Is it okay to squash bugs I don't like? Would it be a ridiculous waste of our time to develop farming and harvesting techniques that reduce the suffering of plants? If we deploy such solutions for animals does that make eating meat better? If not having meat available causes humans to suffer is that worse? It all just seems so arbitrary. Personally I eat all sorts of things and try to source what I consume from the most conscientious suppliers I can find, but I'm not convinced going full vegan would make me a better person.

⬐ nefitty

It's not at all arbitrary. My starting position is that I want to be free of pain/suffering and I want to be able to pursue my desires and preferences. I take those as inherently good. I apply those internal truths to other living beings.

Plants, bacteria, etc don't feel pain, although they might have preferences for food, etc. Those beings, then, are not especially relevant to our ethical obligations viz a viz the experience of suffering.

A fish feels pain and exhibits distinct preferences. Therefore, we are obligated to respect its life by virtue of the inherent good of painlessness and autonomy. It is immoral to kill any living creature that fits that framework.

Finally, this does not mean that our moral obligations are cemented here. We may eventually learn that other living things have properties that require us to expand the scope of our ethical duties.

⬐ c22

It sounds like your moral framework would include bugs as sacrosanct as well? I do wonder, then, why you are so quick to dismiss the feelings of plants? I guess because they move in time-steps out of sync with your own? But if you take a shade-loving plant and put it in the direct sun it will turn its leaves away so they don't get burnt. If you stab a tree it will exude a coagulating sap and heal the damage with a scar. Plants have no immune system comparable to ours, but they still remember and respond differently to viruses they've been exposed to in the past. These actions are clearly in response to the environment. Since my own pain-avoidance and healing actions are very similar and also in response to the environment I consider this evidence that a chemical analog of my pain response must be occurring in plants, however alien the experience may be to me as a mammal. Whatever plants feel, there are other moral issues surrounding the food chain that cannot be solved by simply adopting a plant-based diet. I think it is more arbitrary than you are willing to imply.

⬐ goldenkey

Lidocaine works on plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochemical_gradient

Changes in bioelectric signals trigger formation of new organs: Tadpoles made to grow eyes in back, tail: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111207175740.h...

Like the other commenter below you says: you anthropromorphize and project lowlyness onto the other lifeforms because they lack nervous systems - because they aren't you. A nervous system isn't necessary for consciousness and feeling. What's more vital is information pathways. And plants have plenty of that. We do too as evident by how changing these electrochemical pathways alters our biology.

⬐ sdwr

I don't think plants can feel pain. To me, pain is tied to learning and agency. Theres little to nothing a plant can learn from/ change upon being eaten, so why would they be able to feel it?

I bet plants get some version of depression though.

⬐ goldenkey

Plants literally produce nicotine, caffeine, mescaline, and other chemical insecticides to thwart off predation... Lidocaine literally works on plants because all living organisms have electrical gradients and ion channels regardless of whether or not a nervous system exists.

Plants have a consciousness, it's just not the same as yours or mine. We shouldn't be eating animals or plants, we should be eating pollen, wax, and nectar - seeds and fruit. This would be true permaculture without any reaping or sowing of any life.

I literally own a startup dedicated to this futuristic goal. You can email me if you are interested in Roylent.

The least we can do at the current moment is to not torture animals for food. That can be agreed on regardless of one's views and understandings about information, computation, and consciousness.

⬐ pphysch

What about bacteria and bugs?

⬐ goldenkey

What about them?

⬐ pphysch

Does your flavor of permaculture actively preserve their lives?

⬐ goldenkey

Yes

⬐ pphysch

How so? How do you avoid crushing them?

⬐ goldenkey

Drones.

⬐ pphysch

Plants learn and have agency [1]. It just takes a bit more patience to observe.

[1] - https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/commentary-plant-neuro...

⬐ sdwr

Wow! Those stalks almost look like tentacles!

⬐ goldenkey

Amazing, his recent comment appears to indicate that he does have sentience after all! He almost looks like a _______. But of course he's just a lowly human. ;-)

⬐ uDontKnowMe

Unfortunately even if you only cared about plants, you would still be better off on a vegan diet because animal agriculture requires order(s) of magnitude more plants to be cultivated than a vegan diet would, on account of it taking many calories of plant feed to produce a calorie of meat.

⬐ pphysch

But killing non-"sentient" beings is not. IMO it's a vacuous and ridiculous distinction that only distracts us from living sustainably within our environments.

⬐ nefitty

I'm not sure what your criticism is. There is no way to describe a sentient being without those two words. A sentient?

I think it is naive to believe anyone can live a perfectly moral life. The difficulty of the project doesn't mean we should delude ourselves about our choices and actions.

I commend anyone who acts. Even reducing meat consumption to only six days a week, or what have you, is praiseworthy. I give myself, and others, no quarter when it comes to ethical living. I don't hesitate to admit that I fall woefully short of sainthood.

⬐ pphysch

My criticism is that saying one branch of the tree of life deserves freedom from harm, and the rest don't deserve the same rights, is totally ridiculous.

⬐ nefitty

That's not an argument. Sentient beings can feel pain and have preferences. Killing them involves acting counter to at least one of those facts.

⬐ pphysch

Plants are sentient.

⬐ goldenkey

They also ice bath the lobster/ fish first to numb it. I see the sardonic humor though :-)

I sincerely doubt moving is ripe for "disruption". Moving is all about managing the humans. That doesn't scale and isn't affected by technology. The biggest problem is making sure that NONE of the humans involved in the process suck.

Graebel has moved me every single time I have had to move across the US. They have moved me almost a dozen times. The packers and unpackers showed up somewhere between 30 minutes to an hour early. They will pack and inventory your entire house--in no more than 2 days. The truck driver will load in no more than a day, and generally about half of one. The truck driver will beat you to your destination if you dawdle at all. They will unpack at destination, and put it in your cupboards and closets if you are there to direct them. The packing will be amazing and everything will get there with no broken pieces. And, to this day, I am convinced that the single box that disappeared was my fault somehow. And Graebel handled everything when something went wrong--packer missing? another guy dispatched within an hour. Big rig can't get into complex? Small relay truck dispatched immediately. Truck broke down--another one dispatched transparently to grab the load and keep it moving. Trucker got in early--truck unloaded into storage and delivered on smaller rig.

This has cost me somewhere around $5K-$6K each time--Graebel would have definitely charged more if they thought they could get away with it (they should have--I would have paid it). You are talking easily 125 man-hours or more. That's about $40-$48 an hour if everything went to labor and the truck driver--and it doesn't. You have all of the people in the offices coordinating everything, you have all the fleet and logistics management as well as storage spaces. I suspect that people are probably around $20/hour or less when all is said and done.

I have had HORDES of people with moving horror stories, and yet I had never had one. Apparently, Graebel was so much better than the rest of the industry that it prevented this.

And yet the old Graebel is no more--I have no idea who to call the next time I have to move. Apparently people would rather have their stuff broken and stolen rather than pay the people handling your valuables enough to avoid the problem.

This is just like the airlines. People claim to be unhappy, but when push comes to shove, they're such cheap bastards that they'll buy the $10 cheaper ticket and either get nickle and dimed to death or get treated like sardines in a tin can.

Edit: The US HAD a moving company like the Japanese one below. And it went under because Americans are too fscking cheap.

(Video link courtesy of thinkingkong elsewhere in thread) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynEjnebw8LA

⬐ Kihashi

$5-6K for a move is a pretty substantial amount of money. In addition to paying the first month's rent + deposit that is the norm in a lot of places- I doubt most people can afford that level of service. I don't think it's because "they're such cheap bastards".

⬐ bsder

> $5-6K for a move is a pretty substantial amount of money.

No argument, but that's probably the lower bound for competence. If you aren't willing to pay that, congratulations, you have decided to do everything yourself. As I pointed out, there are a LOT of man-hours involved in moving and the employees involved are probably around $20/hour. That's a bit above the $15/hour wage that seems to denote above average competence (Target and Costco are both at $15/hour minimum--Costco goes up from there).

As for that $5K, you can pay it in cash; you can pay it in time; you can pay it in grief. Choose your currency.

⬐ ghaff

I assume in a lot of cases, people using professional movers are doing so as part of company paid relocation. At least that used to be the case. I have no idea what the norm is today. And company relocation people are going to be looking for the cheap options.

⬐ agumonkey

> Americans are too fucking cheap.

Americans or most westerners ?

A lot of fields have become sad due to competing race to the bottom. People "today?" are too deeply wired to pick the cheapest, the market will reflect that.

⬐ stevenicr

Interesting viewpoints. Got me thinking for a bit;

I think it's so much people are cheap cheap, as pretty much since 2008 most people are not stacking up lots of extra cash, they just have less money.

On top of that, I've seen articles where there is so much 'heirloom furniture' being gifted / inherited and most people don't want it, don't have the space for it and don't want to pay to store it, that goodwills around the country are being over flooded with it.

I've definitely seen trends where many people are buying cheaper, more disposable furniture, clothes, and everything. I'd hazard a guess that many people moving these days would have enough space in a rental car for their cherished / valuable stuff - and all the rest would not be worth six thousand to re-buy, much less the hassle of packing and unpacking and risks associated with that for six grand.

I did not think about these things in this way in the 90s, early 00s.

The Japanese have moving down to a science. Id normally be reluctant to post any youtube links[1] here but this is an excellent overview.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynEjnebw8LA

⬐ HenryBemis

I thought of the same exact video (they got the service for free in return for the video/promo/shout-out).

I have watched most episodes of Shark Tank. I remember than when a 'pitcher' starts with the phrase "XYZ industry is a $$$$ billion business in the U.S., look like an upcoming target for disruption", the sharks start rolling their eyes. That person usually doesn't get the funding.

> As we've reported, Americans are generally moving less

We (the people not living in the USA) think that USA residents buy and sell houses 'frequently'. Buy --> wait --> price goes up --> sell --> buy the next house.

I think that a critical contribution to moving less is the financial crisis 2008-2018 it would make sense that people were stuck to the houses they bought, unable to perform the aforementioned loop, thus moving less.

⬐ chatmasta

It's not just people who own houses that have to move between them. Most millennials haven't even bought a house yet. But they still need to move between apartments, and that happens on more frequent time scales than someone buying/selling their home. If I had to guess, the average lease in a city for 20-30 year old tenants is between 1 and 3 years. It's not uncommon to move three times in a five year period.

⬐ ghaff

Part of it is that, if you're single and renting, you're probably more likely to move closer to a new job to avoid even a relatively modest increase in commute time. Whereas, if you own a place--especially if there are other considerations like a partner or kids--you'll likely just suck up a longer commute to stay where you are.

⬐ alexwasserman

Having moved in the US several times, this looks like more like the difference between good movers and bad, regardless of country.

I've used the pack and move services in the US, and they came a week or two before to review and get an idea of the work then book a date. This meant they arrived with the correct number of men, trucks, and packing equipment. Specialist boxes for TVs, crockery, wardrobes, etc.

They packed everything (including everything in the fridge, bathrooms, etc). Even the years-old pickle jars at the back of the fridge, old bars of soap by the guest sinks, etc were carefully wrapped and packed.

The guys doing the job were incredible about moving heavy, complex furniture quickly, and efficiently. This included a couple of large (>100g) saltwater fishtanks. They broke it all down and put it back together with minimal oversight.

I've found movers typically offer a range of services - the full (pack, move, unpack), or just pack and move, or just move.

⬐ vonnieda

Can you name some companies you've had good experiences with? I'd like to do this for my next move but all I read is horror stories of people's stuff getting held hostage or just lost in the desert.

⬐ alexwasserman

In NYC Schleppers were really good - used them twice, would use them again, if I was in their area.

I used United for my last move, who were also good.

⬐ yurishimo

Can I ask how much you paid for services like this? I absolutely hate moving and have a few years to save up before I’ll need to move again and would love to pay someone to just handle all of it.

⬐ alexwasserman

Cost is heavily dependent on the size of the move. The boxes and paper are actually a pretty large faction of the cost.

I was a while back, but moving a 1 bed apartment was $1-2K, I think.

5 bed house was roughly $7K to move 100 miles.

⬐ wirrbel

My employer sponsored our last move, including packing and unpacking. The staff was really great, careful and we had hardly things that broke. A few plants lost leaves (but basically these were excluded from the contract by my employer, so the company kindly offered to move the plants without any guarantees, I guess packing them better would have been time consuming and thats what my employer didn't want to pay for).

A colleague hired the very same company for their move (they had bought a house, so it was not part of an agreement for starting a new work contract).

They sent a team of workers, no one spoke more than a few words of German (my coworker is a kind and open-minded person, he was surely not exaggerating). A lot of things didn't make the trip as a whole. All losses were covered by the companies insurance, but it was a pain making all the claims.

⬐ rwmj

Ah Japan ... and excess packaging.

I was just there and I managed to get an item which was triple wrapped: It was a small tray which came wrapped in cellophane already, which the shopkeeper (very beautifully) wrapped in a paper bag and then put the whole thing in a plastic bag before handing it to me.

I didn't beat triple wrapped anywhere else, but 7-11 did sell me an "eco bag" which they wrapped in a plastic bag for me, before I had time and the presence of mind to tell them I didn't need the "fukuro" (plastic bag).

⬐ mykowebhn

I noticed the same thing. Japanese items are among the most beautifully packaged in the world I find, though the waste always troubles me.

⬐ foobarbazetc

Japan does a really good job at recycling plastic. Not sure about other materials:

https://earth911.com/general/plastics-recycling-rate-hits-77...

⬐ rwmj

It does a good job of collecting plastic, actual recycling of it not so much: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-45400514/what-reall...

⬐ blattimwind

> This isn't a sponsored video... but we are getting our move for free

⬐ zeeZ

From an earlier video [0]:

"We asked our agency if they could find a moving company that would give us permission to film. They did one better and found a moving company we have permission to film AND they're moving our stuff for free. They're the most famous/popular moving company in Japan."

[0]: https://youtu.be/90ujbJdRKXI?t=20m (20 minutes in)

⬐ larkeith

I understood that as the company offered to do the move for free after they requested to film, whereas a sponsored video would usually involve the company approaching them.

⬐ SiempreViernes

That is not really the important distinction, the crucial fact is rather if they paid for the service they are showing to their large audience or not.

⬐ larkeith

That argument goes both ways though - they crucial fact is that they disclosed up-front whether they paid for the service.

⬐ SiempreViernes

It is up to debate if their disclosure was adequate, but to title a video ”we hired a company” and insist it isn’t a sponsored video, only to then reveal they did in fact not have to pay is not up-front.

⬐ x2f10

This invalidates the entire video IMO. Of course companies will go the extra mile (with extra smiles) for a PR stunt.

⬐ ranie93

I imagine the expectation here is that the youtubers are not under any obligation to provide a positive review, or perhaps any review at all. The company is so sure of the quality of their service that they know they will get positive PR from the video.

⬐ legohead

perhaps, but at least in the US [1] (and YouTube guidelines [2]), you cannot receive something like this for free and not specifically call it out.

[1] : https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftc...

[2] : https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/154235?hl=en

⬐ woodrowbarlow

right. so they called it out.

⬐ ranie93

Thanks for sharing, thats very useful information. I hope youtubers are familiar with this info!

I think this is the relevant part for this scenario:

>I have a YouTube channel that focuses on hunting, camping, and the outdoors. Sometimes I’ll do a product review. Knife manufacturers know how much I love knives, so they send me knives as free gifts, hoping that I will review them. I’m under no obligation to talk about any knife and getting the knives as gifts really doesn’t affect my judgment. Do I need to disclose when I’m talking about a knife I got for free?

>Even if you don’t think it affects your evaluation of the product, what matters is whether knowing that you got the knife for free might affect how your audience views what you say about the knife. It doesn’t matter that you aren’t required to review every knife you receive. Your viewers may assess your review differently if they knew you got the knife for free, so we advise disclosing that fact.

In this case the youtubers in the OP did disclose that they got the service for free in the video. Perhaps they should have mentioned the fact in writing in the video description/pinned comment as well.

⬐ dsr_

If you get to keep the knife afterwards, yes. The knife is worth something, right?

If they ship you a knife on loan, and you have to give it back in a reasonable period of time, then generally no.

Ars Technica, for example, notes when a car manufacturer gives them airfare or accomodations. Obviously they don't get to keep the car, but they still received value.

⬐ who-knows95

"In addition, the Guides say, if there’s a connection between an endorser and the marketer that consumers would not expect and it would affect how consumers evaluate the endorsement, that connection should be disclosed. For example, if an ad features an endorser who’s a relative or employee of the marketer, the ad is misleading unless the connection is made clear. The same is usually true if the endorser has been paid or given something of value to tout the product. The reason is obvious: Knowing about the connection is important information for anyone evaluating the endorsement."

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftc...

⬐ mykowebhn

Just wanted to mention that the creators of this channel, Rachel & Jun, have one of the most beautifully filmed cooking channels on Youtube, Jun's Kitchen.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JunsKitchen

⬐ notyourwork

Thank you for mentioning this, I just watched a few videos and they are quite fantastic. Was not expecting to find quality entertainment like this from a moving article.

⬐ ddeokbokki

I knew the cats looked familiar..

⬐ None

None

⬐ nyxxie

Unrelated, but I really enjoy this trend of people disclosing potential conflicts of interest relating to sponsoring at the beginning of a show or video like they did here. It’s so refreshingly honest and respectful of my natural distaste for being shown propaganda.

⬐ mslev

AFAIK many times it's a requirement of the platform/sponsor/etc that it must be disclosed. I appreciate it as well.

⬐ cdiamand

I worked in a family moving business growing up (and continue to pick up the odd job when I'm home). I've worked with various other moving companies as well.

I have to say that the quality of this move was unreal by American standards.

I was extremely impressed that they are able to employ staff solely dedicated to arranging the home. I'm still trying to work out how they are able to use a crew that large and keep things economical.

There were also several pieces of packing material I hadn't seen before. Some of which looked reusable, which is a good thing to see. There is a fair amount of waste in the profession.

⬐ cannonedhamster

They use economy of scale. They have a large crew so that they can get more moves done in a single day. Keep in mind most people in Japan live within the same metro region, so there's a larger economy of scale.

⬐ syntaxing

So...does anyone have any tips to find a good mover like this in the US? I hear horror stories on how some movers will hold your stuff "hostage" until you tip them. I don't mind paying, but I just want a trustworthy mover.

⬐ dsfyu404ed

Uhaul and a local company to pack/unpack if needed. Nobody will be more careful with your stuff than you will.

edit: Why is this down-voted?

⬐ daphneokeefe

I have done this several times, moving cross-country via U-Haul. It's easy enough to drive the trucks, even with your car on a trailer behind it. I hire loaders/unloaders based on reviews. You can really save a lot of money doing it yourself, and it's prudent to hire professionals to do the heavy lifting.

Sure, you can run into problems and have a bad experience this way. But the movers my company paid for didn't do such a great job either. On the other hand, the guys the Army sent were amazing.

I have a toy U-Haul truck on my bookcase, because wanderlust.

⬐ User23

I had one try to raise the price by about 10% after they had my items. It was an interstate move and the company I had contracted with and that was named for loading, transport, and unloading on the bill of lading sold the job to another mover. I guess this is pretty common, but it's also pretty illegal. Without a valid bill of lading they are in possession of stolen property. I told them so and asked if they wanted to involve the police and the DoT. They unloaded my things then.

It's one of the rare occasions I've stiffed someone on the tip. If attempted theft and extortion isn't a reason to reduce a tip, nothing is.

⬐ ksec

Didn't have time to watch all of it. But did they mention how much does it cost in Japan?

I really like the idea they could help you buy Appliance through them along with delivery and installation. Assuming you are not picky with Appliances ( Japanese Home Appliance are one of the best in the world. ) and they have a wide selection, if saves you tons of hassle. Not only that they help you throw away your old stuff, knowing the Japanese, those will likely get recycles or properly disposed instead of being dumped somewhere.

⬐ gadders

The wardrobe cartoons at 9m32s are pretty common in the UK, or at least were when I had a student job as a removal man nearly 30 years ago.

⬐ _nalply

I also know them. A mover told me that he once had a client who filled them with books!

⬐ jacobush

I was anxious to know what kind of subgenre of anime (cartoons) I was going to see!

⬐ rtkwe

Here in the US too [0]. There's a lot of specialized boxes available for packing and moving many people don't bother with either because of price or they don't know about it.

[0] https://www.uhaul.com/MovingSupplies/Boxes/Clothing-Moving-B...

⬐ saalweachter

Which brings me to the PSA: Your books go in book boxes (1 foot cubes).

Do not put your books in small boxes. Do not put your books in medium boxes. For the love of god, do not put your books in large boxes.

Yes, if you have a lot of books you'll end up with 50 or 100 book boxes. No, that's a good thing.

⬐ rtkwe

Heh, yeah just moved ~2 years ago and some of the heaviest boxes were from our book cases even using the small boxes.

edit: small here meaning 1.5 ft^3.

⬐ paulcarroty

I stopped to buy paper books ~10 years ago, and it was great decision.

⬐ gadders

When I started I managed to fill a large box up with books.

Experienced Mover (eyeing large box): What have you put in there?

Newbie Me: Books

Experienced Mover: You can fucking carry that one then.

⬐ _pmf_

The decision to hire a (non-Japanese) moving company for moving our 4 person household has been the best service investment I ever did. Included tearing down and rebuilding every piece of large furniture and the kitchen including appliances and plumbing. I would have been busy for at least two weeks. 2000 EUR. Unbelievable to watch.

⬐ kemiller2002

I agree. Never again will I move myself. What most people don't realize (and I include myself at the time) is that they really are pros at getting stuff in and out of places. They know how to rotate couches around tight corners and are very good at assembling furniture, because they do it so much. They also have the right tools to lift things which the average person does not. It's completely worth the investment.

⬐ tzs

If the move is not long distance, it may be possible to mix do it yourself and using a moving company, which can save a lot of money but spare you dealing with the hard things.

When I moved from an apartment to a house, the house was between my apartment and my office and I had a couple weeks where I owned the house but was still living in the apartment.

Each night after work, I'd pack 2 or 3 small boxes and load them into my car. Then on the way to work the next day I'd stop by the house and unload the boxes.

By the time the moving company came, all that was left for them to move was furniture and a 61" DLP TV. The cost, which had been estimated at $1500 when it included moving all my stuff, ended up being $150.

⬐ nkrisc

Did the same, 100% worth it. For about one month we had the new home while on the last month of our lease. The money we saved in movers probably more than paid for the last month of rent. We moved everything one car load at a time each evening over the course of a week except for all the large pieces of furniture. We hired movers for what ended up being a pretty small job of about 6 large pieces of furniture and a few odds and ends left over.

⬐ bitwize

I'm in a conundrum where I don't drive, so can't drive a U-Haul and it would be tedious and take days to move even boxes full of small things to the new place. So I have to rely on moving services entirely in order to move. Usually, though, I pack as much stuff as I can beforehand so all they have to do is put it in the truck.

I saved a bit of money this way, but not much.

⬐ kemiller2002

That's a good call. When I moved the last time which was years ago, we didn't have a whole lot of stuff. It was pretty much, "this is the minimum and you don't have enough stuff to meet it." So we paid them to move everything. It did help that they were really really efficient which is why we paid the smallest amount.

⬐ skj

huh... I've done a fair amount of home buying and selling, and I've never heard of taking the appliances with you. By plumbing, do you mean toilet? Does the buyer just expect to bring their own toilet from the last house? What a lot of effort.

⬐ asteli

I know that, in Germany at least, it's common to take appliances with you when you move. Not sure where in Europe GP is reporting in from precisely.

⬐ atomwaffel

Yes, this is one of the great German mysteries. Flats are often rented with a completely empty kitchen. The expectation is that you bring not just your own appliances but also your own furniture and take them with you when you move out. This is exactly as inconvenient as it sounds.

⬐ plopz

Not mention that stuff might not fit their new house, both physically and visually. Its certainly not a common practice where I live in the US.

⬐ robocat

At one point in the video they are getting an air-conditioner/heat-pump installed...

⬐ masklinn

I'd guess dishwasher and washing machine, appliances which have to be disconnected from and connected back to water inlets and outlets.

⬐ vonmoltke

> the kitchen including ... plumbing

Plumbing? Doesn't that usually stay with the house?

⬐ blattimwind

Pretty sure he means connecting the appliances to the water and sewage lines. I've never heard of anyone taking their toilet or shower with them ;)

⬐ barkingcat

Appliances and plumbing - usually that means dishwasher, remove and reinstall, etc

⬐ stronglikedan

Even appliances usually stay with the house, IME.

⬐ mrkstu

Built ins are expected to stay- freestanding things like refrigerators and washer/dryers are usually negotiable. We just replaced our built in oven/burners with a slide out one and not sure what the expectation will be with that one...

⬐ asteli

That's not a universal expectation. In Germany for example, it's typical to furnish your own appliances and to take them when you move.

⬐ wccrawford

My wife and I recently moved to the next block in our neighborhood and reluctantly decided to hire a moving company, even though we could walk the distance in 5 minutes.

It was more expensive and time-consuming that we initially expected, but in the end we were very glad we did it. Even packing 90% of it ourselves, the movers still packed a ton and did a great job moving it... Especially up the interior stairs at the new location.

I don't think I'll ever even consider moving my stuff myself again.

Like the people in this video, there were some things we moved ourselves, such as the TV and computer. I doubt I'll ever change that.

⬐ xutopia

I wonder how much such a service costs. It's really impressive how much attention they put into everything.

⬐ _ah

Reminds me of this great article posted ~18 months ago about high end professional movers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310849 (https://longreads.com/2017/09/21/a-high-end-mover-dishes-on-...)

⬐ kazuki

Wow. I moved within Japan couple of times but never had a chance to use such excellent service. I'd always go with cheap option that required me to pack everything beforehand so workers just come pick up and carry them to the new place. Packing/Unpacking service seems very convenient.

⬐ stunt

After watching the video, I came to ask how is it related to HN? But, look at the comments! I guess there are some interests!

⬐ odiroot

Are these socket in the ceiling some universal/standard for all lamps in Japanese? If so this is simply ingenious.

⬐ SapporoChris

I can't say if they're universal, but they are definately standard. In my apartment the main rooms have them, basically anywhere a central ceiling light would be placed. Areas like kitchen,bathroom and entrance have recessed lighting with Edison screw bases for the lightbulbs.

It was fairly dark in the first few days in my unfurnished apartment until my light fixtures arrived.

I've noticed the same type lighting in four 'furnished' apartments I previously stayed in.

⬐ Markoff

i was more surprised why would anyone move ceiling light? it looks very odd, i consider it part of apartment and would never think about moving it unless it is some expensive smart light, though the one in video seem quite generic

⬐ aznpwnzor

people here complaining about the wasted packaging. EOD accounting probably will still show it is net waste, but remember that Japanese people will reuse and repair everything.

They will actually consider the first 2 R's much more than Americans do.

⬐ WrtCdEvrydy

> first 2 R's much more than Americans do

Never heard this one before.

⬐ robocat

> Japanese people will reuse and repair everything

Maybe for small items. Counterpoint:

1. in the video they got new whitewear (would their old whitewear get sold second hand? Feels unlikely.)

2. "Raze, rebuild, repeat: why Japan knocks down its houses after 30 years" https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusabl...

⬐ cannonedhamster

Japan has an excellent number of second hand stores for many household and personal items.

⬐ pier25

As someone that recently moved a couple thousand miles... This is... perfection.

⬐ solarkraft

My response to that title is simply: Ok?

Why would I care? What's special? If I'm in Canada I'll hire a Canadian moving company. Since you hired a Japanese one, I'll assume you're in Japan. Sure. Okay. You're probably moving.

⬐ sctb

Even though it frequently seems that way, this isn't a title discussion site. Would you mind holding off until you're ready to post something thoughtful and informative?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ dougk16

I was a professional mover for a number of years in a wealthy area in the US (Fairfield County, CT), so moving people from McMansion to McMansion, back and forth between Manhattan, etc. People movin' on up, and sometimes way way down. All their "priceless" stuff.

Best job I ever had, lots of skill involved. I ponder starting my own company sometimes. Great tips, lots of free stuff, new faces everyday, great workout. I could write a sitcom from all the crazy stories. You get a deep glimpse into people's lives. Imagine rooting around people's attics, digging into forgotten closets. Very stressful and emotional for lots of people as well, leaving houses they've been in for 40 years, divorces, foreclosures, you name it. I started as a grunt and eventually helped pack trucks here and there after a few years. A more strategic, infinitely variable form of 3d Tetris. Furniture moving is one of those unexpectedly "deep" jobs that can be done passably by some college kids and a truck when you're moving out of your first crappy rental, but has a true logistical slant to it when grand pianos and sculptures are involved.

Anyway I have no cultural Japanese basis to look at this from, but they used a ton of disposable packaging. Looks like a lot of unnecessary flash and sizzle in general, e.g. using tablets when a notepad and shorthand is plenty enough to do such estimates. "Protecting" the walls it looks like? Not necessary and would only prevent the most superficial dings, which we would have patched up in the rare event we dinged a wall anyway. That looked like a 2-3 person one day job as well (packing, loading, delivering, and home early) and they looked to have 5-6 people working there. I thought our approaches were pretty wasteful but in comparison it was mostly the bare minimum tape and boxes and wrapping paper. We used furniture blankets/pads much more liberally. All kinds of "origami"-type wrapping techniques (ironically?).

Not to hate! Just noting some cultural differences perhaps.

⬐ mstade

I used to work as a stagehand for one of the major event companies (mostly big name concerts) before I started my professional career. Not the same as moving obviously, but can definitely relate to your description of an infinitely variable 3D Tetris. It was also great fun, you got to see lots of great concerts for free, meet a lot of cool people (sorry Lenny Kravitz for that time I ran into you with my bike!) and a fair bit of running around and lifting meant a decent workout as well. It was dirty, sweaty, didn't pay much, and the hours were terrible at times. I think my worst (in terms of hours) weekend was coming in on Friday early afternoon, and leaving again right around midnight Saturday. We did get breaks of course but I had a two hour commute at the time so if I'd gone home in between packing up one show and unpacking another I would've slept for only four hours or so. I ended up sleeping on some old carpet rolls in the catacombs under the arena. It wasn't comfortable and I wouldn't do it today, but man I had fun doing that stuff back then. Only did it for about a year and it was hard work, but still kinda miss it.

⬐ mdekkers

I used to work as a stagehand for one of the major event companies

ex-lampie here, good to see I am not the only one. I went in IT to have better working hours and less stress, that was a rude surprise.

⬐ mstade

Hah, I hear ya buddy! :o)

My hours are better these days, but man the stress...

⬐ CobrastanJorji

Say, I wonder if, for a moving company, there's a niche software product for entering in a count of boxes of various sizes and getting back an optimal stacking plan. I suspect not, since experienced employees already seem quite good at using most of the space, so the gains would likely be minimal.

⬐ cannonedhamster

This is apparently a larger company. While the software may help, I suspect that it still relies heavily on the expertise of the agent. Japanese do enjoy the exactness that comes from computer software and this may also help with inventory management and making sure the correct number of boxes are always available in the warehouse. Again these are logistics issues larger companies would run into that smaller companies wouldn't necessarily run into.

⬐ slowmovintarget

Cat algorithm: If I fits, I sits. (That is packing estimated by volume). It's not an easy problem, and some of the closest approximations we've come up with involve ... well, lots of virtual cats in virtual boxes.

⬐ mstade

It’s not as simple as just volume though, it’s also about weight distribution and the order in which the various bits are needed etc. Trusses are packed last, so they can be unpacked and built first; instruments and costumes are packed first. Typically things are also packed into different designated trucks because some things really can’t be lost (one of a kind instruments for instance) whereas others are more easily replaced (lights, trusses, amps, etc.)

Before a tour is initiated, experienced tour managers and roadies will work out plans and schedules for all theses things. My first gig as a stage hand was working a Destiny’s Child concert. The way I got the job is I was at a concert the weekend before, saw the stage hands and roadies working and though “that seems fun” so he next day I called the event company that managed it all. They gave me the number for the manager of all major events, who said I could come in the following day. I figured for an interview, but he meant to work. I signed some papers, got a 30 min or so rundown of what I was going to do and who was to be my primary contact for assistance, and then I was given a schedule and detailed instructions. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing walking into it, but at the end of the night as we were tearing everything down and packing it up for the next stop on the tour, I realized not once had I stopped to wonder what the hell I was supposed to do. It was the most well oiled operation I’ve ever seen, and his goes for all the major events I worked – particularly the American shows were stringent beyond belief. There was never a doubt as to what had to be done, and when. Roles were clear, assignments were handed out and schematics of everything were available. Everything was marked with colors, letters, and numbers and there was a legend you had to memorize before things came in. There was always a system so you could tell what part goes into which box and into which truck and in what order. All of this was prepared long before a tour started, nothing happened Just In Time, it’s pretty much all AOT. (Except for a few artist rider requirements, like Ozzy Osborne requiring something like 20 bars of moisturizing hand soap.)

I’d say if there’s a program to be written that compiles these packing manifests, schedules, and instructions, it’s a constraints solver. It’s all prepared ahead of time, and honestly most of the job anyway is figuring out all those constraints in the first place. The actual compilation isn’t that tricky, it mostly comes down to experience and a bit of trial and error – i.e. is this thing gonna fit there if we also put that there, and will they move when on a bumpy road or on a flight?

I honestly think it’s one of those few jobs that aren’t really helped much by technology, but mostly by experience. I mostly worked shows that had already been planned, but did a few sessions with managers that tried to work out how to pack the show. Those were mostly a waiting game to see what the current plan was, test it and then evaluate. Testing meant packing up a show, and then unpacking and building it back up. It was timed, and we noted things that were trickier than they had to be. If there ever was an issue where you thought “they’ll figure it out on the road” or “it’s someone else’s problem” you knew to flag it, and then they had to reconsider and they did. I have heard horror stories of bad managers, but I always worked with good ones that took the time to listen and care to fix things. In the end, a minute aged is a minute earned, and venues and workers are expensive so tours really wants things to be as efficient as possible.

⬐ kayfox

Speaking about the theatrical and rock concert industry...

In some ways the cases are standardized around being a quarter, third or half the width of a semi trailer inside width in some dimensions. So once its in a case its usually okay.

Typically the cases are packed in layers based on depth and with, so if you have a set of thirds cases, they will go in a layer, if you have a cases with some odd depth, they will tend to go together. The weight of things is taken into account as well, heavy stuff tends to get packed towards the sides, near load bars (metal bars that keep the load from shifting) or the front sometimes. There are sometimes considerations for how it gets from the truck to the ground, because sometimes you get somewhere and theres no dock, or your in a smaller truck with a gate. So forklifing things is common.

What goes into each case is a complicated subject. Some cases are just full of all cables of some type, or full of lights or speakers. Sometimes a case will be built around being a kit for something, or around "this is everything that goes to Greenroom x". And you have an assortment of special cases, TVs, stuff like that.

You also sometimes have to consider who opens and sets up whats in a case, so rigging gear will need to be kept separate from audio gear, since those may be setup by different teams or different unions, even if that gear goes together when the show is setup.

Odd sized cases and loose stuff is often packed on top or "rides on top" of larger roadcases in the truck. Often this stuff is moved from the truck onto cases before its moved into the building, since pushing a case with some extras on top is not as hard as carrying the stuff all the way in. Sometimes carts are used, not as often as I would have hoped.

In many venues the people who move the cases from the show area (arena floor, stage, etc) are a separate team or separate union. If you start out in IATSE, the stagehands union in the US and Canada, you will often start by pushing boxes and generally doing physical work.

But at the end of the day the truck is loaded by weight, so theres often tons of volume left over when the truck is "full" as its now at its max weight.

⬐ CobrastanJorji

That was a super neat read, thanks.

It also reminded me of a weird life moment for me. I was moving once, and I was watching the senior moving guy dictating how the boxes should be arranged in the truck, and I said "wow, you must be amazing at Tetris," and he replied, "you know, everyone tells me that. What the hell is Tetris?"

⬐ zackmorris

Funny, I moved furniture at a warehouse for about 3 years from 2001-2003 and it was by far the worst job I've ever had (by an order of magnitude) but, it made me who I am today. This is basically what I did (step 6 is comedy gold):

https://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Lumper

The sheer brutality of doing something you don't really want to do, for up to 9 or 10 hours a day, sometimes 6 or 7 days a week, causes physiological changes in the body. For example, by the end of it (something like 500 moves) I was completely flat-footed (my arches fully recovered eventually) and no longer distinguished between hot or cold weather. A 110 degree day didn't really feel any different than a 10 degree day, I just wore different layers. I could pick up an overstuffed chair and haul it up several flights of stairs, but felt a tremendous indignation if I had to bend over to pick up a stuffed animal.

For a while I came up with what felt like one new invention a day that would alleviate much of the physical labor and danger from the job. Pretty much everyone just scoffed at them though, because moving furniture is generally a job you walk on to, not a job that you improve or automate.

So this video was very refreshing to me, to see some of the most basic techniques, like padding the entryway to prevent damage, actually being applied.

⬐ rabboRubble

Japanese apartments are a tighter fit than you'd find in most US homes and apartments. The guys are careful, but that wall protection is there often to allow for intentional rubbing on the way in and out. I really appreciated that attention to detail.

Edit: also remembered, some of the protection is also noise abatement for the neighbors. Soft padding to absorb the noise.

Edit edit: also notice the moving guys aren't wearing their shoes inside. They are taking them off upon entry, carrying stuff (sometimes really heavy stuff) and putting their shoes back on when removing stuff. That's the part that shocked me.

⬐ dougk16

Yup we worked in a bunch of old colonials and attics and other ridiculous tight spaces that could compete I think. Also count the fact that American housing might be bigger, but so is all our stuff! There were a few times where a whole team of experienced guys could not for the life us figure out how a piece of furniture got into a room or how to get it back out.

The difference is that we would pad up the furniture itself if need be before humping it out, rather than the walls. We'd always eventually pad up the furniture but it's easier to do it on the truck. There are also techniques for literally using your fingers/hands/arms as padding between the wall and the piece you're moving. You can also always have a third guy holding some cardboard or padding against a wall or doorframe too for a tight squeeze. I didn't consider the cultural differences with the noise or shoes though, thanks for that!

⬐ grawprog

>also notice the moving guys aren't wearing their shoes inside. They are taking them off upon entry, carrying stuff (sometimes really heavy stuff) and putting their shoes back on when removing stuff. That's the part that shocked me.

I've worked granite installation. Some customers demanded we take off our shoes. It's terrifying carrying a piece of stone with someone that weighs several hundred pounds with nothing but socks on. It's also fun trying to get your shoes off while holding said piece of stone. Normally, we'd put it down on the steel toes if we neesed to. Can't do that while you're taking your shoes off. I hated those customers.

⬐ rabboRubble

The difference is that the Japanese guys are doing this without being asked. Removing shoes on entry is just the way it is done, regardless of the task apparently.

⬐ arthurofbabylon

Nice. I love the contrast you provide. Both approaches are optimizing for two different things - the way the methodology evolves around those ideals is interesting!

⬐ mdekkers

All their "priceless" stuff

Lovely attitude for someone handling other peoples' belongings.

⬐ dougk16

You may have skipped over the word "professional" without pause. It doesn't have much meaning nowadays so I don't blame you. Attitude has nothing to do with getting the job done as if it were my own belongings. As long as I'm getting paid that is! And hopes for a good tip didn't hurt either. :)

⬐ fatnoah

>Best job I ever had, lots of skill involved.

The neighbor across the street from my wife's parents was a mover. That job requires a mastery of physics and geometry, the strength of a weightlifter, and the endurance of a marathoner.

⬐ ranie93

I've read that the disposable packaging is actually reused/recycled so it may not be so wasteful. Tablets can be a pain to use, I agree. If the software is stable and with good/simple UI, I'd say the benefits (syncing/automatic plan generation/auditing/inventory) outweigh the inconveniences. As for the wall protectors, I'd say those are also filling the role of giving homeowners peace of mind. Sure I'd appreciate the ding in the wall getting patched (are you going to match the paint exactly as well?), but I'd prefer avoiding any scratch or ding all-together. Can't say too much about the number of people they have, perhaps their methodology is to do more work in parallel to increase their throughput.

⬐ dougk16

Thanks for your reply. I agree it's easy to judge unfairly from a few-minute video. I do wish I could have sat in a corner the whole day judging instead :)

We had to do the peace of mind thing a few times with certain clients. We would just roll our eyes and bump the bill. One client one time asked the lead that day if we could all bring in chairs one at a time to avoid scraping a narrow door frame, instead of a perfectly safe two-chair carry technique he just saw me execute but understandably looked a little risky. As he was asking the lead he must have sensed something cause he quickly turned around and caught me making a face. He made a point of giving everyone a big tip in private that day except me.

⬐ ido

I can sorta understand him - at a certain level of income and value (monetary or otherwise) of the furniture your increased wage might have been trivial compared to even a slight reduction in the risk of damage.