HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Most people would be unequivocally against slave concentration camps. Do not confuse lack of action with lack of caring.

Effective action may require collective action. But individually, most people care. Yet, collectively, they cannot seem to do anything meaningful. You are making a statement that is the definition of an ecological fallacy [0]

The article you pointed out is hardly balanced. The access of journalists is heavily restricted. Naturally, any information that comes out from a standard news outlet with government sanctioned offices like Associated Press will sound like government propaganda. CCP will not let AP have access to any information that counters the narrative of the propaganda.

For a different take on things, and an outlet that does journalism differently without official representation with CCP, have a look at this piece from VICE [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

⬐ trasz

>Most people would be unequivocally against slave concentration camps.

When they exist. We know they exist in the US (private prisons), but there are no reliable sources that confirm they still exist in China.

⬐ design-material

There are numerous reliable sources that have confirmed the existence of Chinese Concentration Camps.

Whether you dismiss them is up to you, but the fact remains that numerous sources have reported on the existence of Chinese Concentration Camps.

⬐ vorpalhex

We have satellite photos, eye witness testimony and even the Chinese government admits the facilities are there but has some nonsense about the people there choosing to be in a barbed wire facility with armed guards.

Are you really suggesting keeping criminals who have had a trial and been found guilty by a jury of their peers is at all the same as a genocidal racial based campaign to remove an ethnic minority?

[1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps

[2] - https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/02/asia/xinjiang-china-...

[3] - https://www.rand.org/blog/rand-review/2021/04/chinas-disappe...

[4] - https://2017-2021.state.gov/ccpabuses

[5] - https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/chinas-repression-uyghurs-x...

⬐ trasz

I'm sorry, but your state media lied to you again: nobody is claiming those institutions don't exist. They do exist - and they are mostly similar to western youth correctional facilities. (Except in China you can't get imprisoned there simply because you wealthy parents wish so - differently from the US, where the "troubled teen camps" are a proper industry.)

⬐ vorpalhex

Sure, every country on earth keeps their ethnic minorities in a barbed wire facility where they can't leave and are kept under watch by armed guards. Yes, very normal. Nothing to see here. Ignore the DOZENS of facilities with tens of thousands of inmates who have stories of forced sterilization.

⬐ trasz

This description matches American prisons pretty well. Of course US puts many more people there.

⬐ 1024core

You most likely don't care, but if you want to be educated, here are some Vice documentaries: https://www.vice.com/en/topic/uighur

⬐ network2592

Parent comment may not care. But just wanted to thank you for the link. Had just seen one documentary piece on VICE. I was not aware of these other pieces.

⬐ trasz

Lol, what? You literally shilled in 20 different comments under this single article alone :-D

⬐ network2592

My comment is at the top of this thread. So naturally, I have made a genuine effort to reply to replies.

You constantly try to debase the conversation. Someone even reposted your comments to highlight how disingenuous your comments are [0]. Others have repeatedly pointed out how your comments have nothing to do with the current subject matter [1] or are simply regurgitating CCP talking points [2].

Clearly, engaging with your comments is not constructive. You are not interested in a genuine conversation. You attempt to deflate a potentially constructive conversation thread at every turn and trigger a flame war.

But it is a testament to Hacker News that by and large, the community has recognized your comments and efforts to derail the conversation for what they are.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29894558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893838 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29896092 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893832

⬐ dang

Please stop perpetuating flamewars on Hacker News. We've had to ask you this many times before. Eventually we ban such accounts.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

⬐ trasz

Should I just ignore FUD then, or is there some way to respond to FUD in a way that doesn’t tend to provoke flame wars?

⬐ dang

Good question. The two things that seem to work are:

(1) Provide correct information in a way that is more substantive and more respectful than the comment you're replying to;

and/or

(2) Chalk it up to the internet being wrong about everything and walk away (silently—not with a swipe).

As a side point, you'll usually end up at #2 anyhow, because #1 usually provokes more of the same, so after a certain number of iterations you'll find yourself in a tit-for-tat entanglement, which is greatly to be avoided.

The question is what is the optimal number of iterations. Probably it's 1. Maybe 2. Not 3. 4 is right out.

⬐ network2592

"Look at your own backyard first" is a technique regularly used by Wumao [0]. Ethics knows no national borders. Human rights are human rights universally. Violations in China does not mean there are none anywhere else in the world. And if there are violations somewhere else in the world, it does not mean the world needs to be silent if it happens in China.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893724

⬐ dirtyid

> silent if it happens in China.

Seems like some people insist on being loud even when it doesn't happen in China.

The entire mass internment propaganda drive was concocted on less media access to XJ than the what APNEWs article reporting of it's dismantling. China like most countries, are not US, they don't need to maintain forever prison industrial complexes. BTW the same western analysts that alleged mass internment in XJ also concluded that mass internment phase is over, with ~50k transferred to long term internment and masses back out with gen pop in an elevated security environment, but no longer interned. The persistent allegations now is that labour rural transfer programs that's been ongoing for 20+ years throughout the country is somehow coerced labour when there's no to weak evidence.

⬐ trasz

No idea about Wumaos, in the west it might have been popularised by the Bible ("a beam in ones eye"). Still, pointing out that the accuser is doing it simply to deflect attention from much worse crimes they have committed seems universal.

⬐ jimbob45

Private prisons are well on their way to extinction in America [0]. They're hardly the same issue they were in the 90s.

[0]https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/brea...

⬐ network2592

The "look at your own backyard first" is a common technique used by Wumao [0].

It is used to reduce the force of any criticism of CCP. Human rights are universal and know no national borders [1].

That being said, thanks for qualifying the often repeated statement in this thread about US prisons. Surely, more needs to be done. That does not mean we need to be silent about Xinjiang slave concentration camps.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893724 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893855

I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as China and North Korea, to 'see for yourself', especially when you don't know the language, when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see, like VICE did in Xinjiang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

That being said, if you go then please try to walk into a random hotel/apartment you see on the street to try to book a room.. then you'll discover that 9/10 hotels/apartments won't allow foreigners to live there. I lived in China for more than a year before I realized this was the case, and I have on multiple occasions even been kicked out of friends/partners apartment because someone told the landlord there was a foreigner in the building (or maybe they saw through the surveillance camera).

⬐ powerapple

It is true. The reason is that only hotels with passport verification system can accept foreign guests (all hotels have a system connected to police department to verify national id), most hotels only have a small national id verification system (because it was cheaper I guess), only some 4 star and 5 star hotels have these. I had once tried to use my passport to stay in a hotel, they didn't allow me then I learnt about this.

⬐ rvba

Probably only the bigger hotels have an agent of ministry of state security on premises.

You should assume that you get a bugged room too.

Russians did it in the 80s, even easier now.

⬐ powerapple

China only start to recognize passport as identification a few years ago, previously a Chinese citizen can only use national id. It was just a lot extra work for the hotel if they don't have this system. No, you can get bugged, but by the state, maybe by some creeps.

⬐ seanmcdirmid

All hotels have to report their guests to the local PSB, but some smaller hotels don’t (rules aren’t that enforced in China), but will avoid foreign guests because they easily bring attention from authorities. You can get away without reporting to the PSB in some way out places (like a hostel in the middle of nowhere I stayed in that lacked electricity beyond a simply hydro wheel), but those are rare, and not in big cities.

The rooms aren’t bugged. Most foreigners aren’t that special. Maybe they will big some special hotel that gets lots of diplomats? But most of us won’t stay in those.

⬐ RealityVoid

I am surprised at what you say regarding the hosting of foreigners. My girlfriend was there for a couple of months and she didn't notice any such thing, and she actually rented a place with a couple of friends, also foreigners. Is this what you describe because of racism or because of government?

⬐ arvigeus

Depends on where she lived. Beijing, Shanghai and other first tier cities are ok for foreigners. The further away you get, the more blurry situation gets.

⬐ whimsicalism

Not true in my experience. They do have to register you with the local govt, which afaik is true of hotels in the US as well.

⬐ NikolaeVarius

The hell you talking about. I've been to roughly 40 states, and am "non-white" and have never had to do this shit at any hotel

⬐ whimsicalism

You don't have to show your ID to check in?

⬐ mlindner

What? The US doesn't require anyone to register with the local government when traveling, foreigner or US citizen. Where are you getting this kind of misinformation?

⬐ yawaworht1978

I don't know about the us, but in some places in Europe , the police or a security agency passes by daily to pick up a form that's filled out when checking in.

Source, friend worked in a hotel and I have seen it with my own eyes.

⬐ dijonman2

Chinese misinformation campaign?

⬐ pksebben

going through whimsicalisms posts, and it's actually hard to build a picture of state-run propaganda. They talk about Taiwanese independence like it's a given, for example. This could possibly be a cultural misunderstanding.

Never attribute to malice etc.

⬐ learc83

Where did you get this from? US hotels most definitely do not “register (resident or non-resident) guests with the local government”.

A few states require hotel guests to present an ID at checkin.

⬐ beebeepka

How can you tell if a hotel registers you with the local government? I am not saying they are (never bothered to cross the Atlantic) but you have no way of knowing what they do.

My assumption is they all do, directly or not. I mean, 2013 did happen. Guess not everyone was paying attention

⬐ learc83

The “local government” are my neighbors the Sheriff and the County Commissioner.

Then there are freedom of information requests, journalist, whistleblowers working for local government, and whistleblowers working for hotels.

If the Sheriff knew who you were and had probable cause he could get a warrant to get your credit card transactions from your bank and from that see you were in a hotel.

But that’s pretty far away from “hotels register you with the local government.”

There was actually a hotel owner who took it on himself to report suspected undocumented immigrants to ICE a few years ago. We know about it because it quickly made its way to the papers, and caused an enormous uproar.

⬐ snomad

remind me, what happened in 2013?

⬐ beebeepka

Check out this Snowden guy. He made some uncomfortable revelations

⬐ throwanem

Spoken like someone who's never spent any time in or around the US service industry. People will gossip, and something like this would be known - hell, I'd likely know it, just on account of knowing some folks who would know and would want to talk about it. I don't live in a tech monoculture, either geographically or socially, and I'm friendly, personable, and good at explaining complex systems simply. Because of that I get a lot of questions from acquaintances about everything from phone and PC repair to what human life might look like after a hard-takeoff singularity. Those conversations go lots of places, but often tend to converge on people's worries about tech in general, as they take the chance of a discussion with someone knowledgeable to check their anxieties against reality. So the surprise, if this were happening, would be more that by now someone hadn't mentioned it, over drinks or otherwise, in my hearing.

That said, I don't find that lack at all surprising. What you're thinking of here is more of a Stasi-style "informers everywhere" kind of deal, and US domestic mass surveillance really doesn't work that way. Much more likely would be something like NSA watching payment card transactions en masse for debits from hotels and associating those with cell tower and identity data, and maybe also having quietly penetrated the major booking systems to spot cash purchases. In light of Snowden's 2013 revelations, it wouldn't surprise me to hear about either of those, and indeed I assume they are both being done. (Not least because that's probably how I'd build it. Why deal openly with a bunch of separate businesses and fractious employees when you can much more quietly and easily learn all you want from what's going over the wire?)

And aside from all that - not for nothing is it so common a theme in our popular media, especially these last couple of decades, that by and large we'd really just rather not know. You've mentioned that you don't really understand America, and that checks out; if you did, you'd neither be surprised that the response to Snowden was mostly a yawn, nor need telling anything I've said in this comment. Our intelligence agencies certainly don't.

⬐ whimsicalism

If you pay cash, you pretty much uniformly have to show ID, no? I don't think it is possible to book a room without identifying yourself.

This might not be reported to the state, but I feel like it definitely could be subpoenad by the state.

⬐ seanmcdirmid

We usually do have to present ID these days, but more importantly a credit card. There is no registration with the police as you say, America has nothing like the hukou system either.

⬐ alisonatwork

Both. I have been refused access to a place because the landlord was openly racist and didn't want to rent to me after she found out I was a foreigner. There is pretty much no recourse for foreigners who are victims of racism in China, it's an extremely racist country. When you're a foreigner you just kinda have to accept that there are people who will cross the street or shield their kids when they see you, loudly complain when you sit next to them on the bus, refuse to do business with you, etc etc. Of course in rich areas of tier one cities where the government has an image to uphold, this will happen much less frequently.

That said, definitely in the case of hotels there are loads of hotels it seems there is a legal aspect as well. If you lived in China you might be familiar with the long and boring process of registration with the police every time you move house. Sometimes you even have to register at more than one place because you moved into a different urban area. According to the law, all foreigners must do this everywhere they go in China, including tourists who are on holiday. It wouldn't be very efficient to make tourists spend a couple hours at the police station every time they checked into a hotel, so some hotels have some arrangement with the local police to do this on their guests' behalf behind the scenes. Most tourists nowadays don't even know that they have been registered with the police everywhere they travel. But smaller hotels don't provide that service. I have successfully blagged my way into staying at one smaller hotel by assuring them i would visit the local police myself to register, but a lot of them don't want the hassle or (perhaps) attention from the local authorities, so they just ban foreigners.

When I left China it was during the pandemic, and pretty much no hotels at all would allow foreigners to stay. This was xenophobia, pure and simple. There were a few times I had to first visit the police station and ask the police where I could stay, because hotel after hotel after hotel refused me, despite my green health code, valid visa and so on.

⬐ carlmr

I've had smaller hotels tell me they can't host foreigners due to some law that you need to have a star rating which they didn't. The only time I had problems booking a hotel was in Shanghai and Beijing though, in other cities there was never an issue.

Also I was always greeted with utter friendliness, so I don't get the everybody's xenophobic aspect. I do speak some (very basic) Mandarin though so maybe that helps with how you're treated.

⬐ alisonatwork

Not speaking Chinese is probably a benefit, because what you don't know can't hurt you. I speak fairly fluent Mandarin, and have overheard a lot of very open racist and xenophobic sentiments expressed in conversations around me when the people presumably assumed i couldn't understand what they were saying.

It is true that people in China tend to be fairly polite, although when it blows up it tends to go straight to 11. (I saw a lot of this happening between police and residents during the coronavirus lockdowns.) But just because people are polite, don't assume that means they're not bigots. In some parts of the country, particularly amongst more affluent people, there is a sort of attitude that foreigners should be treated with kid gloves, which is thoroughly degrading.

⬐ lincw

As a Chinese who grew up in a very small city in the west, I think you are completely right. The more developed areas is, the more open they are. And so on to the teenagers compare elders. At least in the surface. However, as the government turns to be more close(I don’t know how to describe it more correct but i believe you know) when Xi gets the power, even the teenagers become more racist and xenophobic while I am an undergraduate seen. IMO, probably that’s because most of them could only receive the Internet in China(which we always consider it as a LAN): everything in the world has a “Chinese special edition”. After all, IMO, it’s able to come to China in some big cities with a VPN or something across the firewall since nobody can stay away to internet these days. Thus you will get a experience not too bad, and China is like most any other countries. But just stay in the urban area. What’s more, you know it’s not a good time to visit during pandemic, and i think racist and xenophobic been much more during these time. I don’t know what the china being tomorrow, but i’m pessimistic. Sorry for my bad english.

⬐ demonshreder

Facing discrimination when you are foreigner is pretty common in most countries. I think if you are from the white diaspora you wouldn't have noticed in the western countries but every time a friend (I am from India) goes to countries in NA & EU, there is almost always some form of discrimination preventing access to service or being overcharged without legal intervention.

⬐ chancho

"White diaspora" is blowing my mind a bit. I think I would have been slapped by my social studies teachers if I ever used that phrase to describe colonialism. (I'm white, US)

⬐ selfhoster11

Nice of you to assume that all white people had a chance to colonise (rather than be colonised and conquered by neighbouring nations on a regular basis). I'm not carrying the sins of the English-speaking (or otherwise formerly colonising) nations, so could the whites == colonialism assumption stay wherever other such weird assumptions belong.

⬐ User23

European diaspora is an accepted term[1]. Yes there's a redirect, but the word "diaspora" is used in the very first paragraph. It's ok, Europeans are people too. There's nothing offensive about the term. Plenty of "colonials" were sentenced to transportation, they didn't choose it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_diaspora

⬐ thoms_a

You can take solace in the fact that "whites" will never again command such societies in the future. The exaggerated "colonialism" narrative comes off as pining for a long-lost era of dominance, but in a socially acceptable way.

The era of Northern Europeans ("whites") dominating the globe is over forever, so no need to beat yourself up about it. Just letting you know that this extreme narrative is quite bizarre to non-Americans.

⬐ Veen

Visiting or living in foreign countries for business or tourism is not "colonialism".

⬐ xerxesaa

I've been to many hotels across the United States and Europe over a number of years in cities of all sizes and can honestly say have never even felt the remote possibility of being denied a room. Also Indian/Pakistani.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not trying to deny your own experience or making any accusations here. I'm just presenting the other side and clarifying that I don't feel it's a universal experience.

⬐ chrischen

America has its own class of problems that get exaggerated or overblown, such as how dangerous it is.

⬐ powerapple

Yes, foreigners need to register their address. I did that in UK every time I move when I was under student visa. If you fail to register within 7 days or so, you will be hit with a fine and other consequences. I also need to fill in my address in US every time I visit US. I assume it is normal for people traveling to westerns, but not very normal for westerners themselves. Most tourism countries, hotels do registration for you, sometimes you fill an extra form when you check in.

⬐ arbuge

This is weird. Definitely not my experience at all. I visited Shanghai, Beijing, and Chengdu in China in 2012 and I felt extremely welcome wherever I went. I might also add that in Chengdu, a city which sees considerably less foreigners than the other two, I felt like I was being treated like somewhat of a celebrity, with people smiling at me everywhere, and random passer-bys on the street trying to impress me with their renditions of "Good Morning" or "How are you?". Once I had a visibly excited team of students randomly stop me on the street to do an interview with me for their class project, and on another occasion a large group of young people all wanted to take a picture with me one by one.

Needless to say, I loved it.

⬐ byw

Some things to keep in mind:

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Western expats in East Asia tend to be quite polarized about their country of residence, and expats in poorer countries even more so. Over time, the tint of novelty wears off and the warts begin to stand out. Poorer countries have more warts.

For folks like myself who are extra sensitive, the negatives get an outsized representation, while the positives and neutrals get filtered out. It took me years of to develop the habits to compensate. I'm far from where I'd like to be, but I'm learning to accept that as well.

This is especially true in places of higher density. If you encounter 1 bad apple in a place of 100 people, vs 10 bad apples of 1000 people, the ratio is the same, but subjectively the latter feels ten times worse. It’s the price you pay for living the city life.

And when you have an under-stimulated career, the idle mind becomes the devil's playground.

We let collective narratives plays a greater role in colouring our opinions (as opposite to direct experience) than we'd like to admit. In this day and age, I don't think it's especially controversial to say that we get more dopamine hits from internet discussions than having a stroll down the street. Ultimately, unless we consciously intervene, the chemicals get to decide what we let ruminate in the back of our minds.

The idiosyncrasies you used to brush off or find amusing are now small but cumulative signs of impending doom. What we get right in direction we get wrong in magnitude. The sprinkles of verifiable truth can often as easily fuel our biases as they moderate them.

⬐ mads

All the cities you mention are tier one Potemkin cities.

Try go to the country side to see the real China.

For the racism part, I wouldn't say that signs with "no foreigners" in shops are common, but I have seen them a couple of times during my 5 year stay in China.

⬐ physicles

As someone who’s lived in China since 2012 up until the present day, things have changed markedly in the last few years, and especially since ~April of last year once it became clear that China was handling the pandemic better than the rest of the world.

Most people are still ok, but some fraction of the population has a mixture of fear and hatred of foreigners. They think foreigners are dangerous because we bring the virus. Far fewer places accept foreigners than before.

I love my life and my friends here, but walking down the street in a village and having a guy wearing an official-looking coat scream at you to “fuck off” has a way of souring one’s mood.

⬐ monocasa

China has changed an awful lot even since 2012.

⬐ brokenodometer

Can you imagine saying “ni hao” and asking for selfies with random Asian people on the street in whatever western country? It would be racist and demeaning as hell. That’s what they subjected you to, and you felt “special.”

⬐ _tik_

I experienced this a lot in India, some part of eastern Europe and Balkan. Most of them asked nicely. Told me that they come from a very small town there is not much chances to meet foreigner. And I usually ok with it. Don't find it is racist. It is just curiosity of other culture.

⬐ physicles

I mostly give them a pass because they weren’t being malicious, just curious. I’ve spoken with plenty of people who literally had never talked to a foreigner before. Perhaps half the country has still never even seen a foreigner.

It’s definitely taken too far sometimes though.

⬐ seanmcdirmid

It really depends on your race as a foreigner. Black and Indian foreigners will be treated worse than white foreigners. Asian foreigners…it really depends how Chinese they look.

It seems to get worse every year also. My first visit in 1999, foreigners were quite welcomed. Then it simply got more mundane from there. My visit twas chengdu in 2006 was fairly like you stated though.

⬐ alisonatwork

2012 is a very long time ago by Chinese standards. Xi only became the general secretary in November of that year and the president in 2013. Most of his authoritarian and nationalist policies have only really kicked into a higher gear from 2018. The xenophobia got even worse after the coronavirus hit, and I can't imagine it has improved much since I left in 2020.

Also, I don't know what makes you think that Chengdu is off the beaten path - it's a massive tourist destination, in particular because of its panda reserve, presumed proximity to Tibet and the global renown of Sichuan cuisine (home of mapo tofu, hotpot etc).

Thirdly, this coddling of foreigners is exactly the kind of racist behavior that I find to be degrading. It might feel superficially nice to be treated like you are special or unique, but really it means you are not being treated with respect. They are treating you like a child, or a curiosity. If you visit some of the indigenous communities of China then you will often see the Han majority treat the ethnic minorities in the same way, as if they are just props for photos or some kind of weird creatures to be gawked at. It's gross, imo.

⬐ nowherebeen

I never saw it that way. Your comment definitely opened my eyes.

⬐ maybelsyrup

Why do you need everyone here to agree with you so bad

⬐ seattle_spring

Thank you. I had the same experience as GP in 2010 except I absolutely hated it. Can you imagine if people in the US treated Chinese tourists like that?

⬐ gavinray

Hey what sort of bullshit is this HN?

I was reading a reply by a guy who counter-commented on this, a bunch of links of people on YouTube walking around this same area and not seeing anything like this.

Then went to comment, and it says "flagged" and was deleted, in under 10 minutes.

I don't really care about politics or China at all, but that is some spooky-tier censorship here on HN. Wtf is going on here?

Here's one of the links I followed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENwvxsfVM8

⬐ andrewxdiamond

I encourage you to apply occam's razor here. I don’t think any political entity has any interest in controlling what individuals post on a tiny website like HN.

⬐ gavinray

Here is the post that has vanished:

https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=29684814

  > I don’t think any political entity has any interest in controlling what individuals post on a tiny website like HN.

I wish I could pull a cached view of the comment up (I tried), there wasn't anything I would interpret as being inflammatory in there.

The comment boiled down to:

  "VICE isn't what I'd call the most reputable/unbiased source. I'd encourage everyone to do their own research/make their own decision. Here are a bunch of links of people walking around the same area, and it looks nothing like what is cut together from that VICE episode."

The speed at which it was flagged and removed was shocking. Like I said, (maybe I am a bad person for this), I don't really care that much about China or politics in general. There are a lot of other things I'd rather spend my energy caring about, that directly impact me.

I just wanted to call out this very odd behavior. I don't see HN as a place where people who speak objectively + respectfully get silenced, generally.

⬐ monort

Enable showdead in settings to view flagged comments.

⬐ themitigating

There are other rules that are unrelated to being objective or respectful

⬐ andrewxdiamond

As for the flagging, I believe HN auto-flags comments from new accounts that receive a large number of downvotes as an anti-spam feature.

⬐ andrewxdiamond

If you enable showdead on your profile, you’ll see that this comment is denying the well documented genocide that is occurring in these regions. That will rightfully annoy many people here, hence the downvotes.

So using the razor, I think we can conclude what happened.

User makes a new throwaway account to spread easily disproved information

Other users downvote the misinformation

HN autoflags the comment to protect against preceived-spam.

Although you are right to question what you see. It is never wrong to take a second to ask “what’s going on here?”

⬐ whydoibother

None

⬐ hulitu

There are a lot of people "with an agenda" here, to say the least. And unlike Slashdot you cannot reply to flagged or dead comments which benefits those people.

⬐ hker

> a bunch of links of people on YouTube walking around this same area and not seeing anything like this.

There is heavy tracking and surveillance in China [1], especially in Xinjiang [2][3].

Hence any reporting of Xinjiang, including the YouTube links you mentioned and posted, have selection bias.

That is, unfavorable reports or videos are censored, while favorable videos are selected, if not outright sponsored as part of large-scale online disinformation campaigns [5][6].

=====

The tracking and surveillance of reporters in Xinjiang, where journalists are tracked and have photos deleted for no reasons [2]:

    I was in Kashgar to report on how the Chinese authorities had turned to technology to cement their control of the Xinjiang territory, a region in the west of the country. Foreign journalists who travel there are tracked. I became one of the watched.

    [...snipped...]

    Another time, a police officer stopped us close to our hotel. Inspecting Chris’s photos, he deleted a shot of a camel. When Chris asked why that photo was deleted, the man turned to Chris and said, “In China, there are no whys.”.

=====

The tracking and surveillance of reporters in general, using the pandemic as an excuse and using visas for control [3]:

    Several foreign and domestic journalists were forced to abandon stories after being told "to leave or be quarantined on the spot," the report highlighted. Press credentials were commonly canceled by Beijing officials and embassies were routinely tasked with trying to renew revoked visas from journalists. The report said foreign journalists were used as "pawns" in China's international diplomatic disputes.

=====

The sponsorship of favorable YouTube and other social media videos, also covering ethnic mintorities [5]:

     The Barretts are part of a crop of new social media personalities who paint cheery portraits of life as foreigners in China — and also hit back at criticisms of Beijing’s authoritarian governance, its policies toward ethnic minorities and its handling of the coronavirus. 

    [...snipped...]

     State-run news outlets and local governments have organized and funded pro-Beijing influencers’ travel, according to government documents and the creators themselves. They have paid or offered to pay the creators. They have generated lucrative traffic for the influencers by sharing videos with millions of followers on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook. 

    [...snipped...]

     His videos do not mention the internal government documents, firsthand testimonials and visits by journalists that indicate that the Chinese authorities have held hundreds of thousands of Xinjiang’s Muslims in re-education camps.

    They also do not mention his and his family’s business ties to the Chinese state.

=====

> Hey what sort of bullshit is this HN?

This sort of bullshit (sponsored videos) should not be promoted on HN, which may fuel the disinformation campaigns [5][6].

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/china-province... "Chinese province targets journalists and students in planned surveillance system"

[2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/insider/china-xinjiang-re... "Being Tracked While Reporting in China, Where ‘There Are No Whys’"

[3]: https://www.newsweek.com/china-harassing-intimidating-journa... "China Harassing, Intimidating Journalists With Surveillance Built to Curb COVID-19"

[4]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/13/technology/ch... "How Beijing Influences the Influencers"

[5]: https://web.archive.org/web/20211224143113/https://www.nytim... "How Beijing Influences the Influencers"

[6]: https://miburo.substack.com/p/cotton-the-act "Cotton the Act: Large-Scale Network of CCP-aligned Facebook Accounts Deny Mass Atrocity in China's Xinjiang Province"

Edits: added more links.

⬐ gavinray

  > This sort of bullshit (sponsored videos) should not be promoted on HN.

Promoted or not, this is generally a community for having level-headed discussions about things.

The original commenter says "China is X way".

Someone responds and says "China is Y way."

Everyone ought to be able to upvote/downvote, and argue + discuss to their hearts content.

I have no horse in this race, but I would have expected the person to just get downvoted into oblivion or responded to with posts like yours, containing responding counter-arguments/links, if the majority of people disagree with or hold contrary evidence to.

My reaction was less to do it about it being anything specifically related to China, and more about the principle/premise of the matter.

It could equally have been "Person 1 says eggs are bad for you, Person 2 says eggs are good for you." and I would have had the same reaction.

⬐ dillondoyle

There is a big difference between real debate on real issues - the example egg nutrition lol. Versus trying to refute or distract with a 'debate' on reality & facts.

Some things shouldn't be up for debate and calling doubt on reality is a weapon used by those who have political stakes.

China is a tough one too because as we saw on a top HN post from a few days ago we know the CCP has a large, active operation to comment and engage in online forums to sway opinion.

Article gave examples of typical straw man, whataboutism, handy wavy redirection.

The kind of comments exactly like what got flagged.

⬐ hker

This HN post?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29661475 "Spamouflage: CCP-Aligned Disinformation Campaign on Facebook Twitter YouTube"

⬐ dillondoyle

I think same news source! but this was the big thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29654137

There have been a few over the years. One I remember talked about a gamified app which is like so innovative and sad at the same time

⬐ wegrwerg

If that link is the best representation of the lot, then yeah, they deserved to be deleted. Walking around a neighborhood with a high density of a given ethnicity, showing them managing to enjoy the life they have does nothing to discredit the idea that the same ethnicity is oppressed and heavily targeted.

Or to put it another way with a much more mild example, you can make a video full of happy black folks in some of the most backwards racist oppressive parts of the US. The existence of happy people does not negate the oppression they continue to endure.

⬐ gavinray

I'm not intending/trying to start any sort of argument about how things actually are.

I have no idea. I've never been to China. It could be really bad, exactly the way the video makes it out to be. The video could be dramatized, and not representative of the situation as a whole.

I'm not sure I would believe things that China told me about the US

By the same logic, I'm not sure I believe all the things that US/US-allied media tell me about China

Without access to verifiably unbiased information (which is difficult in an age where nations have entire agencies dedicated to misinformation for political purposes) it's something that's hard for me to form an objective opinion on. And I'm not that invested in it to want to form an opinion.

I just wanted to point out this odd behavior that I've not seen much of on here.

⬐ hymnsfm

None

⬐ hulitu

> I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as China and North Korea, to 'see for yourself', especially when you don't know the language, when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see

I'm personally opposed to the idea of visiting certain countries, such as USA since they searched phones at the border and you could be treated like a criminal based on who knows what.

⬐ xinniethepooh

The difference is that in the USA the media is allowed, and does cover this. In China, there is absolute suppression of free speech/media/religion, and the active internment of people who dissent.

You can't even compare the USA and China; China is objectively less free and more repressive.

⬐ imbnwa

On a lower frequency, this similar to why I'm not interested in tourism as "self-discovery", "new experience", or some shit, like the rest of the world is just stage and props for my existential theatre. I'm not gonna change as a human unless I actually move there to live permanently. Even worse, the middle-class trend to make the number of distinct places you've visited some form of social currency ("how many stamps are in your passport?").

I remember this sales guy who always made it a point to tell every woman he talked to that he did Peace Corps in Africa and how it changed him working with Africans. Like, you could've just volunteered somewhere on the south side of the city if you really wanted to help some African folk.

⬐ ubercow13

Do you really think you can't learn anything as a tourist?

⬐ imbnwa

Learn anything? Certainly you can realize the true scale of Angkor Wat.

⬐ MomoXenosaga

Most people can't learn anything and they don't want to. It is impossible to explain what living in a slum is like to a middle class woke guy.

⬐ ubercow13

Well if you're being that reductionist, what's the point in doing or learning anything? Why is tourism any more useless than any other pointless attempt for a woke guy to learn something?

⬐ Levitz

> I'm not gonna change as a human unless I actually move there to live permanently.

This, in my experience, is simply not true.

There is a value in going to different places, changing every variable there is to your life except yourself.

When you are somewhere you've never been to, where you know nobody, where the food, language and customs are all different, then you can find out which parts of yourself stay, who you are and what you are capable of. That has value.

⬐ kibwen

There are plenty of pitfalls to the attitude that tourism will grant enlightenment, but I agree that some amount travel is crucial. Experiencing a different society (the everyday bits, not just the facade shown to tourists), even for a short amount of time, helps to humanize the people living in that society (or really, any society other than your own). Never straying from one place for your entire life is a great way to cultivate the attitude that the only "real" culture is the one that you're familiar with. In a connected world, empathy for people outside your own immediate sphere is important, and even a small amount of travel to a small number of places will generally suffice to begin developing this sort of empathy.

⬐ imbnwa

It's just, you don't need a plane ticket and a passport to satisfy these goals

⬐ musingsole

Maybe, but too many think that visiting a resort town in a far flung country has given them a meaningful experience of "otherness" as if those same resorts weren't purpose built to coddle to foreigners being out of their element.

And even if you do fall through the tourism system and find yourself elbow to elbow with a native, the thought that you as a foreigner will unlock their culture in handful of days when most natural born members of a group will be learning their own eccentricities to the day they die is one of the more disgusting flavors of arrogance.

⬐ rajin444

Are you saying Africans and (black, which I assume you mean but I’m trying to be charitable) people in your city are basically the same? I imagine the lives and cultures in Africa are vastly different than whatever city you’re in.

⬐ pessimizer

You're also assuming that their town doesn't have a lot of African immigrants living on its south side, and that the speaker wasn't (very questionably) saying that their experience with Africans affected the way they interacted with local black people.

⬐ rajin444

That’s why I mentioned lives and cultures in Africa. African immigrant lives in x city are gonna be different than in Africa.

⬐ imbnwa

If the only way for you to deal with Black skin charitably be that they be some exotic Other "over there", that're 'different', who 'actually have it bad', and that you don't need to ever run into again, then you're part of a problem and don't know why.

Africa won't want for charitable aid labor in spite of this sentiment, it just can field those grunt work jobs from people who're, you know, from the area itself rather than Western tourists looking for a story to tell or a CV to pad.

⬐ martin_a

I think OP is talking about some kind of "charity tourism" that's happening. I think Europe has some effects like this, too, where people prefer to go to Africa to "help some children" while they could be "doing good" by getting active in local organisations. No need to travel some thousand kilometres for that.

⬐ pmlnr

I've been to mainland China three times, and in all three times, it was either historical interest or the outstanding natural beauties. Sichuan is an incredible place, and I hope I'll be able to get back one day - when politics again will become more subtle.

Regarding the hotels: they need a license to accept foreigners.

⬐ rootsudo

This is mostly because they don't know how to register foreign passports. If you show them how to do it and present your passport, it is not an issue.

https://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/china-stuff/china-travel/for...

So many foreigners/laowai spread the same misinformation. You can stay, if you have sufficient Chinese/Mandarin, you can explain the above and it works. If you have a good friend explain, it also works. Most say the same thing as you "kicked out" "not allowed" or "rascism".

Not true at all, - at some hotels where I stayed I was really the first foreigner to ever pass through. (I wasn't staying in typical Shanghai places for example, more north and more west.)

Not an issue at all, explained, showed, registered, done.

⬐ legofr

In every other country you show them your passport, you write your signature and you pay a deposit - done.

In China you either need to go through an agency that have something similar to "The Negro Motorist Green Book" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book), or you need to speak Chinese, convince the reception that they don't need a certificate they believe they're legally required to have, convince the reception to call the owner who will no doubt repeat a foreigner is not allowed, then you need to contact the police to convince the owner, if the police agree that a certificate is required then you need to convince the police that they don't know their own laws, convince them to call the Provincial Foreign Affairs Bureau.. that's what the person in your blogpost has been doing. She even told the police to give her their badge numbers so she could file an official complaint. That person is certainly living on the edge.

Even if it's technically legal, then surely the end result will be the same - 9/10 hotels and apartments will refuse foreigners (for the apartments I rented then everything was done on paper, I doubt they have the booking system mentioned in the blogpost - not sure if all hotels use the same since I have never walked behind the desk and looked at their computer.. and they probably wouldn't allow it if I asked) because who in their right mind want to spend several hours and likely get the police involved just so they can rent a room for 200rmb.

⬐ freeflight

> In every other country you show them your passport, you write your signature and you pay a deposit - done.

There are nearly 200 countries on this planet, in that context your claim sounds more like quite the generalization, on your part, rather than an actual fact.

edit; Wow, never would have thought that stating a simple fact could be controversial on HN.

What is going on in these comments? People acting like everybody is American/Canadian, and as if the whole world is all the same, but only China is some weird outlier, smh

⬐ rootsudo

It's the same in China for most hotels that know what they're doing. " In every other country you show them your passport, you write your signature and you pay a deposit - done.".

If you go off the beaten path or less than 4 stars hotels, then that.

And not unique just in China, Japan will do it too with some places - granted mostly it's love hotels which is ironic cause they're not supposed to know whose checking in, no passport is required, but many a foreigner can't read Kanji or talk.

⬐ dfjhakdfhadkf

Vice, right. It all depends on what you want to believe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENwvxsfVM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8qnr8DXZOc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbD-vfO_OU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTWQIqFddfg

And https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsIR2_Vp4yY as from non-friendly perspective. Reporters constantly provoking local people, as if they are the land lord of the place... Then label the reaction as hiding something from reporter... It's like walking into a stranger's house rudely, and demand to be treated as "reporter". Note that such behavior in US would get the reporter shot to death on the spot, and the killer be touted as hero...

So much for the reporting...

⬐ freeflight

Reminds me of this channel 4 [0] interview with writer Benjamin Zephaniah. Tbh I find his reasoning, go there and see for yourself, much more convincing than your reasoning.

Particularly this;

> when you're not willing to risk your life to understand and uncover the parts the government doesn't want you to see

Just reads like FUD, it's not China that locks up people at the highest rate on the planet. That "feat" is reserved to a country were nobody would say "don't visit there you might die!" even tho the chance for that to happen there is much more likely than in China or NK, where most police don't even carry guns.

[0] https://youtu.be/zowOkv0Cuhk

⬐ belval

Considering the locked up two Canadians in retaliation for Canada arresting Meng Wanghzu. I just don't see how I could go there and not have anxiety for the whole trip.

It's a shame though, I always wanted to see China.

⬐ freeflight

> Considering the locked up two Canadians in retaliation for Canada arresting Meng Wanghzu.

So let's just ignore the context of why and how that happened, or what kind of anxiety that translates to for Chinese people visiting countries like Canada or the US?

I mean, who there started arresting other nations nationals as geopolitical gambling chips? It wasn't China, it was Canada at the command of the US.

> I just don't see how I could go there and not have anxiety for the whole trip.

As a German national, I don't see how or why that should affect me. Can you please expand on your reasoning there?

⬐ alisonatwork

I have Canadian citizenship and lived in China when the two Michaels were locked up. In reality, even if the worst fears are true and every foreigner is explicitly tracked and constantly monitored by the local police department, it still wouldn't really be worth the government's effort to "disappear" the average foreigner, or even "invite them to tea". Most of us simply aren't that influential or important.

Of course, it does feel a bit suspicious when you say something mildly critical of the government online or during a meal with friends and then "mysteriously" the next day your VPN stops working, but it's just as likely that it could be coincidence and you're reading too much into it. But that's exactly how things are supposed to work in an authoritarian regime. Most of the time the government isn't explicitly watching over everyone, but because the legal system is deliberately opaque, everyone maintains a tiny bit of fear inside them that maybe they could be being watched, or that there might be a secret police just around the corner, so they self-censor and limit their behaviors just in case.

So, you're right that you might have anxiety the whole trip, but arguably that means you're getting to experience the "real China". Living under a constant chilling effect[0] is probably worse for locals than foreigners. At least as a foreigner you can leave when the pressure gets too much. Most locals don't have that privilege.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect

⬐ freeflight

> I have Canadian citizenship and lived in China when the two Michaels were locked up.

Who were only locked up after Canada locked up a Chinese citizen at the request of the US.

Weirdly enough, that is framed in a completely different context than China's response to it.

⬐ alisonatwork

A very prominent businessperson being held for allowing her company to commit fraud and violate US sanctions in a country that has an extradition treaty with the US is not the same thing as a country "suddenly" detaining two expats, in an immediate and obvious response to the previous lawful detention. The two Michaels weren't even charged with anything after they had been detained, imprisoned and interrogated for 5+ months! Meanwhile Meng Wanzhou was able to continue living a relatively comfortable life under home arrest. It's not fair to suggest that the average person - Chinese or not - will just randomly be arrested and imprisoned for months in Canada, with no charges filed whatsoever. The same thing happens frequently in China.

⬐ powerapple

I do not believe the two Canadians are innocent to be honest. My assumption is that they are spies, but not spying on China, they were probably spying on NK. It was strange enough for a Canadian to have a hotel business close to NK. Of course, no evidence whatsoever, but Chinese governments probably have them on list for a while, just never bothered to do anything.

⬐ chrischen

I’m ethnically Chinese. While I speak a little I am still mistaken for a foreigner since I often hire a translator and I traveled extensively through China throughout the last 2 decades to many places both remote and urban on a US passport. Never had a problem with hotels (though mostly booked online) nor staying at relatives/friends houses, nor anything blatantly authoritarian besides my internet bring blocked (which I got around using a SOCKS proxy).

I was also part of an Obama administration sponsored group of Americans sent to China for an entrepreneurship exchange trip and I think more Americans should be sent to China to learn about it rather than reading biased second hand accounts over the internet. While it was a guided and escorted tour, we were also allowed to freely wander the cities in some of the evenings. It would go a long way to ease tensions and reduce enmity between the two nations if there was more genuine cultural interaction instead of spooky observations from afar. People tend to exaggerate and boogeyman what they don’t know and understand.

⬐ itsagavin

The reality is every step you took was observed and I would assume even where you slept both video and audio were recorded.

⬐ bigmanwalter

I backpacked through China and stayed in youth hostels. Highly doubt they were bugged. They didn’t even have heating (we used electric blankets)

⬐ chrischen

I think part of that is that a lot of infrastructure is missing, but also culturally less wasteful than American lifestyles. For example I stayed in my Japanese friend's house in Tokyo and he doesn't heat the entire place even though it's a pretty small apartment. My room just had a heated blanket as well.

But I agree, for any random foreigner the government is not competent enough to surveil him/her and much less motivated to do so. The fact is any given foreigner is not actually that important...

⬐ nowherebeen

> But I agree, for any random foreigner the government is not competent enough to surveil him/her and much less motivated to do so. The fact is any given foreigner is not actually that important...

I don't think that's the actual point though. You shouldn't dismiss their determination simply because you don't think local officials are competant. On a national level, the Chinese government is extremely competant. Their goal isn't to care about that 1 foreigner, but to monitor the sea of people and be able to accuracy pick out the right person whenever and wherever they want. You shouldn't underestimate Chinese peoples ability to get things done when needed.

⬐ seanmcdirmid

The problem is that China doesn’t allow for central heating south of the Yangtze. So my coldest winter ever was spent in a small town in south Hunan, where it was above freezing but the lack of indoor heating really beats you down, kotatsus not withstanding. A friend of mine has parents who migrate to “northern” China in the winter so they don’t freeze to death.

Japan had a similar problem being previously not very rich (they invented kotatsu for that reason).

⬐ hker

Let me add some nuances to this claim.

Even if “every step is observed” is exaggerated, the surveillance system in China is pretty extensive: it can target journalists and international students among other “suspicious people”, and can compile individual files on such persons using 3,000 facial recognition cameras (in a single province) that connect to various national and regional databases. [1]

And this surveillance system is part of the bigger tracking program, which the Chinese authority has used to harass and intimidate journalists [2] (see this comment for more [3]).

And according to the memoir “A Promised Land”, even Obama and his staff were worried about Chinese surveillance during their stay at the Beijing hotel (see this review [4] or this summary [5]):

    “To make calls involving national security matters from the hotel, I had to go to a suite down the hall fitted with a sensitive compartmented information facility (SCIF) — a big blue tent plopped down in the middle of the room that hummed with an eerie, psychedelic buzz designed to block any nearby listening devices. Some members of our team dressed and even showered in the dark to avoid the hidden cameras we could assume had been strategically placed in every room. (Marvin, on the other hand, said he made a point of walking around his room naked and with the lights on — whether out of pride or in protest wasn’t entirely clear.)” [4]

And I agree with other commenters [6] that the situation worsened significantly after 2018 as Xi was consolidating power, so experiences before 2016 or so may not be representative of the current trend (when Xi may get more terms).

[1]: https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-chinese-provinc... "EXCLUSIVE Chinese province targets journalists, foreign students with planned new surveillance system"

[2]: https://www.newsweek.com/china-harassing-intimidating-journa... "China Harassing, Intimidating Journalists With Surveillance Built to Curb COVID-19"

[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29685703

[4]: https://georgetoparis.medium.com/obamas-a-promised-land-on-c... "Obama’s “A Promised Land”, on China"

[5]: https://www.bannedbook.org/en/bnews/baitai/20201121/1434392.... "Obama recalls his first visit to China and was under surveillance"

[6]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29684626

⬐ chrischen

You can assume anything. Doesn't mean it's true. The reality is that your perception of China is highly fantasized and part of a crafted narrative. It's dangerous if you continue to contribute to this propaganda without care as to whether you've verified anything you've heard yourself. Maybe it's true, maybe not, but I doubt you'd know. I mean, it's certainly possible our rooms were bugged, but to what end? To fulfill the dreams of conspiracy theorists? I guess it's equally likely the US embedded a CIA agent in our group as well so maybe bugging us would be justified.

⬐ GauntletWizard

Your naivete is unsurprising; it was one of the traits you were selected for in trip planning.

Countries spy on foreign visitors. Friendship trips are carefully planned to show none of the underside of a society. China is one of the most oppressive regimes out there - see the detention of Jack Ma, who was five years ago one of their most celebrated businessmen.

⬐ chrischen

Well, must be Obama’s conspiracy because the US side selected the participants. You speak as if you have indisputable proof of some conspiracy.

The naïveté is not understanding that China’s problems is not so much they are evil masterminds rather than just incompetent bureaucrats. The takeaway from the trip is that 90% of what they expose to the outside world is a facade to save face for their own politicians, not that they are competent super spies.

They may have spied on us, but we’d have not much value being spied upon. If spying is somehow the benchmark of authoritarian regimes then the US and Israel probably lead the pack of these types of regimes.

Secondly, just because you disagree with government policies doesn’t make it some evil regime. You cited Jack Ma but he is still out and about.

⬐ nowherebeen

I can say from experience that security cameras have drastically increased in Shenzhen in the last few years. Every train car has at least 3 cameras strategically position and hallways have clusters of them. They left 0 corners for you to hide This is in contrast to a few year ago when it wasn't as common. I think the Hong Kong protests woke them up on the need to do so. I am certain they were deploying machine learning algorithms to monitor the public. I bet they can catch anyone they want at this point with a high degree of accuracy.

⬐ design-material

The fact that there's an actual genocide taking place in the country is all we need to know - all the other so-called "assumptions" pale in comparison to that reality

⬐ bamboozled

Business people go missing, women who speak our are silenced, climate change is of no concern, concentration camps are real.

We’ve seen enough already.

⬐ legofr

The reason it took more than a year for me to realize this phenomenon is because when I first visited the country then I relied on travel agencies, international hotel booking apps, and had accommodation provided for me. It's certainly possible to live in China for even a decade without realizing the reality of the situation if you exclusively stay at 4-5 star hotels, or only book hotels through international hotel booking apps, or rely on agencies to help you find apartment and other type of accommodation since they have a list of the ones that accept foreigners.

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/starrated-hotel-operation/... claim there are 10 million hotels in China - what percentage do you reckon are included in the international hotel booking apps? My guess would be less than 0.5%. That's why you need to walk into the random hotels/apartments you see on the street if you want to verify the reality of the situation. For you specifically then it might be difficult since you're ethnically Chinese, so while you might encounter some discrimination and exclusion from society (if you don't have a national id card) then it certainly won't be comparable to what white and especially black people experience while living in China. In my experience then the 9/10 number is not an exaggeration at all but if you asked other westerners who visited China then they will likely give different numbers based on their price range, location, booking method, etc.

I also think you greatly exaggerate how much you actually learn about another country by going there for a short trip. Even the most brutal regimes can look like a wonderful paradise, e.g. see the national day celebration in 1959 which took place at a time where tens of millions of people were dying of starvation (https://youtu.be/M-XQSffVpfY?t=43).

⬐ chrischen

I traveled frequently, for short and longer trips (months at a time), as well as having lived there (albeit not on a foreign passport when I lived there).

Most 4-5 star hotels are still dirt cheap in China. We’ve stayed in budget hotels (by Chinese standards) in non first-tier cities with no problem.

I’d say if you got turned away it’d be some combination of obviously looking like a foreigner (in which you could get them reported for some infractions) and not being licensed to accept foreigners.

⬐ unityByFreedom

Yup, only certain hotels are allowed to book foreigners. I tried to buy my way in once, along with some local friends' help, and we couldn't do it. I got the impression the government would shut them down if they accepted foreigners. The staff seemed friendly and understanding, and there was this "nothing I can do" attitude about it. After walking to multiple hotels in the area we gave up and slept on a friend's floor. I forget exactly where we were. It wasn't a well know city, yet it wasn't small either. I was quite surprised at the time that even with my passport in hand I wasn't allowed to stay anywhere there.

> Youtube videos from randos aren't very good sources

Sure

But a rado guy who have not even had the first-hand information, would be an even worse source. That's always been my #1 rule of assessing the reliability of any news reporting.

My point still stands, the mainstream media's report on Xinjiang is lazy, they have no first-hand deep reporting.

Note that the early reporting by Vice is the right approach [1]. But it still suffers from the same inconsideration to the different cultural and political aspects of Chinese society. For example, when reporters are followed by government employees, that's the usual lazy bureaucratic reactions to western media. Those are not evidences of "vanishing Uyghurs".

Instead, if they just pretend to be normal travellers, and hop on trains, on bus, on the street, and gather the information through small talks and gossips with real locals, they'll have much more freedom to reach deeper.

No, they dont think they should be restricted at all. They believe in free press; which was never been established in China since the unification in Qin dynasty. They believe that news reporting is so universally believed that, they would get whatever truth they seek just by showcasing their face.

From a larger scope, government in US enjoys an legitimacy through voting democracy. So they usually do not care much about criticism about their performance from media. Individuals certainly are much more sensitive to such reporting, but that's same for Chinese beauractics.

That's different in China, criticism to government performance is questioning the legitimacy. So the default contract is that media cannot openly criticize government, but individuals are given plenty of channels to ask for improvements.

Essentially, China runs like a big corp. It wont allow individual to openly criticize the leadership. But it allows a lot of channels to offer suggestions.

So the working approach, for US government, is to establish non-public channels, and inquiry the situation directly, and ask for the open dialogue in private. And obviously, that's what George Bush (the old one) did regarding 1989's Tiananmen Protest [5]. Basically, he asked for the information through direct channel, and learned what's going, and assessed from a balanced view.

And frankly, at this stage of China, voting democracy does not work in China. At least 20% of the population who went through Cultural Revolution still believes the fierce class struggle (age older than 45, just given an idea, there is no statistics). (The vocal voices who argue no one likes Cultural Revolution are unanimously intellectuals, who were suffering from the wrong accusations, which is understandable). And the colleague educated population is only 25% for 2 year equivalent, and 14% for 4 year equivalent.

There has never been any successful deployment of voting democracy outside of US for decently sized countries, let alone the largest country on earth.

Once China learned the techniques of organizing the society with more self-directed citizens, the people will naturally ask for more independence. The historical trend has been showing a steadily improvement of Chinese people's awareness of their rights. You may believe in the so-called regression of personal freedom after Xi's ascension to power. But in reality, it's more of a sentiment towards competition with US, not that anyone forgetting what happened before.

And for that, because of the vast size of China, YT videos, even rando ones are more useful than media reports, because they are showing nuances.

As for Daniel, "like laowhy86's mirror universe twin". Exactly, that's what Daniel stands for, and I have the same assessment as well.

But the truth is that, I do watch both. Although laowhy86 has gradually showing behaviors that are based on racial biases, and I no longer follow them only because I no longer follow much of the same content from Daniel and laowhy86 as a whole. Obviously their content is heavily temporary, follows certain trendy topics, and after a while everyone sees the futility to see diversity from individuals, because individuals are always, I mean, shows individual preferences.

> Even the people who bash the MSM rely on it for pretty much all of their information about the outside world.

That's the problem, right? One should start realize that their preferred media might not have the 1st-hand information on other regions of the world. And start looking for that.

I know very well that CCTV does not show negative staff about China. But it's obviously impressive to be able to showcase a lot of real achievement of the Chinese people.

As for US mainstream media, unfortunately, their hostility towards China drove me off just like laowhy86. They simply cannot even consider dial the balance of reporting a little bit.

For example, China was US' defacto ally during the cold war, China countered USSR's influence in Asia, even started a war to Vietnam, who was supported by USSR to invade Cambodia and Thailand. China was the most important ally of US during cold war [3] because of its pressure to USSR from inside the communist bloc. Considering the historical importance of Cold war and its victory by the western world, don't you think China deserves some mentioning. No, never... not even a hint.

Look at also the Dixie Mission [2], which also correctly predicted the outcome of China's political struggle. Given the widespread debate on "who lost China", did anyone give balanced report on Dixie Mission? Very little. I mean, at the time, Mao and CCP like US very much, at least not less than towards USSR. If you read the Dixie Mission report, you might find that the observers actually saw a lot of first-hand situations of the CCP controlled area, that gives a complete picture, not some biased reports by people sitting in the white house or Shanghai's foreign controlled areas. If Dixie report was treated with balanced view, there might not even be a cold war at all... As CCP explicitly seeks the support from US at the time.

> Also, you put far too much weight on "setting foot" somewhere.

No, I have not put enough.

I haven't visited Xinjiang, after the 75 incident [4], because I am concerned about the safety.

I intend to visit Xinjiang myself; and talk to the people. I remain distrust the 1 million Uygur story. But I have no doubt that there are issues within the area that requires continued effort to solve. And I need to see it through my own eyes to be confident about my judgement.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ&ab_channel=VICEN...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Mission

[3] https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/978019...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests

⬐ tablespoon

> My point still stands, the mainstream media's report on Xinjiang is lazy, they have no first-hand deep reporting.

That is demonstrably false. I think the problem is that you expect them to report on this like it was an easy story to report, but it's an extremely difficult story to report because of the interference.

> For example, when reporters are followed by government employees, that's the usual lazy bureaucratic reactions to western media. Those are not evidences of "vanishing Uyghurs".

It's the exact opposite thing to do if you're trying to dispel allegations of such a thing. The interference, on its own, proves nothing, but lends credence to the things that have been learned about through other channels.

> Instead, if they just pretend to be normal travellers, and hop on trains, on bus, on the street, and gather the information through small talks and gossips with real locals, they'll have much more freedom to reach deeper.

I don't think what you describe is actually legal in China. First of all, journalists need to declare themselves by getting a special visa, and its unlikely they could fly under the radar if they worked for a major outlet. Secondly, if they do try that approach the government is going to swarm them with minders and plainclothes police to prevent what you're suggesting.

e.g.:

https://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/30/going-to-com...

> Hoping to hear both sides, Mr. McDonell spent several days traveling across Xinjiang, planning to interview local residents and Chinese officials. Instead, he filmed a segment that communicates the lengths to which the government was willing to go to prevent him from finding out what is really happening in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/insider/china-xinjiang-re... (posted earlier)

There was also one account I read where a journalist had to go through ridiculous lengths to avoid the minders, but that only bought him less than a day (maybe only an hour or two) before they caught up (he traveled at that last minute with no warning and made sudden changes).

> There has never been any successful deployment of voting democracy outside of US for decently sized countries, let alone the largest country on earth.

Huh? I'm sure there are at least a few other countries that would like a word.

> Considering the historical importance of Cold war and its victory by the western world, don't you think China deserves some mentioning. No, never... not even a hint.

It does get mentioned, or at least it did when it was relevant. I mean, this alliance was even mentioned in an action movie from the 80s I watched as a teenager (Red Dawn, about a Soviet Invasion of the US. Some teenage insurgents ask a down piloted who was helping the US fight the Soviets, the answer was only China, not even Europe).

> That's the problem, right? One should start realize that their preferred media might not have the 1st-hand information on other regions of the world. And start looking for that.

But the MSM does have first hand information. For instance, like that gathered from foreign correspondents and foreign bureaus.

> And for that, because of the vast size of China, YT videos, even rando ones are more useful than media reports, because they are showing nuances.

Or are fabricated: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/22/technology/xi...

> These and thousands of other videos are meant to look like unfiltered glimpses of life in Xinjiang, the western Chinese region where the Communist Party has carried out repressive policies against Uyghurs and other predominantly Muslim ethnic minorities. Most of the clips carry no logos or other signs that they are official propaganda....

> A monthslong analysis of more than 3,000 of the videos by The New York Times and ProPublica found evidence of an influence campaign orchestrated by the Chinese government.

> The operation has produced and spread thousands of videos in which Chinese citizens deny abuses against their own communities and scold foreign officials and multinational corporations who dare question the Chinese government’s human rights record in Xinjiang.

> ... Establishing that government officials had a hand in making these testimonials is sometimes just a matter of asking.

> When reached by phone, the man said local propaganda authorities had produced the clip. When asked for details, he gave the number of an official he called Mr. He, saying, “Why don’t you ask the head of the propaganda department?”

> And I need to see it through my own eyes to be confident about my judgement.

And what of things you're not allowed to see?

⬐ justicezyx

> I think the problem is that you expect them to report on this like it was an easy story to report

WTH are you talking about!?

Reporting Xinjiang issue is exceedingly difficult. And western media is extremely lazy about it!

How can you exactly read my statement as polar opposite...

That's why first-hand information is critical. It's extremely hard to get the information. And it's also extremely difficult to categorize and making a coherent analysis on them as well. So that's why laziness is the worst kind of mistake in reporting.

> It's the exact opposite thing to do if you're trying to dispel allegations of such a thing. The interference, on its own, proves nothing, but lends credence to the things that have been learned about through other channels.

Well, if western media has been more objective since 1949, I bet there will be much less interference. Heck, even during cultural revolution, I'd bet there is more comprehensive and balanced reporting on China.

> I don't think what you describe is actually legal in China. First of all, journalists need to declare themselves by getting a special visa, and its unlikely they could fly under the radar if they worked for a major outlet. Secondly, if they do try that approach the government is going to swarm them with minders and plainclothes police to prevent what you're suggesting.

Since when Western treat China laws as enforceable.

Till today, it is reported as China bans FB etc company. But in fact it's FB etc chose to not follow the laws in China, so they essentially shut themselves out...

If you decide to follow Chinese law, why not report within the lines of the state law then. Like daniel dumbrill did? Of course you'll not get much non-compliant reporting. Then why not try something else...

> Huh? I'm sure there are at least a few other countries that would like a word.

Which one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia? The laughing stock of "voting democracy"?

> It does get mentioned, or at least it did when it was relevant. I mean, this alliance was even mentioned in an action movie from the 80s I watched as a teenager (Red Dawn, about a Soviet Invasion of the US. Some teenage insurgents ask a down piloted who was helping the US fight the Soviets, the answer was only China, not even Europe).

Sure 80s, you are old enough to see this.

Ask people born in the 80s, and see what they told you.

I find you being incredibly insensitive to the vastness of US, and even more so to China...

You seem to the kind of people who should start travelling around the country and the world and see how everything is working nowadays...

> But the MSM does have first hand information. For instance, like that gathered from foreign correspondents and foreign bureaus.

You have seen the reporting from MSM, and the results obtained by those correspondents. I seen little first-hand information.

> Or are fabricated

Of course. What do you expect from any information. Heck, even the code I wrote myself requires myself to write tests on them.

> And what of things you're not allowed to see?

What do you want to say?

I am saying the western media are lazy and had little first hand information. You posted me a bunch of summary without concrete information.

And TBH, I have told many people that the western society loses its sense of perspective. And start to not only favor the one-dimentional view point indoctrined in the past centenry, they are now incapable of thinking in different angle altogether.

The example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Las......

The End of History and the Last Man

What a laughable idea from a renowned intellectual.

Ah my mistake I misremembered, it was Vice news not NYtimes. Here's the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

⬐ bingbong70

Saudi style Wahabism takes root, many terrorist attacks take place, and a journalist shows up seeming shocked there is a security presence that is curious about her activities...

Is she clueless about the terrorism? It's barely mentioned. It would be like going to Iraq during the war and not/barely mentioning the insurgents or that a war is taking place for that matter... then acting uncomfortable about the excessive number of armed soldiers.

The most disturbing thing about that video is the ominous music. The kindergarten assumption that "no kids would be in school on a Sunday" justifies calling it a concentration camp or concentration orphanage?

I must say I really don't see the damning evidence, which is why they saved the school footage for the end, they had nothing to use as a climax. Kids chanting "unity among ethnicities" is the least of our worries. TBF, the kids separated from their parents on our southern border look like they are in much worse conditions.

Vice seems to have captured very little interesting footage other than security forces tailing a journalist that was acting suspicious...

⬐ mlindner

So you're just going to move the goalposts rather than respond. Classic Chinese propaganda.

⬐ thefounder

I think Afganistan is a bit more dystopian...children without legs and stuff like that...

⬐ pestatije

This is a case of calling the pan black and forgetting to mention the kettle.

⬐ mytailorisrich

There are many muslims in China [0], all over the country, with some communities dating back almost a thousand years as Islam reached China very early through the silk road and sea trade.

Examples of the 'ancient' presence of Islam in China include the Huaisheng Mosque in Guangzhou [1], and the Niujie Mosque in Beijing [2].

I think that always bringing up the muslim aspect, which in my view is not the main issue at all, is not innocent. Some muslim countries like Pakistan have extremely close ties with China and this may be a way to attempt to turn muslim countries against China.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaisheng_Mosque

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niujie_Mosque

How to compare that with this experience then?

https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ

Also, it's interesting that on Twitter of sharing related articles you'll have Asian people with accounts commenting with very short messages simply saying "you're stupid" or similar without explaining themselves nor actually engaging with the comments - their replies getting 4+ Likes from near bot-looking accounts.

It seems the CCP is working hard to craft the narrative worldwide.

⬐ FooBarWidget

Can you show some of those tweets? I don't think I've ever seen them, so I'm curious.

⬐ actuator

I think those would be easy to find. Most of the accounts will have locations of Chinese mainland and only post good things about China and bad thing about others. Some of them will post funny/beautiful photos/videos to gain following as well. Since Twitter is banned in PRC, why would people be constantly on VPN just to post this stuff. All you need to do is, find state sponsored account, see the users retweeting/liking their tweets like this account: https://mobile.twitter.com/eaglet_CH

There are accounts at a higher level than this, who would make more sense in countering and spread positivity as well.

Few articles about bot networks.

- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-12/china-s-d...

- https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/06/12/182000-...

⬐ dumb1224

I think no one is doubting that, but I have yet to see any tweets from these bots are having any effect at all to turn the topic around (usually it's very one-sided against China). Do you have any examples that it might corrupt the discussion?

Vice also went undercover last year to get footage of Xinjiang in-person: https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ

⬐ abj

"Individuals cannot accept interviews without government approval." [12:06]

Does anyone know if this is a law?

⬐ walrus01

Foreign journalists cannot even enter xinjiang and travel around freely without 24x7 accompaniment by a government employee escort.

⬐ Akababa

If true, that's uncannily reminiscent of North Korea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inebLA3HqPo

⬐ walrus01

https://asiasociety.org/blog/asia/why-its-so-difficult-journ...

https://www.cjr.org/analysis/uighur-xinjiang.php

⬐ Melting_Harps

> Foreign journalists cannot even enter xinjiang and travel around freely without 24x7 accompaniment by a government employee escort.

It's worse than than that now, the CCP kicked out US Media out of China, and those that tried to relocate to HK were not allowed to do so. Under the security law they could be seen to be dissenters and could be held/detained/jailed for crimes against the State.

This coincides with the CCPs tactics, of even its own Citizens who dare to challenge them, this a rather sad albeit predictable story about its highest scoring soccer player who spoke out against China on Tienanmen this year [1].

1: https://bitterwinter.org/the-ccp-should-be-kicked-out-of-hum...

⬐ LifeLiverTransp

There is no law in china. What is called law, is decoration of power..

⬐ thoughtstheseus

I’m not sure about giving but you need a license/approval before you can interview someone. Many western youtubers came under scrutiny for it.

⬐ bgee

> you need a license/approval before you can interview someone

[citation needed]

> Many western youtubers came under scrutiny for it.

came under scrutiny by whom? Their audience or CCP?

Disclaimer: I'm a China national.

⬐ askmike

> > you need a license/approval before you can interview someone

> [citation needed]

So it was stated by a police officer in the video above (I'm assuming it was a real police encounter and not staged, and that the subtitles are correct as he didn't say it in English).

⬐ bgee

That scene is at ~12:00.

For the record those police officers said people can't accept interviews without approval, which is obviously BS.

⬐ abj

This comment is fascinating. It feels like it's written by GPT-3. It almost makes sense at first glance.

If you look at bgee's comment history, all the posts are about China.

> [citation needed] The police officer in the video said that in the video linked above. Mostly I'm curious what China's official position is.

⬐ bgee

Thank you. I consider it a badge of honor when I'm getting attacked simply because of the topics of discussion I choose to engage.

As a non-native English speaker, it also feels content to hear my writing is on par with the state-of-the-art NLP model.

> all the posts are about China

This is materially incorrect. This one is not [0].

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22815243

⬐ zenexer

Their audience. If journalists are forcefully accompanied by government officials, their journalism can be influenced. This irreparably taints the integrity of their work in a way that is often unacceptable to their audience.

⬐ abj

Ah that makes sense, thanks. I was wondering how other western youtubers had channels full of interviews.

⬐ kube-system

A couple of the western Chinese vloggers I used to watch a lot recently fled China after they caught wind that the authorities were looking for them for 'illegal journalism'

⬐ abj

Oh, that's great to know. I didn't realize that was happening. Thanks for the clarification.

⬐ grugagag

This vlogger, his youtube channel is Serpentza lived in China for more than 10 years now had no choice but to leave, otherwise he wouldn’ve been inprisoned or even worse:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWgqdfAomVI

⬐ abj

Thanks for the link, that's too bad. I remember watching his videos years ago. He seemed to really like living in China.

⬐ dumb1224

Yes his early videos were not political but his content changed dramatically in the last two years. He was under scrutiny by other western youtubers in China e.g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOOC1Exk7o to question his recent contents. Not commenting on his opinions just to provide information from both sides.

⬐ kube-system

Given the situation in HK, I find it very believable that it would not be in the best interest for a foreigner living on the mainland to get involved in political criticism — at least - until they leave the country.

⬐ dumb1224

Sure if you believe you're at certain risk. But these channels were talking about Serpentza and his behaviour telling untruth about other vloggers. It has nothing to do with political criticism.

⬐ grugagag

From what I saw with my own eyes he and his fellow blogger were documenting inconvenient truths about China and their lives were in danger to stay any longer there. It is quite dangerous to be even in HK at the moment, the CCP’s armed forces are extremely vicious, perhaps at Xinnie the Pooh’s direct orders, his ego was severely bruised as he’s a sore looser just like our current president. Let’s hope he doesn’t turn into another Mao, thugh it could be even worse..

⬐ dumb1224

My comment wasn't about any political stance he has nor what might cause his journey. It was the interactions with other foreign youtubers in China. And surely the inconvenient truths were at most documented/collated material by serpentza not literally your own eyes if that's fare to say?

⬐ Le0n_

China isn't America, and expecting it to be is asking for trouble. It is one of my favorite countries, personally.

⬐ dumb1224

I don't want to drive more divisive discussion here but if you understand chinese language the edits of the video is not without problems (a little sensationalist if I may say). The local guys are clearly helping the journalists, the normal citizens conversation were quite innocent and used in a way to indicate the editor's views. At the end people were chanting 'Are you chinese', while it should be clearly interpreted as 'Are you a chinese citizen'. The editor clearly wants the viewers to think they are being taught to be Han chinese.

The most dystopian place in the world (VICE reporters undercover: https://youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ).

If only we had some sort of system where we could easily search for such information (unless you live in China, where such results are hidden or monitored)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-puts-uighurs-uyghyrs-musl...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hair-weaves-chinese-prison-camp...

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-suppression-o...

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-u...

Not to mention the UN even acknowledges the existence of the camps and kidnappings.

⬐ getmeoutofhere

1. Where is the hard evidence? I saw a lot of B-roll footage with he-said-she-said, but no hard evidence of the organ harvesting or hair harvesting you claimed in your original post. We cannot rely on testimonials because as history shows [4], testimonials are easily fabricated.

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_(informant)

2. Actually cites the exact same Vice documentary you linked in (1).

3. Cites Rushan Abbas, who worked in Guantanamo and for Radio Free Asia (a literal US propaganda outlet) [5]

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rushan_Abbas

4. Quotes Adrian Zenz, which as I said in my original reply, cannot be considered a quality source. He doesn't speak, read, or write Chinese, and AFAIK hasn't spent anytime in China. His methodology for calculating the population of imprisoned Quighurs consists of interviewing a dozen people for estimations, and then extrapolating these figures across the entire population of Xinjiang. He produces figures, that on the face of it make no sense (1.8 million people imprisoned, three times the size of San Francisco). Is also NPR, which is US funded and cannot be considered an impartial source, given the geopolitical rivalry between China and the US.

As I said earlier, these claims all originate from the same sources (Adrian Zenz, World Uighur Congress), but if you dig into their methodologies or funding sources, you quickly see how murky the details get.

5. Cites Falun Gong, which is a literal cult, akin to Scientology. Experts at the WHO have called into question these claims [6], and the US embassy staff conducted an investigation in 2006 and found no such occurances [7]

[6] https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2016/08/20/transplant...

[7] https://web.archive.org/web/20090620050738/http:/www.america...

#VICENewsTonight China’s Vanishing Muslims: Undercover In The Most Dystopian Place In The World

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

⬐ agakshat

Thank you for sharing that. Really strongly recommend everyone to watch this video, a rare glimpse at the people inside this nightmare

> Almost everything ughyur and xinjiang related has pretty much been shown to be propaganda and from highly questionable sources

Do you have any evidence for that whatsoever? In contrast, here's a very thorough look from an established news source: https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ

What I find chilling is that Uigher children are being kidnapped from their families and sent to barbed wire enclosed camps as well[1].

There, they are subjected to CCP brainwashing[2].

[1] https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ?t=1791

[2] https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ?t=1826

⬐ avanti

Dude, every Chinese schools are like this.. After a while you learn how to anti-brainwashing.

⬐ yahwrong

It's 2019, who cares? Everyone is doing it!

vice did a 30 minute piece on this craziness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

Not OP; I've only come across this in a Vice documentary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

I don't think the surveillance has the explicit purpose of preventing cultural reproduction, but I can imagine it has a chilling effect.

>(are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?)

This question would be simpler to answer if China allowed foreign reporters access to the camps, cities, and provinces where (millions of) Uyghur Muslims are held, such as Xinjiang.

Could you imagine if Chinese reporters were denied to access to, for example, the state of Texas? What if plainclothes Texas Rangers stalked tourists visiting El Paso, and aggressively detained and deported anyone caught interviewing local Hispanics? That’s the type of media blackout which I understand is currently imposed on Xinjiang.

VICE News on the ground:

https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ

Foreign Policy editor, “All of my Uyghur sources are gone”:

https://youtu.be/yQLliXOk1cM

⬐ askmike

> That’s the type of media blackout which I understand is currently imposed on Xinjiang.

I personally think the UN human rights council is at least as important, as the international media's role in fixing human rights problems is debatable. In that light:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/jan/04/trump-administra...

as the article states:

> “They are sending a very dangerous message to other countries: that if you don’t cooperate with UN experts they will just go away. That’s a serious setback to the system created after World War II to ensure that domestic human rights violations could no longer be seen as an internal matter,” Dakwar said.

Maybe China received this message loud and clear?

⬐ _iyig

My point stands: UN human rights inspectors can enter Texas whenever they choose (no formal invite required!), but not Xinjiang. They can interview anyone they meet on the street in the US, but not in many parts of China.

I'd also argue that the role of the UN Human Rights Council (whose recent illustrious members have included Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) is minuscule compared to that of the global press in terms of fomenting any actual change.

⬐ askmike

You mean they can't enter the "educational centers" in Xinjiang? Do you think they can easily enter the "detention centers" in Texas?

> I'd also argue that the role of the UN Human Rights Council (whose recent illustrious members have included Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) is minuscule compared to that of the global press in terms of fomenting any actual change.

I mean the US is also a member, torturing people and commiting war crimes around the clock. Not sure you can dismiss the UN Human Rights Council due to the deeds of some members.

⬐ _iyig

Roughly 1-2 million Uyghur Muslims do not have the luxury of your equivocations, nor your freedom of expression, nor freedom. I encourage you to watch that entire VICE report I linked.

For comparison, here’s VICE News plus a bunch of reporters touring the ICE facility in El Paso:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xweqgn/we-got-cameras-ins...

I’ve been chastised before for energetic commenting on this particular topic, and we’re hardly discussing HK now, so I’ll give it a rest.

Yes, totalitarian dictatorships are a literal alternative to Democracy, though I feel we're nitpicking on the semantics of my words here.

When I say I don't see Totalitarian Dictatorships as an alternative, I don't mean in the literal sense, I mean in the viable sense. In the literal sense, yes, it's an alternative to Democracy. As is building a house on sand is a literal but not viable alternative to building a house on concrete.

I don't think many would want to live under a Chinese authoritarian rule given the Democratic alternatives. Or perhaps they would until they're rounded up in Xinjiang camps, shot in the face with rubber bullets for wanting to protect their current way of life or ran over by Tanks by asking for change to better their way of life.

But if we've seen what the conversations that are occurring in China about these violent acts taken by the CCP, it's clear the populace think it's in their best interests at this time. Though it's worth adding that the message we receive about the CCP's actions is very different to those living in China. I recommend anyone to watch the documentary created by Vice below about the atrocities that are occurring in Xinjiang and the first hand opinions of those that live there.

I would guess the opinions of those being interviewed are honest with a side of oppression.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ

⬐ ospider

Speaking of documentaries, I would recommend BBC's The People's Republic of Capitalism [1].

[1]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtf2H4YrYVw

⬐ chrischen

China is not a totalitarian dictatorship.

⬐ LilBytes

No?

Definition:

Totalitarianism is a political concept of a mode of government that prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life.

⬐ chrischen

> I don't think many would want to live under a Chinese authoritarian rule given the Democratic alternatives. Or perhaps they would until they're rounded up in Xinjiang camps, shot in the face with rubber bullets for wanting to protect their current way of life or ran over by Tanks by asking for change to better their way of life.

There's an easy way to find out. Go poll the Chinese people. To be honest many Chinese do want to leave, but only because the country has been poor and most western countries are wealthy. This has been lessening over time.

Coincidentally, I watched this vice news documentary earlier today that shows the current situation in China: https://youtu.be/v7AYyUqrMuQ through undercover reporting.

⬐ thoughtstheseus

It’s sad to see technology used in such an invasisve manner to target minorities.

⬐ bobx11

It’s amazing how effectively they were followed around by so many people.

At the start of the video, you might think “well, the USA has concentration camps so who are they to point a finger” but by the end you realize how huge a scale and intentional this program is in China.

If this is all accurate, people should definitely watch this video to completion.