HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ erikb

funny just watched this yesterday night. Was really surprised by it. When you live in Berlin it's not something you see that yet. But of course Berlin is a more green city than something of the size of New York just by being smaller.

⬐ asciimo

My first thought is that it might be hard to prevent decay and leaks into the structures supporting these spongy surfaces. 80cm of water logged soil above a parking garage, for example.

⬐ sologoub

The renderings they are showing for newer plans (at 1:27 of the video) seem to indicate a soil later running a long the wall of the building, in addition to the roof. As the result water would naturally travel down that wall and into the surrounding soil, preventing the buildup on the roof and negating need for a traditional drain.

That said, what would be required to make sure no barrier formed, say from the roots system or something else is really hard to say.

You'd also need some sort of lining that would prevent the moisture from being obsorbed by the building materials themselves.

⬐ wongarsu

Planting grass on top of parking garages isn't that unusual or new in Germany (though usually done for aesthetic reasons), so I assume this is a solved problem.

Sufficiently deep buildings and parking garages might also encounter ground water, so adding soil on top might not even add new problems to the engineering side.

Similarly, the rooftop plants are shown on rooftop designs that would already have to deal with stagnating water

⬐ mkesper

Municipalities can (and commonly do) grant a reduction of fees for reducing sealed soil, so it's not only aesthetic reasons. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederschlagswassergeb%C3%BChr

⬐ doener

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15128428

⬐ onjgdch

What a shitty comment. Who cares about your submission? He won the front page lottery. Deal with it, don't passive-aggressively link to yours.

⬐ spraak

You're somewhat right, but still assuming/inferring a lot into their comment. And you weren't very kind about it.

⬐ s3nnyy

Nice project, it makes Berlin appear like a progressive, nice place to live. But actually it has so many problems that should be solved first before even thinking about things like this. For instance total failure to integrate the Muslim minority, increasing racism against Jews (Men usually wear a baseball-cap over the Kippah in public due to fear of being beaten up), prices that double each 7-10 years while salaries stay the same and an angry lower-middle class that thinks Politicians don't understand anything.

⬐ fapjacks

Prices doubling every 7-10 years, and Berlin is still by far the cheapest big city in Europe to do anything in. I love going to Berlin because it's so cheap to do everything.

⬐ madez

Germany as a whole has a pathetic relationship towards cultures and religions. Due to the excessive guilt-culture it is political suicide to openly criticize some obvious problems. There is also widespread over-tolerance and leniency with regards to religious or cultural excuses and demands for privileges. Germany is currently a non-secular state with strong dogmatic public-opinion in some areas.

⬐ steveeq1

Interesting. What, specifically, do Germans have an over-tolerance and leniency for?

Curious from a cultural perspective.

⬐ madez

For example for families that don't want their girls to take part in physical education including swimming.

Another example is animal slaughter according to tradition that would be illegal due to cruelty without religious excuse.

Yet another example is permission to build mosques including permission for adhan. Without religious excuses you are not allowed to do equivalent things because it is sound pollution. A simple majority of germans is officially atheist. No, Germany doesn't need mosques just because it has churches, yet some politicians say so.

These are just some examples I'm aware of. However, I feel the underlying cause: guilt-culture. It starts with indoctrination in school and is semi-official part of the German state. I hope it will end soon.

⬐ throwawayknecht

> increasing racism against Jews

This is true.

> Men usually wear a baseball-cap over the Kippah in public

But this is right-wing bullshit.

The rise in anti-Semitic crimes is used by Pegida to stir up fear of refugees, Muslims, and Islam, and it's also used by Netanyahu and the Israeli / Jewish right to encourage immigration to Israel.

The reality is that the rise in anti-Semitism begins in 2014, prior to the refugee crisis. It's tracked the Europe-wide rise of the right, not anything related to "Muslim integration" (which in turn is often a code-word for not letting other people wear other kinds of head coverings). Much of it is even linked to Pegida-adjacent groups or people.

⬐ _pmf_

> It's tracked the Europe-wide rise of the right, not anything related to "Muslim integration"

Go to any schoolyard and observe members of which ethnic groups use anti-semitic slurs. (I'm not talking about "more frequent", I'm talking about using them at all.)

I seriously implore you to think about what it would be like to be a Jewish pupil in certain districts of Köln or Berlin and implore you to say with a straight face that anti-semitism is caused by the (far-)right.

⬐ honestoHeminway

There was always a strong anti-semitic vibe in community who migrated from the middle east. But hey, no need to call it out- its part of there culture. Like its part of pegidas culture to squash the left who was idiotic enough to welcome every radical conservative as long as he had exotic flair.

⬐ fgjjgutjvnu

citation?

⬐ s3nnyy

Ehm, you won't see any Kippah in public because Jews in Germany are scared since decades. I did not say anything about refugees or recent events although these things surely amplified the bad things already happening in Germany since a long time.

Go stand next to a (usually Police guarded) Synagogue for an hour and see for yourself how guys leaving the thing put on baseball caps. Unfortunately, this is not right-wing bullshit.

⬐ steveeq1

I don't get it, aren't germans super-touchy about nazi issues and the holocaust? I would imagine jews would be in some sort of "protected class" status in germany, at least culturally.

⬐ s3nnyy

They are but it's usually not Germans who beat up and insult Jews: http://www.focus.de/familie/mobbing/religioese-spannungen-en...

⬐ None

None

⬐ socialist_coder

I wonder how that is true given that Berlin has an extremely large and militant Antifa presence.

I can't imagine anyone getting away with a hate crime here. If your store is even suspected of selling fascist stuff it gets vandalized!

Berlin is about the biggest anti-fascist place I know.

⬐ prewett

Isn't forcible suppression of opposition a characteristic of fascism? Sounds like antifa are, themselves, fairly fascist.

⬐ notfromhere

can't be tolerant of intolerance if you want tolerance to survive

⬐ prewett

Tolerance means that you can tolerate opposing views, that you respect the people who have them. Violence against people you disagree with is intolerance, and is the way of fascism (among others). You cannot create tolerance through intolerance. You can control people through violence and intolerance, but control is the opposite of tolerance.

⬐ s3nnyy

Right-wing extremism is bad but negligible compared to uneducated Muslims. There are 5 million Muslims in Germany and 32% say openly they prefer a Sharia-state to a German-democratic state (http://www.br.de/nachrichten/emnid-studie-tuerken-koran-grun...). The left is blind to this because they think it's America's/Europes fault that they behave so badly.

⬐ cobookman

He never said refugees. I'd also comment France and other eu countries have done no better with their newer Muslim populations

⬐ lorenzfx

This study [0] (sorry it's in German, English reporting on it: [1, 2]) supports your claim that integration is more or less equally bad across the studied countries. Different countries fail at different aspects of it.

[0] http://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publi...

[1] https://www.thelocal.de/20170824/integration-of-muslims-bett...

[2] http://www.politico.eu/article/muslims-integrate-in-europe-d...

EDIT: originally I misread that OP claimed that other countries did better, changed wording accordingly

⬐ elliotec

You're proving the parent's point. They said those EU countries do NO better.

⬐ lorenzfx

you are right, I should learn to read.

⬐ fgjjgutjvnu

Completely unrelated issues, it seems to me. Even unintegrated Muslims and persecuted Jews benefit from a cooler city.

Prices could probably rise even more, though, if the sponge approach makes the city more attractive.

⬐ gizmo

Your argument is a total non-sequitur. Work to make a city more ecologically friendly is completely independent from whatever social problems there are. You can use this argument to oppose literally anything except for whatever issue is from your perspective the most important. You can't govern a city this way.

Your claim about salaries staying the same is plainly false. See for instance https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wages

For prices to double every 7 to 10 years we're talking 7% to 10% inflation year over year. In reality inflation is below 2%.

Your assertions about the Muslim community in Berlin are baseless, hateful, and totally offtopic.

⬐ s3nnyy

I never said anything about inflation. Here example: Octoberfest-beer-prices doubled since 2002 (introduction of €) (https://t.co/Y2tMS4h623), while wages only rose 25% (http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-sit...).

⬐ Angostura

Clearly the answer is to increase the proportion of the population who are Muslim, to reduce the demand for beer and bring the price down. At least, I think that's the point you were trying to make.

⬐ majewsky

Which is relevant because, as anyone knows, Germans spend a significant amount of their salaries on Oktoberfest beer. m(

⬐ s3nnyy

I can pull up prices for other goods, too if you want. Especially rents (in e.g., Munich where I lived all my life) went up similarly while salaries stagnate. Munich rents are on par with Swiss rents, which is crazy if one looks at the difference in salaries.

Luckily, now I live in Zurich, which is prosperous like Germany 30-40 years ago. Full disclaimer: I run a tech recruiting agency that focuses on matching engineers with jobs in Zurich (job-page: https://coderfit.com/openedjobs/, Medium post: "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...)

⬐ Dylan16807

Do you think the basket of goods used to calculate inflation is wrong? Because the cost of everyday expenses is the definition of inflation.

⬐ KGIII

Their post is also a fallacy of relative privation, IIRC. It's been years since debate club, but I think that's the name. 'There's kids starving in Africa!'

⬐ s3nnyy

Agree my argument is partly a "fallacy of relative privation" but at least it's still about Berlin.

⬐ visarga

What happens to the plants during the summer if there is too little rain? Do they also install watering systems? That would be expensive to maintain.

⬐ dom0

Berlin was a sump before becoming a city, it still has ground water almost up to ground level in some areas. Has a bunch of pumping stations to lower ground water, too.

⬐ wongarsu

The grass areas will need occasional watering in the summer, but most of the plants shown look like robust native species that can survive summer without problems

⬐ russdill

The suitability and cost of the technique will vary by climate.

⬐ hibbelig

This is Berlin! Too little rain? I don't think so.

⬐ ninju

The problem you are talking about is different and can be solved with traditional means (i.e. sprinklers) if needed. But due the fact the prior rain water is present on site for a longer time instead of being drained off in sewers they may not need to run the sprinklers as often (another benefit!)

⬐ b4ux1t3

What generally happens to most wild plants during the summer? Most of them can survive a few dry spells.

⬐ ekianjo

The video only shows relatively small buildings - would that system work with high rise towers?

⬐ F_r_k

High towers have got the same land footprint, so yeah, it would work

⬐ ekianjo

Land footprint, yes, but they do have higher volume to surface ratios and that should play some role in heat absorption and dissipation I think.

⬐ probably_wrong

Not answering your main question, but the video shows relatively small buildings because that's what Berlin looks like[1]. High rise towers are not very common there.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Berlin_P...

⬐ jorleif

These kinds of techniques are often claimed to be effective against flash floods, which makes sense since they slow down water transfer to rivers. Does anyone know any studies about how effective it could be against seriously heavy precipitation of the scale of Harvey or South Asia floods right now? In other words, how well does the approach scale?

⬐ ethagknight

Civil engineering has pretty well quantified the rate at which water is absorbed by certain soils, accounting for groundcover, trees, pavement, local detainment, etc. Berlin's sponge mission is baiscially distributed detainment, working to offset hardscaping (driveways and roofing). In other words, it's a well known and very predictable science, but we (we being US land development industry) has not cared. HOWEVER rain at the scale of Harvey cannot practically be planned for beyond "don't build on land that's lower than average"

⬐ None

None

⬐ Declanomous

Well, that's partly true. A lot of the flooding is due to the fact that the entirety of Texas doesn't care about hydrology, and all that water is ending up downstream, in Houston.

There'd still be flooding, and it would still be bad, but a certain degree of flooding was avoidable.

⬐ ethagknight

Eh it is wholly true. Distributed detention schemes still have a finite volume of containment, and once the detention zones are saturated, those areas behave equally to pavement for each additional unit of water. 50 inches of water across the majority of Texas with severe storm surge cannot be practically prepared for beyond insurance, evacuation, and/or a boat. To say “it was avoidable” is a strong and expensive assertion requires some hard backup. Heres an introduction to runoff coefficient (disclaimer! exciting stuff!). Everything is based on a “design storm” with a specified duration and intensity, where those two variables lead to a sigmoid curve (as i recall) for runoff, or the greater the intensity and longer the duration, the less water that gets detained. http://www.brighthubengineering.com/hydraulics-civil-enginee...

⬐ downrightmike

Deregulation at work

⬐ microcolonel

The other thought, I imagine, is that they felt the probability was low that they would see a flood of this scale even within their lifetime; that ended up being a poor bet. Even so, flood insurance is also cheaper when the perceived likelihood of a flood is low.

⬐ robotresearcher

Since cities usually survive much more than one human lifetime, this is not good reasoning.

⬐ microcolonel

People build houses, cities don't.

⬐ robotresearcher

As you almost certainly know, the city controls permissions for every building.

A city that gives planning permission for a development that is probably going to be destroyed with loss of life in the next hundred years is not serving people well.

⬐ Retric

Every inch of rain absorbed makes a rather dramatic difference. Because, floods are moving a lot of water but they also contain a lot of water which is time shifted over a longer period of time.

Think of it like a building being evacuated though a stairwell. Being say 10 vs 11 floors can make a significant difference in average wait time. Except average weight time is equivalent to the height of flood waters.

⬐ zerohm

I remember a demonstration from my childhood where water is released into 2 similar models. One model is dry, one model is wet. The water quickly overtakes the dry model and splashes on the other side (as in a flash flood). On the wet model, water takes longer to make it to the other side. Sort of how a wet sponge is far more absorbent than a dry sponge.

I know I didn't really answer your question, but these models were made to represent fields and swamps. So yes, I believe there are lots of studies on large scale effects.

⬐ mattferderer

I don't know of any studies but I would imagine a lot of variables come into play.

Soil Type & how deep of soil effects how much water the ground can soak up & how fast the water will run. All would be slower runoff than concrete.

Also the slope of the land would make a difference.

These are just the obvious ones. Bottlenecks, whether created on purpose or not would have a huge impact. Where I live we have large snowfall in the winter which creates ice jams & flash flooding in the spring.

I personally like the idea of this.

⬐ the-dude

Interesting, but no new ideas. These rain water management ideas are being implemented for a couple of years now in The Netherlands when developing new real estate.

⬐ haakon

And The Netherlands probably got the idea from China: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/oct/01...

⬐ vanderZwan

Hopefully they steal good ideas from all over the place. The video mentions swales, which is a mainstay of permaculture, which has been tried out in various ways all over the world since the 70s.

⬐ mbroncano

Also of note, the water system built after the 50's as a result of the recurring floodings in the area [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works

⬐ Gravityloss

It is such a joy to see a methodical and rational long term planning response to a problem.

⬐ honestoHeminway

Makes one wish there was a longterm planning organ in a democracy, who could veto on short term solutions.

⬐ vanderZwan

What's your point? They acknowledge taking inspiration from another city where they already implemented this 20 years ago, that these particular ways of coping with climate change are considered proven technology, and that the only thing preventing more wide-spread adoption is political will.