HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

The legendary GDC talk, The Prototype that was Banned from Halfbrick, describes the unpleasant adversarial effects of some multiplayer games like this, and how they can escalate to be really unpleasant experiences for all involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9WMNuyjm4w

⬐ geocrasher

Wow. Have never seen this. Thanks for the link!

> Trying to work out which of my colleagues would betray me

An interesting GDC presentation on a similar subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9WMNuyjm4w

Sounds close to what happened at halfbrick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9WMNuyjm4w

⬐ Eridrus

Seems very similar to the classic board game Diplomacy[0], which had similar, though not as drastic results, when we played it at work, though we played 1 move every 3 days, so it had a much smaller impact on productivity since there's only so much strategising you can do over a single move, and you only got new concrete information every 3 days.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)

⬐ db48x

I was thinking of Diplomacy/Machiavelli too. Machiavelli nearly ruined some Christmasses, but I still want to get it out and play it again...

⬐ terminado

Diplomacy is mentioned by an audience member briefly during the Q/A session at the end of the video, near the ~49 minutes mark.

⬐ db48x

Yep. That saved me from having to do it, which would have been awkward at this point.

I think the major difference between the two is that in Diplomacy/Machiavelli you can't give your armies to someone else the way you could give your actions to someone else in the tank tactics prototype. That prevents the chaining, but wow, it still makes for a fun family gathering when you "accidentally" move to the wrong place and your "enemy" and your "ally" wipe each other out.

⬐ hprotagonist

This immediately came to mind for me, too.

You should check out the This American Life episode about Diplomacy, in which an actual diplomat is recruited to advise... https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/531/...

⬐ jszymborski

I'm not entirely sure I agree with their overarching philosophy that games should never "make you feel upset at times". Obviously it should leave you with an overall good feeling, which is something I think is attested to by it's popularity (unless their is a reward mechanism I'm missing here).

And while the fact that this was played in an office context was addressed, I think they under attributed it's affect. I think there are two major problems that are addressed by moving this into a general public, MMO context:

(1) Productivity Loss I mean, this can almost entirely be addressed to the context. The game exists only at work, and so you can only play it when you are supposed to be working.

(2) Negative Effects of Friend/Work relationships I expect from people I've nurtured friendships and work relationships a certain amount of respect and loyalty. From a faceless internet foe, I expect nothing.

I find the coddling attitude slightly frustrating, and I think that if video games are to be considered art, they need to be able to hurt us if they ever want to be able to lift us up. Art is a proxy for life experience, and in my opinion, good art leaves you changed.

Obviously, it's bad if it leaves you with crippling depression or paranoia, but certainly some level of sadness and anxiety is critical for it to have any meaning.

One thing, however, that I do think is important is knowing what you're getting yourself into. If I feel I'm in a certain head space where being deceived or betrayed in any context would result in me feeling particularly shitty, then I wouldn't want to play Diplomacy any more than I would want to watch Lynch's Eraserhead. In that respect, I feel like artists are a little responsible to represent the experiences that are commonly felt in the consumption of their art.

⬐ kazagistar

It depends entirely on what kind of game you are making. There is clearly a market and demand for simple, fun, positive experiences. But there is also a massive market for games exactly like LoL and DotA and CS:GO, where a major part of the experience is failing, losing, feeling horrible about it, and then trying to do better next time. There is an urge for game designers to try to mitigate negative experiences, but in doing so, they make the game. You can't have the feeling of a competative game that ends in a crushing victory without the feeling of crushing defeat.

⬐ foolrush

It is an hour long, but whoa, is this presentation excellent, illuminating, frightening, and absolutely compelling.

Can't help but draw analogies to politics and many other things.

Great post.

⬐ mrspeaker

Yes, really interesting video - I watched the whole thing (and it was good), but I think the first 20-odd minutes are the best for HN... makes me want to try this at my work!

⬐ None

None

⬐ bballard1337

Wow, I'm impressed lol. They went through some serious measures to gain an advantage. Such a simple concept and it has the power to turn friends into enemies. Reminds me of back when I use to play Mario Kart battle mode with friends, let's just say there was screaming and possible throwing of controllers lol.

⬐ zitterbewegung

Don't we see a lot of similar behavior on mmos like Eve Online ? I agree with the other commenters that the game may not have all its detrimental effect if it came to market.

⬐ JimmyAustin

We played a game of Neptune's Pride, and had a similiar result, with a few differences. Neptune's Pride is played over 24 hours, and most actions (attacking/moving ships) require a great deal of time. It's also completely deterministic.

Highlights include: - People covertly supplying weapons technology to the people fighting their allies to prolong the conflict, so that they would be weaker when they had to betray them. There was a lot of dealings at the coffee machine regarding trading technology. - A cold war standoff between myself and our lead frontend dev. I'd setup an ambush by setting up ships on a star out of his radar range, but close enough that I would be able to reinforce the juicy target I had setup for him. The only catch was that I only had an hour to move the reinforcements once he began his attack, so I had to constantly watch the game. We had a Game Of Thrones finale event that I was going to attend, but he skipped. Knowing I would be distracted, he launched the attack 15 minutes after the scheduled start of watching the finale. Luckily I checked the game on my phone in the middle, saw the incoming attack and was able to defend successfully.

This kicked off people checking the game as the last thing they did before they went to bed, and the first thing they did in the morning. A few of us even set alarms so we could launch surprise attacks.

We definitely had a similar sort of breakdown of relations. There were accusations of screen-cheating (if you can call looking at a map of everything in your empire on a 27" monitor in the middle of an open-office screen-cheating). One game even collapsed into anarchy when one of the players dropped out rather then attack one of her coworkers.

Either way, it was a ton of fun. Definitely wasn't great for productivity though.

⬐ djsumdog

Wow. That's a really good talk. It evokes thoughts of the famous prison experiment .. not that extreme though. :-P