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I saw his talk on GDC (Game Developers Conference) about this exact topic - it made it to my bookmarks list!

It's called Failing to Fail: The Spiderweb Software Way[0] for anyone curious.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

⬐ markus_zhang

Yeah he is really good at game development but he is even better at game business handling than most of the people out there (including me). I think he also shared some of the revenue numbers and you can see they are good, but never good enough for retirement. That's the best an average indie developer can get IMHO.

⬐ muzani

I buy all the Spiderweb games but rarely finish any. He's sadly top 5% though with an incredible work ethic and great games. Most won't be able to make a living off the craft.

⬐ markus_zhang

I do the same. Actually I only started playing the first game. I guess most Indie developers will go out of the business after or even before the first release, so sad :(

The author did a great GDC talk about being an indie developer in the brick and mortar, pre-steam days. He talks at one point about how people had to buy a shareware cd from some kiosk, then phone him, argue about the price, mail him a cheque or money order, then wait for a cdrom in the mail to buy a game from him back then, but he made it work and is still going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

The author of the article, Jeff Vogel, is a few steps (25 years) ahead of you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs (like the article, a humour-laced talk, enjoyable)

⬐ wly_cdgr

Looks fantastic, thank you for sharing!

Here's a random favorite of mine, as a thank you: https://youtu.be/_4iswqa8r-Q

Not a business talk, but a design deep dive from a genre master. Existential breakdown starts ~20:30

> I don't have that much cash on hand. Nowhere near.

After watching his recent very interesting GDC talk* - he mentioned high six-figures income ($800K+). I guess he spends a lot :)

EDIT: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

⬐ bscphil

Do you have a link? Assuming he is being honest in this article I have to assume he misspoke in the talk - surely "high five figures" is a more accurate summary of what's in the post.

⬐ zerr

Updated the comment.

⬐ maccard

Link: https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594

Looks like a very specific number to misspeak in the talk. It's in the slides.

⬐ zimpenfish

Do you have a timestamp? I downloaded the (auto-CC) transcript but can't find anything relevant in that text.

⬐ maccard

https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594

⬐ vidarh

That's pre-inflation adjusted $750k gross, at a point with 3 employees. Take of cost of sales, marketing etc. and it will be ok but not massive per person (but also note he calls that $750k result "life changing"), and he also points out they have an ongoing cycle of peaks and troughs, and his 2011 numbers coincided with what he described as the "Indie bubble", and an initial burst from getting on Steam, and points out he sold more for a while, and then less again. He makes the point earlier in the video that the ~$200k/year mark inflation adjusted number is closer to the norm for them across his career.

I recall that post (I've been a fan of JV's work, and his blog, for a long time!) but that's ten years old now and the market has gotten more competitive. I think that post is actually pre-Steam, though might push it the other way--I recall that he did really well for himself early on after going to Steam.

He has a really good GDC talk that goes into more detail and might shed light on why he operates the way he does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

A nice related video is his GDC 2018 talk "failing to fail", over on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

I don't particularly like the art that his games use (and I also grew up on Ultima) but I'm 100% behind the idea that if "trying for better art" (and note that "better" in no way guarantees "something people will call good") means putting the entire business at risk, only someone with no sense of responsibility and no understanding of the value of a dollar would take that risk. Not in year one, and still not in year 25.

You should also see his GDC talk, “Failing to Fail”. Jeff Vogel is amazing: https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs

Jeff is an enjoyable speaker, his latest GDC talk is fantastic (and a better version of this blog post). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

⬐ f00zz

This is a great talk! Very inspiring, thanks for sharing the link.

Great talk from the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

> In this GDC 2018 talk, Spiderweb Software's Jeff Vogel presents a retrospective on his company's history and how they've managed to stay in the game-making business since 1994.

There are probably economies of scale, sure, which is part of why Epic can get away with a lower fee for now. But it's also just business. They know how much it costs without economies of scale, and that sets a floor.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs Here's a talk from a very old indie company, there's one section talking about how they existed pre-Steam (and other stores they use since Steam's not exclusive) and appreciate what it's enabled.

⬐ lapnitnelav

With the right time : https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=1564

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

And I don't, tbh, have an opinion about the rest of your post; I'm talking about Steam, not Apple.

But, having gone down this road myself (and why I cite the Jeff Vogel talk): you would almost certainly spend more than 30% on customer support and payment processing and fraud protection and accounting. Or you would do it incorrectly, which is worse. And, regardless, you'd expose yourself to a way smaller audience. It seems to me to be a good way to shoot yourself in the foot for no gain (and as an app developer myself I certainly wouldn't bother).

Jeff Vogel from Spiderweb Software gave an awesome retrospective on 24 years of creating old-school-style fantasy RPGs at GDC 2018:

"Failing to Fill: The Spiderweb Software Way" https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs

Jeff Vogel from Spiderweb Software have an awesome retrospective on his games and company at GDC 2018:

"Failing to Fill: The Spiderweb Software Way" https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs

I'm pretty sure it's not the talk you're thinking of, but Jeff Vogel (who has been mostly-successfully making indie games consistently since 1995) mentions it in this GDC vault talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

They were able to stop paying a third employee when they went to Steam. That's a lot of value to the business.

⬐ cheez

> They were able to stop paying a third employee when they went to Steam. That's a lot of value to the business.

They were able to stop paying? Doesn't that mean they make less money?

⬐ Retric

Revenue is fairly useless it’s profit that you care about. Having less employees also means less effort managing them.

⬐ cheez

Ah I see.

⬐ eropple

They also made more money, even with Steam's cut.

People are expensive. (Hence the whole "oncoming economic doom" thing.)