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Would you give them a bakfiets?

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je1ThOYD8Ic

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA

⬐ woevdbz

Maybe? Good luck charging one of those in an apartment building

⬐ Kim_Bruning

Depends on the apartment building I think?

A lot of apartments I've looked at come with some form of lockable storage space on the ground floor.

That is actually extremely common in the Netherlands. [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA

Get a bakfiets https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA

⬐ klondike_klive

My dad used to take me and my sister to the local market (to buy food, not to sell us, you understand) on one of these in the 70s in London. He called it the Long John. The basket was a much wider, lower version than this though, and quite uncomfortable, but exciting! I have very early memories of people pointing and laughing at us as we went past.

⬐ CalRobert

Just the video I was hoping for. That's the plan! After moving somewhere less hostile to people. Rode 30km with my kids in a Gazelle Cabby last week and they loved it!

In the meantime, it's not going to help them survive getting run over by a Land Rover on this road https://twitter.com/fuzzbizzed/status/1561650019811430400

⬐ jacquesm

In the morning at grade school it looks like a bakfiets parking lot these days. There are easily 50 of them in all shapes and sizes, including two wheel ones (more maneuverable but tricky to ride and balance with a lot of weight in them).

When I was a kid a bakfiets was a huge affair, always three wheeled, essentially a small person powered truck, and in Amsterdam they were super common for people working on the various open air markets and to haul produce and freight all over the city. Specialty versions were used to sell fish and bread from. These were large, with a bed about 1 meter wide, 1.5 meters long and a frame that weighed in at 35 Kg. It wasn't rare at all to see people move house using a bakfiets.

We even had a profession called a 'brugop', someone who helps heavily loaded cargo bikes up the (many) bridges because you'd run out of momentum. Typically you'd get a dime for this and lots of kids made spare change doing this, but there were also adults doing it to live off.

Over time, as minivans became more affordable the cargo bikes dropped in popularity, there was a hybrid moped/motorcycle bakfiets for a while and then they disappeared almost completely except as promotional devices or curiosities.

Enter the Danish freezone Christiania where a bunch of artists and other people had the need for a cheap and environmentally friendly form of cargo transportation.

A birthday present started off a trend that spread amongst the bike friendly countries in Western Europe:

https://www.christianiabikes.com/uk/about-us/our-history/

⬐ brnt

Bakfietsen are bikehummers; frankly I don't know of anyone being a huge fan of their daily use (except those who use them?). Takes up too much (rack) space.

⬐ fanf2

We have a long bakfiets (https://www.bakfiets.nl/modellen/cargobike-lang/cargobike-cl...) and I don’t remember it being tricky to ride or balance. It took one or two tries to get the hang of setting off, but the most difficult thing was getting used to its huge turning circle!

These days I would recommend an electric assist version, though our old-skool model helps to keep me fit.

⬐ throw0101a

> We have a long bakfiets

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_bike#Long_John_bicycle

⬐ fanf2

I linked to the product page for the model we own - it's mildly confusing that bakfiets is both a brand name and a generic term.

⬐ touisteur

Yeah, bakfiets now call their long version the 'bakfiets long' and the short version (that I have) 'bakfiets short'.

⬐ tokai

>both a brand name and a generic term

Just say cargo bike. It's a bad name for a generic term. There is really no need for everything cycling related to be NL related.

⬐ waspight

I second this. Also have one, it is not much different to ride than a regular bike.

⬐ jacquesm

I have no problem with it, but I know people that do, either because they are (much) slighter of build or because they are not such experienced cyclists. Kids moving around can upset your balance and that is something some people have a hard time correcting for. Fortunately COG is low so the effect is limited but I can see how for some it can be problematic.

The turning radius is indeed another issue with those, their wheelbase rivals that of a (large) car, and you can't make very sharp turns. Trikes have similar issues, quick corners should be avoided and going downhill you really want to moderate your speed because the tadpole arrangement isn't very stable and it's super easy to flip a bakfiets at high speed.

⬐ DanielHB

I have an e-bike and a couple that are friends of mine have one of those bakfiets, the video is 100% accurate. These friends of mine even sold their car after having the bakfiet for a year.

Of course you are much more limited on where you live vs where you need to go compared to a car, but the cost difference is so dramatic you can literally afford to move (especially in places where car-parking is not free). But you do need decent biking infrastructure because those things are not drivable in heavy car-traffic streets (especially with children or pets in the basket)

I myself live around 6km from my job and used to take public transportation to work, my (upper-end) e-bike paid itself in 2 years from not needing to pay public transport

⬐ prmoustache

I have been contemplating buying a bullit cargo bike for years but on all but one place I lived I would have had the storage required to store it inside. Can't see leaving a 5 to 8K€ bike in the streets.

I am using a trailer and some front and back panniers instead. It is not entirely as practical as a cargo bike when you need the cargo but it is impressive the amount of shit you can still carry and the trailer is stored when unused.

⬐ Doctor_Fegg

The Tern GSD can be stood upright, on its end, with the handlebars folded over, to reduce storage space. Not cheap but outstandingly good bikes.

⬐ DanielHB

Almost all e-bikes and cargo bikes have removable batteries. The bike is usually not worth stealing if you take the battery out (a battery replacement will cost more than the thief could sell an used bike for and it is not that easy to flip parts)

My e-bike is pretty expensive, but removing the battery, a good lock and insurance let me sleep easily with my bike outside

Although I would say the main reason to NOT leave it outside is rain and snow, it damages the gearbox and chain. If you oil regularly it alleviates the problem a bit

⬐ Semaphor

> The bike is usually not worth stealing if you take the battery out

E-Bikes without batteries are worth less (to thieves) than normal bikes? Because regular bikes, even very basic models, get stolen all the time.

⬐ m000

Regular bikes are lower risk to steal and easier to sell: The owner is less likely to go after you, and the purchaser also less likely to ask for proof of ownership.

Stealing a bakfiets is pretty much like stealing a car: you need to have operate in a network to make a profit. Otherwise you are stuck with an expensive stolen bicycle, with the owner very likely trying to track you, and nobody willing to buy it without you proving that you own it.

⬐ Semaphor

That makes sense, thank you.

⬐ dotancohen

How is it that we have normalized leaving the car out at night, but not the bicycle? What would it take to normalize the bicycle as well? Proper parking spots with locks, not simply ad-hoc sidewalk space?

Cars have just as many, if not more, parts to steal without moving the vehicle.

⬐ MagnumOpus

Grand Theft Auto is prosecuted as a felony and gets you sent to jail. Bike theft even of a $5k bike gets zero prosecution and lots of ridicule of the victim by police.

⬐ abdullahkhalids

My idea to reduce theft is that the city should provide not just the bike racks, but also the bike locks with those racks. Which means thieves have the option of either cutting the bike frame, or destroying city property which the police would probably have to actually pursue more seriously and which might be treated as a felony.

⬐ prmoustache

The best idea to reduce theft is make selling stolen items more difficults. Most bike thieves don't keep the bikes for themselves.

Which means global mamdatory ownership registration.

Having said that it is very easy to steal only a handful of parts with mostly basic tools but I guess we could also have a tool to associate parts with ownership using serial numbers.

The rest is just bandaid.

⬐ dotancohen

  > Which means global mamdatory ownership registration.

As a private citizen, this sounds like an excuse for a surveillance state.

⬐ prmoustache

This is done for real estate or cars, do we talk about surveillance state?

⬐ Symbiote

It can be done after the theft.

The shop writes the serial number of the bike (stamped on the frame) on the receipt.

If the bike is stolen, the owner reports the number to the police. The police can check any bike in their database of stolen bikes [1].

People purchasing second hand bikes will be wary if the seller doesn't have the original receipt. They can also check the frame numbers in the police database [1].

[1] https://politi.dk/cykler-og-koeretoejer/tjek-om-en-cykel-ell...

⬐ m000

> How is it that we have normalized leaving the car out at night, but not the bicycle?

In addition to the legal framework mentioned in a previous comment, cars are insured. Most bicycles are not.

I'm not sure about the availability of bicycle insurance worldwide, but in the Netherlands you will typically also buy an insurance plan if your bicycle costs more than a few hundreds of €.

⬐ touisteur

Same in France, you have to chain the bike to a 'fixed point' which can be a bit of a pain to find sometimes. I put small fixed 'unremovable' anchors in the ground, but still, theft is a worry and a pita...

⬐ m000

Bicycle insurance in NL is much simpler: You just need to deliver 4 keys to the insurance company (2 for the frame lock and 2 for the chain lock) to prove that you indeed locked your bicycle. Of course, this leaves room for scamming the insurance company once or twice, but the risks of doing so outweigh the profit you will make.

⬐ touisteur

Oh that's good, thanks! except for the family member that regularly loses keys... Hum. I'll check whether it has evolved next time I renew my insurance contract.

⬐ shipman05

I'd wager it has more to do with portability than anything else.

Stealing a car is an order of magnitude more difficult than stealing a bike. A bike can be stolen in seconds (even with the best locks). Stealing a locked car with modern anti-theft protection will likely take minutes for even the most skilled thief.

⬐ dotancohen

But the cars have expensive components that can be taken in seconds - fuel door broken and fuel siphoned, hood latch broken and battery or alternator stolen, valuables in cabin and boot. No need to move the vehicle to profit off it.

⬐ prmoustache

Those things happen at scales too.

⬐ raisin_churn

And indeed in my city where bicycle theft is very common, so are smash and grabs and catalytic converter theft against cars with high-value catalytic converters (anything that meets CARB's poorly named Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle standard, so all hybrids, Subarus, and some others).

⬐ jeroenhd

Maybe it's because I grew up outside the city but I've never had a locked bike stolen or anything. At some point I forgot to lock my bike in the train station bike park and that got taken over the weekend but I've been so careless before so it's hardly a given.

I'm not sure what you mean by locks at bike parking spaces, the lock comes with the bicycle, doesn't it? All you need is something to attach it to. I've parked my bike in the more criminal neighbourhoods by locking the in-frame lock to make sure the back wheel doesn't go and by snaking my chain lock through the frame and my front wheel so they can't take the rest.

There are places (notably train stations) here where you can pay a small fee or a subscription to store your bike in a locker. Seems like a decent idea to me it you live in an area where simple bike locks aren't an option.

⬐ tinco

I've lived in various cities of The Netherlands for most of my life. Almost every bike I've ever had was stolen. I'm pretty sure leaving my bike unlocked for over half an hour has been a 90% loss rate for me.

I've never lost a bike that was locked. Even the crappiest lock has protected me in the center of Amsterdam. I've used a lock that you could probably cut with paper scissors to protect my retro racing bike. Often not even attached to a pole or anything.

I'd almost blame my lost bikes on myself because the thieves are so consistently preying on my negligence. But F them, it hurt everytime, it's not my fault my head's in the clouds so often.

⬐ jeroenhd

Bike thieves are the worst part about our bike centered culture. Perhaps even worse is the police doing very little to prevent bike theft even though everyone has a bike. I bet they'll laugh at you and send you away the second you admit that you didn't lock your bike; it's as if stealing unlocked bikes is normal in some places to the point where people make jokes about buying €5 bikes from hobos near the train station.

Maybe we need some kind of smart lock situation, pinging your phone if you leave your bike unlocked when you park it somewhere not near to your home and forget to lock it. No interaction with the lock itself, just a quick notification. You can probably use Google's location stalking API to detect biking and then have an app listen for a lock ping over Bluetooth LE or whatever so the lock doesn't even need to track state or contain location hardware.

⬐ touisteur

It's getting more and more common in Paris, in some places. Remove the battery, one or two chains, sometimes even with the thin cover :-).

⬐ prmoustache

A number of reasons:

- bikes aren't registered, very few are marked and second hand buyers never ask for papers and proof of purchase - Locks that can defeat battery power tools for more than a few seconds weight like boat anchors and you wouldn't want them on your bike. - market is such that you can steal a bike and swap it bike for money the same day - it is easy to steal 10-15 bikes, load them into a van and sell them in a city 500km away.

I wish people would stop buying bikes without asking for a proof of purchase. It should be mandatory that any purchase of a bicycle should include a paper with a copy of ID/Passeport and addresses of buyer/seller and the serial number of the frame.

⬐ jononomo

What do you do with the battery once you've removed it? Doesn't it weigh 15 pounds or more? Do you just carry it with you while you do your grocery shopping?

⬐ Symbiote

For short trips (like shopping or even sitting at work) you lock the bike outside. Removing the battery is for overnight.

(In Denmark; might not apply everywhere.)

⬐ stinos

it damages the gearbox and chain

Especially on electric bikes there's a shift towards 'integrated' gearing (either traditional in the back wheel or the new-ish Pinion systems), plus belt drive, which shouldn't have any problem with weather. That plus all bearings being properly sealed these days should make this a whole lot better than it used to. Still using the word 'should' because I don't have any experience myself apart from just riding through rain; I just cannot get over leaving any of my bikes outside, having been raised with strict 'no metal outside' policies :)

⬐ fab13n

I've had a bakfiets for 12+ year in France; I did DIY electrification at the time, as that was the only viable alternative then; both kids have been moved around in it since they're born (now my teenager can use our non-cargo e-bike, a RadExpand 5); I've already taxied two (petite) adult women at once in it; I use it as a wheelbarrow under steroids to bring wood pellets from parking spots to my boat's moorings, 7×15kg at a time; it truly replaces a second car, for a tiny fraction of the running expenses.

They were a niche gadget before electrification went mainstream, but today, I really urge you to give it a try by renting one for a couple of days, it makes life more enjoyable in my experience, beyond the money saved.

⬐ touisteur

Ha ha, Christmas tree, plaster and cement bags, sound equipment, 50 litres of beer (all that sloshing around made for a good story... And a very difficult ride). With the rain cover, I can ever pack as high as possible so during the covid lockdown I would max out all cargo space...

⬐ sonicgear1

I hope for a future where the cities are returned to the people - no more cars on the streets.

⬐ abdullahkhalids

Electric-assisted bicycles/scooters are a game changer when it comes to reducing car usage. There are lots of people today who cannot or will not use a manual bike or walk long distances because of health reasons or they don't like it etc.

But these mini electric vehicles remove a lot of reasons for those who don't want the physical exertion but would still be willing to drop their car. And the more such people there are, the more it is easy to make our cities bike/walk friendly.

⬐ waspight

I have a two wheeled bakfiets.nl (the brand and the type) and that is probably one of the best things I have ever bought. Can really recommend, especially if you have kids.

⬐ timwaagh

Ridiculous to continue peddling bikes as replacement for cars. Im Dutch and I grew up in a family with all of the environmentalist nonsense surrounding bikes. So I never wanted one. They stink after all and I had some trauma from biking through a cloud of exhaust in Rotterdam. I started following car lessons three years ago because of work reasons. It wasn't easy because I was so extremely late to the party at 32. Turns out cars are the bikes I always wanted. They are fast, you can take someone along. They carry a bunch. I can't believe the amount of times I walked through the city with say a bunch of wood making a fool of myself. I totally put myself at a social disadvantage to the point where I think I would have been held in much higher regard if I had had one before. An extreme waste of time.

That's not to say I hate bikes now. They are great for getting around the city when the weather is nice. They are also great for sport. But really get a license and a car the day you turn 18 if you can afford it.

There are better hopes for the environment too (ie electric scooters + public transport and electric cars/motorcycles, synthetic diesel fuel).

⬐ Freak_NL

Why bother to move loads of wood around like that? I just let the local lumber yard deliver it. For almost anything I might need a car, I can just arrange transportation via other means (delivery, courier, etc.), or just use my (non-bakfiets) bicycle, and still spend only a fraction of what a car costs yearly.

> I totally put myself at a social disadvantage to the point where I think I would have been held in much higher regard if I had had one before.

Get better friends and colleagues. Nobody bats an eyelash at my not owning a car, despite having a toddler and being a homeowner. It's completely normal in the Netherlands for city dwellers.

(I got my Dutch drivers licence at 18, drove a car for a few years, but haven't had a car for over two decades now. There's no point in it.)

⬐ jacquesm

The right tool for the job is my motto. I have a car and bikes. Whichever is the most appropriate is what I'll use. Short distances on regular bikes, much longer ones on the e-bike, longer still or (really) bad weather: car.

⬐ timwaagh

It takes time to get your stuff delivered. And quite a bit of money for heavier loads.

⬐ ragebol

Jup. We drive a small Toyota Aygo. If I extend the seatbelts, I could almost use it as a backpack. If I occasionally need some wood from Hornbach, even if the delivery cost is €100, which it is for large pieces of wood, that's still way cheaper than owning a bigger car for the rest of the time.

⬐ tjansen

Completely agree about making the drivers license (except the 'social disadvantage' part, never really felt that). Made my drivers license at age 37, and regretted missing so much life in the years before. Found out that I actually like to travel and visit other cities, or even doing things after work. The reason why I hated it and preferred to stay at home was public transport, which was a constant source of stress for me.

Also, I have used my bike a lot in my teens and liked it in a suburban/small town environment, but hate using it in cities. While there are bike lanes everywhere, they are full of bikes with sometimes insane speed (for a vehicle without air bags) and ignoring both common sense and traffic laws. I don't like the risks associated with it. Once you've reached middle age, every bike accident has a good chance of ruining your life forever...

⬐ ralfn

>. I totally put myself at a social disadvantage to the point where I think I would have been held in much higher regard if I had had one before.

From another Dutchie: get better friends

>some trauma from biking through a cloud of exhaust in Rotterdam

Now you are providing that trauma to others. At least drive something electric if you live in the city. It will be mandatory within cities soon anyway.

>Turns out cars are the bikes I always wanted.

Even in Rotterdam, if everyone switches to a car, it wouldn't fit. The only reason you find it pleasant to drive is because others aren't.

>There are better hopes for the environment too (ie electric scooters + public transport and electric cars/motorcycles, synthetic diesel fuel).

Yes to the first, but cars are too big by default. People should not own a car when living in a city. They should rent one on the days they need it.

It's not just the space the car takes when you drive it. It's the space it takes when you park it. Go visit places where everyone takes the car. Everything is far apart because it's separated by oceans of parking. The average US city ends up dedicating more space to parking than to everything else combined.

And yes, public transit is a great alternative, but only works with a minimum amount of population density, which cities indeed do have. But even in villages people should go at least electric, and the center should be car free, so it becomes a destination for people. No one wants to eat out next to a parking lot.

⬐ DoingIsLearning

You can always trust that there is a Dutch ready to lay down some truth on another Dutch. :)

I love how you guys are just crazy honest with each other.

⬐ yourusername

The bakfiets is the SUV of the bicycle path. People 30 years ago could get their kids to school in a normal car but now require some kind of offroad vehicle and people could get their kids to school on a normal bike but now require some kind of oversized monstrosity.

⬐ petard

Could not agree more. Most city infra is not built for bakfiets-style bikes so they clog bike lanes. Paired with an electric motor they are dangerous given the speed they can go and their intrinsic weigh.

Most of the time I see people carry a single child or a bag of goods at best. Quite similar to how often people use SUVs for actual offroad riding, like never. Don't get me wrong, if you are transporting stuff on a daily basis these are great. But it seems for the majority of time a normal bike plus backpack or child seat would have been sufficient.

⬐ jacquesm

This isn't true at all as far as the bikes are concerned. Cargo bikes to ferry kids to school are much easier for people to use than 'mommy bikes', the kids can get in and out far easier than on a regular bike where putting kids (especially more than one on) is always a very fine balancing act (and more than once I've had to catch a bike that was about to fall with one or more kids on it, my own and others). The low enter of gravity of a cargo bike helps as well.

Lastly, cargo bikes are used for much more than just transporting kids, it isn't rare at all to see them used to haul groceries in quantities that would never fit in pannier bags. My s.o. vastly prefers the cargo bike over her regular bike with heavy loads, both for stability and for hauling capacity, even if it is a bit slower than the regular one.

Five to six year olds are the hard case: technically too large for a regular bike seat, but too young to be in traffic. Having two of these quickly maxes out the carrying capacity of a normal bike, and when parents 'bikepool' taking neighbours kids along to school you regularly see a parent with up to four kids in a cargo bike, a feat you'd never manage on a regular bike.

As for the SUV: those things shouldn't be in city traffic to begin with.

⬐ ragebol

All true, but I do regularly feel like I'm inconveniencing people when I park our cargo bike, since it sticks out beyond the other bikes. With some consideration it's fine, but when there's dozens, I kinda get the point.

Still better than cars though, maybe I should just take a car spot...

⬐ jacquesm

> maybe I should just take a car spot

That's exactly what I do when I use the cargo bike. Usually when I come back there is another one using the same spot :)

I'm hoping for this to be institutionalized where car parking slowly gets transferred into permitted bike parking.

⬐ RappingBoomer

riding a bike is 10 times more dangerous than driving a car.... riding a motorcycle? 100 times...or so I hear....

⬐ raisin_churn

If you don't have children and live in a relatively flat city, the car-replacement bicycle is even cheaper: any half-decent used mountain bike off craigslist, throw a pannier rack on the back of it and a pair of pannier bags, and never drive again. I think I'm about $400 deep into mine, including the rack, panniers, decent lock, lights with rechargeable batteries, and tires and tubes for the last 4,000 miles. So, not yet broken even compared to my 50mpg Prius if only taking gas into account, but I'd be way ahead if my wife would agree to sell the car and not have to pay insurance, registration+inspection, etc.

My brother-in-law recently got an electric scooter for his work commute. I did the math, and at current gas prices and electricity prices, it saves him $4 a day in fuel, plus another $10 for parking, plus wear and tear on his high-end sports car. With three days a week in the office, without selling the car, the e-scooter pays for itself in less than four months, and the commute time is the same. And, when he does get in his car, it's not to go sit in traffic going to work, so he actually gets more enjoyment out of his nice car.

⬐ mysterydip

What kind of scooter, if you don't mind sharing?

⬐ raisin_churn

It's from Ninebot, a Chinese company that bought Segway a couple years ago. They seem to be one of the biggest e-scooter manufacturers, including many sold under other brand names. I think the model he has is F40.

The biggest drawback he's found is that the top speed of 19mph is a little limiting on the roads with painted-on bike lanes where he rides, some where the speed limit is 35mph so the speed difference is a little uncomfortable. I think that's a result of many cities restricting personal electric vehicles to conform with the 20mph top speed of a class 2 electric bike, so e-scooter makers just impose the same limit. His city bans rental e-scooters, but doesn't regulate personal e-scooters at all, so he may end up selling it and getting a faster one, or just hacking the controller to raise the speed limiter.

⬐ Freak_NL

Most Dutch don't even bother with a bakfiets for children (bakfietsen are actually kind of top of the market and mostly used by more affluent parents). Just a (safe!) seat on the Dutch style rear carrier. With both a baby and a toddler some parents also have a baby seat mounted on the steering bars and a toddler seat on the rear carrier. Totally normal; I'm doing this every day with one kid.

My kid just learned to ride a bicycle (without training wheels, going straight from balance bike to pedal bike) at 3½ years of age, so in a while he can ride along with us instead of being carried. (The perks of living in the Netherlands I guess.)

⬐ jeroenvlek

Living in The Hague, The Netherlands, my wife and I decided to indefinitely postpone owning a car for our two young kids (4 and 2) and buy a Gazelle Makki [0] and I must say I absolutely love it so far. My oldest can already ride her bike, but not everywhere, so having a car analogue is very convenient. Long distances we do by train or plane.

[0] https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-gb/makki-load

⬐ jacquesm

Be very careful with a kid that young in traffic: they have some extra risks that you may not see coming until it happens, for instance, kids bikes for kids that age have the pedals so close to the ground that a kerb strike isn't a rarity and the response to that can put them (and possibly you) in line of a car passing you in an eyeblink.

As for the bakfietsen being used by the more affluent parents: that used to be true but I have a family member that does not qualify as affluent by any stretch of the imagination and their bakfiets is their car replacement (they don't have a car) and that works very well for them. Such cases abound here (in NL), especially if one or more of the adults in a family do not have a driving license, which is more common than you might think.

That said, the e-bike bakfietsen that are top of the range definitely are aimed upmarket but there are plenty of cheaper ones. For many years we used (and still use) a third-hand unpowered bakfiets that we probably put more kilometers on than on most of our other bikes except for my commuter one.

⬐ Freak_NL

I'm a Dutch parent, not an adrenaline junkie taking unnecessary risks with his kid. Of course all outings will be age and skill appropriate. For now he rides on the sidewalk (which is allowed for children) under supervision. Bicycle accidents statistically peak when children turn 11/12; when it's usually out of your hands in a cycling country. Younger kids aren't much of a problem if taught properly.

⬐ brnt

> For now he rides on the sidewalk (which is allowed for children)

Note that, to my Dutch surprise, bikes are legally obliged to go on sidewalks in many (most?) countries.

⬐ jacquesm

Ah I thought you had the child in traffic, that changes matters considerably. Riding on the sidewalk when you're that small is the best solution.

11/12 is indeed the risky age: strong enough to attain appreciable speed, but not smart enough to do so responsibly. One of my kids is right in the danger zone and has so far managed to avoid falling, which probably means that if and when he does it will be bad. I caution him whenever we go cycling together but autumn (wind, leaves) is coming and going home from school is such a motivating thing for him that I can't really get him to slow down. Tricky!

⬐ withinboredom

Spend some time teaching them how to fall! Don’t put your hands out, use the meat in your body, etc. Get it to the point they can do it without thinking about it. I’ve been hit by pickups running red lights and walked away with a few little scrapes and the bike utterly destroyed. Training can save your life and bones.

⬐ touisteur

Yes, one or two years of well taught judo intro are also a lot of help in learning to 'fall'.

⬐ raisin_churn

> Most Dutch don't even bother with a bakfiets for children (bakfietsen are actually kind of top of the market and mostly used by more affluent parents). Just a (safe!) seat on the Dutch style rear carrier.

Yes, this seems ideal to me. A bakfiets seems like it wouldn't handle that well, especially around the tight 180 degree corners that many paths near me have. Also they are probably too wide to ride in our narrow bike lanes, especially the two-way cycletracks where it would be a nuisance for cyclists going the opposite direction.

> (The perks of living in the Netherlands I guess.)

Undoubtedly. My city in the US is constantly hailed as one of the most bikeable in the country, which is probably true by many metrics, but I think you'd have to be mad to let a child under, say, 14 years old, ride further than a friend's house a couple blocks away here, and certainly not across any major roads. The actual bike infrastructure, such as it is, is pretty scary for most adults who aren't hardcore cyclists. Well, as a hardcore cyclist, it is often still pretty scary for me, but I'm also a hardcore ideologue so I have to do it. In contrast, in my suburban childhood, it was possible to bike to places miles away safely, though that was only because they had accidentally built sidewalks that nobody ever used, so we just used those as our bike lanes. Here in the city, actual pedestrians are trying to use the too-narrow sidewalks, so they can't be relied on for burgeoning cyclists who aren't yet strong and savvy enough to brave the roads.

⬐ Symbiote

I've occasionally ridden Danish cargo tricycles, and like any tricycle they're very different to steer compared to a bicycle.

Be careful not to tip it on the first corner. You have to actively steer it, rather than just leaning. I assume people get used to it, but I didn't really like riding one.

With three wheels these obviously aren't bicycles.

⬐ raisin_churn

> With three wheels these obviously aren't bicycles.

Perhaps someone Dutch can correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, bakfiets is Dutch for a bin-in-the-front style cargo bicycle (Google translates it as "bin bicycle"), and there is also a company that takes its name from this style of bike and makes cargo bikes and trikes in this bin-in-the-front style. I'm referring to the two-wheeled type, ie a bicycle, and I assume everyone else is, since that's what the video is about.

⬐ ZeroGravitas

I watched this video previously, but if it's the one I'm thinking of he specifically demonstrates that a tricycle is worse than this type of bike for exactly this reason.

Yeah, 3:10 - 3:20.

⬐ Symbiote

Sorry, I didn't watch the video properly.

Yes, bakfiets just means "cargo cycle", of any type. The company Bakfiets makes cargo bicycles and cargo tricycles.

I've never ridden a cargo bicycle, so I can't comment on handling or stability. The tricycles are much more common in Copenhagen.

⬐ Symbiote

I walked 500m through the city centre and sat at a café for a couple of hours: I counted 11 cargo tricycles and 2 cargo bicycles.

⬐ touisteur

Oh we've tried both and the bicycle cargo is much nicer for most activities, especially the bakfiets ones. We've tried lots of tricycles and I feel they're deathtraps, if you usually drive a bicycle. You need to really steer and when at >20kph, steering without banking, keeping 3 wheels on the ground is very hard, I find. Maybe lack of practice. But in a month of driving a tricycle, getting back to a bicycle cargo was really a contrast.

The only thing I'm missing really from tricycles is the canopy, the roof, some of those have. I haven't seen a bakfiets cover high enough for tall-but-young kids, and it's really annoying to resort to ponchos or other garments to keep water away... I'm almost in the mind of building one, if only I was a better woodworker...

Buying my second bakfiets short in 2 days, couldn't be happier to fork the cash over...

> a two-wheeled cargo bikes are much easier to cycle than three-wheeled cargo bikes.

See video "The Car-Replacement Bicycle (the bakfiets)"

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_bike#Long_John_bicycle

⬐ radu_floricica

Thanks, that was a good video. I'm more sold on cargo bikes now (though unfortunately I doubt they're much use in my climate in winter)

⬐ panick21_

The same channel has other videos about biking in winter. But I of course don't know where you live and what you would use them for.

⬐ throw0101a

"Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)":

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

⬐ radu_floricica

Yeah, I've been linked this before in another thread. But somebody there also provided the statistics: even in the "capital of winter biking", about 22% of trips are taken by bike. Which makes bikes a valid alternative, but not a main solution.

⬐ Xylakant

It’s worth noting that the two-wheeler demonstrated in this video is an old-style one with wheels just attached at the box. The Butchers and Bicycles one linked by the grandparent post is one with an actual steering at the front - the box and the bike will lean into a corner, just like a two-wheeler would.

This makes modern 3-wheelers much more agile. They still have certain disadvantages- they’re wide and bulky, you’ll have trouble avoiding potholes etc., but they’re nowhere as bad as those boxes with wheels (tough you can still buy those - their upside is their low price)

I suggest you watch this video[1] by the awesome channel "Not Just Bikes". Bakfiets are a dutch cargo bike you can literally use for 99% of all your errands. People in a city do not need personal cars. And even Cargo bikes are only useful for 10-20% of occasions, depending on if you have big shopping tours or kids. For the 1 or 2 occasions a year where a car is needed, car sharing is the way to go.

[1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA

⬐ binbashthefash

These are everywhere in the Netherlands, from parents taking kids to school, to custom ones with coolers for grocery delivery. They're great.

⬐ powerbroker

My neighborhood in Houston would be perfect for this.

⬐ rmason

While they're not super common we do have Bakfiets in the Lansing-East Lansing area. Michigan State owns a couple of them and there are a few people using them to do food delivery. I don't think any of them are electric assist but that would be a big plus, especially for older folks.

I didn't watch the whole thing, but did she mention electric bikes? IMO, Electric cars, or cars in general, are just fine. We just did a family road-trip around Denmark with our Ioniq 5 and it's absolutely perfect for that. The thing is, we should be renting them when we need them, and use bikes more the rest of the time. Electric bikes are quickly becoming a viable alternative to cars in many bike-friendly cities, and we're seeing an explosion in the choices of electric cargo bikes.

Not Just Bikes has an excellent new video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA

I rode my electric bike to work today in fact. Instead of our EV, ironically. But our family uses only one car at least.

We don't necessarily need simpler cars, we need better electric bikes. Or electric motorbikes/scooters. And better public transportation.

Something like this would be a nice option for some usecases: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPyIwY2hJ_A

GetAround is making renting cars more viable too. We do actually have a second car now, but I've been renting the old one out until we're ready to sell it and until we're sure we can handle two kids in kindergarten without it. It's been way more popular than I anticipated.

⬐ fho

Something something velomobile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile

I am right now shopping for one after ten years of not being able to afford and/or justify one. "But you will get killed!" ... probably not.

⬐ Tade0

> We don't necessarily need simpler cars, we need better electric bikes. Or electric motorbikes/scooters.

Or golf carts. Just like so many creatures in nature evolve into crabs, personal transport appears to evolve into golf carts. The Japanese have kei cars, which are just heavy golf carts and there exist cargo bikes, which are just underpowered, three-wheeled golf carts.

There are even golf-cart oriented towns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcVGqtmd2wM

I think the recent electric scooter boom and subsequent pushback by communities shows that: - There is (IMHO huge) pent-up demand for last-mile style electric transportation: scooters, bicycles, etc. - The electric drive technology is starting to reach a point where it can support a whole new space of designs that make this sort of transportation appealing to a wide variety of users (i.e. not just fit young adventurous people; the elderly, young children, etc.) - Sadly, infrastructure, laws, and social norms move way too slowly and are the limiting factor for what could be a major quality-of-life improvement for many many people.

Note that "EV's that are half the width of a normal car lane ... probably less than $10k." is a pretty good description for the electric cargo bikes that are already starting to emerge.

I would love to see cities and towns adapt faster to accommodate things like this:

The Car-Replacement Bicycle (the bakfiets) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA

How to Transport Kids by eBike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCvx65egUDE

This American Mayor is Creating the Ultimate Biking City https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlVWv9O0qQ4

⬐ Cru5y

I am amazed by the Bakfiets, but i am confused at why delivery guys aren't already using it, there must be some reason for why these are unusable in other countries, like, here in italy we see delivery guys everyday and i think that if someone found it useful they would've already started using it, so, why not? What is keeping people from using the Bakfiets? There MUST be a reason for this.

⬐ gbrindisi

I think in Italy there is still a cultural barrier

⬐ paulywog

If you're ever in San Francisco, Miami, or NYC, check out what Revel is doing. Electric mopeds that rent for $0.50/min! They're such an excellent way to get around and see the city (at least in San Francisco where I ride them)

⬐ zagfai

It is soooo expensive what was about $1/hour in China.

⬐ ciex

Electric cargo bikes solve so many problems I don't even know where to begin. Faster than cars in traffic, cheaper, easier to service, extremely flexible in configuration, modular, hackable, healthier, quieter, etc. They can carry a week's worth of grocerys and you don't even need to sweat. I have lost track of all the companies popping up in the last years with new products in the space like urban arrow [1], onomotion [2], babboe [3], carla cargo [4].

[1]: https://na.urbanarrow.com/ [2]: https://onomotion.com/en/ [3]: https://www.babboe.co.uk/ [4]: https://www.carlacargo.de/products/ecarla/