HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Volkswagen is showing it now. They'll release multiple models across multiple brands every year from now on. Here are some upcoming EVs from Volkswagen. Some available now, some available soon, some available in future:

Audi e-Tron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uHlohyKLlQ

Audi e-Tron GT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvNw15W_EK8

Audi Q4 e-Tron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiwevzHsCbU

Porsche Taycan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrVkOQojN4Y

Porsche Macan: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/26/18240862/porsche-macan-el...

VW ID.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Tqw9LX3QE

SEAT el-Born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ShA3l0BHGs

Skoda Vision iV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1g9xl6W_E

VW ID Crozz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zbuvzEA5A

VW ID Buzz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQut6ks3nSY

VW ID Roomzz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzP6NOGNIWo

⬐ codeulike

Don't get me wrong, if they pull this off I'll be cheering them on.

The ones actually launched (e-tron only I think?) have been disappointing. The e-tron has a huge 90kwh battery and only 205 miles of range. People can make excuses for it but the reality is that is an engineering failure.

All the other MEB models that are supposed to be coming soon - all we've got is jazzy names and concept car mock ups. Yet to see production car, price or specs on any of those.

Perhaps they have some technical advance up their sleeves. But imho the chances are this big new MEB platform is 75% pr puff. There's a good chance that the things their going to actually launch will be on par with the 2016 Nissan Leaf. That's what just happened with BMWs electric Mini.

So let's talk when they announce actual dates, prices and specs. For now I'm skeptical.

⬐ clouddrover

> all we've got is jazzy names and concept car mock ups.

You should actually watch the videos. Does that Taycan look like a mock up to you?

The VW ID.3 is not a jazzy name. They had 20,000 pre-bookings a month ago:

https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/05/vw-marks-20000-pre-orde...

> For now I'm skeptical.

It doesn't matter if you're skeptical or not. Volkswagen is not spending 80 billion euros on EVs for the fun of it:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-insig...

⬐ codeulike

Ok so we know what they Taycan is going to look like. We still don't know the range. They need to beat the Model S on performance and range, though not necessarily price. Otherwise they're going to look like idiots. This is Porsche, after all. Theyre making a big fuss about how fast it can charge. Is that because they know it won't compete on range (like the e-tron)? Let's see in 12 months time.

Ok the ID3 is a reasonable name, But we still don't know what this supposed flagship is going to look like. It's definitely not going to look like the pics they've released so far. But Crozz, Buzz and Roomz seem like pr names rather than actual production car names.

If they really are investing all that money I would expect a lot of delays because they'll need to actually deliver something good rather than a cop out for that amount of cash.

So let's meet back here in 12 months and see how the ID3 pans out.

⬐ clouddrover

> They need to beat the Model S on performance

The Model S overheats when doing a lap at a racetrack. It's not a performance car:

https://insideevs.com/news/323053/tesla-model-s-fails-to-lap...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZLGIs0H14

> Ok the ID3 is a reasonable name, But we still don't know what this supposed flagship is going to look like

Of course we do. Have a look:

https://insideevs.com/news/359253/production-parts-vw-id3-st...

https://insideevs.com/news/359217/vw-id3-light-camo-rechargi...

https://insideevs.com/news/359140/video-vw-tease-id3-dashboa...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RENix0of9Dw

⬐ codeulike

It's true, the model s is no good on the track. model 3 is better, so let's hope they can beat the 3.

Re: the id3: there's no way it's going to look like the concept car images they have released. Unless I've missed something they are going to reveal the production version in September.

⬐ clouddrover

> model 3 is better, so let's hope they can beat the 3

There's no need to hope. The Porsche Taycan has already done sub 8 minutes at the Nurburgring according to Mark Webber:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohHEdaRhF1k

What's the Model 3's best Nurburgring time?

> Re: the id3: there's no way it's going to look like the concept car images they have released.

Okay, you're clearly not looking at the links. Here's yet another test drive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cHHNPRg-c

⬐ codeulike

I hadn't heard about that Nurburgring lap. That's encouraging. I look forward to hearing the specs when they eventually release them.

I am looking at the links. One of them is about a camouflaged ID3 being spotted a few days ago. Why is it camouflaged? Because the production version has not been revealed yet. Everything shown so far has been prototypes. Admittedly the prototypes have been getting a bit more realistic in styling. I like the look of it. I'm just saying, no specs yet and production version is yet to be unveiled. I hope they can come up with something better than BMW just did. And better than the e-tron they launched earlier this year.

⬐ clouddrover

> no specs yet

Look at the links.

> Show me cars built on that new base driving on the street

Sure.

Audi e-Tron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uHlohyKLlQ

Audi e-Tron GT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvNw15W_EK8

Porsche Taycan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrVkOQojN4Y

VW ID Neo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Tqw9LX3QE

> and I'm fine with it

I don't think it matters if you're fine with it or not.

It will work out. It's not like these cars aren't being tested now. Watch a test of the first MEB based VW model which will go into production at the end of this year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Tqw9LX3QE

⬐ pedrocr

I've followed the announcements and reviews. There is no doubt they will launch the cars, it's your prediction of market success that remains to be tested. So far no one has come up with a drive train that rivals Tesla in power and efficiency. Everyone is either having to install more batteries for the same range and/or having less power. Tesla's advantage is not only in having more cars out in the market, it's even more so in having better technology than anyone else in the batteries, motors and electronics. See the Munro interviews if you want details on those. I do hope quite a few other existing car manufacturers get there as well but my point stands, they are behind in EV technology and if they don't catch up the writing is on the wall. The fact that VW is making massive investments is just more evidence of that. Most others are not even doing that much as far as we know.

⬐ clouddrover

> they are behind in EV technology

When will Teslas take a 350 kW charge? Porsche is doing that this year.

How many models will Tesla have available in 2022?

⬐ pedrocr

Number of models is irrelevant, being able to buy the same car badged as VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat is just price discrimination and adds no value. A real-world comparison of charging speeds is still an open question. The next generation of Tesla superchargers goes live in 4 days and will work with actual cars on the road. By the time actual roll-out is done we'll have to see who has the better network. Hopefully it starts to standardize more between them all because right now Tesla is well ahead in the charging network.

But the biggest advantage is not that. It's having electrical motors that are cheaper, lighter and more powerful (Munro has a great slide on that). It's having cells that are cheaper to build and better integrated (Munro was apparently blown away). It's having power electronics that are better. That's the kind of advantage that makes for higher margins and better products. I'd love it for others to surpass it, but it hasn't happened yet.

I'm not particularly in favor of Tesla, just EVs for several reasons. I do hope all the traditional manufacturers come out with great EVs. They just haven't yet.

⬐ jakobegger

> Number of models is irrelevant

No it's not. Right now, there just is no EV "family car".

I would love to buy a model 3, but with that ridiculous trunk there's just no way I could fit my kids stuff in there.

All the EVs currently being built (or announced) are just commuter cars. Sedans and small SUVs are great for driving to work on your own, but I think it'll be really awkward to go on a skiing trip with a family of 4 in a Model 3 or in a Nissan Leaf or whatever.

(technically there's the Nissan eNV, but that car is hideous)

Maybe Volkswagen will be the company that finally builds a practical EV...

⬐ pedrocr

You're ignoring my point. Having different models is obviously great for different uses. Hence S/X/3/Y/etc. Number of models is irrelevant when it's a bunch of different versions of a VW Golf like you get with VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat/etc.

⬐ clouddrover

> Number of models is irrelevant when it's a bunch of different versions of a VW Golf

It isn't a bunch of Golfs. It's hatchbacks, crossovers, and buses built on the same modular platform:

http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/future-cars/official-the-vw-...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQut6ks3nSY

⬐ pedrocr

You quoted 27 different models. That's not 27 different types of car, it's all those duplications over a few model types. And when they're all in the market we'll all be happy. Until then it's just a promise.

⬐ clouddrover

You might as well say the same thing about the entire car industry. It's a silly perspective.

The MEB platform can be adapted to hatchbacks, sedans, crossovers, vans, and even dune buggies. That's what will give Volkswagen economies of scale Tesla doesn't have.

It isn't just a promise. It's the mass market arm of their EV strategy.

⬐ pedrocr

Debating against things people haven't actually said is not productive. I think having common platforms is an advantage, hence why the Model Y is reportedly heavily based on the 3. That's what all the manufacturers do. I was specifically talking about your claim that number of models was an advantage that VW had. In EVs they currently have almost no models and ship almost no cars. They've announced a platform and somehow to you that's them being ahead of Tesla who is already at a ~400k cars/year rate. I hope VW and all the others get their act together and ship millions of EVs every year. If they end up crushing Tesla that's no problem for me either. But this argument of yours that VW is somehow ahead in EVs without actually selling any significant amount of EVs is just ridiculous. It's just a promise until they ship.

⬐ clouddrover

> I think having common platforms is an advantage

Yes, an Volkswagen advantage has.

> that number of models was an advantage that VW had

It is. Their MEB modular platform allows them to target every segment across multiple brands while maintaining economies of scale in manufacturing. They're good at it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MLB_platform

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MQB_platform

As I say, better planning and bigger scale.

⬐ jakobegger

The current MQB system isn't just used for VW Golf and Audi A3.

The system scales from small compact cars like the Audi A1 or the VW Polo to big family cars like the VW Touran or Skoda Superb or even SUVs like Skoda Kodiaq.

If their strategy works out, and they can introduce a system like that for EVs, they can start introducing multiple new models per year.

⬐ clouddrover

Maybe you need a VW bus. Lots of room. One for home: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/19/volkswagen-id-buzz-crozz...

And one for work: https://jalopnik.com/the-volkswagen-i-d-buzz-cargo-is-the-fu...

And a dune buggy for the weekends: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121245_volkswagen-conf...

⬐ clouddrover

> The next generation of Tesla superchargers goes live in 4 days and will work with actual cars on the road.

350 kW chargers are already rolling out on the Ionity, Fastned, and Electrify America networks. They use the CCS standard. They already work with cars on the road:

https://insideevs.com/first-ionity-350-kw-chargers-denmark/

https://fastned.nl/nl/blog/post/everything-you-ve-always-wan...

https://insideevs.com/here-are-the-350-kw-nad-150-kw-abb-cha...

Why is Tesla so far behind?

⬐ pedrocr

I don't know of a single car that you can buy that takes 350kW. In fact I don't know of a single car that you can buy that charges at higher rates than the Teslas. And you keep doubling down on charging rates as if that was the single metric by which to compare manufacturers and conveniently ignore all the other stuff I've pointed out.

⬐ clouddrover

> I don't know of a single car that you can buy that takes 350kW.

Volkswagen knows. They'll sell you a Porsche Taycan. Then they'll sell you an Audi e-tron GT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMEdiq2xTbQ

And then they'll sell you a Porsche Macan:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/porsche-macan-electric-on...

Better planning, bigger scale.

Meanwhile Tesla is still losing money. They were down $1 billion in 2018:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121240_tesla-turned-pr...

When will Tesla's technology be profitable? The closure of the retail stores doesn't inspire confidence.

⬐ lorenzorhoades

you can make a 1000KWH car, and still be much less efficient than a 250KWH car. Range and speed is what matters not KWH. Aerodynamic, efficiency of enerygy conversion, etc.. comes into play.

⬐ vancan1ty

Researched each of those models -- none of them are actually available for purchase currently as best I can tell.

Yes, I agree the Hyundai Kona EV is the best value for money today. It's got good range at a good price.

But the upcoming Volkswagen I.D. models are also cars which get the normal and boring things right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Tqw9LX3QE

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/concept-cars/volkswage...

The I.D. hatchback is supposed to be priced around the same as a diesel Golf. They say they'll be able to drive down prices though the economies of scale of their MEB platform:

https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-...

And for high-end luxury cars VW will have the Porsche Taycan and at least three models of Audi e-tron in the next few years (Audi e-tron SUV to be released soon, a future Audi e-tron GT based on the Porsche Taycan's platform, and a future Audi CUV based on the same MEB platform as the I.D. models).

⬐ sjwright

All true but again, I don't trust VAG as a company so I'm not inclined to purchase any of their products. I personally know too many people burned by their various catastrophes with their DSG gearboxes and diesel engines that I'd simply be too scared to hand over my money.

⬐ tonyedgecombe

That's interesting, they are perceived as a quality/aspirational brand in the UK.

⬐ sjwright

They are here as well (Australia) among some people but their reputation for reliability and longevity is trash among many segments of commentator and consumer.

Mazda has an unusually strong footprint in Australia, particularly for hatchbacks and crossovers.

Most non-German European brands are very unpopular, selling in relatively minuscule numbers.

Here they are test driving the VW car (VW ID. First Drive from fullycharged) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Tqw9LX3QE