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Dear America... | David Mitchell's SoapBox
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All the comments and stories posted to Hacker News that reference this video.Well, he is saying that he cares about it.Accidentally, by mangling an idiom, but still.
I think David Mitchell has a thing about this?
⬐ hotpotamusI think Weird Al did it well https://youtu.be/8Gv0H-vPoDc?t=67⬐ LinuxBenderI love David Mitchell's rants. My favorite is his rant on tax avoidance. [1]
David Mitchell did a longer piece
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw"Really? 'erbs? You're french now?"
⬐ tzotI remember a flame war between US-English and UK-English speakers, where one of the former said “if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German now” and one of the latter ones said “if it weren't for the French, you'd still speak English now”.⬐ throwaway894345⬐ throwaway894345I don’t understand the rebuttal. Is American English supposed to be more French-influenced than UK English?⬐ random3821It means that without help from the French the American revolutionaries would have lost the war for independence, and modern Americans would therefore speak with British accents. The joke is that American's don't speak proper English.⬐ tzotLike random3821 commented, it's about American English not being “proper” English (while supposedly if the US of A were a British colony, it would be “proper”.)⬐ joshuaissacIt is a reference to the assistance provided by France to help the American colonies (and later the United States) rebel against the British Empire.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolut...
⬐ throwaway894345Ah. That's not a very sharp barb considering the significant power differential between England and the Revolutionists at the time.⬐ random3821I think the key part of the joke is that Americans don't speak proper English.To be fair, the “h” was silent in UK English when the English colonized America, and then the English began pronouncing the “h” at a later point. UK English deviates from the common ancestor surprisingly frequently.
It's also a nonsensical expression which some English speakers (rather good-naturedly) find bothersome, as comedian David Mitchell explains:
⬐ radoslawcI was going to post that video. but got distracted with work. I absolutely love David Mitchell.⬐ ogogmadI know what it means and it could be interpreted as a sarcastic expression - so there's nothing to be bothered by.
Very related David Mitchell rant:"Dear America..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
Apparently yes.
It’s okay. The queen asked David Mitchell to have a quick word with Americans
FYI "I could care less" is probably not what you meant.It's "couldn't care less" [1].
⬐ partisanYes, it is something I have to consciously correct and I was doing too many things at once. I appreciate the correction.⬐ omaranto"I could care less" is an idiom, it means the same thing as "I couldn't care less". (This may seem somewhat odd, but it's perfectly natural once you know it started out as sarcastic.)
On another note.Dear Americans, the queen would like you to stop saying "could care less" - by David Mitchell of Peep Show
⬐ nocmanI am American, and I'm sure this bothers me more than it actually bothers the queen.Between that and the incessant use of the incorrect phrase "for free" instead of the correct phrase "for nothing" it's amazing that I can stand to read anything on the internet.
xD
⬐ striking⬐ eric_the_readYou should write a browser extension that fixes that. I'd use it.⬐ nocmanOoh, I like that idea. Don't tempt me!xD
I could care less about this request, but I can't be bothered to make the effort.
No, "I could care less" is never acceptable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
I think this video is appropriate here:David Mitchell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
In the simplest case, the thing referred to is 'a think', and they're entirely equivalent :)I'd argue that this is more of an Eggcorn[1] than a malapropism, unlike your second example.
"The proof is in the pudding", or the classic "Could care less"[2] are the two worst offenders I can think of immediately.
I think we agree with each other. Words like "ain't" entering the common lexicon (usually in spoken english) is fine by me ie. Words formed out of contractions of other words/phrases, or entirely new inventions.What I mostly get riled up about are words or phrases that are just plain wrong, but that have been used so widely that some dictionaries have accepted them as correct.
⬐ dhimes"Enormity" is one of those words. It used to be strictly "horrible," conveying a sense of wickedness, and to use it as a synonym for "enormousness" was glaringly wrong. But the mistake was so common, even among journalists and writers, that that it has gained acceptance in at least one English dictionary.
Could care less? Haven't seen that for a while, so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
Typo or http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=om7... ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw#t=50Or typo?
> could care less
⬐ skenTo be fair he's posting about it on an internet forum so he probably _could_ care less.
But "I could care less" is a perfectly grammatical sentence, which has a semantic meaning, which, as David Mitchell explains at comic length, is the opposite of what the speaker means to say.
⬐ nollidgeRight. How's that different from what I said?
Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
>Meanwhile, 50 million people could care less what's inside an iPad.I assume you mean 'couldn't care less'. [1]
⬐ martingordonUgh, I always find myself correcting people on that and I hate myself for letting it slip through.
"I could care less if this is open source" David Mitchell explains why this phrase makes no sense and means exactly that opposite of what you want to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
⬐ ryankleeWow. at first I thought you were linking to something actually interesting and thoughtful regarding the nature of security and open source software. Turns out you were being boorish, prejudicial and wrongheaded about the absolutely normal and acceptable use of language. There is no such thing as linguistic prescriptivism. What you are espousing is the linguistic intellectual equivalent of creationism. It only exists in unfortunate circles of bored, annoying laymen and their grammarian fore-bearers, who were equally unfortunate bored and annoying. For 10,000 reasons why you should leave everyone alone with your silly prejudices, see Language Log or any other of the dozen or so blogs linguists run. </rant>⬐ pessimizerIf that you could care less is the most you can say about something, that's an insult. If you say that you couldn't care less, that's just a lie - you're responding to it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_with_faint_praise
I love David Mitchell, but this rant by other people is a long held irritation of mine: false pedantry:)
⬐ michael_dorfmanThe phrase is usually used ironically: "I could care less" is used to mean the opposite "I couldn't care less".Similarly, when my daughter says "Nice hat, Dad", she is not actually complimenting me on my choice of haberdashery, but rather, pointing out that she thinks it is not nice at all.
This message brought you by Irony: Making Communication More Interesting Since the Dawn of Language.
⬐ verroqYou are talking about sarcasm. Not irony. And a commonly made grammar mistake isn't irony. Unless your whole post was wrapped in a big <sarcasm> tag and I've just made a fool out of myself.⬐ morsch⬐ white_devilNo. He is talking about irony, not sarcasm. Irony is typically understood to mean saying A while being aware (or of the opinion) that !A. Viz. "Nice hat, dad", or "Real good idea" (when it's not). Sarcasm (cutting remarks) often involve irony, but not always; it's an orthogonal concept.Also, dropping the "not" in "Could not care less" is not reasonably said to be a grammar mistake. It's usually not sarcasm, either. Whether you agree that it's irony is a different matter (I'm pretty sure it's not).
⬐ michael_dorfmanThe relationship between sarcasm and irony is subtle; sarcasm often makes use of irony, but is characterized by its "biting" nature. The quote from my daughter is ironic and sarcastic; the quote about "caring less" is ironic, and may or may not be sarcastic depending on the context.Irony here refers to verbal irony, a discrepancy between the literally meaning of a phrase and its intended meaning, such as saying "What a nice day!" when it is raining.
Thus, "I could give a shit" and "I couldn't give a shit" are identical in meaning, as the former is doubtless intended ironically. Similarly for caring less.
⬐ gojomoIt's a contranymic idiom. A contridiom!Really now? Next you'll be telling us that "then" is used ironically instead of "than", even when "than" is what people mean.Face it, people say "I could care less" for the same reason they say "then" instead of "than". There's just something about the English language that makes most of its native speakers unable to use it.
You came up with this irony theory because you've made the same mistake yourself, and your ego wants to deflect the accompanying shame.
The word "not" is not a particularly big word, but then again, most native speakers can't use "than" either.
It's amazing what an outburst of theorizing wankery your comment sparked.
⬐ bmeltonThis argument is pervasive on HN. Here is the best example of it[1], and please see CodyRobbins posts[2] on the subject as some of HN's best posts ever.⬐ morschFor what it's worth, I would not classify this as irony (or at least it's hardly a prototypical case). I'm sure the current meaning of "I could care less" is quite thoroughly conventionalized: it's part of everyday speech, and many people do not notice any non-literal effects such as irony -- as evidenced by the prescriptionist videos which feel the need to explain to people the "true" meaning of the expression. Irony may have had a role in the etymology of the expression. All of this is very similar to a dead metaphor.⬐ RyanMcGrealIn fairness, I wouldn't offer the pedantry of a prescriptionist who was moved to create a video as evidence that the average person doesn't get the sarcasm of "I could care less". I think it's rather more likely that the average person couldn't care less whether the phrase is literally correct, as long as the listener or reader understands its meaning.⬐ morsch⬐ repsilatI'm sure most people would see the original non-literal features of the phrase if they were to think about it. The point is, they don't! Not because they're dumb but because the entire expression has unit status in their vocabulary. The fact that people do not notice the original non-literalness in the phrase (and indeed understand it as intended) is evidence that it's not non-literal anymore.I'm harping on about this because it's such a nice poster child for an entrenched (conventionalized) meaning of an entire expression as opposed to just a word, and for the lack of componentiality of meaning in language. In other words, there's more to the meaning of a sentence than just the meaning of its words. Componentiality is one of the points of debate between different schools of thinking in linguistics.
⬐ RyanMcGrealI suppose I just have a hard time getting too exercised about what is, essentially, a banal artifact of a highly idiomatic language. When I find myself getting bogged down over a particular expression, I step back and ask myself: if person A uses this expression, will person B understand what they mean? Really, this is all that really matters.> I'm sure the current meaning of "I could care less" is quite thoroughly conventionalized: it's part of everyday speechOnly in some places - I can only remember having heard it on television from the US. I shiver in pain every time I hear it, too, so I'm pretty sure I haven't heard it in person (having lived in New Zealand and Australia).
I don't want to be "that guy" and I'm not trying to be a grammar Nazi. I know this is now an idiom in the USA, and therefore it doesn't have to make sense.> I could care less, ...However ...
I've now heard it said, in four different countries, that this phrase makes the speaker sound like an idiot. I know it's now just "the norm" in the USA, but I wanted to let people here know that saying this makes a bad impression.
If you don't care how you sound to non USAians then don't bother. But if you're wondering what I'm talking about, David Mitchell does an excellent job of explaining "I couldn't care less"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw#t=0m56s
I now return you to your normal programming.
⬐ AaronIIt's sarcastic in intent. Trying to condemn an idiom that is obviously logical nonsense misses the point. When I say "I could care less", it could be interpreted instead, "as if there were anything else I care less about."⬐ mturmonI could care less about what a dude with such bad teeth says.⬐ tsuipenLet me play devil's advocate (which might actually play in your favor, seeing as you've used that neologism). How do you think new words and phrases make it into the dictionary? It's by a proportionate amount of people using it for a specific meaning. Meaning is an abstract concept. Contrary to popular belief, language is not always logical or literal. It's an ever-changing organism: elastic and metamorphic.The phrase you quote is not "now just" the norm. It has always been ever since I can remember living in North America. It's nobody's fault the British-speaking world has just discovered it. This reminds me a little of when the Europeans first discovered "America."
This is why Jorge Luis Borges once said, "Todas las palabras fueron alguna vez un neologismo" (All words were once a neologism).
⬐ RiderOfGiraffes<shrug>It's common in the USA. People I've spoken to from other countries think it makes those who use it seem ignorant. I'm providing data, not making a judgement. I know that many idioms don't make sense when dissected.
The parts of the world I have regular dealings with - excluding the USA - all say "I couldn't care less," and that actually does make sense. The people I've spoken with about this have expressed bewilderment that the alternate version should be used. They say that it doesn't make sense, and it's open to misunderstanding.
When I speak with customers I don't use the same short-hand or code phrases that I use with my colleagues. Likewise students when applying for jobs or other positions use more formal language, because to do otherwise makes them look uneducated and ignorant. I'm just saying that I've seen the same attitude towards people who use this particular phrase.
Personally, I don't care. In fact, it would be hard for me to care less. I'm just offering a datum that some might find useful.
It's "couldn't care less". When you say "could care less" you are endorsing the claim of American Kids Getting Dumber. If you still don't get it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
⬐ nhangenEh, you get the point, but thanks for the catch. Fixed...or not. Can't edit because of the reply. Darn.
So you do care a little bit, then?
⬐ arsI think saying could instead of couldn't was part of the joke.
From switch007 via http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1443308David Mitchell does an excellent job of explaining "I couldn't care less"
⬐ shabbleAs does John Cleese: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCUsPnKD1gkIt's a common annoyance :-)
David Mitchell does an excellent job of explaining "I couldn't care less" -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw#t=0m56s
⬐ RiderOfGiraffesThank you - I really, really enjoyed that. Given my bizarre linguistic background, that hit several sweet spots.Cute how the CGI background is deliberately out-of-focus too. Very effective use of the technology.
Aside from Apple vs Google, David Mitchell discusses this curious form of expression with graphs and what-not: