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⬐ cmeiklejohn

Related work:

PPDP '17 paper on scaling: http://christophermeiklejohn.com/publications/ppdp-2017-prep...

Ensuring monotonicity via types: http://prl.ccs.neu.edu/blog/2017/10/22/monotonicity-types-to...

⬐ rdtsc

Great stuff, love your work.

From the video also enjoyed the details about how things ran on variety of cloud environments. The google one was funny: kubernetes in kubernetes on borg on hw virtualtization on hardware.

⬐ cmeiklejohn

We are open to any platform that provides free resources for running experiments. Of course, any funding will be acknowledged in papers we publish. :)

⬐ shalabhc

Very interesting - LASP looks like it is based on CRDTs, which I understand work by attaching location and time metadata to the data operations (add/remove) and then being able to merge history consistently.

Is there more work that generalizes this idea? E.g. attach metadata to more generic 'messages' that operate on 'processes' and then have the processes define how (or if) the merge occurs, given the history of all messages at different cloned replicas? Can LASP support something like this?

⬐ cmeiklejohn

Lasp can't support this yet, but we're moving towards this direction. We've build a highly-available membership library called partisan, and the next step is to make it so we can basically do this type of work inside of something like OTP with normal messaging. However, it's not trivial because Erlang doesn't allow us to trivially include metadata in our messages, like something like Microsoft Orleans does (this is how we transparently added transactions into Orleans without changing user semantics, by transparently augmented the message during transmission.)

⬐ cmeiklejohn

Right now, everything is manual and requires explicitly passing metadata between messages -- this is less than ideal and we're hoping to have some sort of facility where we can do this transparently in Erlang -- a la parse_transformation or similar, where we can thread either a causal context or session context through to make certain types of guarantees. If this is interesting, we've love to talk to you to learn more about how we could bring this to reality in a real application.

⬐ shalabhc

My interest in this is atm is research oriented. I do feel LASP is a great project and I'd like to see more work in this area because I believe there is a general lack of distributed programming systems which abstract away an entire network of computers. I believe that is where the future lies - we do not want to be programming one OS process at a time and use a disparate array of containers, while building very large and complicated systems.

Passing through a causal context seems like a good idea. I'm not that familiar with Erlang but perhaps it doesn't have to be fully transparent? I presume there is a subset of processes that would participate in the distributed implementation and each could be encapsulated by another LASP process that wraps/unwraps messages as they go out/in and handles the metadata?

Btw, some related ideas exist in Croquet/TeaTime as well (http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2003001_croq_collab.pdf)

⬐ fenollp

> 10k EUR in 9 monts

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Not affiliated. Just a happy customer.

⬐ binarytemple

Nice work. Distributed computation is the future. Also glad to see someone scaling Erlang node count.

⬐ cmeiklejohn

Thank you!!

⬐ rad_gruchalski

I've been looking forward to watching the video and learn a little bit more about LASP itself. Been following your work closely on Twitter a while ago. Unfortunately, got a little bit lost about half way through. I am not exactly sure what was the point you are trying to put across and I still don't really know what LASP is. It seems that it's somehow about disseminating the state in distributed systems? However, the digs at Mesos, distributed Erlang, the use case of launching a cluster within a short period of time suggest that disseminating state isn't the core of the talk.

I've done some work on gossip systems in the past, http://gossiperl.com is the result of my research. Gossiperl was based on work I've done at Technicolor Virdata (shut down nearly couple of years ago). We've built a distributed device management / IoT / data ingestion platform consisting of over 70 VMs (EC2, OpenStack, SoftLayer). That was before Docker became popular, virtually everyone was thinking in terms of instances back then. These machines would hold different components of the platform: ZooKeeper, Kafka, Cassandra, some web servers, some hadoop with Samza jobs, load balancers, Spark and such. Our problem was the following: each of these components have certain dependencies. For example, to launch Samza jobs, one needs Yarn (the Hadoop one) and Kafka, to have Kafka, one needs ZooKeeper. If we were to launch these sequentially, that would take significant amount of time considering that each node would've get bootstrapped every single time from zero (base image with some common packages installed) using Chef and installing deb / rpm packages from the repos. What we put in production was a gossip layer written in ruby, 300 lines or so. Each node would announce just a minimum set of information: what role it belongs to, what id within the role it has, the address. Each component would know the count of the dependency it requires within the overlay to bootstrap itself. For example, in EC2, we would request all these different machines at once. Kafka would be bootstrapping at the same time as ZooKeeper, Hadoop would be bootstrapping alongside. Each machine, when bootstrapped, would advertise itself in the overlay and the overlay would trigger a Chef run with a hand crafted run list for the specific role it belonged to. So each node would effectively receive a notification about every new member and decide to take an action, or not. Once 5 ZKs are up, Kafka nodes would configure themselves for ZooKeeper and launch. Eventually Kafka cluster was up. Similar process would've happen on all other systems, eventually leading to a complete cluster of over 70 VMs running (from memory) about 30 different systems being completely operational. Databases, dashboards, MQTT brokers, TLS, whatnot. We used to launch this thing at least once a day. The system would usually become operational within under half an hour, unless EC2 was slacking off. Our gossip layer was trivial. In this sort of platform there are always certain nodes that should reachable from outside: web server, load balancer, mqtt broker. Each of those would become a seed, any other node would contact one of those public nodes and start participating.

From the capabilities perspective, the closest thing resembling that kind infrastructure today, is HashiCorp Consul. Our gossip from Virdata is essentially what the service catalog in Consul is, our Chef triggers is what watches in Consul are. With these two things, anybody can put up a distributed platform like what you are describing in your talk and what we've built at Virdata. There are obviously dirty details like, one needs to have a clear separation of installation, configuration and run of the systems within the deployment. The packages can be installed concurrently on different machines, application of the configuration triggers the start (or restart), system becomes operational.

Or do I completely miss the point of the talk. I'd like to hear more about your experiences with Mesos. You're not the first person claiming that it doesn't really scale as far as the maintainers suggest.

By the way, HyParView, good to know, I've missed this in my own research. Maybe it's time to dust off gossiperl.

* edit: wording

⬐ jamesblonde

Karamel is an interesting orchestration platform for chef solo that does what you are describing. But it is general purpose - add orchestration rules to chef cookbooks and then artibrarily compose platforms of services in a single compact yaml file. In contrast to gossiperl, it is centralized. Might be interesting to combine the two!

⬐ polskibus

How does lasp stack compare to Akka's?

⬐ elcritch

This is great! I'm continuously nonplussed by deployment systems which require bootstrapping a master to bootstrap the system. Docker Swarm, Kubernetes, Rancher, Project FIFO, etc all require setting up hosts machines, designating some coordinator node(s), and then turning on the system.

Working a lot in IoT fields, or even with onsite deployments of services, this pattern becomes a blocker. It's more difficult than traditional "setup a server, turn it on, install software" approach, especially for small deployments. There's a lot of need (IMHO) for various orchestration systems which are self-boostrapping and fully P2P for smaller teams deploying on clouds, IoT devices in a given locale, research labs etc.

I've been watching your work for a while, and it's great you're moving toward usable systems! Is there a good place to watch your work and/or engage with the community? I'm starting work on some new IoT devices, and while this won't be directly applicable I'd like to play around with some of the core ideas.

⬐ None

None

⬐ cmeiklejohn

We have a Slack, so you can reach out to me on Twitter at @cmeik and I'll be happy to invite you. We have several almost-production users we have been fixing bugs and the Lasp slack is the place to go to get more information about what we are doing and how you can influence our future direction.

⬐ cmeiklejohn

That said, I haven't been able to figure out how to make a Slack that isn't invite only.

⬐ biggestlou

You can't, as far as I know. You can do this, though: https://www.skill-space.com/blog/2015/11/16/create-an-auto-i...

⬐ ramchip

Seconding this. Both Elixir and Erlang (https://erlang-slack.herokuapp.com/) use one for their slack channel, and it works great.

⬐ elcritch

That'd be great! I'll have to digup a dusty twitter account. I may be more of a lurker for now, but seeing how Lasp is shaping up would be pretty valuable.

A public slack would be nice. It seemed like LASP might be dead for a while when looking at some of the project pages a few months ago. Understandable when you're focused on solving hard problems, but an FYI from an outside perspective. This talk is really helpful in seeing what you've learned and where it's going. Thanks again!

⬐ cmeiklejohn

How do you suggest we move forward? We tried slack, but being invitation only prohibited us for making a big impact.

What's the right way to build an open community? What do you recommend?

⬐ shalabhc

Another option is gitter.im, which links to your github project and doesn't have to be invite only.

⬐ cmeiklejohn

I've setup a gitter here: https://gitter.im/lasp-lang/lasp