HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ dagmx

The character skinning at 0:45 is horrific. The other character work is better than that but not by much. it’s odd they focus so much on characters here because they’re quite terrible compared to the rest of the content on show.

The joint placements are wrong , with shoulder joints placed too low and too far out. Weighting is also badly applied with vertices on the opposite side being affected. A little bit of candy wrapping on forearms too.

The rest of the content is at a much higher quality, but they’re doing a disservice to themselves by showing those characters.

⬐ bragr

Wow, you are not wrong. What kind of weird homunculus is that?

⬐ stavros

It's a scarecrow wearing a human skin.

⬐ derac

If the author is reading this, Unreal MetaHuman is very nice. I wonder if they were having performance issues with a large number of human models though.

⬐ tomduncalf

It might be of interest to some to know that you can now play FS2020 via Xbox Cloud, so you don't need to have a high spec PC if you are just curious. They do a free trial period and I think it's $/£10 a month after. It's the Xbox version so you need an Xbox controller, I'm not really sure what the other differences are but I had a lot of fun just looking around the world, the streaming works pretty well on the whole!

⬐ sandworm101

A flight sim using an xbox controller... is not a flight sim. You dont play minesweeper with a joystick.

⬐ solardev

It's not like the hotas joysticks represent typical airliner controls anyway.

It's just a game... and the console controllers have analog sticks and throttles, along with gyros and a dpad that could double as a hat switch. They're fine for casual sims and some prefer them :)

Certainly a lot more couch friendly than a hotas on your lap

⬐ fishtacos

A basic HOTAS (T.Flight HOTAS One) is 65$ USD right now at Best Buy and works with PC as well. Makes a huge difference for such a small price, but it's very entry level. I assume you know this already, so it's more of a PSA for anyone else reading the thread.

The one annoyance I have with Xbox Cloud is that fact that it won't pass through any controller that's not a standard one. Works with third party controllers just fine, but not a friggin' joystick, which has the exact same inputs, just mapped differently. I hate arbitrary limitations.

⬐ axiomdata316

You are correct. You play minesweeper with a Navy requisitioned battleship. Currently it appears that the Sandown-class minehunter is the most recent model. Then you need to find a place with mines and probably right now the Black Sea is your best bet. Who play's minesweeper with a joystick. Or even a mouse?!

⬐ Toutouxc

Unless you're doing aerobatics, an Xbox/PS controller is very much useable if you tweak your input curves just right (VERY non-linear) with maybe some smoothing.

⬐ dharmab

People have figured out how to successfully dogfight in DCS with Xbox controllers. Microsoft spent millions engineering those controllers to the point you have to spend over double the price for a flight stick with comparable or better sensors and inputs.

⬐ tomduncalf

Sure but it depends what you're after, in my case I was really just curious to play the game and take a look at the graphics etc. and this worked fine for me. Probably better than mouse and keyboard would anyway

⬐ Terretta

Counterpoint: model plane controllers are a lot more like that Xbox controller than like either a keyboard + mouse or a full Thrustmaster setup.

⬐ ancientworldnow

The US military uses Xbox controllers for some UAV's. Snobbery over input devices is counterproductive when someone is discussing accessibility.

⬐ sandworm101

Flight sim. Not drone sim.

⬐ Rebelgecko

They're referring to UAV/UAS, a type of drone that flies. FS2020 even has a "drone mode" built in to the camera options.

⬐ iancmceachern

I've worked on surgical robots where we used Xbox controllers to control the robot.

⬐ ChuckNorris89

>you need an Xbox controller

Is that true? The German page at least says PS controllers and others are also supported.

⬐ tomduncalf

Oh sorry yeah, you are right! I just went with the Xbox controller as I figured it would map most closely to what the game expects

⬐ boboche

Still remember FS 1.0 on an IBM PCjr with cheezy sounds and pseudo vector graphics, yet it was amazing. I’m grateful (and still amazed) seeing this level of tech today through my inner-kid’s eyes of back then.

One can only wonder how it will be in the next decades.

Hard to NOT at least consider we are living in a simulation too ;).

⬐ atemerev

The entire “living in the simulation” premise raises too many questions. Like, the simulation of what? Is there a “real world” that is being simulated? Who, then, simulates our world, and for what purpose?

The universe can well be a computation, but “simulation” is a whole another thing.

⬐ setr

The simulation… of this. Video games are all simulations of universes of varying complexity and laws, only some of which corresponding to our reality. More generally, there’s no requirement that a complex/comprehensive simulation must reflect some reality — it just needs to be internally consistent.

Why is also not really a requirement either; we already know that “for its own sake” and “because I could” has been sufficient justification for many of our concoctions. There could be a real reason… but it doesn’t really matter if there is or isn’t. Let’s say to compute the ultimate question to the universe.

And the Who, ultimately, exists outside of our universe, and thus presumably cannot be identified (just as your sims character does not know of you… he can only detect your impact on his world — if you impact it).

The main issue with the simulation argument is that it doesn’t matter if it were true; if the simulation is done correctly, it’s indistinguishable from not-simulation — and you presumably only exist within the simulation so there’s no matrix-style breakout. There’s nothing to do with this information

⬐ redsparrow

I couldn't land without crashing but luckily the terrain was perfectly flat so I could just drive where I wanted to go. I did a few long distance, cross-country drives by pointing in the right direction and setting an alarm. At the prescribed time I would come back and make minor corrections before finally parking at my destination airport.

⬐ drittich

I played many long hours with that. I still have the original disk it ran from, a single 5 1/4" floppy.

⬐ s-macke

It is just two clicks away: https://s-macke.github.io/FSHistory/

⬐ tomduncalf

FS4 <3 I used to play this for hours as a kid! What a trip to see it again. Thank you for sharing! For 1989, it's pretty impressive...

⬐ jsrcout

This is great! Runs a lot faster than on the Apple II back in the day, too.

⬐ MR4D

Holy cow - that’s faster than most modern websites load!

And playable on an iPhone as well !

Thanks for sharing.

⬐ s-macke

Thanks.

The website is fast because most of the code is written in plain C and compiled to WebAssembly. No libs or frameworks are involved, not even libc. The memory allocation code is three lines in total. The emulator runs also outside of the browser with libSDL.

⬐ pohl

I played the original Sublogic Flight Simulator on my TRS-80 Model I, dogfighting three enemy flying aces, each represented as a single block "pixel". I haven't played it since Microsoft acquired it, though. Has it changed much?

⬐ GekkePrutser

Until and including FSX there were still many things carried over from the sublogic days. Like the key indings, picture in picture modes etc.

Msfs2020 was a clean room rewrite though so there aren't any there.

⬐ 7speter

Theres also videos of modded GTA V that the makers of said video says “overheats their 3090 (can’t confirm because I don’t own a 3090).” It seems pretty striking, at times, at least to me:

https://youtu.be/kBsNvGyfM8Y

⬐ shostack

I'm a huge MSFS nerd with lots of hardware and play exclusively in VR (albeit on a Q2) with a 3080 and 5800x. It is jaw dropping at times, and frustratingly close at others. And when I'm frustrated I try to remind myself how good this experience could be 5 years from now, especially as VR FOV and OLED -driven contrast improvements pick up.

I can see my house complete with car in the driveway. I've navigated IRL on a discovery flight based on knowledge from the sim. My muscle memory messed me up a bit when flying IRL on a discovery flight due to how used I am to all my Virpil Mongoose throttle bindings since I fly in VR, but I still knew where just about everything was in the da40 cockpit and how it worked.

I was not prepared for the importance of physical sensations, or frankly the sensory overload due to the higher frame rates, "graphics", and physical sensations or flying IRL and it stuck with me the entire night.

At the risk of bad habits or missing important details or legal stuff, I'm now reasonably comfortable copying an ifr clearance on vatsim, basic ATC phraseology, airspace restrictions, reading various charts, and flying a pattern.

If any modders are reading this, I'd pay good money for a well done version of KSQL and KPAO. I'm frankly shocked nobody has done that yet even though the models exist from xplane.

⬐ taybrutal

The ‘someone just lost their job’ had me dying

⬐ aaronmdjones

I've done a lot of FSX over the years and I'm starting to get into MSFS these days, and at least half of the time the ATC tries to kill me in some manner or other. I wasn't surprised when I saw that at all.

⬐ FearlessNebula

I have my private pilot license and I instinctually tensed up when I saw that plane crossing the runway...

⬐ shostack

Watch some vatsim videos. It's hysterical at times.

⬐ cheschire

That’s the thing that tends to keep me from getting into simulators. There’s always some suspension of disbelief involved. I never care enough about the core loop to get lost in the detail of it, so I end up picking apart the world around it.

I did however get the feeling when FS2020 came out that the line between map and territory is getting a lot fuzzier.

⬐ BossingAround

I think "suspension belief required" is what keeps me from FSX as well. Greatly put!

⬐ ourmandave

FS modders doing missions extensions.

Like here's Miracle on the Hudson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9givHxjTJ0

And this is the ultra realistic preflight to the cargo mission Hong Kong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuVemrruDTg

⬐ BossingAround

This looks amazing from the simulation point of view, and if you are interested in flying planes, this looks like a place to be. It makes me want to buy a state-of-the-art PC, joysticks, and actually learn how to fly planes in the simulator.

At the risk of sounding flippant though, the graphics are still not great. Now, I absolutely understand how computationally demanding flight simulators are, but I can't help but feel that Microsoft oversold the graphics capability of FSX. As someone noted in the thread, for me, this means there's still some suspension of belief required.

I just cannot wait until we have a flight simulator that has graphics comparable to non-simulator games. I think that might actually compel me to spend the $10k (or however much you need for the compute power and peripherals) and invest the time in such simulator. Maybe when I'm retired, I will get to experience the dream of flying planes in what feels like almost another reality.

⬐ qzw

You can get that today with a high-end VR headset and a full motion rig. The human eye (or rather, brain) will never be completely fooled by a 2D image placed a few feet away. But when you’re have a 3D image that fills your entire FOV, your brain will put up with much more and even help by filling in details where there’s none.

⬐ bergenty

What are you referring to. The graphics were stunning? Are you referring to the tiny number of low poly assets like the oil pipe refilling the fuel? There were maybe 10 of those in the entire video.

⬐ drivers99

FSX is from 2006 but that’s not the one you meant. It’s relevant to the graphics you mentioned though. Graphics comparison of different versions: https://youtu.be/CchRwnTorjY 2.0 was the first one I saw and 3.0 was the first one I actually owned. You can have fun flying around even with those graphics. FSX was fun but definitely seemed more like a computer world. 2020 blows me away since it feels like you’re exploring the real world (although it’s funny when a building I live or work in that is only a couple years old is a construction site in the game). I built a new PC in 2020 to play it and it’s closer to $1000 not $10000. I had to wait until this year when the video card shortage ended to buy the video card I wanted though. And I bought a nice yoke: https://flyhoneycomb.com/collections/honeycomb-flight-sim-ha... so somewhere around $2000 total I guess. I’m sure MS Flight Simulator 2035 will make 2020 look like pong, but no reason to wait that long. :)

⬐ hinoki

What part didn’t you like about the graphics? I think the external shots looked quite good, especially the lighting through the clouds. I’ve never seen a real plane that immaculate, so that was a bit unrealistic.

I also liked the haze/heat waves from the engine exhaust, but I think it actually looks more blurry in real life.

The lighting on the interior views was unrealistic, but I think that’s a conscious decision to make the controls legible?

⬐ zokier

Biggest problem with the graphics here is general unevenness. Some stuff looks really good which makes the less great parts stick out even more.

Many textures shown here were bit low-res so that pixelation/blurriness is visible in closeups, in cockpit, plane exterior, and ground. Small thing but the tires looked very bad, sticking out like sore thumb. In cockpit you can also see (because the low-res textures) how some of the fasteners are just textures and not geometry, making them look bit off.

> The lighting on the interior views was unrealistic, but I think that’s a conscious decision to make the controls legible?

Maybe, but on the other hand DCS has fully shaded cockpits and I haven't heard much complaints about legibility there.

⬐ Hawxy

I think the texture issues are due to the underlying plane model being a port from PMDGs previous releases on older simulators. If you look at a greenfield plane built specifically for MSFS like the Fenix a320 the texture work is immaculate.

⬐ sio8ohPi

I think the video highlights FS2020 at it's best, and it looks very good to me.

The problem is that it's a global simulator: this is a major part of its appeal and marketing. If you only ever plan to fly airliners between handcrafted payware cities, it will look pretty great. As soon as you start flying VFR outside those points, the generated terrain shows its limits. I don't fly it often, but when last I flew:

* The generator couldn't handle windmills. You would see them as flat, projected images on the landscape with no 3d asset.

* It can't handle boats. Again, they're rendered as flat images on the water. Marinas in particular look bad, because they fade out as they get away from shore.

* It can't handle washes. You'll fly over the desert and see a glossy sheen of reflective water where the sim thinks there should be a waterway, but it's quite obvious that no water was present when photos were taken.

* It can't handle meandering streams. You'll see that same glossy sheen cutting a straight line over the terrain, while the photographed stream meanders back and forth.

* It can't handle bridges: you'll see cars drive right through the bridge and along the terrain underneath it.

⬐ shostack

Some of these are fair criticism. There's a few key things missing for immersion, especially if you're flying low and slow.

By contrast though, I mostly fly VFR in the Bay Area in the sim. I can see my house, complete with our car in the driveway (although I'm annoyed it has older imagery from before landscaping).

When I went on a discovery flight IRL, I was stunned by how easily I could navigate from the air and locate my home. It was eerily familiar. Same when I went on a flight in Kauai. I was able to plan out photos in advance. I was equally stunned with how familiar the airport felt.

This has all aided visual familiarity with the traffic patterns at these places, especially KSQL where you have to watch out for the bravo.

Given recent improvements and where it's heading,I have nothing but high hopes and faith it will improve. Hell, we have an addon that adds more bird traffic. My only gripe is how expensive or subscription based some addons are that shouldn't be.

⬐ dperfect

The realism is high, but the micro stutters are what break the immersion for me. Apparently you can't avoid it completely in MSFS – even on high end GPUs. On the other hand, maybe that's just proof it's something that could be fixed in an update... I'm not holding my breath though.

⬐ alexjplant

They aren't kidding about the San Diego airport's proximity to downtown... I can literally see my apartment as we land if I sit on the appropriate side of the plane and I typically walk home down Pacific Highway to stretch my legs after a flight.

⬐ snapdaddy

The first time I tried this simulator, it looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtrB5sQtrvA

Of course, that was not on an RTX 3090.

⬐ BossingAround

And yet, we are still not "there" yet, I think.

⬐ JKCalhoun

For me it was when it was still Sub Logic, and on an Apple ][. Nonetheless, blew my teenage mind.

https://youtu.be/uvvfJ60gIf0

⬐ mkl95

It may already be a thing, but simulating weather and feeding it something like Earthdata [1] would be extremely cool and potentially useful.

[1] https://www.earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/find-data/near-real-tim...

⬐ DavideNL

Not sure what you mean exactly, but live weather is already implemented in the simulator by default.

⬐ drivers99

Flight Simulator 2020 does indeed have live weather as an option. https://youtu.be/ZszIT8eCIiw

⬐ mrtksn

Can anyone well versed on the GPU and PC market describe the situation with the gears needed to have this experience? Can you obtain the hardware needed in reasonable time, effort and cost?

BTW, I'm pleasantly surprised that this game hasn't been canceled at some point after the 9/11.

⬐ tomduncalf

I posted this in the main thread but in case you don't see it, the quickest way to try it out is via Xbox Cloud. You need an Xbox controller to play it, but then it just streams to your Mac/PC/iPad and IME worked really quite well

⬐ leobg

Can you use the keyboard also? And joystick/rudder hardware? I mean in addition to the controller.

⬐ tomduncalf

Not as far as I know. Maybe some Xbox approved devices might work?

⬐ notjustanymike

The specs are in the description. It's a pretty standard high end gaming machine, paired with some oversized monitors. You could easily pull it all together for under $5,000, and even make a few cost saving compromises to lower the price.

⬐ mrtksn

So the GPU shortage is no longer a thing?

⬐ xnyan

Prices have been collapsing for at least a month, and it only seems to be getting better (or worse, depending on which side of the deal you are on). Retailers are having a very hard time unloading their 30xx stock because 40xx is right around the corner, and NV is likely slowing down the 40xx rollout to give their partners more time to get rid of stock before it becomes worth even less.

⬐ Stevvo

The most reasonable time, effort and cost to get this experience would be an Xbox Series X. There are a few graphics optimizations compared to the PC version maxed out, but you get 99% of the way there.

As for actual PC hardware; any current-gen GPU you can get your hands on will do, the faster the better. Preferably with an Intel processor for the highest performance possible.

⬐ opinologo

isn't AMD Raizen the fastest nowadays?

⬐ Stevvo

Not for Flight Simulator and some other games.

⬐ None

None

⬐ Havoc

I wonder if this has value for commercial pilot training.

i.e. Instead of sticking them straight into a proper simulator, you loan them 15k worth of consumer tech for home. Not as a replacement, but as intermediate step

⬐ kuon

As a pilot, I'd say that for learning how to fly it's near to useless, except if you have a really good setup with force feedback and similar. The first time I took off in a pipercub, I had thousands of simulator hours behind me (arguably way older than fly sim 2022), and I don't think I handled the plane better than someone with no experience, it was a new surprising feeling all the way.

But. For instrument training, multi tasking, navigation and radio, fly simulators give you the real thing, it's a really nice tool for that. You can have replica of the whole instruments with very realistic rendering and this helps a lot. For radio, there are a lot of pro air nav controllers that hang around VATSIM and you can have the real thing from your PC.

⬐ BossingAround

Right now, I don't think so unless companies like Boeing start building their own simulators on top of FSX. Right now, a pilot must be certified to fly a plane, which might include simulator hours. The airplane manufacturer then builds their own simulations, as far as I am aware.

It's a great question though to wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper for companies to build the simulators on top of something like FSX. Create something like the upstream training where you can train, until you get to the "production" simulator from the manufacturer, where you simply prove you have the required knowledge as a pilot.

⬐ doener

I talked to a certified German pilot about that. He said that pilots right now use two different kind of simulators for training.

1. Simulators which have a 1:1 copy of the cockpit and use the https://www.prepar3d.com/ software from Lockheed Martin (based on a very old MS Flight Simulator software, I think originally 2006). These simulators however are not a perfect simulation of the physics and are only used to practice communication between tower and pilot and between pilot and co-pilot. Hours spent in this simulation do not count as flight hours. A simulator like that costs around 250.000 euros and can be tried out by everybody in Berlin for example:

https://www.mydays.de/geschenkidee/airbus-320-berlin

2. A simulator also with a 1:1 copy of the cockpit with very basic graphics, but very accurate simulated physics model. These kind of simulator moves and behaved almost exactly like the real plane would do. Such a simulator costs, if I remember correctly, about 15 million euros. Hours spent in this simulator count as flight hours during pilot training – at least in Germany.

⬐ sokoloff

That might be true for Germany, but for US/FAA, the high-5-figure/low-6-figure training devices from Redbird are able to be logged (as sim time) and that time credited towards practical experience for required ratings.

https://simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/topic/simulato...

⬐ trasz

No idea about MSFS, but X-Plane, its main competition, is developed by a small consultancy company and I believe I remember them mentioning commercial support on their website.

⬐ Retric

The short answer is no, the core issue learning the basics of flying is quick. It’s learning all the failure modes that’s time consuming. Better graphics don't actually add wake turbulence from passing aircraft, malfunctioning sensors from an electrical fault, etc.

⬐ zokier

Considering that Lockheeds Prepar3d is a tweaked version of FSX, I'd imagine that doing similar thing with FS2020 would be possible too.

⬐ textide

Flight Instructor here. MSFS and its predecessors are invaluable in pilot training, particularly for the Instrument rating. The value is in the modeling of navigation systems, noot so much the scenery or exterior of the aircraft.

Set visibility to 1/2 statute mile, ceiling at 300ft and practice full approaches to your heart's content. I recommend shutting off the ATC that ships with MSFS and using VATSIM or one of the other 3rd party human ATC systems available. Use Airnav.com for free US charts.

At $200/flight hour, spending $1000-2000 on a high end PC, rudder pedals and decent joystick and throttle will save students money. MSFS doesn't replace training, but helps in handling the mental load of instrument flight.

⬐ offsky

Are there any ultra realism simulators for other professions (aside from soldier)? I’m thinking cargo ship captain, electrician, kindergarten teacher, phlebotomist, etc.

⬐ thendrill

There is farming simulator.... Euro Truck simulator is pretty close to full realism too.

U got iRacing for racing drivers.

⬐ daly

At 10:45 I nearly had a heart attack

⬐ yotamoron

This is epic.

⬐ quux

I wonder why there was no PAPI at SAN?

⬐ _fat_santa

"This Aircraft is Obviously an Airbus A737 NeoMax" had me dying laughing.

⬐ scarygliders

If anyone is interested in watching how real airline pilots use MSFS 2020 and yes even X-Plane 11, I have a couple of suggestions;

V1-Simulations is a real airline Captain who flies Airbus : https://www.youtube.com/user/acdelta57

flightdeck2sim is also a real airline captain who flies BOEING : https://www.youtube.com/c/flightdeck2sim

Both are fun to watch and both use as much real life procedures as is possible in a desktop simulator. I've learned a LOT from watching their livestreams and tutorial VODs.

⬐ cbgonz

For the more European view of flying an airbus, this also form a real life airline pilot: https://www.youtube.com/c/320SimPilot ; very entertaining and instructive MSFS and Xplane 11)

⬐ rwmj

I suppose you could add Mentour Pilot (https://www.youtube.com/c/MentourPilotaviation/videos), although it's not like your examples. He's a real airline pilot and uses MSFS to make popular videos about airline safety.