HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

FTA: “40% of SF traffic fatalities in 2019 involved drivers making left turns who didn’t see the person in the crosswalk until it was too late.”

If there are traffic lights, there should not be anybody on those crosswalks. Neither should there be “incoming traffic, including bicyclists”.

Good junction/traffic light design avoids having streams of traffic crossing each other (“conflict free intersections”). See https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2020/08/11/signals-for-chang... and the (linked from there) video https://youtube.com/watch?v=knbVWXzL4-4

Here's a link to some traffic light systems that you can trust most of the time. But nothing is perfect, so you're still required to pay attention yourself too, of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knbVWXzL4-4

Pedestrians generally have right of way. Singapore is pretty exceptional in this. Further, loads of Asian countries are pretty poor safety wise. I don't think a comparison to other Asian countries is beneficial. Singapore probably also benefits that owning a car is quite expensive, plus sort of ok public transport (a bus is terribly slow though!). Singapore still heavily favours a car. A public transport ride can be easily 2x-3x the time as a car trip.

From your link: > Elderly pedestrians accounted for two-thirds of all pedestrian fatalities. (1 in 2 accidents involving elderly pedestrians was due to jaywalking)

Singapore does seem safe in a deaths/100k comparison. There's some EU figures where the best country does about ~20/million (so around ~2.0/100k). Singapore has 2.2/100k.

Things such as "jaywalking" is not a thing in loads of countries.

Also, the traffic lights are horrendous. You need to wait way too long. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knbVWXzL4-4 for various examples of way quicker lights.

The Not Just Bikes Youtube channel has a nice video on Dutch traffic light coordination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knbVWXzL4-4&t=312s

⬐ teleforce

Does the Dutch utlizes some kind of AI for their intelligent traffic control?

I believe if only 10% of the effort that goes to research on level 5 autonomous vehicle, that we probably never achieve in our lifetime, is spent instead on smart and connected traffic lights integration with vehicles it will make 10x better driver, cyclist and pedestrian experience [1].

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22980931

⬐ greatgib

This is real great engineering!

Tldr key facts:

- be smart and detect actual traffic for modifying the red light behavior in real time

- for example, switch to green immediately for walkers if there is no car even if the displayed countdown is not yet finished.

- operate independently each red light of a section to not need to have them operate stupidly in symmetric/synchronized state machine cycles.

Don't just give a priority to car or bicycles, but try to ensure that everyone get the less friction and maximum mobility possible.

⬐ simion314

I think you should also add a point for public transport, a bus with 30 people should not have the same priority like a car with 1 person in it. Trying to keep public transport always moving will also have other benefits.

⬐ mrandish

That's an interesting idea, however it could lead to some unintended consequences such as cars being incentivized to 'caravan' with busses.

⬐ notjustbikes

Transit should always be in it own lane (as it is in most of the Netherlands) so there's no downside to this.

⬐ wjnc

Solved as well. Special bus lanes exist and have separate lights that (seem to) get priority in these smart systems, at least over cars. The fun thing is that these are often routed parallel to the bike routes, at least in the few examples I can think of right now, so if the bus comes and gets priority the cyclists get green as well. Never thought about that our traffic lights could be something special.

⬐ mrandish

> "be smart and detect actual traffic for modifying the red light behavior in real time"

This is something I've been frustrated by for years. "Autonomous Cars" are hard. Autonomous traffic lights should be much easier. Here in the suburbs there are tons of stoplight intersections between small residential neighborhoods and central arteries where cross traffic is fairly rare. There are sensors in the roadway to detect cars waiting but they are still incredibly slow to change as they seem to stick to minimum timers during most of the day. The crazy part is that one or two cars waiting to cross often wait two minutes for the apparent timer to expire and the light to change while there was no oncoming traffic the other way that would have been inconvenienced by an immediate change. The cross-traffic cycles are very short anyway because there's only a couple cars at most.

Even more perverse is the number of times I sit waiting two minutes with no approaching cross traffic in sight from either direction, then when some cars are finally approaching, then it stops them with a red so I can cross. A semi-smart system based on a Raspberry Pi-level SBC with a camera would have had me on my way while no one was coming. It seems like in the aggregate camera-based autonomous traffic lights could save enormous amounts of fuel and time.

⬐ dmarinus

Lol this seems to contain footage from Amsterdam. My experience is that a lot of people ignore red lights specifically in Amsterdam.

⬐ mcv

They certainly do, but I also think it's been happening less since they started introducing these smarter traffic light systems. People are more likely to ignore a red light when they don't know why or for how long they'll be waiting.

⬐ seaghost

There is a same system in Antwerp, Belgium, not at every intersection though.

⬐ rrll22

[Video] in the title

⬐ gibatronic

After a year of living in Amsterdam with zero close calls, I realized how important segregated cycling lanes are.

Any other solution is purely palliative.

⬐ bobwernstein

It's because we pay extremely high road taxes and purchase taxes on cars. That's why.

⬐ notjustbikes

Yes. In the Netherlands, drivers pay closer to the true cost of driving. That's a good thing. It should be higher though, to help offset the externalities that drivers cost society.

⬐ bobwernstein

only when you need brand new roads and high tech traffic lights. I simply don't value that stuff but I don't make the rules here. The belgium system works far better for me. Less tax and bad roads. Works fine.

⬐ notjustbikes

I lived in Brussels for two years. Traffic is crippling and the infrastructure is terrible. Brussels has the worst traffic in Western Europe. It's horrible. That's what you get when you don't invest properly in infrastructure and alternatives to driving.

⬐ bobwernstein

I know lol and I prefer it that way and keep more of my money. What don't you understand about that lol.

⬐ Arnt

An additional car needs >100m additional road lane, except in unusual and uninteresting cases. Try comparing the tax you pay with the cost of acquiring >300m² of land in the areas where you want to drive and building road on it.

⬐ bobwernstein

why would I when I can just look at my neighboring countries where taxes are lower and quality of roads is therefor also lower?

⬐ tonyedgecombe

Don’t watch this channel if you are a cyclist or pedestrian in North America. You will only get depressed about how bad your infrastructure is for people without cars.

⬐ notjustbikes

Yeah, sorry. My bad.

⬐ rob74

Just so the North American cyclists and pedestrians don't get too depressed: it's also depressing to watch if you come from other European countries. I for one am from Germany, where the cycling/pedestrian infrastructure is undeniably better in most places, but car traffic still has top priority no matter what politicians may say. Small example: the busy S-Bahn (regional train) / U-Bahn (subway) / bus interchange at Harras in Munich (https://goo.gl/maps/doaJT4vq7viDyK9v5). The western exit of the subway station, which is under the railway underpass, had to be used also if you came from the train station and wanted to legally cross the street to get a bus on the other side - you had to go from level +1 to -1 and then back to ground level. While remodeling the area, they wanted to enable pedestrians to cross at street level too. So now you have traffic lights where pedestrians have to push a button and wait for > 30 seconds to get a green light. Which in most cases means that you have to choose between crossing despite the red light or losing your bus. So a lot of money was spent, but the stated goal of encouraging walking, cycling and using public transit was still turned into a bad joke, because the "prime directive" is still to make sure that pedestrians and cyclists inconvenience car traffic as little a possible.