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The lamps you're not allowed to have. Exploring the Dubai lamps
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All the comments and stories posted to Hacker News that reference this video.Dubai Lamps might interest you. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
⬐ goodpointAt least this time the cartel is not completely secret.⬐ bradknowlesYeah, you really need some good doobies, man! ;)⬐ userbinatorDiscussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27093793
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4The bulbs you're not allowed to buy.
There are in fact LED bulbs that aren't overdriven to a deliberate and premature thermal death, but you can only buy them in Dubai: https://youtu.be/klaJqofCsu4Lightbulbs have a long and very successful history of artificially driving lightbulb lifetimes down though a cartel system: https://youtu.be/j5v8D-alAKE
If you're building your own LED fixtures, you can probably underdrive the LEDs and run them at a radically cooler and slightly more efficient operating point, at a higher upfront cost: you need more LEDs for the same output.
Big Clive does this sort of thing on his YouTube channel fairly often. A few examples:* Adjusting a current regulator to drop a 10W lamp to ~2W - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeWnHnZ-ojw
* Adjusting a capacitive dropper-based lamp from 5W to 0.5W - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKRz7EplgDE
* Making a "Dooby" (inspired by the Philips Dubai lamps[1]) lamp - using a series capacitor to make various lamps run at 0.1-2W - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISTB0ThzhOY
[1] They're designed to have a higher energy efficiency and a longer operational life - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
although it certainly is true these days, that the average LED based bulb is pushing those LEDs hard, which incidentally also makes them less efficient, rather than just using more of them at the same wattage.Check out the dubai lamp to see a lamp designed to be efficient and last:
⬐ LargoLasskhyfvThe Dubai Lamp is not that special. There are similar lamps with only slightly more wattage, but also slightly more lumen. Osram Professional LED Retrofit Classic, or somesuch for instance. In Europe. Don't know about the Americas, Asia...⬐ asddubsI googled that model, it doesn't really seem to have all that many filaments for its wattage rating, so I doubt it's underdriving those LEDs like the dubai lamp. The special thing about it isn't the lumen/wattage, but the longevity by reducing the amount of stress on the LEDs⬐ LargoLasskhyfvWhen this made the rounds first a while ago, I wondered what the fuss was about and compared. At that time I had only the 'candles' with E14 socket, non-dimmable, clear, at 2.5W, 230V/50Hz:[1] https://www.osram.com/ecat/PARATHOM%20Retrofit%20CLASSIC%20B...
which seemed comparable, though running at about double wattage.
Anyway, they last and last, and I'm perfectly happy with their light.
Meanwhile I upgraded everything else also, and have a few of these
[2] https://www.osram.com/ecat/PARATHOM%20Retrofit%20CLASSIC%20A...
also non-dimmable and clear, for lamps with a single E24 socket, which should be bright, at 7.5W & 10.0W, 230V/50Hz.
Still very happy with the light, but can't say much about lasting, because only about 2 to 3 years in use, while the candles are now 5 to 6 years old.
All 2700k btw. I like it that way.
edit: I should add, before that I followed the fad with the CFL stuff, none of which lasted longer than 6 months,
made ugly light, and that not even instantly(warm up), sometimes with noisy chirping.
So for me it looks like I should have skipped the CFL phase until these were available.
⬐ formerly_provenTo be honest I wouldn't want to light living spaces with CRI 80 LEDs, no matter how long they last or how efficient they are.⬐ LargoLasskhyfvYah, Yah. I hear that so often. Maybe I'm colorblind, and you are all tetrachromates, but I don't see any color-misrepresentations here. And I've tested that.
The same game is still played today with LED bulbs (whether there's a cartel behind it or not, I do not pretend to know). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
> the fault is not in the actual light emitting element but (of course) in the driver....Being over-driven.
Big Clive loves to tear down LED bulbs to examine the driver boards. Often shows you ways to drop the current to sustainable levels and get back your 20-year lifespan LED bulbs (caveat, at lower power levels).
https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom
More specifically, example: https://youtu.be/klaJqofCsu4
Interesting to see no mention of the "Dubai lamp". There was a previous discussion on HN [0], and of course the Big Clive videos about it [1]. In short, the LEDs are underrun, which increases the efficiency, and should increase the lifetime (which as the article mentions is mainly related to heat). Edit: They're called "Dubai lamps", because they're only supposed to be sold there (even though Philips makes them).
⬐ ksecI think I asked last time and didn't actually get an answer.There are no reason why we cant, or any other vendor cant recreate Dubai Lamps elsewhere. The only reason why it isn't sold elsewhere is because Philips thought there are no market for it due to cost issues.
Now the idea has spread on the internet, why do they not make one to test the market?
⬐ guitarbillWhat incentive do they have for producing longer-lasting bulbs? If they make them more expensive, will the general population buy them? A lot of people buy the cheapest option.I could imagine enterprising individuals shipping Dubai lamps in smaller quantities. I've orderer high CRI LEDs from abroad, so maybe there's a similar niche market (that's simply not worth Philips' time). But AFAIK, the Dubai lamps are only available in cold white, and in temperate climates, it seems that warm white is preferred. It's possible there's some export issue there though with UL/ETL listing.
> Light bulbs don’t illuminate.I find this one especially funny as it's pretty much the lack of regulation that made the 'old' bulbs burn out much too quickly [1].
And before someone says "but my LED bulbs keep burning out", also the free-market/lack of regulation. To see how they should be built watch Clive on how bulbs are made for Dubai[2].
⬐ josephcsibleYes, those Dubai bulbs are better than the ones we're all stuck with. But isn't that because of a regulation rather than because of the market? In particular, when Dubai accepted those kind of bulbs, didn't it prevent the manufacturer from selling them anywhere else?⬐ kenmacd> But isn't that because of a regulation rather than because of the market?Yes. Sorry, that was what I was trying to convey. The 'market' brought us incandescent bulbs that were purpose built to fail much earlier . The market brought us LED bulbs that overdrive fewer LEDs resulting in them burning out and running less efficiently.
Dubai, in essence, went the regulation road and has longer-lasting more-efficient bulbs because of it.
⬐ josephcsibleThat's not what I meant. My point was that Dubai has a regulation that prohibits their efficient LEDs from being sold anywhere else. If not for that regulation, then the efficient Dubai bulbs could be bought worldwide.⬐ kenmacdI don't understand. How does Dubai control what other sovereign nations citizens are allowed to buy? And even if they did, why would they do so?⬐ josephcsibleI assume it was by saying something to the effect of "if you want to do business here, then you have to follow our rules globally" to the manufacturer, and that one of the rules was that they not sell those bulbs elsewhere. And I don't know why they did, but doesn't Clive's video say that they are only allowed to be sold in Dubai?⬐ kenmacdNot as far as I know. It wouldn't make sense for them to push for more manufacturers to make more efficient bulbs but then try to prevent them from being sold elsewhere. What would they gain from such an agreement?And there's not really anything special about these bulbs. I mean they have more redundancy and run the leds at lower current, but there's nothing special you could claim ownership to. There's no new coating or led technology or anything, so even if such an agreement was made it doesn't seem like anything would prevent another manufacturer from making them.
From Clive's video description on youtube:
>> These lamps are currently only available in Dubai. The likelihood of them appearing elsewhere is limited by the fact that they are designed to last a long time, which isn't profitable for the manufacturers.
It's profitable for Philips to make them for Dubai because regulations mean there's no one selling a worse but cheaper version. If Philips sold the bulbs for $1 more in your local shop you'd buy the cheaper version because both say "last's forever", you can't tell the difference, and you've never even heard of tDubai bulbs ('you' being an average shopper).
If other countries created regulations around the efficiency level and how long the bulbs had to last then we'd likely end up with a similar bulb. We'd pay a little more per bulb, but save over the long term. As it is now there's more profit from multiple angles on making worse bulbs.
I love my incandescent bulbs. It is a threat to remove them. The heat they produce is amazing in the winter. I use a 100 watt bulb to keep me warm at my desk. Heat bodies not buildings.I've been practicing this since a child and I'm 36 now.
To heat yourself, check out: https://youtu.be/3gjvOOlHmsU
For actual good LED lamps (not the crap they push in USA) check out: https://youtu.be/klaJqofCsu4
TLDR most LED lamp are running over spec which cause them to fail and become a commodity rather than infra.
I had a rear projection DLP LED TV which ran its red LED over spec and it burned out at least 3 times as fast as the green and blue.
https://www.foxhop.net/samsung/HL-T5087SA/red-LED-failure
The heat is not always just a byproduct, sometimes you need or want the heat.
Compare this 100 watt bulb to a tiny space heater and you will see the difference in your electricity bill. Buy a "kill a watt" meter to start testing you appliances rather assuming incandescent is evil.
⬐ SchiendelmanYou also use your incandescent bulbs when it’s warm out. Stop wasting power.⬐ foxhopNice try, I'm an environmentalist. I replace the bulb with LED when it's warm out.
These have gotten some attention recently probably because of Big Clive's great video!
I think this one here appeared because it's been featured on hackaday recently[1], which got featured there because Youtube channel "bigclivedotcom" made a video about them[2], which blew through the roof because of some Youtube-algorithm-doodads? Compared to his recent other videos, this really stands out in terms of views. (Although I can really recommend the channel).Anyways, the main thing is that these lamps use more filament-strips than usual led bulb, thus allowing them to run cooler and last longer. Unfortunately, they are only available in Dubai (afaik).
[1]: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li...
Recent Big Clive video discussing this lamp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4.
⬐ robgoldingCame here to post this same link but you beat me to it! Big Clive's videos are brilliant—highly recommend his channel to anyone remotely interested in electricity/electronics.⬐ beervirus⬐ rjmunro... or interested in carbonating cheap wine, etc.⬐ DiabloD3... or electrocuting snacks and then eating them.⬐ g051051... or reveling in the mighty beard.See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25758652⬐ turbinerneiter> These lamps are currently only available in Dubai. The likelihood of them appearing elsewhere is limited by the fact that they are designed to last a long time, which isn't profitable for the manufacturers.Just incredibly sad.
⬐ smolderI can't figure out where the logic is in not selling these Dubai bulbs in other markets at all. Why not just sell the expensive-to-make bulbs at an equal or higher margin than standard ones? Are they protecting the bulb-replacement specialist industry by giving them something to do? Where are the competitive free market forces?I've been using LED lighting at home for a decade+ now. Some bulbs I bought back then still work. Many of the newer ones are failing fast, obviously struggling with heat in the fixtures they're in, which has been bothering me. The bits I like best are adhesive LED strips driven by a stand alone power supply with PWM dimmer in the living room. They're mounted in aluminum backed diffuser rails. I expect that stuff will last near as long as I do. They're under-driven and run cool, and the power supply seems high quality.
⬐ kyriakos⬐ lodiThese led strips sound interesting can you suggest some brands/models? I've had led strips but not with a diffuser.⬐ smolder⬐ type0The LED strips are pretty standard. The diffuser is a separate product. Search for LED aluminum channel and you'll find some. They don't do a very good job of diffusing (would love to see some that are better at it) but they do act as a heatsink.> Are they protecting the bulb-replacement specialist industry by giving them something to do?That's the eternal question: How many computer scientists does it take to change a lightbulb?
ǝnssᴉ ǝɹɐʍpɹɐɥ ɐ sᴉ ʇɐɥꓕ ǝuoN
⬐ LargoLasskhyfvSearch for Osram Professional / Parathom Retrofit Classic A & B. I use them exlusively since a few years.What would be interesting to me is how reliable the stated 1 Watt of those Phillips E14 Candlelights are, mine from Osram are rated at 2,5Watts. Otherwise looking very similar in specifications.
Isn't this already a "problem" with ordinary LED's though? For instance, I have the following first world problem: I bought a set of (newer, nicer) LED's to replace older bulbs as they burn out, but they've just been sitting in my closet for 4 years because not a single bulb has burned out since I moved in!⬐ destitude⬐ kpsThere are plenty of junk LED bulbs on Amazon for instance. I got some Amazon Basic LED bulbs and a couple of them didn't even last a year.⬐ pbhjpbhj⬐ smolderI'm going to guess you didn't send them back for free replacements? And, guess again that the reason is "it's not worth the hassle [ie cost is greater than my time is worth]".We should be punishing product manufacturers whose products fall in the bottom quartile of life expectancy - returns by Freepost (receiver pays the postage) and get £10 compensation + money back or replacement.
Perhaps then we could start addressing some of the planned obsolescence in low value goods.
IMHO, you should have moved the existing bulbs to the closet for if/when the new ones fail, so you can enjoy your upgrade. :)To answer your question, it really depends. If they run cool, are a good design, and aren't defective, they will last incredibly long. Often, one or more of those things isn't true.
⬐ kyriakosThat's exactly what I do, when I move I replace all light bulbs and keep the originals which I put back when I'm moving out.See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel> The Phoebus cartel existed to control the manufacture and sale of incandescent light bulbs. They appropriated market territories and fixed the useful life of such bulbs. … The cartel tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that lasted more than 1,000 hours.
⬐ idiot900Bulbs like this, even at a much higher price, would be great for high ceiling mounted fixtures where changing the bulb requires a ladder and probably moving furniture.⬐ llampx⬐ scotty79The most powerful of these is only 3W, which it says replaces a 60W incandescent. Nowhere near powerful enough to replace anything that actually uses a lot of power and would be high-mounted. Maybe if you have a chandelier full of 60W incandescent bulbs, which since this is Dubai we're talking about, is actually possible.⬐ andromeduckYeah this is my big gripe with LED bulbs - it's hard to find compact 200W equivalents.⬐ llampx⬐ idiot900The higher wattage units need good heatsinking, and I believe that is easier done with integrated units, where the "bulb" aka driver is not replaceable. I've also thought of making my own, with a strip of aluminum and mounting 1W/3W emitters to it myself. Easy enough to drive them at whatever wattage you want, and maintain good thermal properties.A specific use case would be recessed ceiling lights, which are not uncommon in this nominal wattage.⬐ llampxYes that could be. Most recessed lights I've seen recently are spotlights, although that could be a function of where I am looking.IMO, interior designers and light manufacturers need to work together to make attractive energy-efficient lighting solutions. For example, recessed halogen-based spotlights are a nightmare for LEDs - there's nowhere for the heat to go. Even if you get an LED bulb from aliexpress, it won't last long because of the lack of proper heatsinking. Meanwhile there's plenty of surface area that could be utilized for heatsinking if the fixture is designed for LEDs from the ground up.
I think there could be luxury market for them. They use a lot of more LEDs and electronics but there might be people that are willing to pay few times for more efficient LED that lasts longer and is gives more stable light when grid voltage fluctuates.Customer must just be easily able to tell apart better LEDs and they can just by looking how many LED filaments per watt they contain.
I think China can make plenty of those if they become fashionable.
⬐ destitude⬐ optimiz3When some of the first edison style LED bulbs came out by Philips (looked like bug lights since the bulb looked yellow when off) they cost $40 a bulb. I did purchase one and is still being used.⬐ timw4mail⬐ teekertEdison-style? As in the connection? I thought Edison-style bulbs had the strings of LED filaments.I'd pay double for a lamp with double the life span because it's half the waste and that is just the right thing to do. Maybe they can then also give some warranties on this (internal timer?) I have already had about 3 Philips leds that I'm positive never got to over ~100 hours. Not the Hue ones, they seem to be pretty good quality.⬐ scotty79⬐ turbinerneiterI think the price would be rather quadruple or quintuple for undetermined (multiple(?) decades average probably) lifetime with no or standard warranty and better energy efficiency.I would still gladly buy it if I was sure that higher prices actually pay for more undervolted LEDs and is not a marketing gimmick to "instill sense of quality".
> Customer must just be easily able to tell apart better LEDs and they can just by looking how many LED filaments per watt they contain.When I make buying decisions, I often struggle with exactly that: I have no way of telling what is "good" or "bad" quality, and I have to much experience with expensive stuff being repackaged cheap crap, so I end up buying cheap crap more often than I should.
One thing I really hate are discounts.
brand: this product is worth X brand, during some random days in the year: GUESS WHAT IT'S JUST X/2 TODAY YOLO me, always: you are ripping me off during the rest of the year
This is exactly an area where government efficiency standards could help push the market forward (similar to CA in autos).⬐ llampx⬐ Chris2048Exactly. Halogen and incandescent bulbs are allowed to be sold in Germany for decorative use, and what happens is that some people who can't imagine progress get their architects to put in multiple energy-sucking halogen lamps throughout their home. To hell with efficiency.If the trick is running the leds at a lower, more power and lifetime efficient, voltage - then can't existing lamps be modified?⬐ pbhjpbhj⬐ abridgettBigCliveDotCom does this, and mentions it in the linked YouTube video upthread.⬐ remlovMy question as well, as I am pretty sure there isn't any inert gas in the bulb, one could carefully cut the bulb in half (Nichrome Wire trick perhaps?) and modify/add LEDs to the assembly and swap out the required resistors, etc.This is why (more than anything) I wanted the UK to stay in the EU. The EU seems to be one of the few organisations with the clout and principle to actually make this sort of thing happen - to improve people's lives and raise standards.2 year guarantees being another example: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
Big Clive’s YouTube review of them: https://youtu.be/klaJqofCsu4
⬐ etrabrolineGreat video. Basically they have extra LEDs in them so each LED can run at lower power which is more efficient.
⬐ mtmailMaybe in the future we'll see regulation in other countries forcing manufacturers to phase out less efficient lamps in favor of these 1,2,5W lamps.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_ligh...
⬐ sand500Reminds me of the lightbulb cartel