HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Cant answer the question and my knowledge is only from 'one interested' but from how long (~20 years) it took to build the current EUV source and how complicated the alternatives look this is for sure no easy feat.

Can recommend [1] as the title say about the light source. Very interesting even for a non professional (and [2] as on high level overview of the machine and [3] as longer documentation inside ASML).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ge2RcvDlgw "The Extreme Engineering of ASML’s EUV Light Source"

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI "The Extreme Physics Pushing Moore’s Law to the Next Level"

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQu_TMgHO98 "ASML's Secret: An exclusive view from inside the global semiconductor giant"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIiqVrKDtLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

Two good introduction videos.

⬐ lukeholder

Has any consumer chip come to market with this tech?

⬐ selectodude

The Apple A14 is etched using EUV.

⬐ kube-system

TSMC and Samsung use them in production for some of their 7nm, and AFAIK, all of the 5nm. Apple M1, A14, and Samsung DRAM are now made with these machines.

- Posted from my Apple M1 made in an ASML EUV machine.

⬐ None

None

⬐ temptemptemp111

It isn't a law, geniuses.

⬐ chrispeel

video is from 2019

It talks about the use of 13.5 nm Extreme Ultraviolet light in chip manufacturing

Here’s a great YouTube video about the technology ASML is building: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI.

Worth mentioning is the insane and disruptive technology making TSMC's 5nm possible. ASML and it's suppliers have built a machine[1] that has a sci-fi feel to it. It took decades to get it all right, from the continous laser source to the projection optics for the extreme ultraviolet light[2]. This allowed photolithography to jump from 193nm light to 13.5nm, very close to x-rays. The CO2 laser powering the EUV light source is made by Trumpf[3].

Edit:More hands-on video from Engadget about EUV at Intels Oregon facility[4]

[1]https://www.asml.com/en/products/euv-lithography-systems/twi... [2]https://youtu.be/f0gMdGrVteI [3]https://www.trumpf.com/en_US/solutions/applications/euv-lith... [4]https://youtu.be/oIiqVrKDtLc

⬐ bch

That’s amazing - now I have questions.

They say “decades in the making” - when did it first become viable, and then how long to master the process and become confident enough to mass produce consumer goods from it? I’d love to see a timeline w milestones.

⬐ car

Apparently first EUV prototypes were shipped to TSMC for R&D in 2010(!).

ASML has a timeline of the company and technology development[1].

[1]https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/history

⬐ dmix

Thanks for the great links / resources. Those machines look insanely complicated. I can just imagine how they get shipped to Taiwan and elsewhere (they apparently cost $120M each in 2010 [1]).

A bit offtopic but I've always found it amusing that a form of lithography, of all things, is fundamentally powering our tech revolution for decades. Especially after a girl I knew learned lithography in an art class, watching her do it in a primitive form, which inspired me to read about it's history in art and professional uses (signage, etc).

That combined with vacuum tubes (which also rank high up there in the revolution thing) are the two things I one day wish to learn how they really work. Not just surface level nodding along.

[1] https://www.eetimes.com/euv-tool-costs-hit-120-million/

The entire world has their eggs in one basket - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. Say whatever about Intel, I am hoping that they get back on their feet in next few years with 5nm manufacturing.

Since when is competition and choice a bad thing? If you're a chip design firm and you have a 8-month backlog to get your masks made at TSMC, what do you do then? TSMC can be world's best fab but we need to address the SPOF condition that is so close to the political hot zone in the APEC region.

Intel should spin off its Fab division as a separate company, hire some top executives to rejuvinate the workforce, make it the coolest Fab company in the world to work for and leap ahead. Intel TMG's Sohail was the biggest borderline criminal executive that was forced out a couple of years ago and was responsible for the 10nm delays.

It is enormously difficult for any startup to get into this space - you need billions and years of expertise to start a Fab. Or may be YC folks can? I worked in the Fab but don't have a birds-eye view of what it takes for a startup to get into this space. It would be amazing to see startups trying to manufacture semiconductors... you know live up to the Silicon Valley's name. You could have billions of dollars of economy built on services - US, EU and most advanced economies are shifting towards services; but they all rely on semiconductors. Imagine something were to happen to that... It is a juicy problem. We don't need Uber/AirBnb unicorns out of SV, we need Fairchild of the modern world from SV.

Edit: To see what kind of a beast EUV litho is, this is a good short documentary on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

⬐ mrtksn

People root for anything-but-intel because competition is a good thing and intel had none for very long time.

I don't know where the notion of "Intel is about to die and TMSC will make us suffer due to monopoly" comes from but before having people cheer for Intel again they probably need some time to have their execs cure some disease in some poor part of the world, do a few AMAs on reddit, open-source something, donate to some cool projects in tandem with actually improving their products before regaining the goodwill of the people. Can take some clues from Bill gates and Microsoft.

The consumers are pissed. AMD's comeback is attracting a lot of fanfare because of people being sick of the not having an option beside "should I get i3, i5 or i7" for very long time.

⬐ PragmaticPulp

Tech enthusiasm and criticism has become extremely cyclical in the past decade. It’s easy to forget that we were all cheering for Facebook and the Zuckerberg success story before it became uncool to be pro-Facebook.

Intel is stumbling, but up until very recently they were still the fastest gaming CPUs available. That didn’t stop gamers from criticizing them endlessly and cheering their demise. Intel went from cool to uncool.

Give it a few years and they might be able to leverage the underdog position into a comeback story.

⬐ octoberfranklin

Dude, I was never cheering Facebook.

The most positive opinion I have ever had of it could be described as indifference.

⬐ dennisgorelik

> leverage the underdog position into a comeback story

The comback story will need Intel to become more productive with CPU manufacturing R&D. Is there any reason why after such prolonged decline Intel may have a comback?

⬐ formerly_proven

> It’s easy to forget that we were all cheering for Facebook and the Zuckerberg success story before it became uncool to be pro-Facebook.

This is emphatically untrue. There was always a significant minority in "Hacker" and privacy circles that were intensely sceptical of Facebook in specific and "social media" in general.

⬐ the8472

> I don't know where the notion of "Intel is about to die and TMSC will make us suffer due to monopoly" comes from

Semiconductor R&D costs have been going up, companies consolidating or went into niches. There are jokes about having to buy from The Semiconductor Company® in the future.

Intel is sitting on a lot of money, so they're not going to die soon. But they haven't been showing signs of improving the situation since 14nm was delayed in 2013. This saga didn't start with 10nm. Remember that the cadence used to be tick-tock every 18 months. We still can't get 10nm desktop chips. So there are some questions how they'll fare in the future.

⬐ qppo

> TMSC will make us suffer due to monopoly

The fears have less to do with TSMC the company and more the fact it's a pawn in the geopolitical chess game between the US (and her pacific allies) and China.

The issues with supply chains through Taiwan have little to do with whether gamers are buying their CPUs from AMD or Intel, but the fact that a critical piece of infrastructure in the Western economy is very precariously located, and in the event of war or political strife is not going to be able to be mobilized for domestic (or even friendly-allied) production.

⬐ mr_toad

It would have to be quite a long war where the military couldn’t rely on existing equipment and inventories of chips for a while. It’s not like most military equipment uses the latest CPUs anyway.

And if a war did drag on for years there would be opportunity to switch suppliers and manufacturers or build new infrastructure.

⬐ ClumsyPilot

Some industries take decades to establish, you don't have 5-year stock of CPUs and you will probably be left high and dry if the supply is cut off by a natural disaster or something.

Where do you even get people with the knowledge required to run the 5nm fabs, there night be none at all on thr continent.

⬐ rasz

Who said anything about any wars? There are rumors abound about TSMC infrastructure being booby-trapped due to national security concerns. As soon as China reaches 14-28nm and is able to sustain internal needs using home grown foundries an "accident" in TSMC facilities could put mainland in a position of silicon leader for at least half a decade.

⬐ eternauta3k

Why half a decade? They just have to buy new equipment. The know-how remains.

⬐ dodobirdlord

And moreover, is going to be instantly destroyed and unrepairable.

⬐ mrtksn

Sounds like US screw up to prevent a monopoly which is being broken by an outsider, now complaining that there are no western alternatives to the outsider.

Anyway, the machinery that TSMC is using is produced in Netherlands AFAIK. US should be fine, there's a lot of capital available to buy the machinery, recruit the talent and build the Fabs if it comes to TSMC not being reliable partner at some point.

⬐ eternauta3k

Critical technologies like optical proximity correction are fab proprietary

⬐ mrtksn

That's why your recruit the talent too.

⬐ fomine3

Even if TSMC is western comany, monopoly on bleeding edge process is bad for world. I wish no more fabs (TSMC, Samsung, Intel) drop out from the race.

⬐ typ

I agree with you. But I think it's a "can't-see-the-forest-for-the-tree symptom" that is possibly due to the typical HN demographics. It has been a decade or longer that the US relies on China manufacturing for industrial infrastructure that is as (or even more) critical as wafers. It doesn't help fix the problem by simply singling out semiconductors and keeping every other industry locked in China as-is.

⬐ octoberfranklin

All of those have second sources.

5nm silicon is, literally, the only thing that only one company can make.

⬐ jaynetics

I for one am very glad that TSMC amounts to a SPOF. I've been to Taiwan twice, and I'd much prefer to use an old chip a while longer than for this lovely, open nation to be invaded by a totalitarian regime. There is only a few things preventing an invasion, mainly that the US would like to keep this "unsinkable carrier", and TSMC. As Xinjiang shows, only international pain will do to make the world react to China's actions, and TSMC might be able to cause that.

⬐ wmf

Samsung is not that bad. They just announced a 5nm chip; it's not as good as TSMC but it's not as far behind as Intel either.

⬐ chorsestudios

Right, don't underestimate Samsung - they have top tier fabs and manufacture a lot of chips. If the world has all their eggs in the basket of one company that company is ASML.

⬐ T-A

Right, so our eggs are not all in one basket, but in two. One claimed as rebel territory by the CCP and one still technically at war with a nuclear-armed hermit kingdom.

⬐ dodobirdlord

Fortunately ASML is in the Netherlands.

⬐ m4rtink

So possibly a couple meters under even current sea level ? ;-)

(Continuing the sky-is-falling theme. :) )

⬐ T-A

I was obviously referring to Samsung.

As for ASML, if it were the key to Intel's woes, the article we are all commenting would not have been written.

⬐ Denvercoder9

> As for ASML, if it were the key to Intel's woes, the article we are all commenting would not have been written.

It not being the issue discussed in the current article doesn't mean it isn't a critical issue.

⬐ T-A

At risk of entering Rube Goldberg territory, I suppose we could speak of two baskets hanging by a common thread.

⬐ sundarurfriend

> one still technically at war with a nuclear-armed hermit kingdom.

If we're going down that route, every country in the world can be described in an equally alarmist manner.

⬐ octoberfranklin

Yeah but most of them are more than 300 miles from Xi Jinping.

⬐ pm90

This is an absurd amount of reductionism. The chances of actual military conflict in both the Korean Peninsula and Taiwan are objectively much higher than most other places around the world. Having both of the top tier semiconductor manufacturers reside in such a hotspot is absolutely a cause for concern.

⬐ regimeld

Completely agree. The world's supply of semiconductors is dependent, in some ways, on the benevolence of the CCP. TSMC is like Arakkis. We need to diversify the supply chain.

⬐ aaaxyz

Isn't TSMC building a fab in AZ? Anyway I'd say the "spice" in semiconductor production is rare earth elements, since the CCP controls most of their extraction (and has artificially lowered exports in the past)

⬐ calcifer

> Isn't TSMC building a fab in AZ?

Yes, but the planned chips are an older generation right now and they'll be even older when the fab actually starts production. TSMC would never move cutting edge production outside of Taiwan.

⬐ an_opabinia

It’s just such nincompoopery, people speculating about geopolitics. TSMC is owned by normal people who want to make money, if for some reason they aren’t able to trade, ownership will move out IP and put it on a USB key, and build elsewhere.

Just think about it rationally. If TSMC isn’t allowed to meet demand, well of course someone will be incentivized to move the IP elsewhere where you are permitted to meet demand. It would be such a colossal opportunity. Indeed shutting off TSMC would be great for other people interested in getting into chip manufacturing, in the same way that reducing competition in anything benefits producers.

The reason that doesn’t happen has nothing to do with geopolitics and everything to do with what every mainstream US politician has always been saying: subsidies, and the price of labor.

⬐ calcifer

This is a naive take on Taiwan's status and China's attitude towards it. The simple fact is TSMC being in Taiwan greatly incentivizes western powers to protect Taiwan from Chinese aggression. Everyone knows it, especially the Taiwanese government.

> Just think about it rationally.

Indeed.

⬐ octoberfranklin

No, they're saying they're building a fab in AZ.

Like Foxconn is (still!) saying they're building a fab in WI.

⬐ hn_throwaway_99

> Anyway I'd say the "spice" in semiconductor production is rare earth elements, since the CCP controls most of their extraction

That's really only because of other countries outsourcing to China and not supporting domestic mining. There is no shortage of rare earths in other countries.

⬐ hajile

That's very true. European countries "go green" by exporting their mining pollution to China. They can then blame China for all the pollution problems.

Brilliant really. Get political points for "lowering emissions", then double dip getting more points for "being hard on China" while at the same time not hugely affecting the economy, jobs, or ticking off industrialists.

⬐ ptx

TSMC is a Taiwanese company. The world can ensure the supply of its semiconductors by ensuring Taiwan has access to weapons and guarantees of military assistance in case the CCP's benevolence wavers.

⬐ kelnos

If China decides to take Taiwan by force, there is very little the rest of the world can do to stop them.

⬐ AgentOrange1234

Will do? Sure. But can do? Sanctions, war, ...

⬐ bgorman

Nazi Germany attempted to take tiny Malta from the Britsh for two years and failed.

The Japanese held many untenable defensive positions in the Pacific for months.

Unless China is willing to nuke Taiwan, (what would be the point?) a military offensive to take over Taiwan would be extremely unlikely to succeed within a few months - and assuming the US/Australia/UK/Japan/South Korea provide support - almost impossible.

Doing any kind of amphibious landing offensive is incredibly costly and difficult.

China's best hope would be that Joe Biden is under CCP control.

⬐ octoberfranklin

None of those other islands were even remotely close to the strategic value of Taiwan.

⬐ octoberfranklin

And, uh, based on the diplomatic recognition situation it's pretty clear that Teh World has considered your suggestion and very explicitly rejected it.

⬐ tuatoru

China claims that Taiwan is a renegade province.

When (not if) China acts on that, there will be trouble.

China has strong infowar capability and is developing it quickly. Old-fashioned spy-vs-spy type warfare works, too, but is less visible.

⬐ ashtonkem

> Since when is competition and choice a bad thing?

Who is saying this? There is competition, and Intel is starting to lose.

> If you're a chip design firm and you have a 8-month backlog to get your masks made at TSMC, what do you do then?

Wait 8 months. This is a lot better than getting a "Lol, we don't do custom masks" from Intel.

> Intel should spin off its Fab division as a separate company, hire some top executives to rejuvinate the workforce, make it the coolest Fab company in the world to work for and leap ahead.

Yes, they absolutely should do that. The only question is if they have the guts to do it.

⬐ boznz

China Invading Taiwan would be the IT worlds covid moment.

⬐ kyting

Tick-Tock-Tick-Tock-Tock-Tock-Tock-Tock ....

⬐ hapless

Fabrication is where Intel is falling down.

They have fresh new chip designs that would be perfectly adequate, but they are still hobbled by 14nm. They have now released three? four? iterations of x86 design on the same 14 nm process, because 10nm is that troubled

If you spun off the fabrication, as AMD did, you would have a much smaller, but more-competitive fabless business, and the fabricator would implode. (Which is pretty much what happened to Global Foundries, AMD's former fabrication house)

In any case, much of the value for shareholders would be eradicated. Intel has historically done very well as a vertically integrated business. They would like to remain vertically integrated.

We may see Intel resort to outside fabrication -- executives have already mentioned it in the business press -- but I very much doubt we will see them discard their internal fabrication capabilities.

⬐ spronkey

One of the questions I have is just how much of their relatively recently-gained process optimisation knowledge of e.g. 14+++ will be transferrable to future node shrinks, and, will this give them an IP edge over TSMC if they can get back on track with node shrinking?

⬐ systemvoltage

I am afraid, they're going to be using US gov as their wheelchair to survive a few more decades: https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-wins-us-government-adv...

⬐ vslira

The Boeing of semiconductors

⬐ PostOnce

War must always be considered, if you want to keep existing as a nation.

People have been repeating "Si vis pacem, para bellum" for thousands of years for a reason.

Semiconductors and aerospace are important to war efforts, and having domestic manufacturing capability is a big deal if you have serious, wealthy, technically advanced adversaries.

Reality is complicated and many-faceted, and there are a number of reasons to keep Intel alive as far as the govt goes: war, staving off brain-drain, keeping a lot of jobs, etc.

⬐ vagrantJin

Your praise of war comes off quite naive. Perhaps you figure "war" or violence as viable solutions despite being a much more connected world where diplomacy and fairness can be judges more democratically. Such talk of war is neccesary is an utterance of someone born on the right side of the fence and quite clearly no clue as what they are talking about.

⬐ deeviant

Take this from an extremely liberal and war-abhorring person: If your argument is that a country should not take steps to secure it's supply chains in the event of a war because <morals or something>, then you are the naive one.

⬐ vagrantJin

That's why diplomacy works for the vast majority of countries. War is expensive and the costs are always more than anyone ,regardless of how sophisticated they believe themselves, could possibly imagine.

Take that from someone who lost a large chunk of his family currently in an African - shithole as the US president aptly put it- country. I'm on HN because this is the most peaceful time in recent memory. Do me the favour, at the very least, to put a handle on your dillusions grandeur. In our connected world diplomacy should be the only way to resolve national conflicts.

⬐ afiori

Sure, but countries also need not to be codependent for diplomacy to succeed. Diplomacy and trade are the basis of an international peace that might last centuries, but to work properly it is necessary that countries strive to also be potentially independent otherwise you get global crisis and situations where military threats are necessary to force diplomatic relationships.

⬐ macintux

Ask Ukraine about the practicality of disregarding defense as a necessary evil.

It’s hardly naive to assume that, since there has always been conflict, that conflict will continue for the foreseeable future.

⬐ raziel2701

So it's gonna be another too big to fail thing again.

⬐ Spivak

Less too big to fail, more a national security interest in ensuring the US can make chips during a hypothetical conflict.

Great if you’re the company the gov’t blesses for this purpose (like Microsoft) but not so great for their competitors.

⬐ emodendroket

I'd probably be nervous about TSMC opening a fab in AZ then

⬐ None

None

⬐ octoberfranklin

That fab will never open.

Just like Foxconn's plant in Wisconsin.

It'll just keep getting pushed back, and pushed back. Its job is to keep the politicians happy (or at least not angry), and it doesn't need to be built in order to serve that purpose.

That fab will never, ever, ever run a single wafer.

⬐ johncalvinyoung

I suspect it very much will exist, but only once it's a node or two behind. It'll never be bleeding edge.

⬐ emodendroket

I think in this case it's a little different because of the milsec angle and Taiwan's geopolitical role in "great power conflict" with China.

⬐ dodobirdlord

In this case it’s a legitimate national security subsidy. Even if it’s perpetually a few nodes behind, the US military needs a high-tech fab company headquartered in America, staffed mostly with Americans, that does at least some of its manufacturing in the geographic United States.

⬐ hajile

That shouldn't be surprising.

The Military Industrial Complex is a huge beast. Almost all the big tech companies started before 1970 or so were funded by DoD research money. The only reason silicon valley is where it is lies in DoD radar research constraints. Computer tech started as stuff like solid state transistors to improve radio efficiency and size.

Since the MIC is a good ol' boys club with the tax dollars to pick winners and losers, of course they'll help their friends first "for the good of the country".

I'd also like to note my displeasure that my tax dollars pay must of the research bill, but the various companies walk away with the patents, copyrights, and profits. There's no reason for someone else to get rich off my investment.

Want to solve the national debt? Require royalties for government investment.

Each additional step requires solving a lot of new engineering problems and usually some new physics too, and it's not a linear process: many techniques are proposed that become cost effective only when previous techniques hit their size limits, and then a lot of research is done and most techniques are never gotten to work at scale and just a few pan out and become the next process.

This is a great talk on the history of chip processes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGFhc8R_uO4

This is about some of the challenges that had to be solved for a current modern process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

This was also a cool video I saw recently about lithography with plasma lasers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI around 7:14 in particular

I don't understand callous contempful comments against Intel's manufacturing capabilities. There are incredible people making things possible fomr both sides in one of the most advanced manufacturing processes in the world. I've worked inside a fab and I can tell you that the industry is much more appreciative of each other's competitors than the outside fanboys who are largely pissed off at the executive decisions (lawsuits , etc).

This article is about TSMC's technical achievements and your comment has not added anything to the discussion, time and again I see this rooting for "underdog" behavior all too the same (just flipped the sides) from 2006. I wrote about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22515546

If you'd like to know what goes into shriking a process node from lithography standpoint, I implore you to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

and be in complete utter awe... Tell me if they are "Sitting on their asses"?

⬐ anon102010

Reading bs release after bs release from intel about their 10nm “successes” makes you tired of their stuff. The number of times they denied problems etc

⬐ yason

I don't understand callous contempful comments against Intel's manufacturing capabilities. There are incredible people making things possible fomr both sides in one of the most advanced manufacturing processes in the world. I've worked inside a fab and I can tell you that the industry is much more appreciative of each other's competitors than the outside fanboys

Where did you read contemptful? The OP was merely stating a fact that Intel has lost the manufacturing race big time which is hard to refute given TSMC's progress. Sitting on their asses is just a illustrative way of saying that.

It does not mean Intel people were stupid or they didn't appreciate their competing colleagues or that Intel would now be worthless. If anything it just makes more sense for a chip company to focus their efforts on designing chips and outsource manufacturing which basically is a separate business anyway -- unless they happen to have an edge also in that which Intel did have earlier.

⬐ pdimitar

I think you might be projecting because IMO everyone around here in HN knows that the engineers are doing a really good job -- but management gets in the way, all too often.

So let's not conflate excellent and talented engineers with greedy shady executives whose big PR move was to publish detailed benchmarks on the last-gen AMD literally days before the current-gen AMD dropped.

⬐ Valmar

Oh, please ~ Intel fucked up their 10nm process pretty hard, and they kept trying to fix it for years. They also had to keep pushing their roadmap back again and again for 10nm.

This is entirely due to Intel's awful management getting in the way. Intel's engineers might be clever, but with shitty management, that can all go to waste.

Intel's management have been sitting on their arses, more or less, when you consider the fact that they've really been dragging their feet in terms of progress.

AMD has made more progress in 3 years than Intel has made in 10...

Intel simply got too comfortable with their monopoly.

⬐ TomVDB

I know that Intel has major issues with 10nm, but I don’t know exactly what went wrong.

Can you educate me?

I’m particularly interested in how management sabotaged the ability to get 10nm to work.

⬐ pheme1

> I can tell you that the industry is much more appreciative of each other's competitors

Totally agree, back in 2012 Intel, TSMC, Samsung pool together roughly 5 billions of investment [1] in ASML to manufacture the EUV machines needed to manufacture 5nm today.

[1] https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/samsung-joins-as...

I think the culture is improving despite of cashing it out in the 90's and 2000's during the Ballmer / Jack Welsch era. Semiconductor industry hasn't done a good job of cultivating a good, positive company culture and making it less regimented. We need to make it cool to work in a semiconductor company. I can assure you that there are so many incredible challenges that exist - with good definition/funding to tackle them from materials to marketing (direly needs to revamped). Imagine running a portion of the world's most advanced manufacturing processes. Ultra high volume (thousands of wafer starts per week), mind you.

Perhaps videos such as these are shining a positive light on the entire semiconductor goodwill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

⬐ minipci1321

> We need to make it cool to work in a semiconductor company.

I am not optimistic. "Semiconductor company" ==> high capitalization (expensive processes) ==> fertile ground for lawsuits and attacks.

As long as a slightest mistake has a potential to turn into multi-million-loss lawsuits, it will never be cool. Is it easy to be cool walking a tightrope between two skyscrapers? Not for many I'd guess.

BTW it is the same for non-semi companies (like OEMs), except that volumes of a given single product are generally lower, so mistakes are more bounded.

⬐ aidos

Wow. Those machines are something else altogether. I watched a chip making clip a while back and I recall that they talked about having to make strange patterns in the stencils (not sure what they’re called) to work around the way the light twists when it actually hits the die. I’ve probably got most of that wrong but is that still a thing with the addition of the water layer?

⬐ saganus

Sounds like this video: Indistinguishable from magic: Manufacturing modern computer chips

https://youtu.be/NGFhc8R_uO4

Just amazing. I wish a newer video explaining more recent technologies was available.

⬐ spectramax

Yeah, they calculate the transfer function of the pattern and then pattern the mask to achieve the end result printed on the silicon substrate. With EUV lithography, it substantially reduced this pattern complexity.

Jim talks about it at this mark in this presentation: https://youtu.be/Qnl7--MvNAM?t=784

⬐ voxadam

> Perhaps videos such as these are shining a positive light on the entire semiconductor goodwill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

That's a brilliantly fascinating video. Thanks for the link.

⬐ oarsinsync

> We need to make it cool to work in a semiconductor company.

I'm not sure I agree. If by 'cool' you mean along the lines of receiving respect and admiration from others because, while they don't really understand the actual specifics of what you do, they have a general idea and it's celebrated widely, then I don't think we want that happening in semi space.

It looks to me that it's happened already in software development, and I don't think the end result of that is net-positive.

I think that when people are passionate about what they do, and do it because they're passionate about it, the end results tend to be better than if they're doing it because other people will give them recognition.

I'm not saying this is something that happens all the time, and you can argue that I'm being elitest, snobby, or annoyed that the 'cool kids' have come into my playground and are playing with my toys, all of which would be valid positions to take. I do think that with all communities, they're very different when they have smaller appeal to when they have wider appeal.

Niche communities are not without their problems (and the toxicity that can happen in them cannot be understated), but I personally prefer them, and believe the output is generally of a higher quality, than communities with wider appeal.

⬐ spectramax

I know what you mean - I think some of the toxicity and heavy handed management style can certainly improve.

This is a great watch about how EUV works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI

⬐ diegoperini

Watched it, thanks a lot!

Seeker released a very insightful feature about the ASML Extreme UV / soft X-ray (13.5 nanometers) photolithography system that is being referred to in the article.

http://youtu.be/f0gMdGrVteI

⬐ guiambros

Pretty interesting review of microprocessor manufacturing, and the tech and machines that produce them.

I wonder how much of this is a standard procedure for any fab, versus something that ASML really has an edge on.