HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Apple seem to love to claim liquid damage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2r-g8EaTfY

He has more videos about it.

Apparently they trigger very easily with humidity.

Everyone should be required to watch Louis Rossmann's videos before buying a MacBook. Apple has probably scammed people out of hundreds of millions of dollars just by using fake excuses like "water damage" to avoid fixing things under warranty.

For example, a computer Apple said had "been in a bathtub" when it was really just a manufacturing defect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2r-g8EaTfY

FWIW, my experience with Dell has been the complete opposite. I complained about a couple issues with an Alienware laptop (processor whine, low battery life) and they had a tech at my house the next day with replacement parts. Probably the best service I've ever gotten on any type of product.

⬐ avgDev

It baffles me that people pay so much for an apple product but then have to go somewhere to get it serviced. I bought a Dell XPS, my keyboard was having issues, next day someone came out with a new keyboard and installed it for me at my house. Very little downtime.

⬐ bluedino

Kind of like Tesla owners.

⬐ GuB-42

Dell service is great for professionals.

But as a consumer, chances are that you won't be home when the repair technician arrive, because it happens during work hours and you are at work. It means that going to the Apple store may be the easier option.

⬐ eitland

Agree, have got good service from Dell.

Had lots of trouble with Dell hardware - but excellent support in most cases.

(I think 25% of our Dell motherboards broke in the spring of 2006 because of a batch of bad capacitors, and I think I heard rumours that more broke after I left that place, but service was always great until recently, and I'm now so far away from hardware I don't know if it is Dells fault or the sysadmins fault in a recent case I think of.)

⬐ darkpuma

> I think 25% of our Dell motherboards broke in the spring of 2006 because of a batch of bad capacitors

The capacitor plague. Pretty much everybody in the industry was hit by that to at least some extent:

> "Major vendors of motherboards such as Abit,[9] IBM,[1] Dell,[10] Apple, HP, and Intel[11] were affected by capacitors with faulty electrolytes. In 2005, Dell spent some US$420 million replacing motherboards outright and on the logistics of determining whether a system was in need of replacement.[12][13] Many other equipment manufacturers unknowingly assembled and sold boards with faulty capacitors, and as a result the effect of the capacitor plague could be seen in all kinds of devices worldwide. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague#Prevalence

⬐ mathattack

I had awful experiences with Dell in their “Dude you got a...” phase. It pains me that I have to use them at work just because they’re the low cost producer. I assume I’ve lost 2-3x the savings waiting for my laptop to get fixed.

⬐ darkpuma

M8 the "dude dell" phase ended back in 2003; there will soon be people working in this industry that were born after it ended. That is a long time ago. Since that time, Dell has been taken private, then public again. That advertising campaign ended years before the powerbook and ibook were discontinued, before the macbook brand was created, and before Apple switched architectures to intel x86 processors.

⬐ mathattack

Yes, make me feel old. :-)

This goes to show how long consumers hold grudges when brands let them down. And those consumers eventually Jin corporate purchasing departments.

⬐ oflannabhra

I just don’t like Rossman. I’m sure there are solid technical criticisms that he makes, and I personally agree that Apple is too draconian re: repairability (both in design and policy). However, I absolutely cannot trust someone who has such a financial incentive, or as deep a history of twisting facts to make Apple look bad.

Beyond that, there is something entitled about earning your entire income repairing another company’s devices while also demanding they make proprietary parts and knowledge available to you.

I wish there were a critic of Apple’s repair policies that had less of an agenda than Rossman.

⬐ keanzu

If Apple provided a superior or even comparable service, Rossman would be out of business tomorrow. No-one wants to seek third party repair, they are driven to it.

⬐ groovybits

> deep a history of twisting facts to make Apple look bad.

Can you provide examples?

⬐ oflannabhra

1. In 2016, Rossman claimed that Apple was filing suit against him, and was seeking to shut down his YouTube channel. In actuality, one of his videos had shown a schematic, that Rossman illegally obtained, and Apple requested that the schematic be removed from the video. [0]

2. In 2016, Rossman claimed that Apple had a 4 Gigabyte memory chip buffer on their webcams. He speculates that this is due to a nefarious intent on Apple's part. In actuality, it is a 4 Gigabit (512 MB) chip that acts as a buffer. [1]

3. In 2018, Rossman claimed that Apple had contacted Customs and Border Protection to have his import shipment of Apple batteries seized. He claimed that they were genuine OEM batteries, maybe scavenged from old devices. [2] In actuality, the devices really were counterfeit. Rossman had contracted an OEM manufacturer to build batteries to Apple's original spec, which bore Apple's logo, most likely without Apple's knowledge. [3]

[0] - https://www.gamerevolution.com/features/12677-free-speech-un...

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw3-j_RaX74

[2] - https://youtu.be/AVL65qwBGnw

[3] - https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...

⬐ Someone1234

No.1 you essentially admit, and cite, that what he claimed was accurate (that Apple threatened to sue/get his channel shut down) but you feel it was his fault.

No.2 dude messed up. No disagreement there. But you are spinning his confusion into: "due to a nefarious intent on Apple's part." That wasn't the tone of the video at all.

No.3 you say, and cite, that what he claimed was true (that a shipment of Apple compatible batteries he had imported was seized). In the original video he said quite clearly they weren't OEM because Apple no longer supplies these "vintage" batteries to even authorized repair centers. Here's the YT transcript (as is):

> the Apple store and I say I would like to buy this battery can i buy this battery please they say no if I become an Apple authorized service provider and I wish to obtain parts to a machine that has been considered vintage Apple will say no if I talk to somebody in China who says hey these are not those knockoff batteries where we take you know where we just like put apple logos on a bunch of crappy cells and send it to you these are the good batteries these are the batteries that are responsible for us being 4.9 out of five

But you said: "He claimed that they were genuine OEM batteries" the transcript above from the video you linked paints a very different picture.

Your original claim was:

> deep a history of twisting facts to make Apple look bad.

But you haven't made that case here.

Your position on the guy feels a little "cart before the horse." You dislike what the guy believes/stands for/his criticism, and then went out looking for reasons to justify that belief.

Your post essentially implies he's a criminal for using "stolen" schematics to repair customer's own equipment and making compatible batteries (which, I'll fully admit, shouldn't have had the Apple logo on them: not cool).

⬐ bubblethink

>he's a criminal for using "stolen" schematics to repair customer's own equipment and making compatible batteries

Sounds a lot like Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

⬐ wetpaws

Life imitates art

⬐ oflannabhra

I don't really know if you read anything that I linked. I think a clear pattern of "twisting facts" emerges when you look at Rossmann's original claims, and then see how those claims are walked back or "clarified" by further statements.

1. Rossmann claims that Apple is suing him, that his entire channel is going to be shut down, and that his business might disappear. Later, Rossmann clarifies that Apple just wanted him to take down, or edit out a single video that showed their IP.

3. Rossman claims that Apple contacted CBP to have his shipment of batteries seized in retaliation for a story he did with the CBC. Rossman states they are "good" batteries, that they could be refurbished or scavenged from old machines. He claims that they are not counterfeit. Later, Rossman admits that they are not refurbished or scavenged, but are newly manufactured, but not authorized by Apple, even though they bear Apple's logo. That is literally a counterfeit.

I'm not trying to cast Rossmann in a bad light, I was asked to provide examples of how Rossmann twists facts to make Apple seem more nefarious than they are. That list is why I take everything Rossmann says with a large grain of salt.

It is not the case that one side is right, and the other is wrong. I am not attempting to make the case that Apple should be uncriticized.

⬐ Someone1234

> I don't really know if you read anything that I linked.

I read what you linked. Your links don't support your claims.

> I think a clear pattern of "twisting facts" emerges when you look at Rossmann's original claims, and then see how those claims are walked back or "clarified" by further statements.

You haven't given an example of that. In examples you did give you mischaracterized his original statements several times. You can still watch the original videos as you linked as evidence of that (and or read the transcripts, like the excerpt I provided above).

> 1. Rossmann claims that Apple is suing him, that his entire channel is going to be shut down, and that his business might disappear. Later, Rossmann clarifies that Apple just wanted him to take down, or edit out a single video that showed their IP.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Apple made a threat (i.e. lawsuit, take-down on his channel) and then "settled" for him just removing certain content they found objectionable.

It is great that Apple's legal threats didn't come to full fruition, but they existed. This just isn't a strong example of what you're claiming, there was nothing mislead about saying an actual legal threat with actual legal consequences was received relating to his work with "right to repair."

> Later, Rossman admits that they are not refurbished or scavenged, but are newly manufactured, but not authorized by Apple, even though they bear Apple's logo.

He said that in the original video about the incident you yourself linked. I provided the transcript above.

⬐ plttn

Honestly, I just prefer the days when he talked through repairing a computer, and wasn't standing on a soapbox while he did it.

It was really relaxing and interesting to watch, but now that he's complaining about Apple half the time, it's significantly less enjoyable for me to watch.

⬐ MiroF

Amazing how negative a comment re: Rossman this is despite including not a single example

⬐ turk73

I don't completely understand why you disklike Rossman. I think he's an archetype for a "tell it like it is" New Yorker (like me). Maybe I have a soft spot for people like him, but they're superior to the more common "asshole NYer" that have now ranged far and wide and who take advantage of people as mercilessly as possible.

Rossman has it right. You're paying thousands of dollars for what amounts to an utter POS laptop. The earlier models were technical marvels and then Apple bean counters took over. But Apple needs to get on the same page with all the professionals who use their products and rely on them to make a living. How could they lose touch so badly?

⬐ ScottFree

> I think he's an archetype for a "tell it like it is" New Yorker (like me).

> they're superior to the more common "asshole NYer"

West Coasters don't see the distinction. California culture (and many other cultures, I'm sure) believes that making people feel bad is the ultimate social sin and should be avoided at all costs. In their eyes, "telling it like it is" makes you an asshole.

⬐ Someone1234

> Beyond that, there is something entitled about earning your entire income repairing another company’s devices while also demanding they make proprietary parts and knowledge available to you.

Apple won't let third parties produce Apple compatible parts (or sell parts sold to Apple also to non-Apple repair centers). Even if Apple just got out of the way, and offered no help/supply chain, it would be a stark improvement.

But instead they've been using hardware DRM to effectively make third party repairs impossible. If you replace a part with an identical part, you need Apple's software to authorize the change otherwise it won't boot.

⬐ oflannabhra

Yep, and I totally agree that such behavior is draconian, and I disagree with Apple's stance. That doesn't change the fact that I also find Rossman entitled.

⬐ benologist

Apple are actively fighting to prevent third parties being able to lawfully repair their devices.

https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/30/apple-right-to-repair-c...

⬐ bluedino

I'd be interested in him doing a teardown of a Dell/HP/whatever brand PC laptop, and pointing out the cost cutting and poor workmanship he finds

⬐ chrischen

My personal experience also contradicts this. Not only have I repaired the butterfly keyboard at least once on each of the new macs (every new spec bump so far) that had the new keyboards, but they almost always replace the logic board or even battery for free.

⬐ cassianoleal

Funny how personal anecdotes go. Let me tell you mine with Apple.

A few months ago I spilled about 300ml of water on top of my MacBook Pro. It's one of the newer models with the touchbar and the terrible butterfly keyboard (otherwise it's a fantastic machine though). The spillage happened just as I was about to finish work for the day. There was a lot of water there on top of the keyboard. It took me 5 or 6 large napkins to dry it out, even after having drained it first by leaning it sideways. I closed the laptop, put it on its case and went home for the day.

Next morning I took it off the case at work and switched it on, just to find the display behaving oddly (weird colours and artefacts). After a few minutes, the display froze and I believe the whole computer did too. I force-rebooted it and the same thing happened, only this time a lot quicker. After a third time I decided to keep it shut down and head back home to get my backup computer.

I made an appointment at the Apple store and took it in. I described what happened precisely, didn't leave a single detail out. They took it in, found zero water damage but acknowledged the problems. I was told it could take up to 10 days as I use a US keyboard (this happened in London) and they might not have one in stock.

About 4 days later I got a call to pick it up. They had replaced the logic board and the display and cleaned up the keyboard, all free of charge. I do have Apple Care on it but if I recall correctly this was done under warranty and would have happened regardless.

⬐ opencl

They go very strictly by the water indicator stickers.

You blatantly admit that you spilled water on your laptop but none of the stickers changed color because that's not where the water landed? Congratulations, you're still in warranty.

One of the stickers got triggered by using the machine in a humid environment and your machine fails for a completely unrelated reason? Too bad, all repair will be refused unless you pay for a new logic board.

⬐ FireBeyond

Dell can do the same. Or better. I've had a repair guy show up at my house at 9am on a Sunday morning to take care of a motherboard issue.

I also like Canon Professional Services. Annual fee but free maintenance on up to 10 camera bodies and lenses, 30% discount on any actual repair work, with free shipping both ways, and will begin NBD, _and_ they will overnight you a replacement to use while they repair it).

⬐ radcon

Based on the terms of their warranty, your experience is an exception. Even after paying $299 for AppleCare+, you should've had to pay an additional $299 for the repair. Anyone who bases a purchase decision on this type of anecdote is just asking to get screwed.

On the other hand, the service I mentioned from Dell is part of their standard warranty, included with every new (and refurbished) computer.

⬐ lal

I had a 2017 mbp, two months in, the left hook thing on the J keycap broke. It still stayed on for the most part so I was fine. The minus key was next, but both hooks broke so it just loosely flapped and fell off if the laptop was tipped. I 2-sided-taped under and it was mushy but worked. About 4 months in, the spacebar started sending double inputs like 10% of the time. I learned to watch out for it.

About a year in left shift literally just stops working over the course of about a half hour. The button under the keycap is apparently just done. I use karabiner to remap (only when karabiner is running) left ctrl to left shift and caps lock to left ctrl (just using capslock as shift is painful). One OS update later I get an error message that the keyboard is unrecognized. When it finishes rebooting the remapping is now permanent for some reason and unalterable (I don't have any reason to want to though because it's the only way I can write capital letters without right shift).

A year and a half in, it's working one night, then the next morning I open it and it's showing rainbowy artifacts everywhere that only appear when the screen is past like a quarter way open.

I finally go to an Apple store, where they take it and basically say "yeah all of that is stuff that happens, we'll check what it is and let you know". I get notified that it will be 700$ to replace the display module which they say is at fault.

I just took it back and paid 50$ for the diagnostics and bought an XPS13. Life is good. My mbp works if attached to an external monitor or projector.

⬐ baybal2

There is some point in the claim, but still it feels bs.

You can popcorn a chip during reflow, some components are extremely moisture sensitive so they must be soldered the sane day they were removed from package, but you can't get popcorn from mechanical repair or a few touch ups with a soldering iron.

So, a screwup on Apple's contract manufacturer side is much more likely.

⬐ slededit

> you can't get popcorn from mechanical repair or a few touch ups with a soldering iron.

Yes you can, I've done it. Moisture sensitivity is about heat (and the resulting steam expansion). It doesn't matter whether its from the factory's re-flow oven or your hot air rework station.

⬐ baybal2

Hot air station is not a 20w soldering iron in steady hands

⬐ slededit

How you will solder a thousand ball BGA part as in the video with a soldering iron?

Almost all surface mount is designed for hot air. You can touch up an MLCC with an iron but you are very likely to crack it with uneven heat.

⬐ baybal2

Yes, but certainly not every repair requires replacement of a bga part. The most common are screen, buttons, usb connector, aside from the port, all other are purely mechanical.

⬐ slededit

Apple doesn't really use through hole parts - the connectors are SMT. I can't see any high volume repair shop using a soldering iron on SMT parts when hot air is so much easier and faster. A hobbyist might, but only because they don't have the hot air rework tools.

⬐ nodesocket

How can we prove this is in-fact what Apple said? Where is the documentation? I guess I am just cynical, after seeing what people will do for clicks/views/attention.

⬐ sidcool

That's a fair point. We need cynicism in today's world. Though not too much.

⬐ simion314

>How can we prove this is in-fact what Apple said? Where is the documentation? I If video counts (hidden camera) there is such a video on the same youtube channel.

⬐ uncle_phil

But what are you going to do about it? It's a two party system. You have to vote for one of them.

⬐ awakeasleep

These videos -specifically the ones calling Apple out for water damage- are some sort of weird internet phenomenon.

Apple's stated and written policy is "we replace everything if we detect water damage, no negotiation". Thats the real story, and thats what we should debate. There is nothing mysterious about this, it's just a business decision that sometimes makes getting your computer repaired at the genius bar impractical.

And that is an important point to debate, especially with the upcoming software check of all replacement parts. Will Apple allow Grossman to access that tool? Or will they be shutting him down?

Instead of having that debate, it seems like we're trying to foment some sort of outrage cycle about fraudulent repairs, when every example of these "fraudulent" repairs is just a genius bar employee repeating some variation of their policy. "If your liquid contact indicators have changed, we must replace every part that got wet"

Is Grossman himself behind this? Because I believe misrepresenting that policy, misguided as it may be, as 'fraudulent' is probably going to hurt the battle more than it helps. And even if it is helpful in the end, it is dishonest.

⬐ bjoli

The liquid contact indicators change in high humidity as well, which I suspect is pretty often the case when they claim liquid damage.

Their repair policy is more or less "let's just rip everything out and let the customer pay" which is not only not very environmental, it is also a shot policy for such an expensive product.

If they told her "the reason it won't boot is liquid damage" it is pretty much fradulent. If they told her "your CPU is popped, which could be caused by water damage" it is OK.

However, since those indicators are the only thing they check and the people at the stores are on average about as technical as my mom, you will probably never get anything else then apple textbook information.

⬐ noncoml

The debate is whether it’s OK to translate a “tripped LCI” to “water damage”.

If an accelerometer says that a car has been in a violent crash, but there is no observable external damage, is it ok to refuse to repair a broken engine that is under warranty?

⬐ iforgotpassword

Where exactly is the water damage? Iirc, thoes detectors turn red when they get wet, but in that video every single one I can spot on the main board is not red. Do they use different ones nowadays?

⬐ Buge

I thought the issue would have something to do with the warranty. Like apple might have a policy that says we cover manufacturing problems within some time period, but we don't cover water damage. In that case a correct determination of whether something is water damage or not is critical.

⬐ mg4so7

Rossmann.

⬐ addicted

The problem is that Apple simultaneously is using every means possible to prevent 3rd party repair.

Sure, if Apple wanted to declare everything that has the water sensors triggered as water damage and require a full replacement, even though their sensors get triggered by humidity, fine. As long as there are opportunities for customers to take it to an authorized Apple repairer or a 3rd party repairer to consider alternatives.

However, authorized apple repairers have to follow the same policy, and Apple is doing everything within its power to prevent unauthorized reparers from accessing schematics and parts, including using customs and copyright laws to prosecute them.