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The media absolutely pushes an agenda, they are paid to do so. Not many would question that. The difference is, reporting on these things is their job and Amazon is treating their employees like trash. You have to be purposefully ignorant to miss this stuff. It's everywhere! Last Week Tonight broke it down pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9m7d07k22A. The fact you think your anecdotal evidence means anything is puzzling though.

⬐ iNate2000

I seem to remember that "Last Week Tonight" said that Amazon wasn't as bad, it was the outsourcing companies that were far worse.

⬐ TheBranca18

You are remembering correctly. But it also pointed out that Amazon sets the standard in the industry and just because they're not the worst doesn't mean they shouldn't get better.

⬐ 40four

Last Week Tonight isn't real news, it's comedy. Not to mention it's heavily biased.

Also, it's not really that funny :p

⬐ TheBranca18

So I post a video in response to someone using anecdotal evidence as a counterpoint to Amazon treating their workers poorly. Included in the video are testimonials from actual Amazon workers and your response is to dismiss the video because it's not real news, not funny and heavily biased. None of the things you listed have anything to do with the evidence presented.

And now I see in your other response in this topic you express anecdotal evidence as well. It's simply a poor way to counterpoint something. It really is.

⬐ 40four

Honestly, I was just trying to be silly ;) But you don't really expect us to watch your 20 min video do you?

Obviously if folks have bad working conditions, I want them them to improve. But how are 'anecdotes' from people I personally know who work in Amazon FC's any different than 'testimonials' from people on TV. I know at least 2 people who work or have worked in these FC's and they never complained. They worked hard & collected their paychecks.

That doesn't mean this is everyone's experience, I'm sure many have been treated poorly. But it goes both ways, we can't assume because some were treated poorly that it is all FC workers experience.

I have never worked for Amazon, but I have worked for FedEx unloading trailers by hand. It was back breaking work. The things I hear these workers saying remind me of that job. We were expected to throw boxes nonstop until it was finished, and our boxes per minute thru-put was closely monitored & expected to be kept above a certain level.

That type of work is not for everyone, and the 6 months I worked there, I watched countless people try and fail at the job. It was too hard and they quit within days. So, I can imagine what the amazon workers go through.

I don't wish poor working conditions on these people, but I also imagine that some of this is getting blown out of proportion.

⬐ digibo

Both can be classified as 'anecdotes', I agree, but talking about your work conditions when asked, is a completely different anecdote as opposed to someone not actively complaining when they are with friends/acquaintances.

⬐ TheBranca18

>Honestly, I was just trying to be silly ;) But you don't really expect us to watch your 20 min video do you?

I don't care if you watch it or not, but if you're going to comment on it and discredit it, it makes you look silly to do so without watching it.

>Obviously if folks have bad working conditions, I want them them to improve. But how are 'anecdotes' from people I personally know who work in Amazon FC's any different than 'testimonials' from people on TV. I know at least 2 people who work or have worked in these FC's and they never complained. They worked hard & collected their paychecks.

You're acting like the people that you know that never complained somehow cancel out the people complaining. That's not how it works.

>That doesn't mean this is everyone's experience, I'm sure many have been treated poorly. But it goes both ways, we can't assume because some were treated poorly that that is all FC workers experience.

It doesn't go both ways. The fact that you think highlighting some of them are being treated well is troubling. That should be the default. That shouldn't be commendable on Amazon's part.

>I have never worked for Amazon, but I have worked for FedEx unloading trailers by hand. It was back breaking work. The things I hear these workers saying remind me of that job. We were expected to throw boxes nonstop until it was finished, and our boxes per minute thru-put was closely monitored & expected to be kept above a certain level.

Sounds like FedEx has some labor issues to me. Do you think treating people like they're robots is a good thing? Both Amazon and FedEx seem to do so.

>I don't wish poor working conditions on these people, but I also imagine that some of this is getting blown out of proportion.

Where is your evidence that would lend credence to this getting blown out of proportion?

⬐ Accacin

> The fact you think your anecdotal evidence means anything is puzzling though.

It's not evidence. This isn't a peer-reviewed paper, this is an internet chat board. I'm also troubled that although my anecdotal isn't allowed, a comedy show video is 'evidence'.

I'm also not denying that Amazon treat their employers badly. What I'm saying is why the agenda towards Amazon in particular. Many people work in awful jobs but the media just ignores these.

Worst of all, when people who work for Amazon dare to say "it's not all bad", people like you tell them that they're wrong. When I was younger I worked some pretty awful jobs, but often it's people who have never worked jobs like this that think they know best.

I would have thought this was parody if it hadn't recently featured in John Oliver's Last Week Tonight...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9m7d07k22A

Market conditions are set by regulation and market participants (there is no such thing as a pure free market except in an economist's textbook). Congress (the Senate specifically, conservatives/republicans) have failed to raise the federal minimum wage ($7.25, unchanged since 2009) to reflect the required wage to survive with increased costs of living (housing, broken healthcare, etc). This caused Senator Sanders to have to shame Amazon into paying a higher wage to Amazon's warehouse workers (which Amazon not only agreed to do, but also stated they would lobby for raising the federal minimum wage as well).

Why shouldn't one of the wealthiest companies in the world (a labor market participant) be demonizied for worker abuse, even if it is "legal"?

If you don't understand what Amazon fulfillment workers experience, I encourage you to take a vacation day or two and apply for a job at a warehouse as a runner. You'll only need a day or two to appreciate the experience. There is no college course or bootcamp for compassion and empathy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9m7d07k22A (Warehouses: HBO's Last Week Tonight with John Oliver)

⬐ wolco

$7.25.. wow at some point robbery/murder/fraud makes more sense economically.

⬐ toomuchtodo

“I was always willing to be reasonable until I had to be unreasonable. Sometimes reasonable men must do unreasonable things.”

⬐ mdorazio

1) Because it's not an Amazon problem, it's a fulfillment center/warehouse employee problem that applies to just about every company in the industry I'm aware of.

2) Because Amazon is a for-profit company, not a charity, and its responsibility is not to pay employees more than it has to or give them more benefits/easier working conditions than are necessary. Are you also demonizing your own employer for not paying everyone as much as it possibly can without going bankrupt?

3) Because in many areas where Amazon warehouses operate, they are a significantly better job prospect than other options, working conditions be damned.

4) Because competitive markets don't let companies pay their workers whatever they want to. If you pay your workers too much, a competitor will pay theirs less, pass the savings on to customers, and take market share from you. Amazon is one of the wealthiest companies in the world because it doesn't pay all 600,000+ of its warehouse workers an amazing salary and let them work in better conditions.

A lot of people who are angry at Amazon are really angry at the outcome of unchecked capitalism. These are the frustrations that should be applied to voting, not to perfectly legal corporate policies.

⬐ toomuchtodo

This is a fine plan if you're not the one suffering. Democracy takes time, and you can (and should) use leverage against corporations at the same time when necessary.

⬐ matz1

Democracy takes time but I don't see any other way, as someone who are not the one suffering, I'm not going to boycott amazon. I like fast shipping and cheap item.

⬐ barbecue_sauce

Yes, that is why you are being criticized: for not caring about other people.

⬐ eropple

'matzl has a history of coming into these threads to tell everyone how much he just doesn't care. I like the cut of your jib but I've learned that it's probably better to down the troll and move on.

⬐ matz1

I'm criticizing the approach. I too would like to see changes.

⬐ matz1

Yes, can you see that is ineffective ? you want to make me care, you have to force me to care.

⬐ barbecue_sauce

So we agree that regulation/legislation is the best path forward.

⬐ fake-name

You're literally just saying you're a terrible person.

Congratulations, you're literally the problem.

⬐ matz1

How is telling me a terrible person going to be useful ? You have to face reality that like many other people, I like fast shipping and cheap stuff more than amazon worker welfare

⬐ slips

Cool. You're one tough dude. We're all jealous of you. Congratulations, it's gonna be a fun life.

⬐ dang

Please don't do flamewar or make arguments personal on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ slips

Perhaps call out the other person as well?

⬐ dang

Personal attacks are not ok here, regardless of how provocative another comment is. Please review the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you'd take their spirit to heart, we'd be grateful.

⬐ fake-name

It's not an attack, it's a statement.

The OP here is literally saying "I want cheap shipping and I don't care if the companies providing it actually hurt people just to save a few cents".

I can't think of any way to respond that isn't pointing out that holding that position makes you a monster.

⬐ dang

Attacks can be statements.

Not responding is always an option, and in a case like this it's the right option, as expressed by the ancient internet adage "please don't feed the trolls". The site guidelines ask the same, albeit less colorfully.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ dang

At this point your comments have the effect of trolling others, whether you meant to or not. Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? We've had to ask you this before.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ dang

Turning this into a personal attack is not ok. Would you please review the site guidelines and follow them when posting to HN? They include:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Be kind."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ toomuchtodo

Impactful solutions work regardless of freeloaders (in the economic, not derogatory, meaning).

⬐ dang

This is the point at which the thread swerves into unsubstantiveness and therefore flamewar. I realize it's not always predictable, but please take threads in the opposite direction.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ toomuchtodo

This was my attempt in taking the thread in the opposite direction, towards compassionate action vs "that's capitalism for you".

1. Take action to avoid suffering whenever possible. 2. Suggest others do the same.

⬐ toomuchtodo

Is politely pointing out or observing a course of action (proven, mind you) to prevent/obviate suffering at scale not inline with the site guidelines of “be kind”?

And if the concern is the (IMHO legitimate) comment being tinder for a flamewar, why take issue with the comment and not the replies?

My comment is no different then arguing for a technical system “hack” or shim, and should be viewed in the same light (as educational or academic, and not incendiary).

Regardless, I’ll confine this sort of discussion to other forums.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ noobermin

I will admit that R's don't deserve the full blame here, many Democrats also oppose raising the minimum wage, and Nancy Pelosi, promising she would put a $15 minimum wage on the floor has not brought it up since taking the house. Both parties for the most part have their contingents that oppose raising the federal minimum wage.

⬐ 6thaccount2

This...like most John Oliver episodes makes me scared for the future.