HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ mtlmtlmtlmtl

Hopefully it has a good single player mode. I have no interest in GTA online or any other online game for that matter. Gaming for me is about escape and immersion, not toxic interactions with others which is 90% of what I got when I tried GTA online.

⬐ ErneX

It has a full campaign, don’t worry.

⬐ mtlmtlmtlmtl

That's good. I've been worried with all the GTA Online ads I've been seeing lately that they were gonna go all in on it.

⬐ throwaway743

Hopefully side activities too. One feature I wish they'd bring back are the turf wars from San Andreas.

Personally felt like it was almost a bigger calling to than the missions. The reward felt greater as it gave the sense of ownership and expanding one's territory/empire, which also gave the benefit of not stressing about being taken out by a gang during missions.

Either way, can't wait to see what they have to present.

⬐ koheripbal

I did not see much evidence of story line anywhere in the leak. It looked entirely like resource collection and vanilla game mechanics.

No checkpoints were visible even. I think it's far more likely that this game will be about "open world" and "multiplayer" combat and driving mechanics, centered around resource collection.

⬐ hoffs

Or you know, most early stage development is about making the game work before actual story is built

⬐ koheripbal

That's not been my experience. Typically both are developed in parallel. The integration of the story into the dev build might come later, but certain entities that enable story development should be there. Things like checkpoints, non-background characters, locations/state driven events, unique items and environments, etc... What I saw in this leak did not include anything that - it all seem generic, and that pile-o-cash loot item highlights what the mission reward system is going to be like.

⬐ ChildOfChaos

Hope so too, but online is such a cash cow for companies they often don't care much about the single player experience anymore

⬐ sodafountan

Historically Rockstar has tended to be a little bit different, RDR2 had an amazing single player experience and so did GTA5. Rockstar didn't even release the online play for those games until after the game itself was launched - that's probably how they'll handle GTA6 although I don't think even they expected how big GTA online became.

⬐ Thaxll

Looks like the hack was made exactly how it was done for EA using stolen Slack cookie: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kvkqb/how-ea-games-was-hack...

There was a huge leak for Diablo 4 two weeks ago as well.

⬐ ggregoire

Sorry if it sounds very naive but:

1/ how do you steal Slack cookies? Was one of the victim's devices corrupted?

2/ to be able to use the stolen cookies before the session expires, am I right to assume these stolen cookies are sold just a few minutes/hours after being stolen? Is there like a marketplace for stolen cookies?

⬐ sourthyme

The lesson is don't send passwords over slack. If you have slack access can you easily get access to private/historical messages?

⬐ rbera

It depends on your company’s retention policy for historical messages. Otherwise, you’re basically signed in as that user, so you can see whatever they see… which can be a lot depending on the company’s transparency.

⬐ lelandfe

I’m aware of many companies who have moved to a 90 day message retention policy in Slack. I thought it was a cost saving measure. But I’m beginning to see the wisdom in it.

⬐ moeadham

They way things are going, 90 days is too long.

⬐ djmips

Without infinite retention, our company would lose untold searchable solutions to problems and other vital information.

⬐ ryandrake

Sorry to be Captain Obvious but the solution for that is to update the official, permanently stored reference docs when a question is asked on slack, not keep the only source of tribal knowledge on a ephemeral chat app.

IMO Slack and chat apps are way overused in development teams. They’re there for questions like “when are we meeting for that team event tonight?” And “Hey, can you review this code before I submit?” And NOT “Can you describe, in massive detail, all the arguments that get passed to our FooBar function?”

⬐ lelandfe

I felt the same way, coming from a company that had an infinite retention policy.

We've since gotten into the headspace of knowing that any solutions you post in Slack are ephemeral. You'll routinely see people in Slack prompting others to move good solutions into a document in our wiki (or, soon, StackOverflow). I think it's probably better that way.

⬐ dfcarney

It’s a deep hole for a company to dig itself out of, not to mention changing the habits of people to explicitly document things elsewhere.

It would be neat if Slack reported stats on searches so that, for example, a company could better understand what key conversations should be moved into proper documents…but this is likely against Slack’s interests.

⬐ bayindirh

In a previous project I worked on, we used to nickname the passwords used throughout the system. The password re-use was virtually non-existent, but sometimes we forgot which system required which one (we were installing and erasing a lot of servers for testing stuff).

So, someone would ask a password to a system, we'd answer "ridiculously long one", or "the one X came up with", "variation 5".

When one of the security guys overheard what we did, and asked the details, we told what we do. The answer was "oh, that's neat!, go on".

⬐ Tempest1981

How did the initial communication occur? Whiteboard? In person? Shared vault?

⬐ bayindirh

Long living passwords shared via paper, and lived on people (like on their wallet, and never laid in the open), the other short lived ones are just remembered, but not mentally tied to anywhere.

It was a fast-paced project, so the project dynamics made the method work. If the systems and passwords were more stable, it might not have worked this well.

⬐ kenjackson

I’ve never had someone send me a password before. What do they need to send passwords over slack for?

⬐ ajmurmann

"Oh, I forgot my AWS password, can you reset it?"

Fortunately, AWS from my example makes you set a new one after this. I'm sure there are other company-administered services with similar dynamics where the pwd change isn't required or the admin won't check that box because try are bad at their job

⬐ vladvasiliu

Even Windows has this, but there are a bunch of corner cases where it doesn't work.

The integrated RADIUS server can be configured to allow passwords that need changing (so that you can actually connect to AD and change it if you're away). But many other services, like AD-backed VPNs and such, will choke on a password that must be changed.

⬐ michaelt

Start by not having a password manager that is universally adopted across the corporation.

Then maybe you've got a planned change that requires a manual operation on the production database, and you don't have the password already because it's rotated daily.

Maybe you need the agent license key for the monitoring system, so you can add it to the secrets file for the new host you're setting up.

Maybe someone created a new service and, and asked you to generate a new oauth2 client secret for it, and you need to send it to them.

Maybe it's corporate policy that every laptop must have an encrypted disk, and you've mailed a new remote worker a laptop and now need to send them the disk password by a different channel.

Maybe you occasionally need to work with some decrepit system that doesn't support single-sign-on - like a server's IPMI or some obscure bit of network equipment.

Of course there are better options than slack (which doesn't even have an off-the-record mode) but if slack is what everyone uses? Well....

⬐ naet

I'm a contract worker and often times a company first onboards me to slack, then sends me a bunch of login information in plain text after opening an internal ticket to add me to various systems.

⬐ somehnguy

Oof, that sounds bad.

My current company has an internal ‘secret sharing’ tool kind of like Pastebin (but encrypted, one time open links, etc) for one off sharing of things like that. For all other creds we use Vault heavily.

PII, passwords, things like that are NEVER to go over Teams or email.

⬐ nightski

If these are temp passwords that get changed on first login and expire maybe it's not so bad. If it is a normal password though yes that is pretty bad.

⬐ staticassertion

Once a message is deleted there is no way to recover it, to my knowledge. But message retention in Slack is infinite. Further, sessions are infinite, at least last I set it up.

I think we set something like 1 year of retention for "public" channels, 9 months for private, and then certain channels can lower it beyond that. Same for files. And we have our tokens expire once a month.

The defaults for Slack are pretty insane.

⬐ tokza

or use secrets sharing service like this https://github.com/jhaals/yopass

⬐ Buttons840

> The lesson is don't send passwords over slack.

I was going to make a suggestion about PGP or GPG or whatever, but those tools are so bad you can't expect software engineers to know how to use them... (not sarcasm)

Snark aside. What I mean here is that GPG is difficult to use and I would guess 90% of programmers don't know how to use it.

⬐ aborsy

GPG works fine for me too, and is fairly straightforward (except for email encryption, since my recipients often don’t want encryption, and there is also lack of good email clients supporting encryption).

⬐ VPenkov

Is describing them as bad related to their ease of use or is it related to technical shortcomings?

I use PGP very frequently and I'd like to know what's bad about it so I could maybe look for alternatives.

⬐ Buttons840

You're right and I'm sorry. I should have explained my snarky comment fully.

I meant that they're difficult to use. I would love to be proven wrong or directed to some good resources for learning them.

⬐ chlorion

It's really not so bad. You use --genkey to generate a key, --import to import a key, --encrypt and --decrypt do what they say on the tin, --sign to sign messages, --recv-key can download a key from a keyserver and --verify to verify signatures. That's pretty much 99% of what I do with gpg! It behaves like a standard command line utility and can read from stdin and output to stdout if you need it to.

I hear that gpg is very difficult to use quite a lot but I have not had that experience at all. The flags are pretty self explanatory and the magpage(s) are very detailed!

There are also decent GUI interfaces that are extremely simple to operate! I would recommend "kleopatra" for most people! Emacs also works if you are into that!

⬐ Buttons840

How would I send my public key to someone?

⬐ chlorion

I'm not sure if you are asking how to export your public key or how to distribute it, so I guess I can mention both.

You can export your public key using the --export flag, by default it exports all public keys in the keyring, so you can pass a keyid to only export a specific key. If you need the exported key to be in text form (not just a binary file) you can pass the --armor flag as well. The --armor flag encodes the binary data with base64 or something which allows you to operate on it like you would any other text (copy/paste, send over email, etc).

As for distributing the key, it depends! Lots of people put their public key on their GitHub profile or somewhere on their website (if they have a website). Since we are on HN you could put it in the "about" field on your HN profile. If none of these work you can send it over telegram, signal or whatever your favorite messaging method is.

For most people and situations the TOFU (trust of first use) method of distribution works fine. If you have stronger security requirements or are more paranoid you can establish a more secure channel or try to meet with the other parties in person.

⬐ glassconclusion

Looks like they are using IMGUI as dev tool: https://github.com/ocornut/imgui

⬐ TakeBlaster16

I noticed that too. I wonder if the creator has ever seen a dime of Rockstar's GTA money. Looks like no[1], but at least there are a few other AAA developers there.

[1]: https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/wiki/Sponsors

⬐ honkdaddy

Sidebar: if I wanted to eventually transition from Android dev to C++ game dev, is my time building C++ ImGui tools a comparable experience, or is game dev a truly different beast? Curious for some opinions :)

The reason I like mobile and small desktop applications is partially for the tight cycles of build/test/fix/ship. Even writing it out now, the experience of working on any game of even moderate complexity must be entirely different, right?

⬐ ptr

Having a tight dev loop is important for complex games too — when you press F5, you build the whole game. Sometimes you even build the engine and all dependencies. Shipping usually follows a slower patch schedule since you need to pass certification etc.

If you work on a game, building ImGui tools isn’t a primary concern, it’s what you do to be able to easily test your stuff.

⬐ arketyp

The testing and debugging graphics is art. I don't find myself engaged in games but I appreciate witnessing the craft in this way.

⬐ Dinux

Yes, for their internal testing tools.

⬐ meibo

If you enter any game studio nowadays, you're very likely to see Dear ImGui - it's pretty ubiquitous, and just flexible enough for programmers to make nice debug views for any purpose. It's nice in that you won't have to learn another UI kit when switching studios.

⬐ Der_Einzige

Wow. The paper on NLP I'm presenting soon includes software that I built using the python fork, dearpygui. I had no idea that dear imgui was so popular.

It seems to me to be super high quality of a GUI library.

⬐ gambiting

Yeah, I work at Ubisoft and we officially sponsor the project too - it's used pretty much on every production we have.

You can see it here being used in Rainbow Six: https://montreal.ubisoft.com/en/ubisoft-sponsors-user-interf...

⬐ ok_dad

As someone who played gta online a lot, here’s some thoughts:

- the behavior of npcs is way more complex here. They’re not just running off scared. The ones at the registers have a way more complex animation than the current gen game.

- the cops seem to have a more refined line of sight and search pattern. They don’t just come at you.

- there is way more use of interiors here, in the current gen there are very few interiors other than instanced garages and stuff.

Nothing else really stood out but it’s clear that even if the graphics are not updated they’ll still have plenty of improvements to gameplay mechanics and world depth.

⬐ torginus

I wonder if this dumb behavior in games (GTA in particular, and games in general) has to do with the incredibly lackluster CPU power in consoles - a single core of the PS4 has about 2/3rds the performance of a Core 2 Duo core which came out in 2006.

⬐ ok_dad

There’s a little of that, but mostly the console does fine with complex AI and a fairly large number of NPCs, it’s the games with tons of simulation state like Cities Skylines or a large base build with a lot of parts and physics in FO4 that have issues.

⬐ aqfamnzc

With 8 cores and (I would imagine) much more dev time put into optimization than your typical software, I don't see that as an issue really. Most home computer software is still single-threaded, so it makes sense a single core would need to be more powerful in that scenario.

Although, I guess maybe my argument is moot since your average home PC CPU is going to have at least 4, probably more, cores...

⬐ torginus

Imo, the more complex the code, the more difficult to make it run multithreaded. Typical gameplay code, that potentially touches everything every frame, and can be changed on the designers whims, is typically very difficult to scale across codes.

For example, Dwarf Fortress is one of the most complicated games of all time, and the creator wrote about how he kept to just running it on 1 core.

⬐ bayindirh

When you're starting from scratch, designing for multiple threads is relatively easy. When you're iterating on a previous design or your best practices from previous projects, it becomes very hard, because you need to move/refactor/redesign/reimplement a lot of code.

On top of that, you need to test it, which means it's much more time consuming.

⬐ torginus

>When you're starting from scratch, designing for multiple threads is relatively easy. It's not. Gameplay code changes constantly and always touches a ton of systems, it's very hard to parallelize, and load balance between cores.

I'd be surprised if any complex modern game had multithreaded gameplay code, and even if they do, it's usually some common, but CPU intensive problems, like pathing that gets parallelized.

Additionally, I found that most people don't have the skillset to write correct multithreaded code in any capacity, and even those that do frequently introduce hard to detect bugs, in addition to being a huge mental overhead.

It's even harder to make performance gains using multithreading. Let's say I multithread my code, but the additional complexity, and synchronization makes my code run at 60% the original speed. On 2 threads, I'm running at 120% speed. It would've been much easier to keep my code on 1 thread, and invest the mental energy to make the code 20% faster there.

⬐ AdvancedCarrot

keep in mind that GTA V had to run on the PS3 as well. It's a technical marvel that the game worked at all honestly.

⬐ haunter

Graphics are definitely upgraded even if it's an older build. The volumetric fog is the same one as in RDR2 https://imgur.com/a/BKGj0vH

⬐ ok_dad

Yea, based on a more detailed viewing of the leak, I feel like they used a lot of RDR2 code. It’s been a while since I played RDR2, but I get a distinct feeling that the NPC behavior is similar to RDR2 somehow that I can’t really put my finger on. It would make sense, because I believe RDR2 was using an upgraded Rage engine from the GTA5 engine.

⬐ Stevvo

I feel real bad for Rockstar. So many people have put so much work into this for so many years only for it to leak out in this form is a real shame.

I guess their only recourse is to get a trailer out asap to show the game how it was intended to be seen.

Leaker claims to be the same guy that hacked Uber.

⬐ flohofwoe

Why? This is what all work-in-progress game development looks like, there's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

IMHO there should be much more WIP material like this in the public, published by the game developers themselves. Too many people think that games just spring into existance, without a clear idea how game development actually works.

⬐ detaro

I don't blame major developers for not showing anything. If it looks unfinished (because it is), you get derision because the game "looks shit" and is "bad". If you show anything cool that you need to later scale back or cut you get dragged on release for "false promises". A place like Rockstar who a) has a giant audience, which exaggerates those effects and b) doesn't need the advertising bonus has good arguments for waiting until everything is mostly in place for release.

(Whereas small/solo indie devs often show in-development work, because having anything seen that might interest future players is much more important to them)

EDIT: case in point, even here we already have comments wondering what mistakes Rockstar made because this random development footage, likely years before release, doesn't look that much better than GTA V.

⬐ WastingMyTime89

There is little WIP material released for blockbuster games like GTA because it’s useless for the studio. Rockstar doesn’t need to generate hype for the brand long before the game is ready to sell. They prefer a very large marketing push at release.

I can safely predict that this leak will have approximately zero impact on the actual sales of GTA VI however.

⬐ weberer

This is why I loved the Factorio blog. From 2013 until release in 2020 they would write a weekly blog about what was happening and all the interesting problems they ran into. Its really fascinating.

https://factorio.com/blog/

⬐ Stevvo

I agree with you, but leaks are not fun. It's theft of creative endeavor.

⬐ troad

In my (gamedev) experience, a huge part of the appeal of games is the illusion there's more than meets the eye. Most gamers want to suspend their disbelief and let their imagination run rampant; they can react very poorly to seeing behind the curtain.

⬐ raydev

I don't think this is how people view games anymore. Look how at phrases like "t-pose" and "hitbox" and "clipping through" are used among regular (non-nerd) kids/teens. There are certain things about games that everyone understands now.

⬐ honkdaddy

I felt a similar way after playing and tweaking lots of Mario 64 and OoT mods. Obviously I still love the games with all my heart, but getting to play it at so many different levels of polish and playability definitely allows the 'Wow - Perfection' feeling to fade a bit. I think playing an alpha version or poorly modded copy of a game like Amnesia: Dark Descent would totally kill the atmospheric creepiness which made the game so well received.

I guess it's a bit like watching the BTS of something like the LotR trilogy. When you get to see all the orcs in full makeup just goofing around with the rest of the film crew, it means when you see them later in the real movie, you can't help but be reminded they're just people in great makeup. Keeping up that illusion in game dev must be enormously important.

⬐ Sakos

This is an issue that the industry itself has caused. It's a self-inflicted wound. Companies never show footage like this, so gamers don't know what games look like during development. Then they get disappointed by footage like this or early looks that don't look absolutely mindblowing. If companies were more open about development, this wouldn't be a problem.

> a huge part of the appeal of games is the illusion there's more than meets the eye. Most gamers want to suspend their disbelief and let their imagination run rampant

This is complete nonsense.

⬐ arketyp

>> a huge part of the appeal of games is the illusion there's more than meets the eye. Most gamers want to suspend their disbelief and let their imagination run rampant

>This is complete nonsense.

Not sure it's complete nonsense. I don't know if it was me growing older and wiser in general but I stopped playing video games around the time I gained an understanding of how they are built. I could spend hours as a kid trying to reach beyond the world boundaries, thinking I could discover hidden places and stories. Not sure if seeing leaks back then would have changed my perspective though. Today I find the behind the scenes material the true piece of art. Then again I'm not a consumer.

⬐ zppln

Yeah, I read PC Gamer in the late 90's and early 00's and I feel the situation was pretty different back then. Sure, studios still controlled what went out, but it was a whole lot more rough around the edges. I think PC Gamer even had Peter Molyneux publish what was basically his monthly "blog post" about the development of (IIRC) Black & White.

⬐ troad

Sharing WIP in gamedev, a play in one act:

“Your art is ugly. I hate your aesthetic. Your game should look like Half Life Alyx but also Scrabble.”

“Uhh… that’s a screenshot of a 3D model open in Blender you’re looking at.”

“It doesn’t even have colour. It’s straight from 1999. I’ve been following this game on Twitter for two weeks, so you OWE me.“

“I mean, it hadn’t been rendered yet, let alone had any post-processing applied. It’s literally a model open in an editor.”

“Your engine is terrible. It probably isn’t even multithreaded. All good engines are multithreaded. You should use the Nvidia engine. All good games are made for Nvidia.”

Fin.

Look, I appreciate your optimism, but anyone in gamedev will tell you trying to interact with the public over WIP work is 90% noise, 10% signal, and the noise can be so toxic and deleterious to one’s mental health that it’s a fair decision just not to bother. (Much love to the guys and gals who comprise that second group though.)

⬐ pennaMan

Why do you feel bad? How is a bit of footage of the game in development affect anything about the game at all? Does the success of the game depend on the public being ignorant about the fact that a game needs to be developed before it's launched? I'm really confused.

⬐ rtev

As far as I know, major swaths of the source code is now public

⬐ account42

So? What do you think that actually changes?

⬐ usrusr

Gives them free attention of a kind they could never buy no matter how many millions they'd throw at it. Perfectly complements the kind of attention they can buy. Difficult to imagine a company suffering less from a security breach.

⬐ ErneX

I don't think that's entirely true.

This will disrupt development for some time, they need to figure out what has leaked (seems the hacker also took code from GTA V and VI), what changes they need to make to their systems to prevent this again.

This will probably delay the release date of the game.

edit: fixed typo.

⬐ MichaelCollins

Why should game programmers need to pause their development for the security investigation to proceed? It's not as though Rockstar's game programmers are also the private investigators; the people who investigate the leak won't be the programmers and artists who are making the game. I'm sure they'll get interviewed during the investigation, but that's no more than a few hours of their time wasted.

⬐ ErneX

If this guy really has the source code of both 5 & 6 this obviously will add more development time. This one of the biggest games specially due to its online functionality, if bad actors have code related to that it’s no bueno.

⬐ MichaelCollins

I don't buy it. They're not going to re-engineer their netcode just because a development version of it got leaked. It will probably get rewritten anyway in the normal course of development. But if they were counting on an obscure protocol keeping hackers out of their game, they were always going to lose that advantage within hours to weeks of the official launch anyway.

⬐ raydev

I don't know how normal I am but this makes me excited. It shows me they weren't just leaning on remastering GTA5 yet again for the upcoming PS6 and Xbox Series One X. I hear new dialogue. I see new mechanics. GTA5 came out in 2013 and they've barely shipped updates to it and left bugs for years.

This gives me hope.

⬐ philjohn

Something similar happened with Half Life 2 - and it went on to be a smash hit.

Yes, it's not nice to have your work revealed before its ready, but locking down and just keeping the pace of development up would be the more judicious use of time.

⬐ Someone1234

I'd agree, and also point out that Half Life 2 was far more damaging. This is a bunch of tech development demos and trials, there's little to no story spoilers. Whereas HL2's leak contained levels and story elements that appeared in the final game. It was unfinished/alpha, but really showed what HL2 would eventually be, whereas this just shows some of the technology that GTA VI may contain.

I don't even read too much into the diner scenario, since that's a great test-bed for interactive NPC behavior, object interactions, and general scenario creation tooling. It MIGHT be in the final game, but it may also not be, and it wouldn't be impactful either way.

⬐ Aardwolf

This leak only makes me more stoked for the game, so I hope this doesn't cause any detrimental effect on development. If anything, it shows how hard the development is and what kind of details are being tested.

⬐ rwmj

It doesn't detract from the value of the final game, and may even be a bit of unintentional viral marketing (I had no idea a new game was in development). Could be good for Rockstar?

⬐ mhh__

They'll make billions regardless of the games quality on launch

⬐ redanddead

The dev tools look really bad ass. It's inspiring, it shows the other Devs how the real pros do it.

What's the argument against them building in public like the rest of us?

⬐ Stevvo

It's just ImGui and line traces. i.e. What everyone does because it's quick and easy to build.

⬐ agumonkey

nothing special there, i remember similar thing in mgs3

⬐ detaro

What "rest of us" is showing off their internal tooling in public? (sure, there are companies that do, but this is not some universal thing that's unusual not to do)

⬐ rvz

> What's the argument against them building in public like the rest of us?

Not sure if you are aware of the protection of trade secrets and intellectual property for games and proprietary game engines that if leaked would be useful to hackers, cheaters and aim botters?

⬐ pongo1231

Sure, not like GTA Online on PC is overrun with hackers anyways. Also I'm not sure how the source code would help people using aimbots?

⬐ capableweb

> What's the argument against them building in public like the rest of us?

Who are these "the rest of us". Most game development happens behind closed door, the gameplay only to be seen as the game is ready to be released. In fact, most software in general is developed like this. Open/public development is not at all the norm for development.

⬐ Bancakes

In an age of early access and pre-alphas, Rockstar could sell this as-is for $20. No shame here.

⬐ staticassertion

Presumably they could have done more to not get hacked.

⬐ ErneX

Agreed, games should be seen at the state and shape their creators want, not with leaks.

⬐ Sakos

I don't see how it's a shame. How does it ruin anything at all? I think it's extremely weird how we're so deferential to the PR departments of these billion dollar companies. It's not like the video puts it in a bad light either. It's just footage of development, which is the type of stuff that never gets out after a game is released and is important for historical preservation. Honestly, I'm tired of companies being so tight-lipped about game development in general, so seeing something like this is awesome.

⬐ ErneX

Bungie had some of their staff doxxed and threatened, so I kind of understand why they just decide to not share stuff ahead of time:

https://www.polygon.com/23282211/bungie-destiny-2-communicat...

⬐ password1

People on twitter are already sharing Linkedin profiles of employees connected to the recorded videos, asking for more or acting like they found the leaker. Which is absolutely idiotic since the video were stolen from Slack and the people who recorded them have nothing to do with the leak.

⬐ KVFinn

Might take a few months of dev time just dealing with the legal and security issues from the source code getting hacked, games use a ton of middleware from many different companies.

>The guy with the data/source code for that game is just on forums taking requests like a reddit AMA, searching the source code then pulling up what people ask for. One guy just asked him to send him some code related to an ongoing court case vs TTI, and he just did it.

>Turns out the guy asking him to scour the source code is one of the GTA5 cheat makers R*/TTI is suing lmao.

https://twitter.com/APZonerunner/status/1571411248390242307

>I don't see how it's a shame. How does it ruin anything at all?

⬐ oxff

My thoughts too.

⬐ ErneX

Read this thread:

https://twitter.com/charalanahzard/status/157141520154692403...

⬐ m1gu3l

No.

⬐ ErneX

Feel free to disagree but imo she's right.

GTA makes billions yes, but it's people working on those games, they want their work to be seen the best way possible not because someone got into their systems and decided to leak it. Specially with games like this with years of development.

⬐ permo-w

do you genuinely think that coders for gta VI are going to care that their work got seen before it was finished? how vain do you think these people are?

⬐ ErneX

Of course they care, this is bad for the devs and the company:

https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1571489679534608384

⬐ permo-w

you seem to have an odd habit of posting twitter threads as justifications for arguments

⬐ MichaelCollins

I don't think she's right; she says leaks are awful for excited fans but I'm an excited fan and it's not awful for me. She's speaking in sweeping generalities, speaking for people who aren't her. This video didn't give me any expectations for GTA VI that weren't already obvious; e.g. it will be a 3rd person game where I can commit crimes.

⬐ DonHopkins

A leak?!? Oh my! Butler, fetch me my fainting couch post haste -- I do think I am becoming overwhelmed with a case of the vapours!

The original Star Wars wouldn't be Star Wars without all the behind-the-scenes photos and film they "leaked". As I a kid, and still now, I cherish that stuff, and it makes the franchise so much more valuable.

https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-behin...

⬐ cm2187

Also the main commercial reason to keep secrecy is to not cannibalise your existing products by creating an expectation that if the customer holds on a little more on a purchase..., but gta5 is almost 10 years old now.

As for the environment, the videos I looked at don't reveal much anyway.

⬐ Laarlf

I really hope for a COOP story. GTA V looked like the perfect game for it but that never happened. I really enjoy COOP games with friends because of the general increased hostility in Multiplayer games (or at least I feel like it) and the endless microtransactions, but I feel like there are way too few COOP games...

⬐ chippiewill

Weren't all the multiplayer heists in GTA Online basically coop GTA?

⬐ aaaaaaaaata

Not sure, still loading.

⬐ Laarlf

While I agree, all of them required specific amounts of players to play, sometimes you keep friends out, sometimes you had randos who had no idea what they were doing. And really... there were way too few of them. The playtime is not that long of them and they are too linear to be worth replaying. Saints row 3 arguably has better coop. Saints rows story is not built for this, but they just play the cutscenes at the same time and sync the world. Now if rockstar spent 12 days implementing that... The GTA story would be almost perfect to play together IMO. If they bothered to sync things up.

Your statement is not technically wrong, the best kind of not wrong. I saw a lot of games in the past which had some COOP mode which you can technically call COOP, but just has so few things to do that I feel like it was just an excuse to write COOP on the box. Battlefield 3, Far Cry 3 come to mind.

⬐ mhh__

Seems legit to my eyes.

Game engine looks like an upgraded GTA V, UI is apparently authentic rockstar.

⬐ DonHopkins

Yes, I love that user interface design style. I predict it will have an ironic resurgence. Some day "Flat Design" will fall out of fashion and all iPhones and Android devices will look that way, mark my word!

⬐ moffkalast

Interesting that they're still using what seems like GTA 5 assets but I suppose it makes sense to use them as placeholders while working on story and gameplay, while the art teams churns the new ones out.

⬐ miyuru

link to the leak: https://gtaforums.com/topic/985481-gta-6-americas-leak-90-mp...

⬐ honkdaddy

Wow, I can't believe the amount of skepticism and hate the guy initially got! He posts what will end up being a historically important leak that'll hit the mainstream news, and the first comment is "Sorry bud no pic no click".

Gamer forums can be a prickly place, haha.

⬐ oldstrangers

That was actually an entertaining ride. Watching the initial doubt and skepticism slow turn into realization and fear.

⬐ _joel

Well, fake leaks aren't exactly uncommon.

⬐ atfzl

The person who posted the link says they were the one who broke into Uber recently.

> My previous work: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/15/technology/uber-hacking-b...

⬐ Tiberium

I am kind of skeptical - the original author of the GTA 6 leak left a Telegram username to contact him, but that Telegram account was only registered today/yesterday (ID 5731422660), so it might as well be someone else who's trying to impersonate that Uber hacker.

Or it could simply be that his older account got lost/blocked/something else so he made a new one :)

⬐ Bayart

> The hacker, who provided screenshots of internal Uber systems to demonstrate his access, said that he was 18 years old and had been working on his cybersecurity skills for several years. He said he had broken into Uber’s systems because the company had weak security. In the Slack message that announced the breach, the person also said Uber drivers should receive higher pay.

Seems like a nice kid. I hope he doesn't get caught in litigations.

⬐ 10x_contrarian

They also apparently posted the n-word in company chat and redirected all internal tools to a graphic shock image. Nice kid indeed.

⬐ olliecornelia

Yea, I hope it goes straight to extrajudicial killing.

⬐ i_like_apis

Screw that kid.

Not even grey hat activity.

⬐ KronisLV

> I hope he doesn't get caught in litigations.

If you ever discover vulnerabilities, responsible disclosure seems like the only way to try to keep yourself out of trouble and even then only if ignorant people in the company/lawmakers won't misconstrue what has happened and want to put you in jail regardless.

Going on the company Slack, announcing that you're a hacker who has stolen data and finishing your messages with something negative about the company does not seem to be a good way of doing that:

> Hi @here

> I announce i am a hacker and uber has suffered a data breach.

> Slack has been stolen, confidential data with Confluence, stash and 2 monorepos from phabricator have also been stolen, along with secrets from sneakers.

> #uberunderpaisdrives

That feels like opening yourself up to being treated as a criminal, especially if you post about it elsewhere (like social media) and the "breach" gets attention, which might negatively impact the stock price of the company in question.

It's good that many companies out there have bug bounties and hopefully InfoSec will be improved as a consequence of this, but there are better ways about achieving the same result, without putting yourself at so much risk.

⬐ boltzmann-brain

It should be clear that the user you're replying to was using humor.

⬐ that_guy_iain

Well, considering what they did was a crime. Being treated like a criminal seems fair.

⬐ KronisLV

Indeed, which is unfortunate, since there already is a better way to go about this (in most cases): https://hackerone.com/uber?type=team

Except for the social engineering aspect, in regards to acquiring the credentials, however.

Which makes the situation even more problematic.

⬐ 878654Tom

I sometimes do these bug bounties and some of these are just...

I mean Uber critical max payout is... $15.000. These are bugs that leak out client data and could possible damage the company for millions. I've had companies that argued with me that loss of client data wasn't critical but minor. Some even just give a bounty of $250.

Not that this excuses the behavior of hackers leaking confidential data but companies easily pay millions for anti-virus software that only detects well-known viruses but skimp on zero-days in their own software.

⬐ that_guy_iain

I’m not sure why people are acting like this was anything but a criminal act that was from beginning to end anything but a security researcher.

Just because it was a teen whole wrote that they stole things.

⬐ Bayart

Two reasons :

- Many of us got our start in computing doing the same stuff at the same age.

- It didn't end up on some shady forum for auction.

⬐ parkingrift

This kind found a power shell script on a shared drive with plain text admin credentials to practically every internal Uber system. How exactly is anyone supposed to submit a bug bounty for that?

⬐ staticassertion

Kinda nice that someone's going around showing how shitty the average company's security is. Not that I outright support crime, but it's good to have these anecdotes to point to - silver lining, I suppose.

There's really only so much you can say about a company's security through a bug bounty. You can't show how devastating a vuln would be, you're stuck on the perimeter, etc. It leads to companies improving appsec a lot, which is great, but everything else is still weak.

⬐ mkl95

Yup. The average company lets their employees paste credentials on Slack, email them, etc. and they are allowed to be things like "password". The challenge is not really to hack them, is being willing to do it.

⬐ guerrilla

> Kinda nice that someone's going around showing how shitty the average company's security is. Not that I outright support crime, but it's good to have these anecdotes to point to - silver lining, I suppose.

Remember lulzsec? If not, I think you would have liked that drama.

⬐ staticassertion

Oh yeah, for sure. It seems like antisec has taken a significant back seat to bug bounties and the like.

⬐ guerrilla

I wonder if that means they're actually paying enough or whether there's something else to it.

⬐ unpopularopp

Cool to see the dev tools!

But that made me wonder... will ever have "visual coding/scripting" outside of video game development? Sometimes I wonder that we are still in the "silent cinema age" of computer programming. Sure we have new and modern tools but in the end of the day it's still writing plain text.

⬐ meibo

Even in game development, it often turns out to be a huge mess that coders have to go and sort out after the fact, it's almost inevitable if it's general purpose enough.

If you do decide to build a scripting system for designers, I would recommend being very conservative with features and thinking twice before adding any new feature.

⬐ DonHopkins

Just hire competent and trustworthy designers, instead of purposefully crippling the tools you spend so much time developing. The best designers can also code, and if you design a system that discourages instead of encourages designers from coding, you're wasting the potential of those precious coder/designers, and wasting the opportunity to train your best designers to code too.

It's not as if Rock Star can't find anybody qualified who wants to work for them, or any designers who are willing to learn to code in a powerful visual scripting language.

This attitude causes disasters like PHP's "Smarty" templating language.

PHP was already a templating language, but somebody got it in their head that there should be an iron-clad separation between designers and programmers, and that PHP gave designers too much power and confused them, and that their incompetent untrustworthy designers who refused to learn anything about programming deserved something even "simpler" than PHP, so they came up with Smarty.

Then over time the realized that their designers were powerless, so their programmers would have to learn TWO languages so they could wade into the Smarty templates to make them actually work with all the extra code they had to write because Smarty was so crippled, so they nickle-and-dimed more and more incoherent programming language elements into Smarty, making it EVEN HARDER to use and more complicated and less consistent than PHP, yet nowhere near as powerful.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20736574

DonHopkins on Aug 19, 2019 | parent | context | favorite | on: YAML: Probably not so great after all

One of the most ridiculous examples of this was the Smarty templating language for PHP.

Somebody got the silly idea in their head of implementing a templating language in PHP, even though PHP is ALREADY a templating language. So they took out all the useful features of PHP, then stuck a few of them back in with even goofier inconsistent hard-to-learn syntax, in a way that required a code generation step, and made templates absolutely impossible to debug.

So in the end your template programmers need to know something just as difficult as PHP itself, yet even more esoteric and less well documented, and it doesn't even end up saving PHP programmers any time, either.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100226023855/http://lutt.se/bl...

>Bad things you accomplish when using Smarty:

>Adding a second language to program in, and increasing the complexity. And the language is not well spread at all, allthough it is’nt hard to learn.

>Not really making the code more readable for the designer.

>You include a lot of code which, in my eyes, is just overkill (more code to parse means slower sites).

https://web.archive.org/web/20090227001433/http://www.rantin...

>Most people would argue, that Smarty is a good solution for templating. I really can’t see any valid reasons, that that is so. Specially since “Templating” and “Language” should never be in the same statement. Let alone one word after another. People are telling me, that Smarty is “better for designers, since they don’t need to learn PHP!”. Wait. What? You’re not learning one programming language, but you’re learning some other? What’s the point in that, anyway? Do us all a favour, and just think the next time you issue that statement, okay?

http://www.ianbicking.org/php-ghetto.html

>I think the Broken Windows theory applies here. PHP is such a load of crap, right down to the standard library, that it creates a culture where it's acceptable to write horrible code. The bugs and security holes are so common, it doesn't seem so important to keep everything in order and audited. Fixes get applied wholesale, with monstrosities like magic quotes. It's like a shoot-first-ask-questions-later policing policy -- sure some apps get messed up, but maybe you catch a few attacks in the process. It's what happened when the language designers gave up. Maybe with PHP 5 they are trying to clean up the neighborhood, but that doesn't change the fact when you program in PHP you are programming in a dump.

⬐ prescriptivist

Someone doesn’t like Smarty…

⬐ FartyMcFarter

> Even in game development, it often turns out to be a huge mess

Mandatory link: https://blueprintsfromhell.tumblr.com/

⬐ shakezula

Don’t know what I’m looking at but i love the idea of graphing software systems to explain to a layman the pure hell some of them can become.

⬐ FartyMcFarter

> Don’t know what I’m looking at

Unreal Engine 4 includes a visual scripting language called Blueprint.

That website collects some of the bad examples of what people do with this system - a lot of the times, the results are the visual equivalent of spaghetti code. In my experience, this kind of spaghetti is quite normal in shipped games.

⬐ shakezula

Thanks for the explanation! I didn’t know that. It’s a great site, thanks for posting the link.

⬐ capableweb

> In my experience, this kind of spaghetti is quite normal in shipped games

Just to be clear, any type of spaghetti (visual or code) is common in any type of shipped software product (game or not), especially ones where there is deadlines.

⬐ KineticLensman

> "visual coding/scripting" outside of video game development

One common application of node-graph editing is shader construction for rendering engines. For Octane, see e.g. [0]

[0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=octane+render+engine+node+graph+ed...

⬐ discordance

I’ve worked a few mechatronics type gigs and Labview was standard there. One of the few places I have seen or used visual coding.

⬐ ChuckNorris89

You never saw Simulink? It's super entrenched in automotive and aerospace.

It's also very nice to visualize models of components of cars/planes in Simulink using visual computing and play around with various blocks and learn how they affect the stability of the system.

⬐ discordance

Matlab was standard for us in university but not used anywhere in the industry/companies I worked.

⬐ naillo

As someone not in the gaming industry, what does 'visual coding/scripting' mean? Any links or wikipedia articles that describe it? (Or an explanation yourself?) I'm curiuos if it could work well with new developments in AI generated images (stable diffusion etc).

⬐ FartyMcFarter

> I'm curiuos if it could work well with new developments in AI generated images (stable diffusion etc).

Visual coding is still highly symbolic and structured, typically a directed graph representing data flow. The "visual" part is just a middleman so to speak.

I don't have a lot of experience with AI-generated images, but from what I've seen it doesn't look like its strength is generating highly structured/logical images.

⬐ unpopularopp

Unreal Blueprints for example https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.0/en-US/blueprints-visual-sc... That's the leading visual scripting system

This a guy has very good tutorials in video form https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6Nl-OEhSo

⬐ capableweb

Houdini is also a leading example, but for the 3D/VFX/movie industry, where nodes/networks are basically visual scripting to do basically everything in the product.

https://www.sidefx.com/products/houdini/

⬐ ivanjermakov

Two applications that come to mind that use visual scripting are:

- Blender's Node editor[1], used to create materials and describe post-processing flow.

- DaVinci Resolve Nodes[2], used to create reusable color grading profile (LUT)

[1]: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/2.79/editors/node_editor/...

[2]: https://www.makeuseof.com/nodes-davinci-resolve-beginner-tut...

⬐ Dinux

They seem to be using a lot of Microsoft/Visual Studio tools and some internal testing application.

⬐ wombarly

Basically all AAA games are build using Visual Studio in some way.

⬐ d_meeze

My experience with visual scripting or coding is that it’s hard for more than one person to work on for anything other than a single screen of complexity. No git merge, so serial development. Hard to understand and tweak for anyone except the creator.

⬐ Bayart

That would be the largest video game leak since what, Half Life 2 ? Was there any real AAA source code leak in the meantime ?

⬐ mhh__

Cyberpunk source got leaked IIRC

⬐ themoonisachees

TF2 source code leaked somewhat recently i think. the guy didn't leak the source code (yet) this time though.

Other than that notin gaming i don't think

⬐ alrlroipsp

There was no source code leak here.

⬐ ErneX

Seems there was code too, look at the GTA Forums thread.

And the HL2 gave us a nice delay. So everybody cheering for leaks I hope they are also cool about waiting longer for the finished game.

⬐ alrlroipsp

I read the forums. I see the hacker has source, but he has not leaked the source.

He posted many screenshots proving he has something authentic, tho.

⬐ ErneX

Yes no leak to the public yet but he released 10k lines of code to prove he has code.

⬐ alrlroipsp

I saw a pastebin to a single .cpp file, yes. Thread ended with the guy says he's going to sleep (~ 4 hour ago).

⬐ ndiddy

The hacker is currently trying to blackmail Take 2, will be interesting to see what transpires over the next few days.

https://files.catbox.moe/5hl66u.png

⬐ mepian

Half-Life 2 was not delayed because it was leaked, it was delayed because it was pretty far from being complete. You can read about this in The Final Hours of Half-Life 2.

⬐ wombarly

The GeForce Now leak was pretty big as well, leaked tons of unannounced games.

There was also a leak of one of Ubisoft's games, not sure about source code.

⬐ phatfish

"Part 2" is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ujhGmSImQg

⬐ kgeist

The graphics and animations look somewhat dated, but I assume the footage in question is about figuring out gameplay mechanics and most of the assets are dummy assets quickly put together for the prototype.

⬐ mindcrash

It's already gone. And Rockstar is DMCA'ing these videos faster than you can say "GTA 6", by the way.

⬐ mattymf

Here are some of the leaked videos:

Night club: https://streamable.com/6g87e8 Gun fight debugging(?) session: https://streamable.com/3zw3ed Vice City Metro: https://streamable.com/rx0hed Truck parkour: https://streamable.com/70mre0 Dev adjustments: https://streamable.com/kbp778

⬐ activitypea

I hope that color pallette is not representative of the final game. The washed out gray and light browns don't really scream "vice city" to me.

⬐ drummer

Why is this not on hn front page? This is the bigger than the second coming of christ

⬐ March_f6

I know this is besides the point and maybe I'm just getting older, but the gameplay seems particularly disturbing in way that it didn't 10 years ago. I guess that's to be expected given the nature of art.

⬐ raydiatian

Theory: GTA will become the actual metaverse.

⬐ cm2187

The metaverse will be the graphics of gta combined with the civility of twitter

⬐ raydiatian

As long as it has single player mode

⬐ ok_dad

Even GTA online has single player mode now!

⬐ ok_dad

The civility of Twitter would be an improvement to the civility in GTA online, bud.

⬐ mhh__

Fortnite basically already is a metaverse (i.e. kids meet at the weekend in Fortnite)

⬐ spaceman_2020

To be fair, HN, too is a metaverse of its own

My real name is not really Spaceman, and I don’t really talk like this in the real world all the time.

Every social profile exists in its own little meta space where you might not exactly be who you are irl.

⬐ Technetium

This has been removed from YT, does someone have a mirror?

⬐ mattymf

https://www.reddit.com/r/GTA/comments/xhkc8o/gta_6_a_sorted_...

⬐ beej71

Though I haven't been in the industry for 15+ years, I think this video gives you an excellent idea of the day-to-day life of a game developer.

⬐ mkl95

It's been 9 years and this footage looks like a moderate improvement over GTA V. On the other hand, GTA V was released 9 years after San Andreas and the improvement was huge. Is it tech debt, API complexity, financial hurdles, or something else?

⬐ WastingMyTime89

That looks like early development footages. They are probably still working on both the engine and the assets. What you see as little to do with what it’s going to look like in the end.

⬐ mkl95

The question then shifts to why this hacker is posting some early footage. You would expect the newer stuff to be immediately accessible without searching etc. This is allegedly the same guy who hacked Uber and called them out for underpaying drivers, so maybe he's trying to raise awareness about poor security or something.

⬐ WastingMyTime89

Because GTA 6 is still in the early phase of development?

It wouldn’t be surprising. GTA Online makes so much money, Rockstar probably was in no rush to develop a follow-up game.

⬐ detaro

GTA 6 is likely still years from release, it is still "early" when it comes to graphical polish.

⬐ ErneX

You’d be surprised at the amount of games that “come together” during the last 1-2 years of development.

This is early build stuff, not worth judging it at this point.

⬐ dijit

my anecdotal experience from working on 3 AAA titles indicates that ErneX is spot on.

Most games really don't exist as a playable format until about 1y before release, there are separate gates for features and content; content/UI/Graphics are worked on until about 2 months before release. Nothing before 6 months even looks like the final product in most cases: just a rough outline.

⬐ ok_dad

Yea, I wouldn’t be surprised if the recent GTA5 upgrade on next gen consoles was just a port of the assets to the newest RAGE engine so they could playtest the initial GTA6 missions and gameplay mechanics on it while the next version of the engine is perfected and the assets for fake Miami are developed more.

⬐ libertine

Maybe they aren´t working on some of the visual components, but you can also say they are owning up to that style, as in part of their current gen GTA series.

Like you had a very distinctive visual style on GTA 3, VC and San Andreas - which in part was probably due to hardware limitations, but R* owned it.

So it wouldn´t shock me if it would be something in these lines, to be distinctive yet familiar. Most likely the bigger improvements will be on online gameplay.

⬐ naillo

I'm not sure the lower end but 80% most popular GPUs have gotten that much stronger in the last 9 years, and that's the spec they likely need it to primarily work on.

⬐ tokamak

I agree that it does not look next-gen at all but let's comment when they actually release the game. From what we know this can be ancient build.

⬐ dorkwood

What games do look next-gen?

⬐ tokamak

Games that utilize techniques available on the latest generations of hardware. For example ray-tracing. Ratchet & clank, Returnal, Astro's Playroom. On PC decent example is HL Alyx.

There is a huge expectation towards GTA since Rockstar has a history of being one of the best. The RDR2 was stunning on the previous gen.

⬐ ricardobayes

Seeing how Genshin receives a major update basically every month - the size of each major version update is comparable to a new expansion for WoW -, I wish Chinese game development caught on faster. Having 5k devs/artists etc work on a project does make faster release cycles.

⬐ gillesjacobs

The technical art, textures, models, etc. are definitely not finished. I am 99% that the final product will have many visual improvements over this leaked footage.

⬐ als0

To be fair, the game still seems to be in early stages and the latest gossip suggests a 2025 release date.

⬐ ErneX

You are judging a leak as if it is the final game. If RDR2 is n indication of the quality level of Rockstar GTA VI will be a pretty nice game.

⬐ mkl95

I'm not a judging it as the final game, I'm judging it as something that has been in the works for ~10 years. Even if it were 60% done it would be disappointing.

⬐ that_guy_iain

I just hope this doesn't result in them rushing it out to launch. Rushing games (or any software product) to launch just results in a crappy product that no one wants to use and needs lots of work to make it a product ready to be used.

⬐ chippiewill

Even in an optimistic scenario GTA VI is two years from release. Rockstar won't feel at all pressured to rush something out.

⬐ that_guy_iain

It’s very possible they look to release late next year.

⬐ capableweb

Well, if it's something Rockstar is not famous for, is rushing out releases. GTA V was released in 2013 and they probably started working on GTA VI right at launch if not before that. So rest assure, it doesn't seem rushed.

Besides, most if not every game looks like trash until just ahead of proper launch, that's just the state of game dev.

⬐ that_guy_iain

To be fair, Projekt CD weren't famous for it either but it's becoming a much larger trend and the last release from Rockstar for GTA that I remember was widely considered rushed.

⬐ MichaelCollins

As I recall, Projekt CD had a few sleeper/cult hits, all of which were very buggy, and then a single run-away success. After that single mainstream hit, they promised the Moon for their next release and got bit by the overhype they created.

Rockstar on the other hand has been making consistent hits again and again for years, without overextending themselves.

⬐ capableweb

Projekt CD always had buggy releases, remember how The Witcher 3 was at release?

In comparison, last big release Rockstar had was Red Dead Redemption 2, and I don't think anyone would call that game rushed in any way, it was very polished at launch.

⬐ that_guy_iain

Last release they did was re-releasing the GTA games which was not polished at all. And they were just re-releasing.

⬐ capableweb

I wouldn't call that "a big release" and also, Rockstar was not the developer of that re-release AFAIK, merely the publisher.

⬐ neilv

I'm guessing it might just be current GTA look&feel, not, say, some dramatic jump in realism or mechanics.

I hope GTA Online grows (e.g., the world grows, to include Liberty City), with characters and their stuff carrying over.

⬐ koheripbal

Stories. It needs good stories.

⬐ classified

I wish they made a Mac release again, like in the old days.

⬐ FractalHQ

Bootcamp windows installations on MacBooks run windows (and games) better than any PC I’ve owned.

⬐ Technetium

It's all fun and games until you want to play something that has anticheat…

⬐ xbiitx

cam my m1 macbook air handle gta5

⬐ raihansaputra

I'm really hoping Mac gaming will get better in the next few years. The graphic horsepower is already available, now the limits are for games to be released for Mac and ideally compiled for ARM and implement the Metal graphics API. Unfortunately for now Fortnite is not releasing any new version due to their feud with Apple and CS:GO is still running through Rosetta 2. DotA 2/LoL is already running great AFAIK.

⬐ ricardobeat

As a long time Mac user my advice is to stop hoping. It’s been a decade of promises, and while you can get pretty decent games from the App Store right now, they are not interested in catching up to PC or console any time soon.

⬐ unpopularopp

WoW also has Apple Silicon support from day 1

⬐ raihansaputra

oh yeah WoW not LoL, i remembered wrongly

⬐ yolo3000

Dota 2 running great? Far from it. Maybe it's running ok on the M1s or newer. I play on my macbook but with most graphics set to minimal despite having a dedicated gpu.

⬐ raihansaputra

oh yeah i'm referring to the new M1 chips. older macs didn't do it well for me too.

⬐ sofixa

The Mac gaming market is miniscule, and requires special special care (different arch and APIs) . It's highly unlikely many game developers will choose to spend that time and money.

⬐ raihansaputra

Yeah it's takes some effort. But Source 2 supports it (DotA 2), Fortnite can be built efficiently so Unity can do it. That's 2 major engines available. Not to mention all the iOS games library that's actually able to run on the M1 pending the release configurations from each dev.

⬐ markedathome

Fortnite is built on the Epic Games created Unreal Engine, not Unity.

⬐ raihansaputra

Oh yeah Unreal. That's still a major game engine though. And Unity does support exporting for Apple Silicon/M1

⬐ kybernetyk

I'll only play it when you can enter any building. This was a bummer in GTA V online mode. Only a few buildings were open.

⬐ wan_ala

This article is claiming that Jason Schrier believes its real. https://www.sportskeeda.com/gta/news-renowned-leaker-jason-s...

Edit: forgot to include article

⬐ Insanity

I loved GTA as a teenager, messing around in III or SA with cheats. Spawning random crap and having a huge sandbox to play in.

Guess I did grow out of that, as neither IV nor V managed to keep my interest for more than a few hours.

⬐ esotericsean

I'm 37 and I've put hundreds of hours into IV and V just driving around and having fun. I don't have as much time for it anymore since I'm married with a kid on the way, but I still enjoy the heck out of it.

⬐ Bubble_Pop_22

So is it Miami or LA for the third time in a row?

You can't really see it from the leak.

⬐ Aruchizan

Grand Theft Auto IV was set in Liberty City (New York City).

Grand Theft Auto V was set in San Andreas (Los Angeles).

Grand Theft Auto VI will be set in Vice City (Miami).

⬐ Bubble_Pop_22

Oh snap...GTA 4 literally came and went without noticing. At least for me, I don't think I ever really played it.

I remember Los Santos in GTA San Andreas and Los Santos in V

⬐ kabes

The leak contains some hints it's set in vice city.

⬐ mensetmanusman

I can’t wait for the Galaxy Note 7 mod on GTA6…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_GhODn4FRoE

⬐ samjanis

Video taken down.

Got a lot of attention when it was up.

⬐ midislack

Kyle, the Kenosha Kid, is set to be a villain in this installation! Take THAT lol.

⬐ LinuxBender

Will GTA VI address the massive security issues around the game client and their community databases that exist in GTA V? Will players have to use mod menu's to avoid being crashed, booted, doxxed, insta-killed and their internet connection reset?

⬐ 2OEH8eoCRo0

I remember pissing somebody off so much that they ddosed my friend and I but they didn't have the bandwidth to do both at the same time. Our home internet connections took turns being knocked offline for a few hours.

It's funny how ready some people are to commit federal crimes over a multiplayer game.

⬐ SebastianKra

GTA Online seems to encourage a very unusual kind of contempt. Rage in games is not uncommon, but here it's as if it's the default mode of play.

PvP usually starts out of spite (eg. Player A kills Player B out of boredom) and then turns into pissing matches over who has bought the most expensive toys. The end-game is literally a Microtransaction that instantly kills anyone for 7€ real Money.

⬐ czottmann

Isn't this worthless without the somewhat ham-fisted social commentary of the actual game?

⬐ colinthompson

Please don’t click these links or share these videos. As a member of the film/animation industry, hearing about leaks like this absolutely hits me. Please think of the hundreds of artists and programmers who have worked countless hours on this game. They are all heartbroken right now. We can all honor their hard work by not watching this leaked content. Wait til they finish.

⬐ yieldcrv

what, can you elaborate more on why we should:

1) empathize

2) in that specific way

this is a far cry from my initial thought of “don't tell me what to do” so I’m really curious if you can articulate in a way more of us can relate to

⬐ colinthompson

First and foremost- this content was stolen. You haven’t paid for it. If you saw a stolen car left on the side of the road, would to take it for a joyride?

Secondly, do you think watching these these videos is making anyone at rockstar fired up? Do you think they like this? I believe that almost all of them are deeply saddened by this. Should we celebrate and respect people’s work by making them feel awful?

Lastly I’m not telling anyone what to do. I’m just merely pointing out that this content is not soul-less. It’s built on the backs of people who did not willingly share this material. I think it’s awesome if people are curious, but I think to is incredible disrespectful to execute that curiosity by forcefully stealing something.

⬐ exodust

> If you saw a stolen car left on the side of the road

Relax, it's just a few videos. Not the actual game. It's publicity and won't hurt sales. May even help pre-order sales.

The irony of your analogy is that stealing cars and crime in general is encouraged and celebrated in the game. Watching a few leaked videos of that action is not a moral dilemma.

⬐ yieldcrv

The semantics are more important to me, and it affects my thoughts on your analogies too.

Stealing requires moving something from its original place, like the car. This was copied. It is copyright infringement, at best, and an issue for the person copying for others consumption, not the consumer. Its not the consumers responsibility to know who has a license to avoid infringing a copyright, and it isn't their liability to view. Elaborate marketing stunt or actual leak? Not my responsibility to care. But let me know if you come up with a more applicable analogy, I’m fine with analogies comparing dissimilar things that share something in common, I think this one dilutes your point here and fails at providing any introspective possibility.

I can relate to the idea that someone wanted a grand reveal, I don't have the same feelings as you about them being deprived of that goal. I think there would be plenty of artists in the organization that are annoyed at the direction of the development choices and are elated that the public can criticize it now.

⬐ ok_dad

Why would they be heartbroken? They’ll still get to finish the game. Millions of people will still enjoy it like they did RDR2, GTAV, etc. Personally, I disagree with hacking of this nature, but these days people want to get a sneak preview, so I’m really not sure why the developers would see this as anything other than good, or why they wouldn’t just release previews occasionally so people can see what’s to come. None of this stuff is cutting edge or some sort of industry secret or whatever. I, personally, am more excited for GTAVI than I ever have been now that I’ve seen the amount of depth they seem to be adding to the previous iteration!

⬐ phreeker

k

⬐ None

None

⬐ throwaway102233

no and no. I'm getting mighty sick of this attitude 'pls respect artists! they are all crying right now'.

how come game devs / artists are the only ones that should never have their work seen before they deem it to be 'ready', how many devs in other industries have had to push work to the public before they deem it 'ready'. I personally like having the 'curtain pulled back' so to speak, it's interesting to see the amount of work that goes into making a game / movie / whatever.

⬐ colinthompson

I’d say this is less “pulling back the curtain” and more brazen theft. But go off.

⬐ throwaway102233

If rumors are correct, the leaker has the source code also, but hasn't chosen to release that. I'm pretty sure that releasing the source code would be seen as more of a dick move than just showing a video of some dev tools. I'm pretty sure we've all `stolen` software at some stage in our lives (looking at you Adobe), are we meant to be pearl-clutching over that also?

⬐ xnx

I've exploded plenty of space Marines into red mist at point blank range in Doom, but this direction in realism doesn't feel great. Thinking about the next step in realism and AI NPCs and VR. Hard to see a people spending lots of time consuming this as a net positive.

⬐ qumpis

Why?

⬐ lawxls

Look up GTA V section on twitch. It is constantly in top 5 categories by viewers, some months of the year on par with Just Chatting (Real Life). All of that thanks to Rockstar ability to create realistic world and community Role Play servers.

⬐ TheAceOfHearts

It'll be interesting to see what kind of innovations Rockstar is able to come up with for the next GTA, nothing stands out to me from these development leaks.

The problem with GTA is that it's a fairly shallow game, which limits what kind of immersion you can experience. Imagine if it included more realistic elements like economics and persistent characters. You could decide you have a vendetta against Bob and steal his cheese every time he goes out shopping for groceries. Heck, you could become the cheese kingpin and monopolize access to cheese. Although a more thematic approach would probably have to do with drugs, which doesn't seem like too far of a bridge to jump considering the game genre.

⬐ neilv

GTA V at launch did have stock exchanges you could trade on, and I'd gotten the impression these were going to be a bigger game mechanic in future updates to the game, but then I never heard more. https://gta.fandom.com/wiki/Liberty_City_National_Exchange#C...

The GTA San Andreas gang turfs, with the aggro rival gang members who'd start trouble when you were minding your own business, were one of my favorite parts of the game.

⬐ omnibrain

They broke the game by themselves, because Franklin was intended to be broke, like you expect someone with his background to be, but for some reason (preorder bonus or somehing similar) you immediately receive a huge amount of ingame money after the game starts. Totally breaks the beginning.

That was way better in GTAIV where you constantly struggled for money and only after the big bank job became somewhat flush.

⬐ Animats

As in real life, players could make far more money on the stock exchanges than by street crime. Stocks responded strongly to events in the game world after they occurred, so as soon as you knew something was going down, making the proper investment was a pretty sure win. That broke the game balance.

⬐ kotaKat

They abandoned basically most single-player content if only because GTA:Online was their cash cow.

⬐ raydev

The free money didn't hurt but I don't think GTAV's stagnation was that cynical.

Two or three top people behind GTA left RockStar, and the first heist was delayed by years presumably by technical difficulties.

The lack of updates/progress, for years, implies internal disruption more than anything, and GTA6 development likely started up a couple years ago.

⬐ aaaaaaaaata

Billions of dollars can't be wrong, it was obviously the better game experience! /s

⬐ omnibrain

Yes, even large parts of the map went unused in single player.

And the heists mechanic was seriously underused. Just when you got the hang of it, it was the last heist in the story. I would have paid money for a DLC bringing more heists.

⬐ aaaaaaaaata

> even large parts of the map went unused in single player.

They intentionally wanted to leave space for the player to explore in that release.

> I would have paid money for a DLC bringing more heists.

They had promised this Half-Life 3 style for years....dirtbags!

⬐ Eduard

> The problem with GTA is that it's a fairly shallow game, which limits what kind of immersion you can experience.

What?

⬐ syndacks

Most missions: - get to some location (after a cut scene dialogue) - do the task (with some unique element ie kill the character who was fucking someone’s wife) - return to the original location

⬐ omnibrain

The "get to some location" part was better in GTA IV. Not only was the dialogue more interesting, there were two sets of dialogue for every mission, so if you falied and had to do the "get to location" part again, you got a whole different set of dialogues. But it seems noone ever noticed and there are almost no mentions of it on the internet.

⬐ pdntspa

That was observed in almost every review I read of it at the time.

Doesn't GTA V do the multiple dialogs thing too? I could have sworn it did.

⬐ omnibrain

That's possible that it was discussed back then, but there are only few ressources (like youtube videos comparing the dialogues) nowadays event mentioning that.

I don't think GTA V does that, driving to missions works differently, there is less dialogue on the way and the "check point" is closer to the actual mission and I even tried to provoke different dialogues by failing missions because I wanted to hear alternate dialogue.

⬐ pdntspa

Game journalism was in a vastly different place then than it is now, I would not use modern appearances as indicative of what people thought at the time

For example, most reviews were written in text, not some awful tuber vid

⬐ moron4hire

The missions are the least interesting part of the game. Who even plays the missions for any reason other than just to open the locked portions of the map?

EDIT: Also, your description of the "mission structure" is so vague it could apply to any mission-based game, anywhere.

⬐ rowanG077

I think the mission are the most interesting things in the game. The rest gets boring for me after 30 mins. Precisely because it's so shallow.

⬐ pas

all my GTA knowledge is from GTA II and a few hours with III, but ... okay, so what do you do after the locked parts are no longer locked?

⬐ brnt

Turn on an audiobook, podcasts, music, and drive. Usually begin by going rond the coast.

⬐ moron4hire

screw around, race, jump cars, try to find all the hidden junk.

⬐ pas

> find all the hidden junk

Hm, I loved doing that in platformers (most recently Ori and the Blind Forest), but wouldn't associate achievement hunting with GTA, but I'm clearly not familiar with recent GTA games.

⬐ TingPing

I think the hidden content is very boring in GTA V personally. It's an empty world outside of the main story. It's a real shame all additions were online only.

⬐ ajmurmann

+1 What's described here is what I loved in San Andreas, but it's been going down since.

⬐ Semaphor

GTA 2 (like 1) is a completely different game (one I very much enjoyed) that has very little to do with the latter games.

⬐ DisjointedHunt

Some of my best memories are riding a bike around the environment with the radio on be it in San Andreas or in V, the gameplay and immersion are great for a real life simulation of no rules riding.

⬐ danpalmer

The least interesting part of the game? I've played through GTA V ~2.5 times now, I really enjoy the story missions and finding fun side quests to do. The sandbox side of the game is far less interesting to me as it's unstructured.

Sure it's not the most immersive game, real RPGs are much more so, but it's fun. I'm looking forward to playing through another story, finding more funny side quests, etc.

⬐ moron4hire

I don't think I have ever finished any sandbox environment game. I've played several, hundreds of hours into each. Just... happy with just screwing around, bored with being told what to do.

⬐ danpalmer

It's interesting, I think this is pure opinion. I personally find sandbox games boring and have never put more than an hour or two into one. I feel like there's "nothing to do". This is obviously silly, the point is that there's so much to do, but I think the lack of structure means I have no goals and whenever I try to come up with my own they're often not conducive to fun gameplay. However, when I play a story driven game, or even when I play a sandbox game with good _direction_ (Satisfactory comes to mind), someone else has curated that goal for me in a way that encourages fun gameplay.

This is not to downplay or invalidate the fun you get from sandbox games, they're clearly a very popular genre. I think they just appeal to a different sort of person.

It's nice in a way that GTA has both.

⬐ ajmurmann

1. Get instruction to go to location X

2. Make sure to get my super fast car for the inevitable getaway

3. Drive towards location

4. Cutscene triggers

5. Car has been swapped for totally different junk car used by character

⬐ _fat_santa

GTA can be such a wildly different experience based on how you play. You have regular "Online" that's hosted by Rockstar but you also have FiveM which are a bunch of modded servers mostly meant for roleplay.

I hope that Rockstar took a cue from FiveM and incorporates role play into GTA 6 online. I've played on some FiveM servers and it's pretty incredible, there are full servers doing cops and robbers, with mods for everything from writing tickets to police radio only the ones playing the cops have access to.

Compared to GTA Online, it's a wildly different experience. And I hope Rockstar includes something like that in GTA 6, it would honestly help them not have to make so much content so often, make the game robust enough where players can create their own fun. We know it's possible because FiveM did it, and if those guys can do it, Rockstar should have no trouble.

⬐ chrononaut

I am curious if roleplay servers would self-moderate better if all characters were hardcore. i.e., lose everything and your character if you die, although not if you're arrested.

I wonder if this would even be possible in GTA.

⬐ whatyesaid

Roleplay servers require a lot of human moderation, else it won't be roleplay and it will be trollish and simply like an advanced Cops and Robbers mode. The development isn't the problem. They could make a server listing and make 'FiveM' or 'RageMP' part of the default experience. Although a lot of these servers ask for donations so they may not want to redirect players away from the stuff they sell.

RP goes way back than 5, as a matter of fact there are still active servers for GTA San Andreas Roleplay (SAMP) and of course Arma was popular in the past.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

>Roleplay servers require a lot of human moderation, else it won't be roleplay and it will be trollish

Lets not forget the regular online is just 3 people chasing you around the map on their hover bikes with rocket launchers no matter what server you end up on.

⬐ Stevvo

No, no, no. Roleplay servers do not require human moderation. What all these servers seem to miss is that you should enforce your design objectives through game design rather than moderation and rules. Eve Online is the best example of this; it's what every role-play server aspires to be. Moderation is minimal; the game takes care of all issues that arise long before human moderation has to get involved.

⬐ behaveEc0n00

Constraints on software create human reaction constraints; I can’t react to behavior that never happens

You’re just abstracting “the rules” into “game design”

⬐ bee_rider

Eve Online sort of cheats by being a corporate backstabbing and trade game, the set of actions that the characters might want to take can literally be performed by the players. This seems more like a LARP (just, LARPing as a person using a computer), rather than a conventional videogame where you control an avatar and make it do things. And LARPs are typically a more immersive way of roleplaying.

⬐ petepete

While it won't be to everyone's taste, NakeyJakey has a rather in-depth video about Rockstar's game design and how it falls short in some ways. I loved RDR2 but the missions were definitely the weakest part. Exploring the world was the best bit by a mile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvJPKOLDSos&t=1932s

⬐ V__

Thank you for posting this. I had the same frustrations as him, but couldn't quite articulate why until this video.

⬐ wongarsu

GTA has incredible breadth. There are lots of things to do in a big open world. But everything is also incredibly shallow.

That's more or less what you expect. Resources are finite, and unless you're Tarn Adams you generally chose to make a couple very complex things, or a lot of fairly simple ones. Sometimes you get depth from the interaction of simple things, but GTA rarely does

⬐ ehnto

GTA definitely stands to gain a lot from more systemic gameplay. But I would argue that this is already their tactic, they just haven't got as many systems, and they've culled the possible interactions to make sure they're deliverable gameplay loops are tight, fun and expected.

They are some of the blockbusters of gaming, so I'm not surprised they've gotten a little cautious.

⬐ detaro

I get where they are coming from. It's incredibly easy to break through the facade of the surface polish that is there to suggest "this is a real living city!". In some ways, I found that worse in 5 vs earlier games because the surface polish is so nice. But then you still can't interact with a lot of it, or the interaction is always the same. Most of it is just pretty set-dressing which falls over once you slightly push it. Which given the scale is not surprising, but it still breaks the immersion if you poke it even lightly. You notice the the AI being somewhat shallow, NPCs having nearly no interactions, ...

And even in the fleshed-out parts, the NPCs relevant for missions, that's all very linear and basically only interacted with for missions.

To slightly exaggerate, it's a good interactive action movie, and a very nice sandbox to do stupid shit with vehicles in. (Don't get me wrong, that's a totally fine thing to be! But it leads to tradeoffs that make other parts shallow)

⬐ ethbr0

It feels like anything targeted at consoles (so, all AAA) must sacrifice simulation to performance.

In the PC-first era, "Your machine just isn't fast enough" was a viable position for a developer.

But with fixed console specs, there's no "more" to encourage players to upgrade to.

⬐ tumdum_

When was that „PC-first era”?

⬐ ethbr0

Pre ~2001, when the XBox and GameCube mostly converged on PC-alike hardware, as opposed to bizarrely-different console architectures.

After that, it felt like multiplatform releases on console were "easy enough" that AAA began always targeting them in game design.

Prior to that, AAA PC titles didn't really give a damn about consoles, which only maybe received a some-features-included reimplementation if the game was a hit.

⬐ kinnth

Yeah i'd agree here that GTA is not a shallow game, it's got multiple levels of openworld interactions that you can chose to interact with or not.

What it doesn't have is strict or difficult obstacles that give a perceived difficulty. The game's difficulty hits a plateau quite early on and then it's really an exploration and narrative experience. Which most people prefer. GTA online is a different beast and probably where this one will focus. More live ops and changing / persistent world, more like fortnite's map would be my guess.

⬐ koheripbal

By "shallow", they mean that there is no interesting story line.

I think for our age group, game mechanics and open world are not enough - we want to be told/discover an interesting story.

⬐ mrstone

Honestly such an odd take. The games are all plenty immersive

⬐ fudgefactorfive

This is famously an issue with Rockstar style missions, they are so adherent to a script that even minor Playstyle variations lead to logical deadlocks. Red Dead 2 had the same issue, players finding paths to the door they know stuff is happening behind only for them to literally not function until an NPC points them out to you.

I want a world where I can figure out what to do next and that still functions, not one where Character X has to tell me to move to the next room for the doors to work as doors.

⬐ estebank

You want the original Deus Ex.

⬐ fudgefactorfive

Haven't played it, but admittedly I've seen the Hbomberguy video on it and was really interested. Might take another look.

⬐ ethbr0

Ah, Ion Storm Austin (Deus Ex). And Looking Glass Studios (Thief).

We didn't know how far in the future we were living...

⬐ RicoElectrico

This wasn't always the case. Missions in GTA 3 - GTA SA were much more goal-focused, less scripted. You could approach them as you wanted to.

⬐ omnibrain

Have you ever played Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines?

⬐ fudgefactorfive

I haven't actually but I've heard great things. I admit the setting isn't one I usually pursue, but I'll get over myself and take a look.

⬐ treis

I think it's pretty much all open world games. As wide as the ocean but as deep as a puddle. Outside of the pre-scripted story you have basically no impact on the world as the player.

⬐ prox

This is pretty much what happens to a ton of games. It seems open, but you can’t do any creative solutions because it isn’t part of the design. Not saying it isn’t tough, but a company like Rockstar should have the ability to pull it off.

Just yesterday I learned that in Skyrim, there is a caretaker in the orphanage called Grelod the Kind, who is terrible to the children. So apparently if you are a pacifist, you can put a fear spell on her and she will run out the orphanage and she gets killed by a beggar there. That’s brilliant! It tells a story (beggar must have got her kid in) and it’s another way to solve the problem.

⬐ fudgefactorfive

Exactly, it's worlds that aren't a sequence of stories but a mesh of relationships that seem much more alive.

I can obviously see how it's much harder to make a narrative state machine than a sequence of events with maybe a few branches, but still it's disappointing when huge budgets are spent on visuals alone with no good reason to examine them deeply.

Cough Cyberpunk 2077 Cough.

⬐ capableweb

> It'll be interesting to see what kind of innovations Rockstar is able to come up with for the next GTA, nothing stands out to me from these development leaks.

I just saw the video quickly, without viewing it all. But the added interaction menu (multiple choices, one was "Rob") seems like it'll add a lot of interactivity to the world. AI seems to have much more complex behavior as well, which would add even more "life-like" feel to the game and again, more interactivity.

But, this is a early development build, those could just be prototypes that won't make it into the final game. Certainly a lot of new features are also not shown in the video.

Don't think Rockstar would work and release a GTA that is just a minor improvement on the previous version, they always make leaps when it comes to quality of GTA releases.

⬐ TingPing

You could rob places in every game since San Andreas. It was never interesting.

⬐ aaaaaaaaata

You could point a gun at a person (on street, clerk, etc), and it would trigger a fear response of running, or shitting out some algorithmically decided amount of money.

⬐ capableweb

Yeah, by pointing the gun at them. If you look at the videos again, it seems like looking at a person brings up multiple alternatives, one of them being to rob them, but seemingly there will be other options as well.

⬐ ajmurmann

What you describe is what I've wanted ever since San Andreas which to me was the high point in open gameplay for GTA. Ever since I played that in college while working on a thesis on machine learning I've been fantasizing about building a fully autonomous NPC system that leads to fully emergent behavior from individual to societal level, including the NPCs shaping the world to their needs by constructing dwellings, fields etc. Every character would have skills that adjust based on their behavior, basic maslov needs and would act based on that and utilizer the environment to fill the needs. Between characters relationship values would exist and they can exchange information and have something like gossip. Being dropped into a world with these dynamics as a player would to me be the most fun game imaginable. I always shied away from actually building this because I felt that the route to profit is longer and riskier than your average web app side project and I wanted to use my very limited side project motivation and energy on something serious. Maybe that was a mistake since I'm really passionate about this idea and probably would have put way more time in for this than anything else...

That side, I think GTA has been moving further away from this vision since San Andreas. San Andreas had a ton of stuff to do outside the main missions. GTA IV frustrated me because it kept feeling like player choice was secondary to telling their story. I was so upset when I lost my original apartment when buying a new one. In SA collecting all the houses was a driving motivator for me. And V just got rid of so much in single player to prioritize online which I couldn't care less about.

⬐ NickC25

>* And V just got rid of so much in single player to prioritize online which I couldn't care less about. *

This! I thought GTA V's single player was way too short. I love online gaming, but I never enjoyed the multiplayer GTA - the whole point of GTA to me was exploring a massive map and finding tons of little easter eggs the developers left....well, that and seeing how long I could go with 5 wanted stars and unlimited ammo.

A map as large as GTA: SA, GTA IV or GTA V is much more fun when explored individually, not with 100 other people simultaneously (especially when some of those 100 people are there to troll everyone else and do stupid things that ruin the experience for everyone else).

Shame Rockstar made so much money with GTA Online, to the point where developing it out for over a decade was more worth it to them than building the next GTA. I think the PS4/XBONE console generation was the first generation to not have a GTA title built for it. It's literally just a slight graphical improvement over the PS3/X360 release. Same goes for the PS5/XSX release. Nothing new added.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

> And V just got rid of so much in single player to prioritize online

I couldn't really play V post completing the game, I'm actually convinced it was completely broken and I'm surprised more don't talk about it.

Whenever you respawned the cars that are driving around you would always be the same no matter really where you were and it felt like once they were spawned it struggled to have memory slots to spawn in any others so really all that was available were that 4x4 and a few others. I had a theory that the car spawning seed was derived from the mission state somehow so it was always using the same seed in the post-game and because Online was the priority they never bothered fixing it or noticing.

If you drove around for 15 minutes you started getting more cars in the pool but the cops were so aggressive and psychic the game just wasn't much fun anyway.

⬐ spaceman_2020

I hope its like RDR2, but in a modern city.

For me, RDR2 remains the benchmark for what kind of immersive experience a game can create. Nothing has topped it so far.

⬐ iLoveOncall

I think they overdid it and it did not serve gameplay well.

I played a lot of GTA V but in RDR 2 the character is so slow that moving or interacting with anything is a chore. I stopped playing after 5ish hours and that was the only reason.

Gameplay is more important than immersion.

⬐ wil421

Echo the same about RDR2. The controls were wonky and the character very slow. Not to mention all the times I accidentally did something to piss off the townspeople.

⬐ sergiotapia

I hope it's not. I had to stop playing RDR2 after about 4 hours when I realized what a slog it was to do anything in that game. Even walking was clunky in the name of "realism". Please no more of that.

⬐ thiht

Agree. RDR2 might be the most boring game I’ve ever played.

⬐ holoduke

For me the witcher3. Story telling and immersivity is just great.

⬐ cjf4

I started out thinking RDR2 was immersive, but the theme park ride on rails main plot missions absolutely killed it, and diminished all the cool world stuff they did.

⬐ mhh__

They will add that stuff, i.e. more than they did with RDR2 - it's inevitable.

Unisoft have done it a fair bit with Watch Dogs, don't think anyone cares that much about it really.

The thing that rockstar are really good at is the world-building - Los Santos just feels so authentic, even if an obvious parody: Even the radio voice actors are so well casted that the voice of non stop pop (Cara Delevingne) is allegedly a cokehead in real life too!

⬐ beckman466

> (Cara Delevingne) is allegedly a cokehead

can't believe she doesn't like pepsi. smh

⬐ beckman466

-4 downvotes lol. the joke is that the Grand Theft Auto video game series is itself absurdism/satire. so my point is that coca cola is made with the same substance as cocaine. in other words: it's a consumer-friendly version of cocaine.

and the fact that you are commenting anonymously on the habits and/or appearance of someone you've never met (Cara Delevingne is a model and actor).

both/and

⬐ pdntspa

One of my favorite things to do in Watchdogs 2 is just walk around calling in arrests and assassinations on opposing factions and watching how ridiculous the fireworks get.

⬐ DonHopkins

>Imagine if it included more realistic elements like economics and persistent characters. You could decide you have a vendetta against Bob and steal his cheese every time he goes out shopping for groceries. Heck, you could become the cheese kingpin and monopolize access to cheese. Although a more thematic approach would probably have to do with drugs, which doesn't seem like too far of a bridge to jump considering the game genre.

The fun thing about playing video games is how easy it is to imagine yourself a video game designer who could easily criticize any other game's design and implementation while easily designing and implementing an even more fun more beautiful easier to play game that everyone would want to easily play so much they would easily spend more than enough money on it to easily pay you to quickly and easily implement on time and on budget.

⬐ Waterluvian

I found that added systems, like survival stats, to Red Dead 2 distracted from the incredible story. I think I just want a mature, emotionally deep story from Rockstar games. GTA5 got a bit close, but RDR2 proved they’re fully capable of making a masterpiece story.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

RDR2 didn't have survival stats, you could eat and stuff but it didn't matter and just buffed you.

Personally I'd have preferred it if i I had to eat and had to set up camp for the night. That level of roleplaying really helps the world feel tangible for me.

⬐ bee_rider

The food system in Valheim was the best I've ever seen. It isn't really survival, you don't have to eat to stay alive, but it gives you significant enough buffs that it is basically required for anything past the easiest fights. But your character is basically functional without food (you can walk around your base and do stuff; you won't, like, slowly die).

Too many "realistic" food systems feel like a tedious system to be engaged with just to avoid punishment. This somehow feels more like a reward.

⬐ capableweb

GTA always been "kind of serious but mostly comedy and sarcasm/parody" and RDR always been "This is deadly serious" so the stories will reflect that. I wouldn't assume GTA will have as serious story as RDR2 had.

⬐ Waterluvian

That’s a good point. Perhaps I’m just opining that I wish for a deadly serious game in modern times. Not post apocalypse. Not historical.

⬐ honkdaddy

I'd play that game too. It'd be dark, controversial, and a political minefield, but I think a story-driven FPS set in a civil warring 2030 America would be awesome. The usual stories in CoD or Battlefield of USA military vs insurgents who are vaguely slavic or vaguely middle eastern have gotten stale for me - I'd love to see what game designers think all-American militia battles in NYC or Miami could feel like.

Again, it'd be super controversial and will probably never get made, but I'd play a game like that.

⬐ tyetrask

If you haven’t tried it yet, I think Far Cry 5 fits your desired description fairly well. I only played it for the first time recently despite it coming out several years ago and it was a little “too real” at times.

It has over the top moments (like GTA) but I think the story is compelling and it’s not hard to see the parallels to modern day groups and events.

⬐ inc3pt

If you haven’t tried it yet, I think Far Cry 5 fits your desired description somewhat. I only played it for the first time recently despite it coming out several years ago and it was a little “too real” at times.

It has over the top moments (like GTA) but I think the story is compelling and it’s not hard to see the parallels to modern day groups and events.

⬐ honkdaddy

I haven't really played a Far Cry game since #3 and knew almost nothing about #5. Just did some reading about it and sounds almost exactly like what I was describing up there, hahah. Given I'll be spending at least a few months off work from an injury, playing #5 sounds like the perfect way to spend some winter afternoons. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely give it a shot!

⬐ raydev

You've described exactly what I don't want from GTA.

GTA 4 and 5 were my favorite games. There's enough depth from the story and gameplay for me to have sunk so many hours of my life into them.

I just want better graphics, more pedestrians/NPCs, way more vehicle traffic, and cheat codes to disable the police when I get bored and want to blow stuff up.

⬐ kenjackson

GTA is fairly shallow? IMO it seems like one of the richest experience games I’ve played. It’s shallow in its blatant materialism, but that’s part of the point of the game.

⬐ koheripbal

They mean "shallow" as in there is no interesting story line.

⬐ kodt

GTAV had an interesting story. At least as far as video games are concerned.

⬐ Bayko

Right? It was literally lauded for it's sp story line. Like I wonder if these guys type for the sake of typing...

⬐ phillryu

I interpreted it more about its game design – GTA is about a giant sprawling city come to life as an interactive playground, one way you can think of it is most genres of games are represented within it. (Story game, single player, online semi MMO, anarchy sandbox simulator, life sim, racing, deathmatch shooter, gambling game, sports game, Crazy Taxi, flying, etc.) But that also means fans of those individual genres looking mainly for that specific experience within it will be disappointed by the lack of depth or richness compared to games that focus purely on that one genre vs all at once. That said this is probably the most expensive game ever made, so they are also able to invest surprising depth into each of these 'genres' despite it all. And I guess that is one reason why GTA V (previous in the series) has sold something like 150 million copies – it's a very different game to many groups of these customers but still satisfying.

⬐ MichaelCollins

Compared to San Andreas, GTA V's single player RPG elements were about as deep as a puddle. I've heard RDR2 was much better in this regard though, so maybe there is hope for GTA VI.

⬐ crazygringo

GTA isn't where you go to for innovations -- its DNA is pretty set in stone, and judging from its economic success, it's DNA is great.

Presumably it's just going to be another (revisited) location, better graphics/animation/AI, stories are getting more complex, even bigger maps with even more side missions and discoveries, and probably another leap in terms in realism of NPC's -- much like RDR2 lets you have (elementary) conversations with virtually everyone, and NPC's follow much more realistic entire "paths" and activities during the day.

GTA has always been about unparalleled breadth, not depth. Deep and narrow is the DNA of other different types of games. And nobody has the resources to to deep and broad. GTA's breadth and shallowness is its defining feature, not its problem.

⬐ fibonacc

Perhaps people have been seeking a more generational leap but from the footage you are correct, they just iterated on top of what worked, and likely have thousands of hours of insight into what sells.

I was hoping that they would at least upgrade the graphic side of the things, it does seem like from this video, that it could easily be just another DLC.

Think after I saw that Matrix demo from Unreal Engine, that trend would carry on into city roaming sandbox games.

Still can't wait to pick up this game in 2 to 3 years when all the bugs are fixed and they have a discount.

⬐ kennywinker

With Moore's law over, I wouldn't expect huge leaps and bounds in graphics again any time soon. Expect incremental improvement, and honing in on the details that matter to immersion. I for one find graphics "good enough" for the most part, and I'd would rather the budget go into NPC AI, character movement, and storytelling.

⬐ oefnak

Why would you think Moore's law is over?

⬐ kennywinker

Because people in the know have been saying it’s dead for a while. E.g.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2016/05/13/245938/moores-la...

https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/moores-law-is-dead-nvidi...

⬐ sebzim4500

Moore's law has been 'over' for ages, it hasn't stopped video games graphics improving substantially between console generations.

⬐ kennywinker

Ages? I think it was about 2016 when people started credibly saying it’s over. So, that’s 8 years ago, which is about how long i think it took for the high end to trickle down to affordable. The graphics difference between a ps4 and a ps5 are… noticeable, but not shocking, and they were released in 2013 and 2020 respectively.

⬐ ecuaflo

kenny living in 2024

⬐ kennywinker

lol, good point. 6 years.

⬐ sigmoid10

Graphics between an end-of-life and a new next-gen console are a bad comparison. Late PS3 and early PS4 games also saw only small improvements. But compare early PS3 to late PS4 titles and the differences are staggering. The PS5 has about an order of magnitude more processing power than the base PS4 and Moore's law states that computing power doubles every two years, which means it gains an order of magnitude every 6 or 7 years - which is precisely the time frame between the PS4 and PS5 release. Moore's law definitely isn't dead and the new console generation proves it.

⬐ bzzzt

It's not only about calculation speed; the cost of building an AAA class game has exploded over the last 10 years. Maybe you can render 10x as much stuff on screen, but somebody has to actually draw and integrate that in the game. Also, the cost of the needed artwork seems to put game design on the back burner since taking risk is no longer an option. (just like modern Hollywood movies seem to be bland)

⬐ kennywinker

> The PS5 has about an order of magnitude more processing power than the base PS4 and Moore's law states that computing power doubles every two years, which means it gains an order of magnitude every 6 or 7 years

That's not what moore's law is. Moore's law says that TRANSISTOR COUNT will double every 2 years.

> Moore's law is the observation that the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

Back to the ps4 and ps5:

> Each of the PS5’s CUs has roughly 60 percent more transistors

- https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/ps4-vs-ps5/

From the same page, the original PS4 had 18 CUs, the PS5 has 36 CUs.

So if the PS4's transistor count is (n x 18), the PS5's transistor count is (n x 38 x 1/0.6) = (n x 63.3333) - which is only 3.5x

If moore's law had held you'd expect a multiple of 8 or 16, not 3.5.

Moore's law is dead, and the new console generation proves it.

⬐ sigmoid10

First off, your calculation is wrong because these chips are not the same size. Secondly, if you actually go with the definition of Moore's law, my argument still holds - and it's trivial to prove. From your linked article:

>Moore's law [states] the number of transistors that could be housed in a dense integrated circuit [doubles every X]

(emphasis mine)

The PS4 GPU was a 28nm chip and PS5's is a 7nm one. A factor four reduction in length between transistor terminals equates to a factor of 16 increase in transistors that could be housed in one unit of area. That's precisely what you'd have expected from your definition of Moore's law. In reality there's a bit more to it, like efficiency and power consumption (Moore included that in his original estimate), which slightly lessen whole deal of increasing compute power. But as stated in my first comment, it still holds as an OOM increase when you look at raw FLOPs in the end, which is what we expected.