HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Came here to post this :D

The TC channel is definitely a hacker's eye view in to all the technologies that we take for granted every day. Tons of fascinating tech history covered, too.

Other fun ones:

- a defense of the simple drip coffee maker https://youtu.be/Sp9H0MO-qS8

- why do the turn signals not sync up when you're at a stop light? https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk

- how humidifiers work and ehy the simple swamp cooler style are pretty ideal https://youtu.be/oHeehYYgl28

- why dishwasher detergent packs are stupid (use powder/liquid) and why you should use the pre-wash slot and not bother pre rinsing your plates https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

- why do light switches click? https://youtu.be/jrMiqEkSk48

⬐ oezi

> - why dishwasher detergent packs are stupid (use powder/liquid)

? I thought that powder and liquid for dishwashers have come out worse on any consumer reports test (at least here in Germany).

⬐ WastingMyTime89

Most dishwashers are designed to do a pre-wash, change the water, then do a wash. Pre-wash requires detergent to work optimally, ideally one specifically designed for pre-washing. Even dishwashers which have no pre-wash detergent dispenser will typically tell you to add some detergent directly on the door in the instruction manual. Most packs are suboptimal for that. Technically they should be used in addition to pre-wash detergent but that kind of defeats the point of using a pack.

⬐ Scoundreller

Best advice I learned from that channel was to run the sink faucet until it’s hot. Then run the dishwasher so it starts its cycle with actually hot water.

⬐ blacksmith_tb

Hmm, dishwashers I have had (including my current one) have a large heating element in the bottom, I would have thought that could heat the relatively small volume of water in there pretty quickly?

⬐ zo1

Most (actually all) dishwashers that I've encountered are designed to not get hot water coming in. Where I live a high-pressure hot-water outlet is not the norm at all. And yet, we don't have a catastrophic country-wide problem with dirty dishes. I'd argue that something else it at play.

⬐ Scoundreller

Not on this continent. But obviously the advice can be ignored if your dishwasher isn't connected to hot water.

The reason for your setup is probably 240V electricity that is affordable enough to resort to resistive heating.

⬐ oezi

A good dishwasher (based on testing) will never need some manual tinkering like this.

⬐ oezi

Packs should be put in the dispenser so they don't act during prewash.

⬐ mschild

Detergent packs in the US seem to be mostly gel packs. In Germany, most tabs are simply hard pressed powder. Gel packs did fail in their cleaning function and the recommendation generally goes for either tabs or powder, where powder can save you money because you set the dosage according to how full your dishwasher is.

⬐ lupire

Fine tuning powder per wash sounds like overoptimization. Just useing powder instead of tabs will save most of the money.

⬐ Scoundreller

But I save time by pouring in less when less is needed.

⬐ oezi

Prepackaged tabs with self-disolving packaging is actually the cheapest if you assign a non-zero amount of money to your own time.

⬐ kortex

How much extra time does it take to dump out some powder? I don't actually measure precisely and just eyeball it. The advantage is I can dump some extra in the bay to act as pre-wash. The cost is 4-10x more for the self-dissolving packs.

⬐ sokoloff

I looked on Amazon at Cascade powder ($0.22/oz in large packages) and the same name tablets ($0.30/tablet in large packages).

A load with powder is typically 0.75 oz. ($0.165/load) or about 55% the cost, not 10-25% the cost.

Being able to dump in extra for pre-wash is an advantage to powder for sure.

⬐ pottertheotter

I take his stuff with a grain of salt because I found the dishwasher detergent recommendation to be a bad idea.

A while before the TC video came out, I had an appliance repair person working on my fridge and asked him what he thought the best detergent was and he said use powdered, not the packs. So we switched to that.

Not long after our dishes were never getting cleaned. I thought it was a problem with the dishwasher so I took apart the filter, cleaned all the sprayers, etc. but nothing worked. Was thinking we needed a new dishwasher until one day we ran out of powdered detergent but had a couple packs left over so my wife used one.

Bingo! Our dishes came out PERFECT. We haven’t had a single problem since.

⬐ lupire

When you used powder, did you add detergent to the prewash cycle?

TC did make an apology video after the first detergent video.

⬐ pottertheotter

I usually put some in the prewash area.

⬐ cromka

Quite the contrary for me. I suppose your powder detergent might be of lower quality than the packs one, or is not as concentrated and you need to use more of it?

⬐ pottertheotter

I used Cascade Complete powder and Cascade Platinum packs.

⬐ desmosxxx

Did you get the powder from Amazon perhaps? I'm pretty sure we got fake detergent on Amazon before and it caused our dishes to not clean properly.

Also if you have a water softener you should typically use less powder.

We definitely get a better wash using the right amount of powder, but had to adjust the levels ourselves.

Powder should be better, but dishwashers can be weird, so whatever works best.

⬐ cromka

I, too, had to adjust the amount of powder. Roughly 1/2 of recommended dose goes onto tray, and an additional 1/5 directly into the washer for prewash cycle.

⬐ BoiledCabbage

Did you change brands or types when you switched to powder?

⬐ pottertheotter

I used Cascade Platinum packs before and after trying powder. When using powder I primarily used Cascade Complete (there was a short time early in the pandemic when I had to grab whatever was available on the shelf).

⬐ smhg

I tried the 'add detergent to the pre-wash-cycle' part. While it seems to make sense, it also caused a lot more rust spots on cutlery. The detergent is just too aggressive that way.

⬐ alliao

the goal is to use the cheapest not the most expensive... my miele tablets were destroying my duralex picardie big time, so I now use the cheapest powder and if I feel like the stainless steel don't shine bright enough (maybe once a month) then I use one miele tablet...

⬐ _xerces_

The packs are just powder pressed into a cube with some colorful liquid added to a little pocket to make it look high tech.

⬐ kortex

What kind of powder are you using? Some really cheap powders are basically just sodium carbonate and silicate, with some enzymes, and no actual detergents. These won't work well if your load is "too clean", as it needs some grease to saponify in order to generate detergent.

The medium/high quality stuff contains more/better detergents, water conditioners, and sometimes rinse aids. The packs are just powder formulations pressed into a pellet.

⬐ pottertheotter

I mostly used Cascade Complete powder (there was a point early in the pandemic when I had to grab whatever was on the shelf) and use Cascade Platinum packs.

A couple months back we ran out of packs and had some powder leftover, so I ran a load with the powder. I ended up having to run the load again once we got the packs.

I will never buy tablets or those little bags after watching Technology Connections https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Are you perhaps using tabs? Dishwashers need detergent in the rinse cycle, otherwise they don't rinse well, and tabs don't let you do that. I've had friends who have always pre-rinsed because of wrong dishwasher use. Once they switched to powder and put some in the rinse cycle their dishes don't need pre-rinsing.

See https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

⬐ dkurth

Thank you, I will definitely watch this. We have tried pre-wash detergent, tabs, liquid soap, powder detergents, in various combinations.

There may be something unusual wrong with our dishwasher. Although we clean its filter regularly, sometimes a kind of brown slime forms along the walls and around the filter, and I have to give it a deeper cleaning. Bosch had no idea what this was! I'm curious if anyone else has experienced something like that.

⬐ finnh

whoa. sounds like your drainage might be at fault. i have never heard of anything like this. I'm not a plumber, or anything related, but dishwashers should not have slime and should not need cleaning. yikes.

⬐ ac29

That almost sounds like your washer isnt using hot water. It would explain the poor cleaning performance and the weird growth in the filter.

Are you using pre-wash detergent? My parents struggled with pampering their washer for 20 years, turns out a spoonful of detergent in the body of the washer gets the same performance as all the pre-rinse etc etc.

Video on the subject: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

⬐ dkurth

Thank you! Another comment recommends the same video, so I will certainly check it out.

I stopped using the default "eco" program and switched to the faster "auto" program on my dishwasher since watching this video on how these programs actually work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

TLDwatch: eco programs use only one batch of water, others use two and that results in cleaner dishes with the added benefit of a faster program.

⬐ morsch

That's going to depend on your dishwasher. Our dishwasher does a prewash even in eco mode. But the water won't get as hot (to save power) and it takes longer. On the other hand, the 30 minute mode only does the one main wash. Check your manual.

⬐ llarsson

I am secretly convinced they have "eco" programs just to get the A+++ rating on energy efficiency, but that you're not really meant to use those modes.

⬐ ars

That's not a secret, that's exactly why they do it.

I feel like I read that in the manual that comes with my dishwasher. It was worded a bit differently, but it essentially said to use auto mode to get cleaner dishes, not eco which saves money but doesn't clean as well.

I love this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04&t=0s

Dishwasher pods are heavily marketed in the US and actually wash more poorly compared to plain powder. With pods the pre-wash ends up running without detergent, so rinsing off dishes becomes necessary.

⬐ Wowfunhappy

Consumer Reports disagrees. Not all dishwasher pods rank better, but pods consistently make up the vast majority of their top picks, or they have at all of the times I’ve been subscribed.

(I usually buy a month of access every couple of years or so. Mostly to see the updated dishwasher detergent reviews tbqh.)

⬐ elpatoisthebest

I wonder if Consumer Reports has done this test since they tweeted this response and compared the pods to detergent using the pre wash dispenser.

https://twitter.com/ConsumerReports/status/13410672702195916...

> Doesn't even need special tablets […]

A thirty minute video explaining why tablets are bad and that you should simply use powder:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Also, a follow-up video:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU

⬐ aqme28

I only watched the first video, but I really can't see the difference between his experiment (with the soap at the beginning) and his control. I'm not convinced.

⬐ preommr

Did you just skip to it or did you watch it with audio and pay attention to what he's saying?

Becaue he mentions that the difference might not be super obvious but still makes a pretty good case for it.

⬐ aqme28

I watched the whole thing.

If your theory isn't borne out by experiment, you should probably revise the theory or the experiment before publishing your video.

⬐ nokya

Why don't you just come to the point?

⬐ cush

He addresses your concerns in the 2nd video. But aside from that, logically, you should be convinced by the fact that using tablets results in there being no soap soap in the first wash cycle.

⬐ amelius

Summary? I can't watch video now.

⬐ yonig

TLDW Tablets aren’t bad but if you don’t fill your prewash compartment with detergent you’ll get worse cleaning. The prewash compartments are meant for loose powder or gel so might as well just use that detergent for both compartments

⬐ adhesive_wombat

What are people washing that it doesn't wash off?! Or maybe it's just cheap machines that are that sensitive?

The only time things ever come out dirty for me is when the rotor is obstructed and half the dishes don't get any water (or detergent) on them, and that's on eco mode.

⬐ YourCupOTea

The tablets have nothing fancy in them other than some dyes, they are just soap at a mark-up. Even the cheapy store brand stuff does just as good of a job.

Additionally, depending on the hardness of your water you may need less detergent than the tablets have in them which could leave a white residue on your dishes.

Finally, with the powdered detergent you may need to sprinkle a little in the door for a pre-rinse which you can't due with the pods. Check your washer instructions.

P.S. Never use liquid detergents.

⬐ anon7725

> P.S. Never use liquid detergents.

Why not? I’ve switched from tablets to liquid detergent and it’s working out well.

⬐ YourCupOTea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&t=1584s He doesn't like them in the follow-up video. Powders can have both enzymes and bleach unlike gels.

⬐ jerome-jh

Since first lockdown in my country, when dishwasher tabs went missing in stores, I got used to use 1/2 a tab for each wash. Turns out dishes were just as clean as with a full tab. To this day I keep using 1/2 tab per wash.

⬐ hdjjhhvvhga

To push your example even further, I once forgot to load anything and Imagine my surprise when I opened the dishwasher and everything was really clean, maybe except one plate.

⬐ solarmist

Also dishwasher design hasn't improved in 100 years, so as long as it's working any dishwasher is as good as the others.

⬐ renewiltord

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=_rBO8neWw04&t=538

The video pretty much says “use detergent in both pre-wash and wash receptacles”. Using the pods makes this hard. Using powder lets you do this easily yourself.

That’s pretty much it.

⬐ amelius

Aren't there tablets made of two layers, one which dissolves during prewash, and the other mostly during wash? I mean the two-colored ones.

⬐ whoisburbansky

He tests those as well, finds that they don’t actually do a staged release like that.

⬐ cush

No, the dishwasher dispenses the entire tablet during main wash only. Which is exactly why if you use tablets the pre wash won’t have any soap

⬐ henrikeh

At least not in the ones tested in the video.

Also, the prewash happens in a cycle, where the soap holder isn’t opened.

⬐ raldi

The door the tablet’s in doesn’t open until after the prewash.

⬐ koala_man

I always ran my dishwasher on the three hour power wash program because nothing would get clean otherwise. Then I watched this video and started using powder. Now the normal program works fine every time.

This[0] and this[1] are the ultimate dishwasher talks. From what I gather, European dishwashers heat the water, while American do not.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU

⬐ dpark

I am definitely not willing to watch over an hour of chatting about dishwashers right now. :) is there somewhere specific he discusses this? I didn’t see a relevant chapter marker on the second video and none were present on the first.

A quick search indicates that most (all?) dishwashers have a heater to bring the water up to the necessary level. But also that you should give them the hottest water you can from your plumbing for efficiency.

I don't have any issues putting dirty dishes in my dishwasher. Do you use pre-wash detergent in your machine? I highly recommend you watch this video by Technology connections[1], I too used to think I had to rinse my dishes before putting them in the machine.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Don't use detergent pods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ nemo44x

Super informative! Saying that I use pods and my dishes come out perfect. Might be because we do them daily so nothing is ever too crusted on.

⬐ Karunamon

tl;dw (but you really should watch this):

- Don't use pods

- Fill the main and prewash cups every time. The prewash is intended to be used every time, not just when the dishes are exceptionally dirty.

- Run the hot water in the attached sink to full heat to ensure the washer gets filled with hot water

⬐ EricE

Until we use the last of the pods up I've found if you put a squirt or two of Dawn Powerwash in for the prewash it works amazingly well. And before the inevitable comments come up: unlike regular dish soap (do NOT put in a dishwasher) it doesn't suds up either. Yeah, it does a little at first but by the end of the prewash cycle the foam is gone - yes, I have checked.

As an aside: Dawn Powerwash is flat out amazing in general, especially for really crusty/baked on stuff. Spray some on, come back in 15 minutes and it will more than likely wipe right off - if it hasn't dissolved whatever was crusted on and ran off already. If you haven't tried it and it's available in your area give it a try! Amazing degreaser. Works on laundry with grease stains, carpet, oil stains on the driveway (mop up with kitty litter/towels; don't wash down the street!) and all kinds of other non-kitchen uses too.

⬐ EricE

Yup - the amount of excess detergent alone that is being washed into the wastewater systems is staggering when you think about how much is extra detergent in fixed size pods is wasted across the board.

My parents had a GE dishwasher that auto dosed a liquid paste dishwashing detergent. It worked great, only dispensing what the dishwasher sensed the dirt load called for. For some reason my mom hated it and they replaced that dishwasher with one that they now use pods with. Sigh - I don't think she liked the feeling of not being in control.

We humans can be so annoying sometimes.

EDIT: that GE also did it without requiring a wifi connection or firmware updates :p

here is the problem statement:

1. Get a technology proven to have solved a given problem more than 100 years ago.

2. Throw ICs on top of it.

3. Put “smart” into marketing materials.

4. …

5. Profit

There is nothing in any dishwasher[0], fridge, vacuum cleaner, washing machine, ${you_name_the_home_appliance} that would require to be smarter than they are without those (actually far from smart) hardware and software that is being installed and imposed on customers. If combined with the planned obsolescence[1] it creates a perfect combo.

[0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909365

⬐ denton-scratch

> imposed on customers

They are imposed, because dumb equipment is getting harder to find. You can't buy a dumb TV any more. It'll soon be the same with dishwashers and washing machines.

Incidentally, I don't want a smart machine with a 90's mode; that gives you all the complexity and unreliability of a smart machine.

I've heard that industrial-grade clothes washers are reliable. My toaster is a Dualit, and has no electronics - the timer is clockwork. This is industrial-grade - it's pitched at people running a bar or cafe (and priced accordingly). No planned obsolescence, and it's held together with screws - it's eminently repairable, and spares are available.

I'm prepared to pay for stuff that is un-smart.

⬐ acuozzo

> You can't buy a dumb TV any more.

FWIW, you can.

New dumb TVs are marketed as "digital signage" and sold to businesses at a much higher price point.

⬐ denton-scratch

I just skimmed for some LG "digital signage": it's not obvious to me that these things actually contain a TV receiver. If it lacks a TV receiver, it doesn't really qualify as a dumb TV.

This one comes with Windows 10; that's not quite what I mean by "dumb". It appears to really be a "smart" non-TV.

https://www.lg.com/uk/business/digital-signage/lg-55ct5wj-b

Sadly, I don't think dishwashers will last 20 years any more. Since 2005, I'm on my third dishwasher. The first one lasted 9 years, the second one around 5 (with one under warranty repair).

At some point the repairs/parts cost more than what the original dishwasher is worth.

Regarding the algorithm, I'm not sure they make a huge difference anyways. FWIW, The Technology Connections channel on YouTube has a couple of pretty interesting videos on how dishwashers work and how to get the most out of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU

⬐ OtomotO

Money isn't of real relevance to me, so if it costs more I don't really care unless it's a ridiculous difference

An update to cope better with people using detergent pods of using the detergent dispenser? This excellent video [1] explains why pods do not work well and also explains a lot about how dishwashers work that I definitely did not know.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ samstave

Cant believe I watched the whole thing.

I love vids like this - as its a good thing to have an understanding of how all things around you work.

Also, There are two ltypes of dishwasher owners: Those who pre-rinse things that fgo in and those who dont.

I ALWAYS pre-rinse everything. there are times when I use the dishwasher as a dish-rack and wash things by hand and just put them into the open dish-washer to dry... I prefer this to having anything on the counters.

---

I have a set of LG washer/dryer which are wifi capable...

I have yet to find a reason to connect them, even though I have a wifi extender node plugged into the same power as the washer.

I do have "smart" lightbulbs in every socket in the house and can control them all with alexa and/or the Feit app...

I use it all the time, and like to be able to set every single light in the house to whatever color I want. So Ill often set the lights to "Firebrick" which is the most calming at night.

https://www.smarthomeexplained.com/alexa-smart-light-color-n...

and I like to say "Alexa set all lights to firebrick" and every single bulb in the house and porch turn red....

But I guess Ill have to connect the washer and drier to wifi and see what added value I might find there...

FYI this is also a great vid by that guy on power plugs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udNXMAflbU8

Putting soap in the pre-rinse container makes a big difference too, but hardly anyone does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ ddingus

Great video! I always did add some in the pre-rinse container. That video solved a long running family debate on the merits of that.

Check out these two interesting videos from Technology Connections on the subject:

https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

https://youtu.be/Ll6-eGDpimU

Good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

TLDW: Stop using detergent packs, start using the pre-wash bin.

⬐ FredPret

I saw this but had a huge box of soap packs. So I started putting one in the prewash thingy and two more soap packs in the main section.

Now it cleans shockingly well.

This is a followup to "Detergent packs are kinda wishy-washy (Dishwashers Explained)", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Posted to HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25497953 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25491249

So one thing that really surprised me is the little pocket on the soap tray. I started adding some liquid soap there as part of the loading and saw a big improvement on cleaning result.

The idea is during the first pre cleaning cycle the soap will start working so you add the detergent on dish time.

https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

Somewhat related: if you want to watch a 32 minute video about how to properly use a dishwasher, here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ teh_klev

Alec is a truly amazing obsessed individual, I love his videos. His recent adventures into how oil fueled lamps is tremendous, no detail left behind.

⬐ joegahona

I love this video. The one part that didn't seem to work for me is the "don't pre-rinse your dishes" part -- perhaps my dishwasher's fault, but I was really disappointed when, after several washes and varying degrees of gook on plates and bowls, stuff was still coming out dirty. I quick pre-rinse works best for me and my dishwasher, combined with the other tips in his video.

⬐ wpearse

Yeah. We stopped giving the dirty dishes a quick rinse and scrub after watching that video and all that happened is the dishdrawer drain blocked and the kitchen flooded. (First time ever.)

We’re back to giving the dishes a quick rinse and scrub before they go in the dishwasher.

⬐ InvertedRhodium

While you don't need to pre rinse the dishes, you should at least probably scrape any leftover food off of them. I don't think I've ever had a load of dishes with enough physical matter on them to actually block a drain, and I've never pre rinsed.

⬐ yencabulator

It really depends on your dishwasher. I recently upgraded an old dishwasher to a Bosch 500, stopped pre-rinsing, and the end result is better than what the old one could do with pre-rinsing.

⬐ mynegation

That runs contrary to my experience as well. Fats, syrups, and greens - you don’t necessarily have to rinse and scrub but try to leave some starchy sticky rice or eggs to dry on the plate and that stuff may not come off, it will be dried and cemented even further.

⬐ fbrchps

One of my favorite parts of that video is how he goes into how stupid an idea those "Tide Pods but for dishwashers" are. They don't do nearly as good of a job cleaning in my experience, and missing the whole pre-rinse is likely a large part of why.

Now, getting family/friends to stop using them has proven to be a challenge, because Alec can have quite the dry video format for those who are being told to "stop doing a thing you deem convenient, and watch this 32 minute video to see why".

⬐ LeifCarrotson

Alec is a master at turning a three sentence concept into a 6,000 word exposition. I'm glad he's found success and seems to be enjoying Youtube, but I feel he missed his calling in academia.

Obligatory Calvin and Hobbes:

https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/02/11

> Want to see my book report? "The Dynamics of Interbeing and Monological Imperatives in Dick and Jane: A Study in Psychic Transrelational Gender Modes." Academia, here I come!

⬐ stronglikedan

Ever since I watched that a few months back, I run the tap go get the hot water closer to the washer for the first cycle (as recommended in the vid), and I do notice a difference. So much so, that I've completely eschewed the pre-rinse (also recommended in the vid).

⬐ 542354234235

I take the opportunity to wash all the hand wash items with the water I am running to get to the hot water for the dishwasher. The water is nice and hot for the final rinse of the hand wash things, and to then start the dishwasher.

⬐ bserge

Beware, some dishwashers will throw an error or work improperly if the temperature doesn't match what it should be at certain points in the cycle. Same for some washing machines.

⬐ iainmerrick

This must be a country-specific thing. Almost all dishwashers in Europe use a cold water feed only, so running the hot tap won’t make any difference.

(Source: bought a new one a couple of years ago! I assumed a hot water feed would be more efficient, but very few models had it and they weren’t necessarily cheaper to run. Thinking about it, an electric heater inside the washer that heats exactly the amount needed is going to be way more efficient than getting hot water at a random temperature from a gas combi boiler.)

⬐ baq

Mine says using hot water will work but only do it if you have a renewable source of heat. Otherwise, it’s more efficient to just heat up those few liters.

⬐ bonestamp2

> Almost all dishwashers in Europe use a cold water feed only, so running the hot tap won’t make any difference.

Ya, I think the same is true in America. Most residential hot water tanks do not produce potable water. So, it wouldn't make sense to rinse your clean dishes with water that may contain bacteria and spores. Of course, you don't want to rinse hot glass with cold water either (potential breakage), so now you have to heat the water. So, you may as well just have cold water as the only source and heat it.

It's the same reason coffee machines tell you to fill them with cold water -- it has nothing to do with the temperature of the water, it's all about the potability of the water.

⬐ spookthesunset

> Most residential hot water tanks do not produce potable water.

As a consumer of residential hot water tanks for 40+ years, this is news to me. How is the water in a residential hot water tank not potable?

⬐ manwe150

I’ve heard: Higher levels of dissolved minerals, which might be harmful, and a low chance of being a breeding ground for brain-eating microbes, which will be harmful.

⬐ iainmerrick

I think it’s specifically Legionnaire’s disease / legionella. Hot water tanks should periodically be heated over 50C to kill off the bacteria. See e.g. https://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/hot-and-cold-water-stora...

⬐ bonestamp2

It was a surprise to me when I first read it about 10 years ago too. I'm having trouble finding the source for the (potential) bacteria breeding problem. But, I did find an EPA document warning not to do it for another reason:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2015-09/documents/20...

⬐ jitl

This video changed my life, and my parents lives. They always struggled with under-cleaning and pre-washed everything. Once they started using a little bit of detergent in the pre-wash, everything comes out clean with just the suggested scape off of solids. Pre-wash detergent is critical!

⬐ aynyc

Wait, wtf is a pre-wash detergent? And why I have never heard of it?

⬐ Forge36

It's normal detergent, placed in a space where the pre-wash water cycle can use it.

⬐ aynyc

Regular Dawn detergent or "dishwasher" detergent?

⬐ jffry

Dishwasher detergent only (i.e., stuff specifically marketed as for going into dishwashing machines)

Absolutely don't put dish soap like Dawn into your dishwasher - it will foam up, shoot out of the dishwasher, and absolutely wreck your dishwasher and surrounding kitchen with foam.

If you're curious what this mishap would look like, check out this image search: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=put+dish+soap+in+dishwasher&t=ffab...

⬐ svachalek

Normal dishwasher detergent. Never put dish soap like Dawn in a dishwasher, I've seen at least 3 kitchens flooded as a result of people not knowing this.

⬐ Retric

It does works in a pinch, just use about 3-5% as much as normal and skip the drying phase to rerun.

A related issue is people just use way to much detergents in general, presumably because commercials show people using excessive quantities. Plop Plop Fiz Fiz for example just about doubled Alka-Seltzer’s sales.

⬐ whoisburbansky

It's no different from normal wash detergent, it's just normal dishwasher detergent put into the pre-wash slot of your washer. The video goes into more detail, but it basically ensures that the first rinse cycle that the washer does still has soapy water.

⬐ blacksmith_tb

Or given that it is just dumped out of that slot (assuming you have one) when you shut the door, I'd say you could just toss a couple of spoonfuls of detergent into the bottom of the washer.

⬐ delecti

He actually mentions that in the video as well.

⬐ Scoundreller

I just recommend being a spilly pourer of detergent.

Save time and get better results through haste and sloppiness.

⬐ IronWolve

I stopped using pods/packs/powerballs types and pre-scrubbing after this video. I thought cheaper liquids just didn't work, because I wasn't filling the pre-wash. I tried cheaper store brand liquid detergent with pre-wash, and with pre-wash gels work great.

Right now, I'm using Cascade Gel, really happy for the price and amount. 6 bux. It's the same price as generics if you don't buy it on amazon.

TIL, use the pre-fill

⬐ beenBoutIT

With dishwashing detergent liquids are superior. Liquid detergent often contains varying amounts of KOH which is about as good as it gets in terms of cleaning power that won't also destroy dishes(NaOH). They can't put KOH in dry detergent so it's made with less effective chemicals that are better at staying in a powdered form without clumping.

⬐ dmhmr

I knew what this video was before I clicked. I love his content that gets into this type of focus. His Coleman Lantern videos were great too.

⬐ pavel_lishin

Ah, another Dietz nut!

⬐ zeroonetwothree

I don’t follow this advice at all and my dishes always come out perfectly clean. So it seems totally arbitrary to me. Or at least depends on which dishwasher you have.

⬐ romanhn

Watched the whole thing, got really excited (as I always pre-rinse) and then discovered that my dishwasher doesn't have a pre-wash basin. More research is needed, I suppose, to convince me to move away from rinsing (which I would love, but have not been impressed with unrinsed results thus far).

UPDATE: So I just went and read through my dishwasher's manual. Turns out there is a place to dump some detergent for pre-wash after all! Instead of living next to the main basin, it's built into the exterior of the dispenser latch itself. Really, just a little concave area that allows detergent to just fall out when you close the door and get used in the first cycle. Will be experimenting with this!

⬐ DeRock

Mine doesn't have a pre-wash basin either, so I just pour some directly in the dish compartment before closing/running. I feel its equivalent and it seems to work great.

⬐ morsch

It's strictly equivalent, dishwashers with a separate receptacle just dump it in the compartment, too.

⬐ sparker72678

My dishwasher doesn't have a pre-rinse basin, either.

But, I've found that for heavily soiled loads, if I throw an extra pod into the bottom of the dishwasher before I run it, that helps. (The extra pod will be dissolved in the first rinse, giving a boost.)

⬐ teawrecks

Was going to say, if there's not a pre-rinse basin, just squirt a bit anywhere. As you can see from the one you found, it just immediately falls out anyway.

⬐ leviathant

>So I just went and read through my dishwasher's manual.

I had gone through life either using dishwashers that came with my apartment/house, or installing used dishwashers, because I was otherwise punching above my weight.

My current home is the first place I've owned where I've bought all new appliances - which all came with manuals, which all have really good instructions for using the devices the way the product engineers intended them, and I can't believe it took me so long to come around to rtfm for day-to-day stuff. I'd basically leaned on techniques I learned as a kid in the 80s, for decades, even as technology changed. I know not to do this at work, but it was funny realizing what an oversight I'd made in my home life.

⬐ romanhn

It is funny. I keep all manuals around, just in case, on rare occasions throwing away the ones for products that I no longer have. Yet not once have I actually gone back to a physical manual, finding it easier to grab one online (as I did in the dishwasher base as well).

⬐ jrootabega

I've experimented with some of this advice in my dishwasher, with mixed results. Some of the pod manufacturers explicitly state that the pods are designed to compensate for the lack of a pre-wash, so this isn't a case of Out-of-touch Dumb Companies vs Smart Customer. Whether you believe the makers is another thing, but I think the video is oversimplifying for the sake of making viewers feel smart and achieving factoid popularity.

⬐ beenBoutIT

Pods are a scam. They measure out ordinary crappy dishwashing detergent and package it up in a 'pod' then mark the price up 10x. In the US soap seems to exist in a grey area where manufacturers can make unsubstantiated claims about performance based on 'testing' that they supposedly do internally. The new Dawn dishwashing liquids make claims about having exponentially more cleaning power and yet cleaning anything requires exactly the same amount of soap as it did with the old Dawn.

⬐ Groxx

Sure, if you buy the ones that cost 10x more per load.

The ones I buy are about 15% higher. The convenience is worth it for us for the ~$2/month increase.

⬐ None

None

⬐ None

None

⬐ quietbritishjim

Beware that his advice about extra detergent for the prerinse stage doesn't apply to all dishwashers: some let a little water rinse through the detergent compartment during that part of the cycle, so some is released even if you're using a tablet. Once they get to the main part of the programme, the compartment flips open to let the tablet fall out so it can finish dissolving completely. This totally solves the problem described in the video. Unlike the type he describes, these dishwashers don't even have a separate place for prewash detergent (because it would be redundant).

I'm in the UK, and all dishwashers I've seen work this way, even really cheap ones. So it's probably a country thing (most likely Europe vs US).

⬐ loser777

Note that a further complication is that some don't have a compartment but literally an indent on the tablet compartment where you're supposed to pour some prewash/detergent and it just gets incoporated into the mixture as it runs down. I suspect you can "boost" any dishwasher's prewash detergent amount by adding a bit on the door/in the bottom.

⬐ systemvoltage

I'm in the US using a GE dishwasher. It is similar to the ones in UK - no pre-wash compartment.

⬐ Scoundreller

Should be straightforward to figure out which kind your unit is (look and see if it is sealed off or not).

I haven't watched this video in a while so apologies if it's not specifically elaborated on, but I believe it's covered here: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

From memory yes, it's partially about water usage, but dishwashers are in general just pretty good overall about efficiently using energy to maximize "food grime removed" per unit of resources fed in. Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I think a decent dishwasher will beat you.

Another advantage is the dishwasher heats its own water, whereas with hand washing either you need to use a house-wide water heater or preheat water in a kettle or something, which will have its own energy wastes. This of course depends also on how your house's water is heated.

One page I found googling elaborates on these ideas, concluding that you could potentially be more efficient hand washing, but only with a lot of effort: https://www.treehugger.com/built-in-dishwashers-vs-hand-wash...

⬐ hoseja

And it's disgusting and water where I live is cheap and plentiful. Hate water austerity imposed on everyone because of megacities and people living where people shouldn't live.

⬐ bluGill

IF this was about water I agree with you. However it isn't actually about water it is about water heating. Hot water cleans better than cold, but it takes energy to heat water and that affects everyone (global warming). Thus less water is better.

There are also some water pumping and treatment costs (more energy), but they can be ignored as insignificant.

⬐ lovemenot

Large human population is an issue. But if you accept that as a premise, Megacities are more efficient in terms of resource usage than equally-sized but geographically dispersed populations.

As for water usage, think first of agriculture, then industry. Only after that do cities come into play. Cities are relatively small water consumers.

⬐ bluGill

See my other post: agriculture water is not heated or treated. Thus cities use as much energy for their water despite only using a fraction. In all of the above water itself is not the issue as it isn't lost, just moved downstream until the water cycle (rain - which has always been non-uniform) brings it back.

⬐ ashtonkem

Typically even within residential areas the issues isn't people per se, it's lawns and golf courses. And those are absolutely not evenly distributed or used.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

A city may be more efficient than lower population density on a per-capita basis but that is only tangential to the problem. A city in the California desert is not a good reason someone in NYC should have to endure a washing machine and dishwasher that are so stingy about water usage they are frequently ineffective at their primary task.

>As for water usage, think first of agriculture, then industry. Only after that do cities come into play. Cities are relatively small water consumers.

Where do those agricultural products get sold and eaten?

<insert screeching about "taxing muh negative externalities" here>

⬐ nielsbot

Thanks. I read the treehugger link—pretty convincing overall. Not sure why my question was downvoted tho. (Not accusing you)

⬐ hutzlibu

In my observation unfair downvotes come, when people are angry at something and looking at anything that looks like a scapegoat to direct that anger, which can be anyone not expressing the same mindset they have. Which was you by asking that question that apparently was enough to mentally puts you in the "stupid treehugger camp". I would not worry about it too much and try to not take it personal.

Their rational explanation is probably "how you can be so stupid for not knowing that common knowledge".

And well, even though I am indeed a treehugger, I also knew about the efficency of dishwashers before and also assumed it to be common knowledge, but I would never downvote someone because of a genuine question adding to the conversation.

⬐ spijdar

I didn't downvote -- it's fair to be skeptical that a machine that spends hours making loud whirring noises would be more efficient than just scrubbing some dishes in the sink. And I don't want to careful about making unequivocal statements like "dishwashers are always more efficient", I've just heard some convincing reasons why dishwashers in particular are pretty cool and (unintuitively) efficient.

⬐ hippari

You have to heat water to wash your dishes ? What kind of gravy sauce are you cooking in your pot.

⬐ Ichthypresbyter

>Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I think a decent dishwasher will beat you.

I once ran the dishwasher with the outlet hose in a bucket because the drain pump was on its way out. I expected to have to empty it several times, but at the end of the cycle there was less water in it than I would use to fill a washing-up bowl to do the dishes by hand (and the amount of dishes it cleaned might have required more than one bowl).

You don't have to pre-clean dishes. This video is a bit long-winded but gets the point across. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

One person doing one person's worth of dishes is pretty manageable. Once you get more people involved, or if you're getting a lot of utensils dirty while making something fancy, it can be a whole different story. Also, I think they use less water than washing by hand, but again this depends on how many dishes you put in there at a time.

Technology Connections on Youtube has a rather good video on the subject: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

Watch this video: Detergent packs are kinda wishy-washy (Dishwashers Explained)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Did you also watch: Detergent packs are kinda wishy-washy (Dishwashers Explained)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ ornornor

That video (and channel) are truly great.

> "all-in-one" tabs (1 tab = 1 wash) for my dishwasher,

Technology Connections explains why you actually want to use powder:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

TL; DR: It allows for the pre-wash/rinse cycle to work properly and gets things cleaner, faster.

⬐ kortex

Since we are talking dishwasher life hacks: I always add washing soda (sodium carbonate) along with the detergent, for hard water. It's one of the main ingredients in dry detergent, but it's super cheap. It boosts pH and increases the ratio of sodium to detergent, reducing soap scum.

⬐ lostlogin

Washing soda? I’d never heard of it. Here is a nice explanation of how you make washing soda and the difference.

TLDR, bake some baking soda for a few hours to make washing soda.

https://www.drkarenslee.com/make-your-own-homemade-washing-s...

⬐ throwawayboise

Or just buy it at the store?

⬐ wodenokoto

I haven’t seen a machine that holds detergent for prewash cycles nor powdered detergent here in Denmark for over a decade

⬐ maeln

When there is no holder for the prewash cycle, you can just dump some detergent directly in the dishwasher.

⬐ brewmarche

My dishwasher lacks the prewash basin as well and the manual recommends to just dump some detergent onto the door for the prewash cycle.

⬐ Dah00n

I just bought some the other day in Løvbjerg.

⬐ Daniel_sk

Same. I just opened my wash machine to check - no separate compartment for prewash.

⬐ amalter

I watched the same Technology Connections video and started adding a squirt (I use inexpensive liquid detergent) just directly on the inside of the door.

It has remarkably increased the “crud busting” power of my Bosch. I used to be fastidious about pre-rinsing before going in the dishwasher. Not I’m more confident to just go from table to washer (with a super quick rinse)

Even if you use tablets, buy a bit of liquid or powder and put about a teaspoon into the initial rinse.

On a tangent, the dishwasher is such a wonderful improvement on hand washing. My parents generation still sees the dishwasher as some kind of cheat or lazy way out.

They are so much more efficient and environmentally friendly than hand washing.

If you have more than one or two pots, you’ll easily use more than the couple of liters of water your dishwasher uses (and the heat for that water has to come from somewhere).

⬐ sorenjan

How much water and energy does it take to manufacture the machine? Mining the raw materials, transporting everything from different countries, etc, Sure it's convenient, but I'm not sold on the environment friendliness compared to hand washing. Of course, if you already have one it doesn't make sense to not use it, but much of our collective energy use comes from consumption and making new things we don't need.

⬐ throwawayboise

Yeah just don't use too much. It was long ago but my then-roommate once used liquid dish detergent in the dishwasher because we had run out of dishwasher detergent. The seemingly endless gallons of foam flowing out onto the floor was quite memorable.

⬐ iforgotpassword

Same! Using normal dish soap that's sitting next to the sink anyways; if you only add a squirt, it doesn't start making foam like crazy as it pretty much gets "used up" by all the grease, and the result is so much better.

⬐ rajeshgupta021

I agree

⬐ chris_engel

I'm not so sure about the environmental friendlyness. Our dishwasher runs for one and a half hour in eco mode. I'd need to measure how much energy it uses in the process. It feels so inefficient and slow. I'd spend about 20 minutes washing and drying the dishes on my own using cold water...

We still use it because with kids, every minute saved is a small win.

⬐ Tomte

Take a look at the Technology Connections video. Most people would be astonished how little water is used.

And considering that practically all of the energy use is heating the water, that translates into low energy use.

⬐ lozenge

The eco modes (or just generally, modes on newer dishwashers) take longer because to balance out the small amount of water, they need to spray the dishes more times. The energy use is low.

⬐ BillinghamJ

It does seem odd, but it is _far_ better than doing it manually. The reason it's so much more efficient is because it takes so long - it can do a great job despite using very little energy and water because it just keeps going at it gradually

⬐ eru

The main power saving comes from running at lower temperature.

Heating up water takes way more electricity than running the pumps.

⬐ Operyl

He even mentions that in the video, likely that your machine maker has altered their programmed cycles a bit to accommodate for it.

⬐ iforgotpassword

My ikea one from 2016 has one.

⬐ wodenokoto

Both Ikea ones that came with my last and current place doesn't have one. Maybe it's a higher end feature.

⬐ iforgotpassword

I think I picked the cheapest one. Could it be a regional thing? I'm in Germany.

⬐ BillinghamJ

Luckily, there's no need! Anything you'd put in a prewash compartment, you can put directly in the "tub" for the same effect

(Note this is not the case for the normal compartment - that does work differently)

⬐ Rafert

My brand new Kitchenaid dishwasher has the prewash compartment on top of the normal compartment - effectively making it a measuring cup throwing its contents into the tub once you close the door.

⬐ brewmarche

Another point regarding tabs: some of them contain rinse aids and salt (or other limescale mitigation) in addition to the detergent.

Salt needs to be dosed (read the manual and check the hardness of your water) which is not possible with tabs.

The rinse aid in the tab would be released at the wrong time together with the detergent. (Not sure how big of a problem this is).

⬐ deepspace

One thing I have been doing since watching this video was to add a small scoop of Oxyclean to the dishwasher (in addition to the tab). The difference in cleanliness has been noticeable.

⬐ rblatz

Yeah, this video was interesting but didn’t at all support the conclusion he made. He stopped the cycle half way through and basically compared washing with soap and without. Shocker,with soap was better. More surprising is how close without soap was.

I assume he skipped comparing full cycle because showing that there isn’t a difference doesn’t result in a catchy title and an interesting video.

⬐ sgarland

I'm a fan of the channel, and watched the video, but also haven't had issues with my Bosch not having a pre-rinse compartment. It washes far better than any dishwasher I've had before, including ones that had a pre-rinse compartment.

⬐ pocketgrok

Your dishwasher was designed to be used without a pre-rinse and is good dishwasher. I’ve had not-so-great dishwashers with pre-rinse slots that were essentially required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ OJFord

Pretty much lost me on the presentation; finally lost me on 'these things completely fly in the face of the way most dishwashers are designed to work'.

Uh, what? Must be a US thing, whatever the alternative is, because that's (those detergent, salt, perfume, whatever else tablets in a water-soluble wrapper are) all I've ever known. (UK.)

⬐ lupire

That's because your locality has forgotten how dishwashers were designed to work.

⬐ davewasthere

Worth checking your dishwasher though. Ditto, that's all I knew in UK (although I mostly hand-washed).

But even here in Aus now, there's a little compartment for pre-wash/rinse detergent... but nobody is aware of it that I've come across. That youtube video was revelationary!

⬐ OJFord

Rinse aid? Yeah that goes next to the tablet under a little flap. Supermarkets sell it, usually blue.

Is that what the video was about? That tablets 'fly in the face of how dishwashers are supposed to work' because you also need rinse aid?

That's nonsense, how every dishwasher I've used has been supposed to work is you keep the salt topped up, the rinse aid topped up, and (supposedly optionally) use a tablet with each wash.

⬐ jeroenhd

No, not rinse aid. The video discusses the way dishwashers work; most of them have two distinct cycles, one spraying off most of the loose food, draining the tub, and then another, which has its water recycled.

Most dishwashers are designed to have a little detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second cycle. The detergent from the first cycle becomes available to the water immediately, the detergent for the second cycle is the part that you put in the compartment.

If you want to know the details, watch the rest of the video. Or, if you don't want to do that, read your dish washer's manual. Maybe yours was designed without to forego detergent in the first cycle, because people have switched to pods anyway. Maybe it wasn't, and you can get a hygiene boost by using powder instead of pods.

If you use detergent pods, one of your cycles won't run with anything but water. If you put the detergent in the tub, the longer, second cycle runs without detergent. If you put the pod in the little compartment, the first cycle is much less effective than it can be.

Many machines are still designed for powder or gel detergents that you put into both compartments. You can get the same dishwasher performance by using two dishwasher tablets per run (one in the tub and one in the compartment) but that'll use up way more detergent than you actually need.

Rinse aid is for maintaining your dishwasher, that's something different entirely.

⬐ OJFord

> Most dishwashers are designed to have a little detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second cycle. The detergent from the first cycle becomes available to the water immediately, the detergent for the second cycle is the part that you put in the compartment.

None that I've ever seen here.

> If you want to know the details, watch the rest of the video. Or, if you don't want to do that, read your dish washer's manual.

The video is.. I'm not its target audience. But I do actually have the manual: its 'programme phases' are 'pre-wash', 'wash' (different temperatures depending on setting), rinse, and dry. The detergent tablet is dispensed in the 'wash' phase. There's nowhere to put any to be dispensed in the 'pre-wash' phase. So, instead of 'some then most', it's 'none then all'. I've never known one work differently.

> Many machines are still designed for powder or gel detergents that you put into both compartments.

Right, again, not here: I don't have and have never seen one with two detergent compartments.

I still don't think tablets 'fly in the face of how the machine's supposed to work', there should just be big & little detergent tablets for markets with big & little detergent compartments.

Everywhere else with single compartments, a single tablet works fine, is exactly how the machine's designed to work, and they often even have a 'recommended brand' (for whatever commission).

⬐ CRConrad

> There's nowhere to put any to be dispensed in the 'pre-wash' phase.

Some comments here have mentioned that one can put it into the main compartment of the machine. Just squirt it in on the floor, if I understood correctly.

⬐ OJFord

I mean.. sure. But it's definitely not 'designed to work' that way, and to be clear what I was objecting to was the tablets being described as 'flying in the face of the way [the dishwashers are] designed to work'.

⬐ Symbiote

> Most dishwashers are designed to have a little detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second cycle.

This is uncommon, possibly non-existent, in dishwashers sold in Europe in the last decade or longer.

I remember them having a pre-wash detergent compartment in the 1990s, but nowadays there's only a single compartment, for the main wash.

⬐ bartman

My recently bought Miele dishwasher has such a compartment (DE). They’re even labeled as I and II.

⬐ Nullabillity

The pre-wash compartment is really just a lidless measuring scoop anyway. If you don't have one, put it directly into the washing compartment instead.

⬐ BillinghamJ

I don't think UK dishwashers typically have such a compartment, but no need for it anyway - same result achieved by putting the equivalent detergent directly in the tub, though you lose the convenient dosing

⬐ iso1210

My family had a dishwasher in the late 80s or early 90s, before tablets were common, you put powder in.

(Washing machines were of course the same - you put in liquid and powder in the draw at the top, rather than throwing in a tablet in with the clothes)

⬐ OJFord

Yeah I thought that was probably the case (just predates at least my memory) - but surely putting powder/liquid directly in vs contained in a water-soluble capsule is.. the same, not 'flying in the face' of how it works?

(For what it's worth, I still put liquid in the top of my washing machine! Tablets only seemed to appear for washing machines ~10y ago, at least that I was aware of, and still seem way more expensive /wash.)

⬐ CRConrad

What, washing machines use tablets too nowadays? I've never seen that.

⬐ OJFord

I started seeing them in supermarkets (in the UK) ~5 years ago; actually I think I only noticed them after a colleague mentioned using them, so maybe that's not accurate at all.

I've never used them though, they seem to solve a problem that barely exists, and at quite a premium.

⬐ iso1210

I've used them for 20+ years, they used to be in plastic bags, but now they have a dissolving membrane.

⬐ BillinghamJ

> putting powder/liquid directly in vs contained in a water-soluble capsule is.. the same

Assuming you mean putting it directly in the "tub" versus in the compartment, no that's not true.

The initial fill - which will dissolve anything put directly into the tub - drains fairly quickly. The detergent in the compartment is only released after this point.

If there's nothing in the compartment, there won't be any detergent being used for the bulk of the washing - so regardless of form factor, it's important to use that.

But in addition - rather than instead, putting a small amount of powder in the tub will make the initial rinsing much more effective.

⬐ OJFord

I think you're talking about washing machines (as in clothes)? The part of my comment you quoted (all except the parenthetical, matching the one I replied to) was about dishwashers.

Good point though. A lot of people who use liquid (as opposed to a pod thing) put it in the drum anyway, in a reusable container that comes with some brands. I used to, until I bought a brand that didn't come with one of those on the lid; put it in 'that old-fashioned drawer', and wondered why I hadn't always.

⬐ iso1210

That was the aside about Clothes Washing Machines.

I believe US (clothes) washing machines are usually top-loaders? And stored somewhere else, like a basement or garage?

In the UK most washing machines are front loaders, usually in the kitchen (large houses have a separate utility). There's a draw on the top to put various powders, but I don't remember ever using it and I've been washing clothes since the 90s.

⬐ Daniel_sk

I don't even have a pre-wash compartment on my (not cheap) EU dishwasher. There is just a place for the tablet and then rinse aid (which I never used). And always get good results with quality tablets.

⬐ ed25519FUUU

I started using rinse aid this past year and I was pleasantly surprised how it removed nearly all streaks from my glassware. Thankfully the wash cycle only uses a minuscule amount of rinse aid, so a large container lasts me almost a year.

⬐ BillinghamJ

Yeah I'm in the UK and the tablets are all I've seen too. But it seems that e.g. a tablet plus a small amount of pre-wash power or similar may perform much better.

I suspect we're just much further along in this cycle compared to the US - where manufacturers have accepted that people like the tablets and that's that. There's still the opportunity to get better cleaning with this knowledge though.

It's worth noting there's no need for a pre-wash compartment. They do the exact same thing as if you just put the detergent into the "tub"

⬐ ajdude

I was about to post this. Highly recommend it for anyone interested in dishwasher efficiency.

Technology Connections has got you covered:

> Ever wonder how dishwashers work? Are you ever bummed by the performance of yours? Well, this video can answer your question and possibly provide you with a solution!

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

⬐ geoduck14

Oh Technology Connections. What a good channel!