Hacker News Comments on
Investigation: How Roblox Is Exploiting Young Game Developers
People Make Games
·
Youtube
·
104
HN points
·
15
HN comments
- This course is unranked · view top recommended courses
Hacker News Stories and Comments
All the comments and stories posted to Hacker News that reference this video.Some interesting related investigation (I think they mention this girl in the second video) related to roblox is anyone is interested. I had never used it, but after seeing these I don't think I would ever use it or encourage anyone to use it.
⬐ archixeAs someone who knows nothing about roblox these videos were very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Watch both People Make Games video about Roblox and try to argue that the company should not deserve all the public controversy it is getting. They are actively stalling any moderation and protection because their profit margin would be severely diminished. Children's safety versus money, the choice is oh so simple.
⬐ tomgpYes, highly recommend these videos. If anything the heat on Roblox is not turned up nearly high enough.
As an outsider to Roblox I found https://youtu.be/_gXlauRB1EQ insightful, as well as it's follow-up video https://youtu.be/vTMF6xEiAaY
⬐ jv22222Holy crap, every parent needs to watch these videos end-to-end.Roblox is predatory platform in so many ways.
There are two video investigations from People Make Games into economic aspects of Roblox in particular child labor/exploitation and monopolistic aspirations via platform capitalism.1. Investigation: How Roblox Is Exploiting Young Game Developers ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQ )
2. Roblox Pressured Us to Delete Our Video. So We Dug Deeper. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY )
I'd suggest watching these to help inform your decision and conversation:Investigation: How Roblox Is Exploiting Young Game Developers -- https://youtu.be/_gXlauRB1EQ
Roblox Pressured Us to Delete Our Video. So We Dug Deeper. -- https://youtu.be/vTMF6xEiAaY
Here's more than you wanted to know:- People Make Games: Investigation: How Roblox Is Exploiting Young Game Developers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQ
- People Make Games: Roblox Pressured Us to Delete Our Video. So We Dug Deeper. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY
I think you're right that it's something that can be used in good or bad ways, and the thrust of the argument is that there aren't the kind of safeguards you'd hope for to stop kids falling to one of the bad ways. Like how we keep kids out of Casinos (or used to at least, now we just ship casinos to kids in their FIFA games).
Investigation: How Roblox Is Exploiting Young Game Developers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQRoblox Pressured Us to Delete Our Video. So We Dug Deeper. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY
Cuts like those work for Roblox, why not Facebook?
⬐ DuraliasRoblox is marketed towards kids who either doesn't know any better or cannot do anything about it.Also, why is it ok for Roblox to have such high rates in the first place?
⬐ mmastracYou're right. Roblox should not be allowed to charge that much either.
I was just getting at the illusion of choice. At the end of the day it's all owned by the same handful of small groups. Found out yesterday that Blizzard apparently owns King. Tencent owns a cut of Activision Blizzard, as well as a slice of basically every gaming company. https://dataromas.com/what-companies-does-tencent-own/Note that I'm not even criticizing or otherwise knocking these business practices, I'm simply making some observations. My use of the term bullshit was particularly to describe the illusion of choice. Not that it's anything new. http://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/c...
I think the world would be just fine without fortnite, but I will say unreal engine is pretty nice to have. Probably just a matter of time until Microsoft owns unreal engine as well.
Tangentially relevant due to Tencent involvement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQ&ab_channel=Peopl... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY&ab_channel=Peopl...
⬐ skinnymuchTencent has been bogged down by CCP’s crack down. It’s valuation is likely higher than the market is putting it at, unless CCP continues their stuff even more. Money that Microsoft has doesn’t matter to a company that also pumps out billions in profit like Tencent. They have no reason to ever give up an inch of their 40% stake. Microsoft wouldn’t be able to own it or Unreal realistically. Tencent is a bigger gaming company than Microsoft.Cool you’re seeing how much Tencent controls. However the linked site doesn’t give good data and info. Tencent has stakes in far more things and the stakes they have are known too. While the site lists only a fraction of them. Including not listing much, much bigger stakes they have. Or not listing the actual specific stakes they have in companies like Kakao which are known. Or not saying their Epic Games stake percentage.
I should get to posting content! My notes on Tencent are pretty detailed if I may put humbleness aside for a second lol. But I don’t publish anything. Seeing sites with such weak info, is motivating.
—
Yeah there isn’t much choice in any thing. I don’t care about games, but Take Two (Grand Theft Auto, etc) are the 3rd biggest independent gaming developers and publishers. They have a market cap or $28B and are buying Zynga for $13B. Zynga themselves have swallowed dozens of companies amounting to a couple billion. EA, the 2nd largest, bought Popcap who make Bejeweled and Zombie vs Plant. Pokémon Go developer is valued in the billions and Google, Nintendo, among others have sizable stakes in it.
For all the positives HN and other geeks give Steam and Valve. They still charge a 30% cut. Only finally changing it up a bit because of Fortnite’s profits letting Epic Games compete with their 12% cut. So as much as saying Fortnite going away is no problem. At least they are the ones fighting the three headed modern gaming walled gardens of iOS App Store, Play Store, and Steam. Sure, it’s more like the enemy of my enemy situation, but that’s better than them not being around.
Edit: thanks for the reply! Most people don’t reply after the first 24 hours. Just set up a bot to get reply notifications. Was happy to geek out on this topic for a bit. Even though the bigger issues of monopolies and how screwed us normal people are, are not pleasant.
If you wanna get wilder if you’re an SO user. Prosus, who owned 40%, maybe 32% these days, of Tencent, bought Stackoverflow :P. They have also invested in many tech companies.
To add, there is a nice documentary here[1] which also has a followup[2] that show even more of the issue at hand. Kids making games and only getting 24.5% of the profit is one thing, but everything else that Roblox does is much worse.
⬐ QualadoreThe 24.5% cut is fine, you have to consider the 30% app store fees for a majority mobile playerbase, all hosting is free, moderation is a major expense, and engine and platform development.Successful games subsidize everyone else, which is not comparable to Steam or anything else.
Collectible items are fine and can't be exchanged for USD, Roblox can't arbitrate developer disputes, "black markets" are an extremely tiny niche. A lot of misinformation.
It's annoying to see these videos brought up every single time Roblox is mentioned anywhere for these reasons. Part of the blame lies with Roblox for one of the worst PR responses I have seen in tech, I suppose.
⬐ bcrosby95I have less a problem with the cut, and more a problem with how they achieve it. It harkens back to company towns paying workers in company credit that is expensive to convert to USD.⬐ brimble> The 24.5% cut is fine, you have to consider the 30% app store fees for a majority mobile playerbase, all hosting is free, moderation is a major expense, and engine and platform development.You have successfully made the case for a 45% fee and being considered approximately normal, or a 60% fee and being considered pretty high still. 75+% is crazy.
⬐ RussianCowCrazy compared to what? Nobody else is offering what Roblox offers, and building it yourself is a non-starter for almost everyone.⬐ QualadoreI can't think of any other platform with comparable expenses. Traditional game engines have the R&D component, but not moderation, developer services, or subsidizing games that don't succeed.It helps that seriously marketing a Roblox game costs < $1k USD always, usually < $200 USD. It's not easy to generate a loss, even when including production costs. That's the tradeoff.
More like 75%. Roblox is a terrible company that pays company scrip to exploit kids.
I saw an interesting video about Roblox a while ago:
⬐ ballenfThe Onion predicted this in 2007:https://www.theonion.com/gap-unveils-new-for-kids-by-kids-cl...
⬐ vmceptionGreat, around the time Roblox actually came out but nobody cared for 14 years consecutively
This is a bandaid measure. Roblox spends most of its time convincing young children that they will be successful while simultaneously cheesing the 'robux' exchange rate so that these children get nothing.Roblox is undoubtedly responding to backlash from revelations that they are exploiting children for economic growth. Here's a great summary: https://youtu.be/_gXlauRB1EQ
⬐ nomel> Roblox spends most of its time convincing young children that they will be successfulI've never seen this. Could you give an example? Me and my kids are pretty heavy players, with a couple games released, with one giving my kid a nice stream of Robux.
⬐ dreyfanHe's just regurgitating from that poorly researched youtube video and has literally no clue what he's talking about.
⬐ fxtentacleI feel like this is similar to the criticism that YouTube received in its early days. And I wonder if the problem is with the platforms that offer an opportunity for self-exploitation or with our work culture. Because self-exploitation is a much more widespread issue and transcends platforms and workplaces. In my opinion, it's the "rags to riches" and hustle mindset that's at fault. So I'd rather blame Tony Robbins and Tim Ferry than Roblox.⬐ FormFollowsFunc⬐ vyrotekIt's one thing to exploit adults as platform tech companies do but it's fairly low to exploit kids.Great video! I have 3 kids who are obsessed with Roblox. It's a lot of fun but we don't spend any money on it. Coincidentally my 13yo just took an interest in making Roblox games this week. She figured it all out on her own and got something published. I personally dabble with some Unity dev so if course I encouraged it. It's fun to make stuff for others. 2 players tried it.But, this video has given me a lot to think about. I always wondered what the marketplace actually looked like. I tried to set reasonable time expectations for my daughter and make sure she was doing this more for fun and learning than to make money. This has soured my perception of the company.
⬐ bko⬐ fimdomeioUnfortunately discoverability and a saturated app store market is the norm everywhere. The video states that most developers there don't make any money, but that means Roblox also doesn't make any money, so I can't see how its exploitation.If my kid was into creating games or art, I would encourage him. Kind of like running a lemonade stand, you're not going to get rich. You'll probably even lose money. A cynic would say you're enriching big sugar, but I think it's a good experience and something fun to do. Certainly better than being a consumer.
⬐ atatatat⬐ majkinetor> so I can't see how its exploitation.Erlich Bachman?
Yet, roblux obsession turned into game making. You as father didn't do it with your Unity dev skills but roblux did it and yet you seem to complain now, while still appreciating the outcome ... strange.Working for nothing - that used to be a required thing for any job. FOSS people still do it and nobody thinks Github is exploiting. In todays world they call it exploitation but it was considered learning before.
⬐ taplandQueued the video for watching tonight, but I heard about a local middle school kid making more than his parents by making roblox mods (being one of few top creators).I hope it gets more kids to try programming, but If you can get compensated it sucks if it isn't reasonable and fair.
Previous Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28247034⬐ gaudatAnd yet nobody complained about this 10 years ago when Minecraft was all the rage?⬐ junon⬐ nbzsoMinecraft has never had an (official) marketplace.E: I'm wrong, apparently the spin-off versions of Minecraft have them. Java Minecraft (the original) never did.
⬐ phil-martin⬐ sdflhasjdI haven’t yet watched the video, but Minecraft definitely has an official marketplace and in game currency. It is for the pocket edition/bedrock editionI’ve bought numerous skins and game mods for myself and the kids to enjoy.
From what little I understand this is quite different from the Java edition, but I don’t really know.
⬐ junon> From what little I understand this is quite different from the Java edition, but I don’t really know.Ah, that would be why. My mistake - I've never played anything but the Java version.
None of the issues raised in the video seem to apply to Minecraft.Minecraft doesn't have an in-game currency, and mod developers don't have any kind of marketplace relationship with Mojang.
⬐ strogonoff> Minecraft doesn't have an in-game currency, and mod developers don't have any kind of marketplace relationship with Mojang.Since the acquisition, Microsoft is working hard to fix that glaring omission (a.k.a. ruin everything) with Minecoins and the marketplace.
But yes, the game was not created with such mechanics in mind and 10 years ago they would not even remotely be on the radar.
There is no problem. The only valuable model that is interesting to big VC is exploitation and dark patterns design UX practices. The big money. Basically it is all the same, from Medium to Roblox, who builds the biggest hole for user generated content wins. Recently I read on HN, one blogger was happy that is not self-hosting and shared that there is no way to have discovery without a big platform as Medium.Users like to be exploited, big tech likes to exploit. I see harmonious parasitism in action and UX design from Hell.
P.S. Message for the down-voters: I don't give a flying f about your reaction. I will go a step further: I consider this as an actual positive. Critical thinking is not popular but for me it has enormous value.
⬐ LadyCailinLet me make sure I’m clear on your argument: you think it’s just great for the labor of children to be exploited for the benefit of shareholders?If this is correct, then you’re not actually a “critical thinker”, just a horrible person.
⬐ drowe859⬐ ecfWhen disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."⬐ majkinetorCan you really exploit someone that can leave any time ?⬐ LadyCailin⬐ mattbeeYes. When they’re too young to understand that you’re earning money from their work, and not paying them.⬐ majkinetorSingling out Roblox when this is ubiquitous seems wild. Any sport fits into this category - trainer makes money by exploiting kids doing some physical work and are too young to understand... Or school projects etc..I took the comment as a resigned "that's why these platforms will continue to grow". Not as support or condemnation.I agree that Roblox profits off the creativity of children without giving them a meaningful share or dealing with the other issues of child labour, and that's pretty gross.
> the only valuable model that is interesting to big VC is exploitation and dark patternsThe growing number of fintech startups accepted into YC this year that service Latin America and other ~~easily exploitable~~ underserved markets would back up your claim.
The video this article is reporting on is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQ.Normally we'd change the URL to the original source but I think most HN readers probably prefer to read a summary even if the article is cribbed.
⬐ cmaSeems Apple and others take a cut of their sales, so Apple is directly taking 30% on child labor wages.⬐ turbohzThis needs more exposure.⬐ yellow_leadThis is incredible. I feel like platform regulation is one of the only ways to prevent this. Something around not exploiting children for profit could be nice too.