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This video from mid-March by a Japanese expat in Nanjing was pretty interesting. He walks you through many of the post "opening up" practices in place in Nanjing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM:

> Coronavirus: From 93 infected to 0, what did this Chinese City do to contain the virus?

The Chinese lockdown is much more severe than anything being enforced in the US. They track everyone's movements with their phones, large areas of the cities where cases have been reported are sealed off with checkpoints at the exit points. Your temperature is checked almost everywhere you go, the temperature of anyone working in food production is checked every 30mins, to board the subway you must scan the QR code in the specific carriage. It's very hard to explain just how drastically different the measures China are taking compared to the rest of the world but here is a good video that gives some insight: https://youtu.be/YfsdJGj3-jM

Can you imagine this happening in the US? What happens if this is what it takes to avoid the 60-80% infections required before herd immunity kicks in?

My biggest concern is that we aren't working on the infrastructure and cultural shift that is going to be needed to have a return to normal.

The endgame of covid-19 is herd immunity, which requires either 30-60% of the population infected and recovered, or it requires a vaccine. Realistically both are probably 9+ months out: vaccines are slow to develop, and almost every governor has proven they'd rather shut down everything than see hospitals be overloaded.

In other words, for the next 6-12 months we have two choices:

(a) Public life sees a boom-bust pattern of sickness, where we open things back up, then a new outbreak of infection happens, and everything shuts down again for 2-6 weeks.

(b) We aggressively fight off our initial outbreak, then build infrastructure to quickly identify and contain all infections. We gently reopen life back to a kind-of-normal states of permanent semi-quarantine until a vaccine arrives.

In my opinion, (b) is clearly the optimal approach. And yet we haven't even begun working on the infrastructural and cultural changes needed to support pre-herd-immunity public life.

We need mass production of face masks and a culture where it is unacceptable to not wear a face mask in public, particularly crowded locations and public transit.

We need every building, every bus and train, every tourist attraction, testing every visitor with a contactless thermometer. If you have a fever you get a covid-19 test.

To support allowing non-remote-capable work to resume, any jobs that are remote capable should remain remote until we have herd immunity. More people leaving their homes means higher risk of an outbreak, and when an outbreak happens non-remote-capable employees are the ones screwed over.

As much as I distrust the CCP and China's official numbers, it just takes one glance on the measures being taken in China to prove that China is a thousand times more serious about containing this virus than we are, and that's going to play in their favor in getting things back to normal. Here's an eye-opening video on some of the steps Nanjing has taken to prevent an outbreak:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM&feature=youtu.be

The simple fact is we're lacking the national leadership to make an effective response to this disease.

⬐ bin0

Cultural changes? How would you build those? The government doesn't control the culture. How would you make it unacceptable? Bureaucrats don't have direct control over that. Also, a bunch of "we need"s about the ideal situation don't do much.

The reason the China contained it is because she is an authoritarian state. While that provides certain advantages in this situation, it comes with certain drawbacks: not being able to access many websites, inability to express your political opinion, inability to own a firearm, being tossed in a concentration camp if the government doesn't like you. This isn't a question of leadership, you're asking the government to do things it literally has no power to do, things entirely outside of the constitution.

⬐ helen___keller

> Cultural changes? How would you build those? The government doesn't control the culture. How would you make it unacceptable? Bureaucrats don't have direct control over that. Also, a bunch of "we need"s about the ideal situation don't do much.

We have a federal government. A federal government can spend money, including on marketing. Remember WWII propaganda, some of which people can still recite to this day, like "loose lips sink ships"?

A federal government can pass laws that require workplaces to take certain actions (temperature checks for employees, WFH for jobs that are capable of doing so). A federal government can pass regulations requiring public gatherings to take certain security actions such as taking visitors' temperatures with a contactless thermometer. A federal government can spend money to have factories produce a very large number of face masks and contactless thermometers, and can coordinate with states to distribute them to population centers.

> The reason the China contained it is because she is an authoritarian state

Yes, thanks for stating the obvious. If you notice I didn't suggest we restrict travel between states and cities, or that we lock people inside their homes, or that we should register every location that a person goes to so that we can quickly identify who they've been in contact with should they test positive for covid-19. These are the more authoritarian actions that China has taken.

In fact, lacking the authoritarian actions, we need to try even harder at the non-authoritarian stuff. Which we aren't doing.

These two videos show how organized and committed China is to containing this virus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehCnbW4FAhg

Brief:

- Your temperature is checked before entering any store/restaurant/tourist attraction/(sometimes) leaving your neighborhood/(sometimes) at a road block. You must scan a QR code so your location is logged.

- Restaurant workers and public servants are suited up in light haz mat gear.

- Entire neighborhoods have literally been walled off with just one entrance where your temperature must be checked to enter/exit.

- Hotels have shut off central air to prevent the spread

- Ordering food is touch free

- Elevators have tissue paper so there's no direct contact with the buttons

- Offices can only reopen once they have a Covid-19 plan, hand sanitizer, gloves, touch free thermometer, masks, etc. Each employee must log how they got to work.

- much more in the links

⬐ weinzierl

The most striking difference is apparently the amount of testing China allegedly does. For lack of a better source scroll down to the graph in the middle here [1]. If anyone has credible data to confirm or deny I'd be interested.

[1] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/3/12/21172040/corona...

Measures in Nanjing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM&feature=youtu.be

Procedures at Zhejiang Hospital (zero fatalities)

https://video-intl.alicdn.com/Handbook%20of%20COVID-19%20Pre...

⬐ gridlockd

TLDW;

They extended their already totalitarian surveillance measures to allow for more effective isolation.

Here is a video that better describes the situation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM&feature=youtu.be

Looking at how China locked down it's cities and how most western politicians reacted including your president. You should not assume how the effect in China and the rest of the world will be same. This is how China controlled the spread https://youtu.be/YfsdJGj3-jM

⬐ planethero

I have a hard time believing anything coming out of China these days.

⬐ xbmcuser

I know many people are discounting chinese infection numbers because they are China but this is how they controlled the virus. The video is in Japanese with english subtitles by a japanese reporter.

It's very helpful, because as soon as someone has symptoms or tests positive, you automatically know everyone they've come into contact or close proximity with, and can have those people isolate. You can also better determine whom to test, since there is nowhere near the testing infrastructure to blanket test everywhere.

In China they also have an app where anyone can see locations where an infected person has been, and how recently, both so they can avoid those places, but also so they can feel more confident being out in society otherwise (in areas without significant current outbreaks). This video demonstrates how it works in one Chinese city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=YfsdJGj3-jM&...

I agree with many of the problems pointed out, but it does appear that the benefits during the pandemic would be significant.

It would be so useful if I got a notification if I happen to have crossed paths with a person who later turned out to be infected so I can get tested too. This will preempt so many asymptotic transmissions.

Such apps are already deployed in china: https://youtu.be/YfsdJGj3-jM?t=303

We don't trust the government but what if it's just a private company who does it? Google already has your location info: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline They are definitely already using the information in aggregate to provide traffic jam info. Hell I am sure facebook already does this for suggesting friends too. On the balance of privacy vs social good, I don't think there's even much slippery slope left to protect.

And because China reacted with extreme measures, they got the virus under control, and are now starting to reduce the restrictions, and commerce is starting back up. It's nowhere near normal, but by reacting quickly and decisively you reduce the likelihood of longer lockdowns being required in the future (as well as the likelihood of significant loss of life).

This video gives a sense of the measures taken in cities outside of Wuhan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM

Here's how China claims to be handling day-to-day life: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM

Basically, masks in public, no-contact thermometers everywhere, and QR codes that you scan to enter a subway or a building. There's more, but that's the core.

If you have a fever, then they send you to a specialized fever clinic: https://mobile.twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1238604080571772...

There, they determine if you've been infected. If you have been, they send you to a group isolation ward, where you spend a few weeks chilling out and doing group dance exercises. If can't stand up and dance, you get treatment.

It's clearly a society at war, and I'm sure some ugly details are hidden. But it looks better than hiding indoors while our medical system burns and our elderly relatives die (and at least some of us younger folk wind up with scarred lungs).

Or just watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM

⬐ ekidd

This is a really interesting video. I'm not sure how accurately it represents the situation on the ground in China, of course. But the video shows a society with temperature checks at every place of business, a location-tracking system, an isolation system, and a number of other precautions.

It's a picture of a society on a war footing, certainly. But people aren't locked in their apartments, and the hospital system isn't collapsing under its own weight.

So far, this is the most optimistic answer I've seen to "What comes after total lockdown but before a vaccine?"

⬐ prewett

People actually were locked in their apartment compounds for about a month, at least in Beijing.

⬐ physicles

I live in Beijing and came back early Feb after the new year holiday. We’re doing all that stuff too, even the single use tissue in the elevators.

The day after I got back we found out we had a case of covid-19 in our apartment block, so we were one of the first to get restricted entry/exit — each unit gets 2 cards and you have to present it when you enter or leave through the single open gate. I did 2 weeks going outside just twice to buy food, then slowly relaxed a bit. Many of my chinese friends are still basically not going out at all.

Now’s an exciting time for China because we’re at basically zero new cases in the country (had 4 new ones in Hubei yesterday, the rest were all retournees from outside the country). So since yesterday, it’s mandatory hotel quarantine for everyone who enters the country.

Really getting worried for my family and friends in the states though. Gonna have some long talks about how to prepare.

⬐ markhahn

It's not clear to me whether the no-new-cases in China is real, temporary or biased sampling. Lockdown is a temporary measure to prevent any new infections is betting that something will change (vaccine, season-related drop in R0). It can't go on forever without destroying the economy. Do you think it's reasonable to trust reports of no new cases? Is the sense that is just "no new symptomatic cases that get reported officially", or really none? I find it difficult to believe that there can be no new cases in a vast country where almost everyone is susceptible, but perhaps I underestimate the degree of lockdown.

Sorry for me spamming this but this is extraordinary times:

For people who are curious what living in China feels like now (video uploaded Mar 14th), from a Japanese director living in Nanjing, China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM

Things are getting back to normal, with tons of precautions.

There are a few other youtube channels run by westerners vlogging on the current situation in China. e.g. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1XG7bJnYqta_ezr12WZp7w

Also, from someone lived in Wuhan: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-likely-to-get-sick-i...

⬐ enitihas

I will recommend everyone to watch the Nanjing video. That is an insane amount of precautions. Keep in mind that it is about Nanjing, which was nowhere near Wuhan numbers. Some examples:

1. Every place is taking temperature of people. Every place

2. You have to register your presence everywhere. Boarding the metro train you have to scan a QR

3. Takeout is totally touchless, and contains the names of the employees involved in making it.

4. Cabs have a plastic seal between driver and passenger sides.

5. Restaurants have physical barriers between seats, so even if you go together with someone, you can't eat the food while looking at each other.

There are just some examples, the video shows many more.

To top it all, everyone is wearing masks. Everyone.

⬐ WaltPurvis

You posted this simultaneously with my comment just above, and it provides some helpful information related to my questions. Thank you.

⬐ chippy

Just to update as this changes from day to day as things get relaxed (in Nanjing)

> 1. Every place is taking temperature of people. Every place

Not every places anymore. Most shops, supermarkets or malls no longer have dedicated temperature staff. However entrances to living areas (neighbourhoods) and official infrastructure would have

> 2. You have to register your presence everywhere. Boarding the metro train you have to scan a QR

Not everywhere, like shops etc. However some cafes and restaurants required you to scan in to let you sit down. Additionally the app checked your face with your ID so you cant just share your qr code.

> Takeout is touchless

Also deliveries to your door are not back yet. Deliveries get dropped in a designated area where you go to pick them up.

> 4. Cabs have a plastic seal between driver and passenger sides.

However their version of "Uber" has no seals and is normal.

> 5. Restaurants have physical barriers between seats, so even if you go together with someone, you can't eat the food while looking at each other.

No longer the case as a rule. Most restaurants are not open for seating it seems currently, but those that do you can sit next to or opposite people now. However originally it was one person per seat when they first re-opened.

Rules are being relaxed daily. In Nanjing there hasnt been a case of the virus for 2 weeks.

⬐ harmmonica

This may seem redundant, but can you confirm that the video from the Japanese resident of Nanjing is a fairly accurate representation of what it was like in Nanjing before the restrictions were loosened? Also, you didn't say it, but I assume you actually live in Nanjing currently?

I have read countless comments online asking how can it be possible for China's case numbers to be nearly non-existent at this point and the Nanjing video paints the picture completely for me, an average American.

Another comment in this thread talks about symptoms and what it's like actually having the virus.

If a series of videos existed that showed a) what it's like having the disease (I haven't seen any videos showing that but the top comment on this thread as of now is a good first-person explanation of a "mild" case) and b) the lockdown response necessary to keep the numbers down or eliminate them altogether I feel like more people would be able to take this seriously here.

Of course I also watch that Nanjing video and realize that I don't see how it's possible that Americans would ever go for such extreme measures, which makes one think that the UK "let them get sick to get herd immunity" starts to make more sense.

⬐ chippy

Yes, the situation on the video is accurate from when it was filmed. Just that the situation is also rapidly loosening up and variable from place to place. Also it was much more strict a couple of weeks ago. I think people want to return to normality as quickly as possible. I've seen a few people walking around in their living areas with no masks now.

One update would be that some deliveries (possibly postal or parcels) are able to come into the living areas - but again this is just this week. Some other delivery companies are not allowed in just yet though.

I've a contact living in the north of Nanjing in a residential area.

⬐ theseadroid

Plz keep in mind that with all those measures employed in China, we don't know exactly which ones are effective and how effective they are. Also S.K. Taiwan, and Singapore has a different set of measures that seems to work. What I wanted from posting that video is to show the virus is containable once everyone is onboard.

And as a Chinese I know everyone is onboard on day 1. Tons of volunteers. Tons of volunteering health workers from day 1. The people keep temperature readings from many communities and neighbourhoods are volunteers. Many elderly volunteered to do that. Everyone is onboard to contain the virus on day 1 by themselves, not forced. Ask any Chinese you know, I guarantee you no one thinks it's just a flu. I would bet that people from S.K. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore all share the same attitude.

In startup world we say people would achieve wonders once the vision is clear and everyone is onboard. It's the same with this pandemic.

For people who are curious what living in China feels like now (video uploaded Mar 14th), from a Japanese director living in Nanjing, China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfsdJGj3-jM

Things are getting back to normal, with tons of precautions.

⬐ toxicFork

This is very impressive.

⬐ eBombzor

Wow they pretty much thought of and solved every case where human contact could be possible. The elevator transportation in particular is pretty clever. Those Chinese cities are incredibly mobile. I can't even imagine how long it would take any US city to get to that point if ever.