HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

You do realize that comes from english right?

    if $you-are-hungry { make-a-sandwich() }

    make-a-sandwich() if $you-are-hungry;

If you remove all of the non-letter characters, you are left with very understandable english sentences.

    if you are hungry make a sandwich

    make a sandwich if you are hungry

So unless english is a second language to you, it should be fairly easy to understand.

If you pay attention to how people use those different forms in english, you will also notice that the infix form of “if” tends to be used for simple short sentences. Which is exactly how I use it in Perl and Raku.

    sub factorial ( UInt $n ){
      return 1 if $n == 0;
      return 1 if $n == 1;

      return $n * factorial($n - 1)
    }

Though I might consider using `when` instead.

    sub factorial ( UInt $_ ){
      return 1 when 0;
      return 1 when 1;

      return $_ * factorial($_ - 1)
    }

Of course a junction would be useful

    sub factorial ( UInt $_ ){
      return 1 when 0|1;

      return $_ * factorial($_ - 1)
    }

You are probably having fits with that to.

The thing is, that also reads fairly well in english.

    return one when [it is] zero or one

Often times in informal english the “it is” in such a sentence is left off for brevity. So I left it off, because we are obviously talking about “it" (`$_`). I mean, what else could we be talking about? I could easily see this being said as a response to another person.

    > Alice: What result should we give the user?
    >
    > Bob: Return one when zero or one.  
    > Otherwise multiply it by …

You are probably thinking that communicating with a computer should be more formal. You should also be wearing nicely ironed clothes with a jacket and tie.

The problem with that is that you aren't communicating with a computer. You are communicating with everyone that is going to read your code. Reading a technical manual can be very tiring for even the most stoic of readers.

I prefer to read a well written novel. Good Perl and Raku code often reads more like a novel than a technical manual. Even when it is kept very precise about its semantics.

Which means that when I am done doing something in Perl or Raku, I want to continue doing more of that. I don't want to stop.

Sometimes I will find myself re-reading the same line repeatedly at 3am.

---

Further, note how I used the infix form of “if”.

    return 1 if $n == 0;
    return 1 if $n == 1;

The result on the left is very simple. Not only is it simple, it is the same for both lines.

It is very common to use it in this manner. Where they sit at the very beginning of a function as a kind of guard clause. The real important bit is the right part of the lines. Which actually stands out more than the left half, because it is closer to the center of the screen.

After those two lines, we know two things about `$_`. It is neither a `0` or a `1`, because we already dealt with both cases. So we don't have to worry about them in the rest of the function.

For the most part, when I see a line like that I know that I can safely skip over it. That is because it is almost only ever used for that type of thing. As a way to deal with simple cases early in the lifetime of a function. It also means that I can very quickly glean the information I need for that very same reason.

---

People tend to have a lot of bad things to say about Perl and Raku.

Almost everyone who has used them enough to get comfortable with either of the two languages would say just about the opposite to most of those things.

Basically, it's bad in theory, but it's good in practice.

Reminds me of a video “Clay Shirky on Love, Internet Style” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs (9m14s long)

Particularly this line:

> And it was at that moment that I understood what was going on. Because they didn't care.

> They didn't care that they had seen it work in practice, because they already knew it couldn't work in theory.

---

I very much agree that it is far more important to be easy to read. Which is why I find Perl and Raku to be awesome.

I can write things in the most readable way for a person as possible, rather than the only way the compiler can understand.

Clay Shirky on Love, Internet Style. He has several great talks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs

Also relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs (About support contracts vs. community support)

Source: http://youtu.be/Xe1TZaElTAs

You may also find this video of interest: Clay Shirky on Love, Internet Style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs

⬐ kinleyd

Thanks, that was an inspiring video. I've already come to appreciate the power of community (love, according to Clay :), in communities like dd-wrt and cyanogenmod where the quality of collectively contributed firmware beats by miles that provided by the parent hardware vendors. And what's even better is that those enjoying these benefits are willing to give back - best example was when cyanogenmod called for contributions to buy new servers recently. The response was overwhelming and they received more than they needed in no time at all.

The other nice story carried on HN was how Linux Torvalds was remembered by the Red Hat folks with a nice payback in shares as a thank you for everything he did.

The internet really helps too, allowing a dollar here and a dollar there to really add up when genuinely appreciative people make voluntary donations. Bram Cohen is a good example here, who receives well deserved donations from all the folks who love bittorrent.

I believe this model of giving (and the return karma) augurs well for society. There is room for a lot of hope and optimism.

Reminded me of Ise Shrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_Shrine) and also Shirky's reference to it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs). The point there is that function is also a meaningful definition of is-ness.

Besides, aren't all of the cells in a human body replaced every x years already?

⬐ DarkShikari

Brain cells aren't normally replaced regularly, AFAIK, so they're an exception to the rule.

"The little guy with the big knife is Tsunenori Iida. He speaks not as an individual but as an emanation, the present voice, of the generations whose blood flows in him and who held the long knife in lifetimes before him, just as he speaks of Masahisa as if he were the same Masahisa who wrought the first samurai sword, in the days of dark mist. Thus it is that he tells me he's been here since 1861, during the Tokugawa shogunate, when this city, Tokyo, was still called Edo."

Reminds me of the metaphor Clay Shirky uses in his "Love, Internet Style" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs) speech. He talks about the Ise Shinto shrine, which the Japanese claim to be 1300 years old even though the building itself is rebuilt periodically. The Japanese think it is 1300 years old because the function of the shrine has existed for 1300 years, just like the function of this man has been around since 1861, even if he, the mere physical manifestation of this function, has not. Interesting way to think and define oneself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs ?

⬐ kapitti

Thanks!

⬐ jimbokun

What a wonderful sermon.

In today's society, when we want to criticize some kind of discourse we often say it is "preachy," implying like a sermon, which is understood to be the lowest form of human communication or something.

I never understood that mindset. As Clay Shirky demonstrates here, the sermon can be the most uplifting and inspiring and motivating form of communication we have. Turning off the brain is not inherent in the form at all, quite the opposite.

As another example, Barack Obama's oratory is undeniably influenced and inspired by sermons. Particularly, the African American sermon, perhaps the highest form of this art. The obvious example being Martin Luther King, Jr., a good candidate for greatest speaker of the 20th century.

And if you don't think Clay Shirky's talk here is sermon like, may I suggest you just haven't heard many sermons, or at least not many good ones.

⬐ jmtulloss

I like how your first line is a response and the rest is a preemptive defense of the response.

I do agree with you though.

⬐ rcoder

The most salient point, to my mind, was this line: "they didn't care that they saw it work in practice, since they already knew it couldn't work in theory."

That, and "Perl is a Shinto shrine." Larry Wall himself could hardly spin a better catchphrase.

⬐ jcromartie

Larry Wall might say "Perl is a house-church".

⬐ mleonhard

Is Perl like the shrine in that it doesn't change or improve? I think programming language technology has improved but Perl has yet to catch up. Nowadays one can be much more productive in other languages.

⬐ mst

Really? I think you need to look at

http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?MooseX::Declare

- perl5 the core language is flexible enough that you can extend the language up towards the problem from perl-space pretty well. It's one of the things I learned to love in lisp.

⬐ kwamenum86

These types of post are the reason I spend hours on HN. It is variable reinforcement really- the really great posts come at pseudo random intervals (make n a random number and assume you hit a great post after n clicks, then reset n). And then you become addicted.

I just hit n. I can finally go to sleep.

⬐ dmoney

Glad I could help.

⬐ ntoshev

Clay Shirky is a very insightful thinker about the technology impact on society, and his presentations are top notch too.

If you want the essence of the insights he has to offer, see his TED talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPQViNNOAkw

⬐ kylec

I love you guys

⬐ wheels

Kyle, you're not getting my Bud Light.

⬐ Herring

I find it slightly humorous that he's assuming 'edifice' and 'process' are different and yet he's working with computers. He even mentions longevity a few times.

⬐ kqr2

Ise Shrine which Clay Shirky mentions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_Shrine

It is rebuilt every 20 years and is on iteration 61.

⬐ nihilocrat

The fact that a big part of the tradition is "passing on" the techniques used to build the shrine reminds me of this: http://xkcd.com/297/

⬐ dood

See also the Ship of Theseus paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

⬐ Herring

... It takes a philosopher to create paradoxes out of well understood physical processes.

⬐ Retric

Philosopher's assume words have meaning this is the root of all their failings.

⬐ peregrine

I should send this to people at work, probably call me gay. :)

⬐ jmtame

Aww.. if they do they're probably using c++

⬐ lsb

Colin Powell: Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he's a Christian. He's always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America.

Same with being gay.

⬐ mynameishere

Enough! Grow a fucking spine already!

Islam is religious absolutism. Under an Islamic regime, you're a Muslim or you're a dhimmi or you're a slave. If you self-identify as a Muslim then you are incompatible with every significant ideal of America.

⬐ thomasmallen

You seem to have very absolutist views about Islam.

⬐ pg

Please stop.

⬐ jmtulloss

Fact is, "You're gay" is still a common, juvenile slam.

⬐ r00k

Don't let the crappy title fool you--this is worth watching.

⬐ Alex3917

It's interesting to contrast the comments in this thread to the comments on Bruce Schneier's review of the book:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=376380

⬐ wynand

I was really inspired after the video and decided to go help out in some IRC channels and mailing lists.

And then I was reminded why I stopped doing that a long time ago: there is so much snarkiness. None of these lists or IRC channels ever seem to take a stance against this behaviour and it seems to me as if there are often self-selecting groups of snarky "locals" who drive a list or IRC channel.

On the contrary, I do think that HN is fairly close to what he was describing and is the main reason why I've stopped frequenting other similar sites, but remained here.

⬐ mmmurf

I agree. I can never really get into IRC as there are always three condescending comments to every helpful one and it's like a high school clique with password protected rooms and inside jokes.

I also agree about HN, it seems to have managed to avoid a lot of that.

⬐ gur

No one contributes to the community for the money, yet most of you guys are constantly talking about getting rich -- or at least profitable. Paradox?

⬐ jmtulloss

Nope. You need to be profitable to continue doing what you love. There's no paradox if your motivation to make money is to continue being able to contribute for free.

⬐ l_frequency

Gotta love Shirky. I've spent countless hours listening to his talks on youtube. Dunno what it is about the way he delivers it.

⬐ pistoriusp

This is off-topic, but does anyone else think Clay Shirky looks like Tom Hanks in this video?

⬐ pistoriusp

I'm not the only person who thinks so:

  "Clay Shirky looked like Tom Hanks but I didn't ask him about his latest movie role (I hope)."

(http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2003/11/usercreated_co...)

  "If Shirky ever has a movie made of his life, it’ll have to 
  be Tom Hanks that stars. I think he sounds and looks a lot like Shirky!"

(http://blogs.technet.com/johmar/archive/2008/09/18/web-2-0-e...)

  "Imagine hair on him and Shirky looks, talks and acts exactly like Tom Hanks. Not just similar, but eerily exact."

(http://www.chrisroberson.net/2008/04/cognitive-surplus.html)

  "One thing I’ve definitely gotta say about this guy though is that he sounds 
  and looks a lot like Tom Hanks. Not that there’s anything wrong with that."

(http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=5885#comment-229940)

⬐ juliend2

awesome talk. I love him.

⬐ hualibaobao

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⬐ sidsavara

This is actually a really great discussion on community support for software development versus "corporate" support, using a really interesting metaphor of a japanese shrine.

I enjoyed the video and am voting it up, but I think you should change the title, because I was expecting some cheesy dating video...

..I know, what does that say about me, that THINKING that, I still clicked through...

Perhaps add to the end of it - The Longevity of FOSS.

⬐ dood

It isn't really about community vs corporate support. He is making a much broader point that the internet (and other modern tech) is enabling like-minded people to work together to produce stable and effective systems purely for the love of it, on a previously unimaginable scale.

⬐ noelchurchill

I agree, this video was a lot better than I was expecting.

⬐ stcredzero

This is a key notion with regards to the success of programming languages. Programming languages are only partly a technological artifact. The sociological and cultural aspects are just as important, if not more so.

⬐ dmoney

Perhaps add to the end of it - The Longevity of FOSS.

Good idea. Alas, it seems to be beyond the edit time limit.

⬐ tremendo

+1. By title alone I would have never cared. Only because it's here in HN did I click through to these comments and based on yours I decided to actually watch the video.

It's a 9 min talk by Clay Shirky basically praising the hacker spirit.

⬐ diN0bot

The sense of community and collaboration has been on the ris for years now. I think it's evident in the open source spirit and the increasing usability and documentation of open source tools. The django and python Q&A communities I'm part of also have this "collaboration" tilt.

Still, when I think "hacker" I think solitary, ego-driven programmer, doing immature things to prove himself. I think of the anger and non-compromise that comes out of some of the old beards.

If "hacker" has been reappropriated that's great. I don't mean to quibble over words--regardless of what we call things, I am very optimistic by the growing team-work and social awareness of internet communities.

⬐ tremendo

Yes, we're asuming different meanings for "hacker", and I was hoping for the one I take is the more accepted one for this site (Hacker News), those who are "trying to write interesting software, and for whom computers are just a medium of expression" (http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html)

In any case, point taken as I probably got a bit carried away on my comment above, the talk referenced is more about the collaborative benefits new technologies bring to us.

⬐ nihilocrat

It also has some takeaway about how to build your product.

Make a product which the users are going to be excited about and want to preserve, so they will help other people trying to use it.

There seem to be enough people around who don't get that, that it's a non-obvious insight. It's probably because they are just like the "C++ people" in the story, though; they've already made up their minds before you started talking to them.