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Reminds me of The Lost Art of Steam Heating by Dan Holohan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw

⬐ dredmorbius

Excellent video and information, as well as a rabbit hole to dive into (Holohan's work).

Thanks!

Tangential topic : There was a post on HN a while back about steam heating. This talk on YouTube was linked. It was really informative: https://youtu.be/TQB0KK2rxcw

As I suspected before clicking, that article cites that explanation as being given by steam heating system expert Dan Holohan. He has a talk up on YouTube that I came across a few years ago. It is interesting on a number of levels, and I recommend giving it a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw

"When you see something that's old and it's been there for a long time and it's working, don't laugh at it."

(From a not-really-related yet quite interesting talk I watched a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw#t=31m0s --- also featured on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18430512)

⬐ nkurz

A couple of comments here mention how great steam heat feels, apart how noisy it is. This is ironic, as one of Holohan's main points is that when operating properly, steam heat is silent. The problem is that most people have never experienced a properly operating steam heat system. Here's some quotes from the intro to his Greening Steam (which is a great book, which you should definitely read if you have a steam heat system):

Steam Heat Should Be Silent

Water hammer, that banging and knocking that is so prevalent in steam heating, is not normal. Don't let anyone tell you that it is.

Water hammer is also destructive. It can break pipes from fittings and cause injury. It's not normal. It has definite causes, and you can make it go away.

Hissing air vents aren't normal. In a well-balanced steam system, you should never hear air venting. When a vent makes noise, it's trying to tell you that it's handling too much air.

Holohan's main conceit is that there are very few plumbers who understand steam heat, and as a result, there are very few systems that work as designed by the "Dead Men". The idea that steam heat is inherently noisy is one of the main myths that he wants to dispel.

Tying this back to HN, there's probably some useful parallel here to systems architecture and maintenance programming. How many systems will keep working as well as they were designed after several generations of "repairs" have been performed on them? How can one design systems to make it more likely that they will continue to work as designed?

⬐ emddudley

> How can one design systems to make it more likely that they will continue to work as designed?

Perhaps it would need to be antifragile in some way, and have direct immediate feedback on "bad repair" vs "good repair".

⬐ None

None

⬐ romed

The problem as usual is with the users not the system. If anyone in your building turns the valve on their radiator off (because their space is overheated) then the water will condense and when they open it again the entire system will hammer, forever, until the building engineer drains it. As for the air vents it seems that building supervisors just can’t resist painting them, which renders them inoperable. They should know better.

So in summary steam is wonderful as long as humans don’t get involved.

⬐ PhasmaFelis

> The problem as usual is with the users not the system. If anyone in your building turns the valve on their radiator off (because their space is overheated) then the water will condense and when they open it again the entire system will hammer, forever, until the building engineer drains it.

If that's true, it would definitely be a problem with the system, not the user. A heating system that malfunctions semi-permanently if you turn off one radiator is not a good heating system, and it's not reasonable to demand that residents swelter in their rooms to accommodate the system's failings.

⬐ jayd16

>The problem as usual is with the users not the system.

Never the right attitude. If users have constant issues with a system, its a system flaw. You can't upgrade the users.

⬐ dsfyu404ed

>You can't upgrade the users.

Yes you can. It's called education. People are generally not idiots. Make it easy for them to learn how to do something right and the overwhelming majority will do that thing right. It's when you leave them to figure out something they have no domain knowledge in on their own that causes problems.

⬐ PhasmaFelis

Operating a radiator should not require education or domain knowledge. Its only affordances are "turn up" and "turn down," and neither of those should lead to a failure mode other than touching hot metal and singing yourself.

⬐ TeMPOraL

> You can't upgrade the users.

You absolutely can. You just have to state and keep stating that the system is for adults who can be bothered to read half a page of instructions once in their life, instead of fostering a culture of ignorance.

We have a similar problem with software UX, too.

⬐ PhasmaFelis

People are not going to read and remember detailed instructions for every one of the hundreds of devices in their daily lives. If that means they're stupid, then you have to design for stupids. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

You're quite right that this is an ongoing problem in software UX. The problem is devs who insist that the user should accommodate the software rather than the other way around.

⬐ thrower123

It's pretty frigging amazing though with software that people will absolutely not spend a half hour reading documentation before they just start trying to poke and prod at things. In other industries, you have to go through mandatory trainings on a regular basis on your equipment.

⬐ PavlovsCat

> If that means they're stupid, then you have to design for stupids.

No, because it means they're being stupid, not that they are "stupids", like it's a zodiac sign. So they should stop being stupid.

> The problem is devs who insist that the user should accommodate the software rather than the other way around.

Writing good documentation is accomodating users, and there is a lot of stuff that is very simple but still can't keep to a common way of how things work (because it's all mostly fluff functionally anyway, and needs to "differentiate itself" in some gimmicky way), and none of it has decent documentation -- so people are left to ask each other in random forums or elsewhere how anything works. IMO that's being lazy, and not paying users for work the developers should have done.

If it was designed "for stupids", it would have very clear instructions in big letters which still would hold true after 20 years, because "stupids" don't always have the latest thing.

https://www.gpsoft.com.au/help/opus12/index.html

Nobody remembers that, or reads all of it just for fun. But it's all there if you need, thorough and up-to-date. Old Opera was also like that, and none of my non-techie friends or relatives ever had problems with it. I'm sure many other programs still are, as in they do follow allll the best practices an application "designed for dummies" would, but then they also have a good documentation, and maybe a CLI interface and other things a programmer might want so called power-users (as opposed to powerless consumers?) to have. Current users are getting ripped off by being trained and conditioned by marketing departments, not peers and teachers with good intent.

⬐ TeMPOraL

> power-users (as opposed to powerless consumers?)

I like to think of it in terms of frequency/duration of use. There may not be many (relatively) "power users", but there are a lot of 9-5 users. People who have to work with a piece software 8+ hours a day at work, day in, day out. If a piece of software has near-flat learning curve, it's contributing a lot to the misery of those people. Like, 6 hours straight of clicking through a slow web UI kind of misery, where unbloating the UI would cut that literally in half, adding keyboard shortcuts would cut that in half again, and a semi-decent batch mode would let them be done in 15 minutes, go get coffee, and start working on something else.

Where's the "value" such "user-friendly" software provides the users again?

And here also lies the answer to the age-old question - why people use Microsoft Excel for everything? Because it's a tool for "power users", with no ceiling in sight. It's flexible where most dedicated software is stiff, which gives people a way to optimize their work.

⬐ PavlovsCat

I also think saying "we don't bother with documentation or configuration because nobody reads or uses that" is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

> Treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you help them to become what they are capable of being.

-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

That always risks being patronizing, but at least we should allow users options and deeper documentation, for those who want to use them -- they shouldn't get punished by being restricted to the lowest common denominator. That doesn't mean there can't be friendly defaults, "wizards", and whatnot.

⬐ TeMPOraL

> I also think saying "we don't bother with documentation or configuration because nobody reads or uses that" is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh yes, and it's so deeply ingrained in the culture.

At my previous job, our customer made us use a pretty crappy, proprietary integrated system for task management, bug tracking and version control. Everyone hated it with passion. It took me over a year to finally stop and think for a moment - that maybe it has some more efficient modes of working, and maybe there is some logic to its organization? I clicked Help -> Manual and, lo and behold, I was looking at a large compiled help file describing everything. Every functionality, the fundamental concepts behind the software's UI and data representation. Hell, it even mentioned the API. 30 minutes later, I still didn't like the software, but I was finally somewhat comfortable with it.

I was probably the first person to do that in that company. A lesson here is that unfortunately, the instinct to bitch about software instead of trying to find a manual is strong even in power users. I took that lesson to heart, and these days I'm e.g. very friendly with Info pages in my OS. Turns out if software you regularly use has a decent manual, reading it (or at least skimming, and I mean cover to cover) has absurdly high payoff.

> they shouldn't get punished by being restricted to the lowest common denominator. That doesn't mean there can't be friendly defaults, "wizards", and whatnot.

Exactly. Lower the start of the learning curve, but don't flatten it entirely, don't dumb down your application for the sake of "easy to use". Power always comes with some amount of complexity and learning.

⬐ TeMPOraL

> People are not going to read and remember detailed instructions for every one of the hundreds of devices in their daily lives.

I'm not saying hundreds. I'm saying couple dozen. Anything you interact with more often than twice in a lifetime. Nobody complains that they have to learn how to use a pen. Or a bike. Or a car. Or a gas stove. Or a microwave oven. People just suck it up, spend the necessary effort, and enjoy significantly improved capabilities. If you use something daily, you owe it to yourself to learn how to operate it.

What we have with modern UX trends is a culture that despises learning. It's a marketing artifact - a software sells by first impression, not by value delivered, so the less learning user needs to get first results, the easier it is to sell a product or service.

> You're quite right that this is an ongoing problem in software UX. The problem is devs who insist that the user should accommodate the software rather than the other way around.

I meant precisely the opposite and you know it :). The rationale is this: the only way to have software that can be used by a newcomer to its full potential within first 5 seconds of exposure is to dumb the software down to near-uselessness. Which is the dominating trend nowadays. Lowering the beginning of the learning curve by flattening the entire curve creates a hard ceiling on utility of a piece of software (or hardware). If there's nothing to learn, the user is forever stuck at beginner productivity levels. Which means the software isn't really providing much value (it probably provides negative value if the user was forced to upgrade from older software which allowed for mastery).

⬐ anthonybsd

> then the water will condense and when they open it again the entire system will hammer, forever, until the building engineer drains it

That's not true. I've had issues with my house steam system in the past where I added too much water to the furnace and draining the furnace did the trick. Any excess water will simply turn to steam and cycle itself out of the system.

⬐ sigi45

When the user doesn't understand the system, than it is the systems fault.

⬐ romed

I can't believe you are being downvoted for this. It's absolutely correct and consistent with my point: a system that's abstractly superior but which cannot survive contact with humans is not a good one.

⬐ nkurz

If anyone in your building turns the valve on their radiator off (because their space is overheated) then the water will condense and when they open it again the entire system will hammer, forever, until the building engineer drains it.

Theoretically, I don't think this is correct. And in practice, I'm sure it's not always true. That is, I've tuned up a steam system using Holoway's advice, and there was no problem with turning individual radiators on or off.

In normal operation, the steam is condensing in the radiator, and then draining back to the boiler by gravity. Opening the valve after a period of nonoperation is not significantly different than the rush of condensation one gets at system start up when the radiator is cold. If the pipes are layed out correctly, when the valve is opened the water will drain back to the boiler with no outside action required.

What is true is that the standard "one pipe" steam radiators work poorly when the user decides they want half the heat, and turns the steam valve halfway. In this case, the higher speed of the incoming steam through the smaller opening prevents the water from flowing out, and the radiator works poorly. The correct approach to variable heat on one-pipe steam systems is an adjustable exit air valve. Still, this should also "fix itself" quickly as soon as the shut-off valve is fully opened.

⬐ Kadin

> The correct approach to variable heat is an adjustable exit air valve.

I always wondered why the radiators in some buildings had two apparent temperature controls, one at the bottom of one side (generally a big gate valve) and another at the top of the other side (which I presume is the "exit air valve").

As a student, nobody ever told us how to actually regulate the heat, so there was a lot of randomly opening and closing valves until the thing either got hot or cooled down as needed. Or, more commonly, you just ran the thing full blast all the time and opened a window when it got too hot, titrating the cold air from outside against the overwhelming heat from the radiator.

A couple of laminated instructions stapled to the wall near each radiator probably would have made the system perform much better.

⬐ jadams5

I live in a 90 year old house that still uses the original steam heated radiators. It's actually been a lot of fun learning about the old technology with its pros and cons.

As an example, I always assumed that the radiators were always just full of steam while running, but the systems actually work by cycling between steam production and condensation phases. There's an alcohol filled bladder at the base of every radiator that boils and expands when the steam fills the radiator, sealing off the flow at that point, forcing the steam to route around to the next radiator. Once all the radiators seal off the pressure in the system rises, triggering the boiler to shut down. The water condenses inside the radiators as they emit their heat and cool, the bladders open, the water drains back down to the boiler, and if the home temp is still low the cycle starts again. Who knew?

For now we're actually planning on keeping it around while it's all in good working order.

⬐ nkurz

Interesting. I think the system you are describing is a variation of a "two pipe steam" system that is not very common these days. More common systems have have an air vent, and do run on a continuous cycle.

Holohan describes the differences here: https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/a-steam-heating-...

He also points out that the failure point of the system you have is that the "steam traps" tend to fail frequently and silently. The system still heats, but runs less efficiently. He says the traps typically have only a 3 year lifespan.

⬐ jadams5

Yep, it's a two pipe system. One of the first things I did was verify that the traps were all functioning. Amazingly enough, they were!

The house was built in the 20's by a commercial plumber who put in some more commercial-style amenities including some state of the art for the era tankless flush-valve toilets. I love them, wife hates them.

⬐ soperj

>tankless flush-valve toilets

Quickly tried to find a picture of this, but don't know what exactly i'm looking for. Can you post a link?

⬐ jadams5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushometer

edit: It's just like what you'd find in any modern commercial building in the US, just with a much older form factor of toilet. When we moved in I got curious why most new homes don't have them. Found out that they don't use any more water than a normal toilet, but they do require a higher water flow rate. The high flow rate requires at least a 2" water main into the house (which we have), while most modern residential construction uses a 1" or less.

⬐ jhallenworld

Get the book, it's awesome:

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Steam-Heating/dp/0996477241/...

I had oil fired steam heat (live around Boston). Back when heating oil hit $5 / gallon, I got rid of it. It was costing me $3800 / year, but the efficient gas furnace that replaced it costs $700 / year. I'm sure this will only last as long as the fracking boom, but it definitely already paid for the installation.

So now my most expensive utility is water ($1700 / year).

⬐ seidleroni

I read his book by the same name last year when I moved into a house with steam heating. The book goes into great detail and helped me resolve some banging pipes which kept waking me up in the middle of the night. This was after I had 2 heating "experts" come try and help. As Dan says, steam works great but only dead men know how to do it properly.

⬐ DanHolohan

Thanks for the kind words and for your interest in steam heating. There's a delicious amount of history wrapped up in this stuff.

I gave that talk at The General Society of Mechanics and Tradesmen of the city of New York, not at The Arsenal. I did talk about the Arsenal, though. That's a wonderful place. GSMT is at 20 W. 44th Street in Manhattan. It's a landmarked building, across the street from the Harvard Club. Visiting there is like watching Night at the Museum. I'm currently V.P of the Society.

I founded HeatingHelp.com in 1997. I retired in 2016 and our daughter, Erin Holohan Haskell, now owns the site. It's a terrific resource for heating system, both old and new.

Dan

⬐ larrywright

In my younger years, I lived in an apartment in an older house (early 1900s). The house had steam heat (and no air, which was kind of awful). Steam heat is a bit noisier and I’m guessing the systems are finicky, but the heat they produce is incredibly comfortable. I live in the Midwest, so temperatures can get quite cold. I felt warmer in that apartment than in any other place I’ve lived, and it’s not a drying heat the way that forced air is.

The house was a bit of a dump, and the quality of the heat didn’t really make up for the lack of air conditioning, but I still have fond memories of that steam heat 20+ years later.

⬐ bunderbunder

I currently live in my first ever apartment that's heated by a furnace. We've seriously discussed moving again just to go back to having steam heat. The dry air from the forced air system makes the winter that much less pleasant.

The previous place had a fairly modern boiler, no more than a decade or two old. Being a tenant, I have the luxury of getting to largely ignore these things, but, from what I could tell, it required less maintenance than the current place's furnace.

⬐ sandworm101

Dry air is only bad in dry climates. Im in the pacific northwest, a literal rain forest. Moisture is constant. We want that dry air to keep the house free of mold. And it can do a gew things steam cannot, such as move air around without adding heat, a great form of air conditioning without actual AC.

⬐ wallace_f

To play devil's advocate: can't you just boil a pot of water, run a hot bath, or just buy some humidifiers to improve this?

⬐ thrower123

That is the simplest method. I grew up with a hot-air wood furnace in the basement, and we just stuck a giant galvanized pan on top at the start of the ducting. About once a week I'd have to fill it back up.

Man, I miss wood heat.

⬐ euroclydon

Having N sources of dry air (the vents) and one or two sources of humidity, scattered over your house, coming in and off all the time is a lot let desirable than a static system linked to your opening and closing of doors plus house leaks. It’s difficult to tune.

⬐ wallace_f

Sure, less desirable, but you you can buy n humidifiers

⬐ astura

What maintenance does a forced air furnace need? Other than air filter changes?

I've only had steam heat.

I have a modern boiler and the only maintenance I have to do (so far) is pay a professional to do the yearly servicing.

⬐ larrywright

It depends on the model, quality and features. The one that came with my current house was very finicky and needed a fair amount of handholding (including pouring water into a little tube at the start of the season - something about a proper vacuum). I replaced it a few years ago with a new, near-top-of-line Trane with an air filtration system and a whole house humidifier. This one only needs to have the filter vacuumed monthly (three-stage electrostatic filter), and to have the humidifier water panel replaced once a year. Otherwise it’s basically no maintenance.

Any forced-air system has ductwork, however, and that can get filthy over time and need cleaning.

⬐ bunderbunder

I don't know about furnaces in general. It's just that the old place's steam heating never really gave us any problems, whereas our furnace has needed repairs multiple times over the past few years.

Maintenance was bleeding the pipes occasionally, which I generally found to be less of a bother than replacing filters.

⬐ jackhack

former HVAC tech here. Sorry for the wall of text but here's most of what I would do as a seasonal change-over inspection:

Every year, a full visual inspection of the heat exchanger, especially important after 5 years of life. We're looking for the first signs of perforation, and/or cracks. A "smoke test" isn't sufficient.

Visual inspection of ductwork take-offs on plenum - leaks, seals, etc. Same for system cabinet.

Check the safety switches -- roll out/limit sensor (millivolt), draft induction (exhaust blower) pressure switch, cabinet switches, etc.

Clean the flame sensor.

Visual inspection on the ignitor. Cracks = replace. Check values on start capacitor for blower motor. Replace if > +/- 15% of spec.

Blow out P-trap on condensor drain (only applies to condensing furnaces, of course -- the >85% efficiency models, but that's most of what is installed these days). Oil blower motor and draft induction fan bearings. Observe flame color.

After 10 years, or as needed, check exhaust with combustion analyzer for proper C0/C02 range.

Observe 2 startup/cool down cycles for proper operation. Look for proper ignition, flame color/depth/shape, listen for odd sounds that would indicate issues (vibration, flexing, etc.)

Replace the filter unless it's obviously new. (btw, This filter is there to protect the unit from dust/lint, not there to clean the air in the house.)

Replace CO detector battery Not just "ask homeowner to do it" but do it myself. Replace detector out of date (they only last 10 years or so). This is mandatory if you are operating a fuel burning appliance. And Remind homeowner to change smoke detector batteries.

Present a written report of all findings. Compare to last year's report -- look or trends. Keep copy of new on on record at the shop.

This takes about an hour. If your "HVAC Guy" just shimmies into your crawlspace or attic for 15 minutes before climbing back out and saying "everything looks great, see ya in the spring" you're risking your safety and being cheated. Most don't do the whole job. Also, what most shops call a "tune up" isn't anything of the sort; at best it's a cursory visual inspection with gauges on the A/C unit and a check of the start/run capacitors. Most don't even bother to oil bearings.

Every shop is different. There is a wide spectrum of hacks and pros.

⬐ astura

Thanks for the info. :)

So a forced air furnace is basically the same as a boiler where you just call a technician to do your "yearly servicing?"

The company that services my boiler spend well over an hour on it, so I'll assume I'm not getting ripped off there?

⬐ larrywright

A good humidifier is a must with forced air heating. The Wirecutter usually has some good recommendations for those.

⬐ overcast

Whole house bypass humidifiers are cheap ~$500, and pretty quick to setup and easy to maintain. It sits inline where the dry hot air exits the furnace. You tap into the hot water line from the boiler, and a little solenoid spills water onto an evaporator pad. Replace that once a season. Amazing how quickly your humidity will ramp up after that gets in there. Definitely should be mandatory with ANY forced air furnace.

⬐ JackFr

"If you see something that's old and it's been there for a long time and it's working, don't laugh at it."

⬐ dugditches

Here's an article on this talk: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/04/steamed-the-jo...

This type of heating is still used in 'intrinsically safe' environments(where no natural gas/electric heaters can operate safely). Lots of banging and knocking pipes.

⬐ subpixel

A section of downtown Cleveland is still heated using a closed-loop steam-powered district system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timevanson/28933250436

⬐ pentagonpapers

Downtown Philadelphia as well. In fact, the small access street behind my work has a giant boiler in a back of an 18 wheeler that seems to be hooked up to our building while they are working on pipes and such. it's crazy! It was rented which i think was weird, there was a sign on the side to powerhouse, a quick google reveals the link below

https://www.powerhouse.com/boiler-rental/trailer-mounted-boi...

⬐ frankus

A few years ago I was looking at the specific heat of common substances and water is pretty much off the charts compared with everything else (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/sphtt.html).

But the heat of vaporization is also huge: it takes about the same energy to boil a quantity of water as it does to take it from 0°C to 100°C.

The main downside is that the vaporization/condensation has to take place at 100°C, which is arguably a bit hotter than is ideal for safe space heating. Also the water returning to the boiler might not be cold enough to condense out the water vapor from the fuel (more important in fuels like natural gas with a big difference between HHV and LHV).

I've sometimes wondered if it would be practical to operate a steam heating system at a partial vacuum so that the condensation/vaporization could occur at a lower temperature, but I haven't seen that done anywhere so I'm guessing the answer is no.

⬐ avhon1

> I've sometimes wondered if it would be practical to operate a steam heating system at a partial vacuum so that the condensation/vaporization could occur at a lower temperature

He actually talks about exactly this in the video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw&t=573

"You'll be sending steam up into the building at temperatures, in some cases, as low as 150 degrees" (83 degrees C)

⬐ userbinator

Look up "vacuum vapor heating" for more info --- quite clever to do it even without using a vacuum pump, just special vent valves.

⬐ nimbius

Im an engine mechanic at a small chain of midwestern shops, and Ive noticed the closer our location gets to the great lakes, the more likely the shop heat is going to be steam. The shop I work out of has reed radiators powered by a coal furnace. We use our Reznor gas units because nobodies ever cared to get the old system running again, but I feel like this would be a fun project.

⬐ jabl

Forgive the dumb question, but what's the point of these systems, compared to just using hot water?

Here in northern Europe, these systems are virtually unheard of. What's quite common, OTOH, are city-wide district heating systems, often run from the waste heat from electric power plants. IIRC the temperature of the heating water mains when going out from the plants is around 110C or so (it's water, not steam, due to it being slightly pressurized [1]). Each house or block then has it's own heat exchanger, used for heating the water that goes to the radiators (which IIRC is kept above 60C to avoid bacterial growth) as well as producing warm tap water.

[1] Which makes for a nice show when there's a break in the heating mains somewhere; lots of steam coming out of the ground.

⬐ nkurz

what's the point of these systems, compared to just using hot water?

The main advantage is probably that you don't need any pumps. This can increase efficiency, and removes a major point of failure.

The other big difference is that phase transition from water to steam is very high energy. By weight, steam transports 6x the heat of liquid water, and releases 5/6 of this as soon as it condenses back to water. Depending on the situation, this can be an advantage.

In general, I don't think that either system has a tremendous advantage -- they are just different. For modern systems, advantage probably leans to hot water.

⬐ sailfast

"By the way you're a good looking group. Thank you for taking care of yourselves. Last week I spoke to a group that was butt ugly and it was really difficult. Speaker's burden, so... thanks for taking care of yourselves" Now THAT is a technique haha.

This guy's so amped up and excited about this stuff it's amazing - even if you are not interested in steam heat, you are now!

EDIT: This presentation is also great - similar, but more history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgM0qCy5o4

⬐ ryanmercer

Is it a lost art? If I'm not mistaken it's very much a thing still on the east coast and in places like Iceland and parts of Russia.

⬐ kgilpin

I think it’s a lost art in that they aren’t being built any more, yet lots of people have them.

In any case I live in Massachusetts and had steam heat for many years and found these books super helpful. There are however some plumbers around here that know their way around these systems.

⬐ ot8

I think it may come back in about 10 years coupled with a solar thermal collector.

https://www.chalmers.se/en/departments/chem/news/Pages/Emiss...

⬐ jonbaer

One question I have with steam heating in say an old Brooklyn apartment building is how healthy could it possibly be after so many years? Also some of the valves are not really controllable, it's either you deal with extreme heat or you shut it entirely off (for the room).

⬐ tvprod1203

I've yet to watch the video, but it seems weird to see praise for steam heating systems to me when I've had literally nauseatingly overheated apartments due to it.

Was I just unlucky enough to have to cope with lowest-bidder systems?

⬐ astura

There's nothing particular about steam heating that will cause overheating on its own; it works identical to any other heating or cooling system; there's a thermostat where you set the temperature and it turns the system on and off to maintain the temperature at its set point. You change the set point if you are uncomfortable.

Sometimes for multi unit buildings the landlord or super controls the heat for the whole building, that can be a case of the heat being set hotter than the occupant prefers, or perhaps just due to poor maintenance the system isn't maintaining temperature properly. I'm not sure why they couldn't just turn off individual radiators in this case though.

A properly set up and maintained steam heating system keeps temperature properly and doesn't overheat the occupants.

⬐ tvprod1203

> I'm not sure why they couldn't just turn off individual radiators in this case though.

Mine had no valves or anything. If you wanted to turn it off, good luck.

⬐ bootlooped

I looked at an apartment that had steam heating via radiators in every room. The landlord was very adamant that the tenants were not to adjust the radiators. My guess as to why is that turning one off/down could make the others hotter.

⬐ tvprod1203

Reading up on some of the links provided in this thread, I think that would indicate a badly maintained system/too much pressure.

And I'm now quite sure I had to deal with a single-pipe system modified to not have individual valves. Quite insane, but I guess that's what cheap owners will do.

⬐ alexhutcheson

In NYC, the typical way this works out is that apartments on the lower floors get cold, because the buildings are uninsulated and hot air rises to the higher floors. They complain to the super, who cranks up the thermostat for the building until the lower floors are comfortable, and the upper floors are therefore stiflingly hot. Many people leave windows cracked open or even run their AC in the winter to overcome this.

⬐ ablation

Fascinating, thank you for posting. I'm always intrigued by steam systems in places like NYC.

⬐ JackFr

"Nothing happens until someone picks up a hammer"

⬐ None

None

⬐ randyrand

Great talk. Thanks Dan.

⬐ earthscienceman

It's so interesting to see this on Hacker News. Through the bizarre strange fortune of life I'm the owner of a mediocre building built in the late 1800s located in an old mining boom town. It has a very robust steam heating system in place but the town is absolutely in the middle-of-nowhere. The cost of getting someone to just look at the pipes is about $200, not to mention any work. Paid three different people to look at it and nobody knew up from down, got 3 radically different opinions on what should be done.

After a ridiculous amount of searching and reading, I've come to find that basically nobody knows what they're talking about on the subject. The advice online and in person essentially amounts to witchcraft. I noticed people using the same adjectives/verbs to describe steam-heating that sellers of essential oils use. Finding Dan Holohan's website was like finding a miracle. Steam heating is so simple and efficient but it was done in an era when documentation and standardization was more nonexistent than today. If you sit down and draw diagrams and think about the system you have in your house it becomes so simple... but without that hour of logic and shaping of the problem you get no where fast. It was such a good 'back to the basics' experience for me that I wouldn't trade for my doctorate degree.

⬐ segmondy

I own a 100yr old house, hot water radiators, all the radiators were busted when I bought it because it wasn't properly winterized. All the pros tried to get me to replace it with forced furnace. I ended up buying used steam radiators and doing everything myself for the fraction of the cost and it's been 10 yrs. You're absolute correct, draw a diagram, being at first principles and it's easy to reason about the system.

⬐ organsnyder

Our house is about the same age, and has a similar system (ours wasn't neglected, thankfully). I'd never consider trading it for forced air—it's completely quiet, very efficient (we got a new 95% efficiency boiler), and extremely comfortable.

⬐ jimktrains2

Many of the buildings in downtown Pittsburgh are still steam heated. I believe the same is true for Oakland (the university district of Pittsburgh).

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2013/02/14...

http://pacthermal.com/

⬐ gdubs

Are you hoping to maintain the system for historic reasons? If so, sounds like a fun project :)

If not, mini-split systems might be a good solution for upgrading the home's heating (and cooling).

⬐ ransom1538

There are buildings in SF that still use steam. There must be a maintainer there still alive.

⬐ chrisdhoover

Most homes in San Francisco have zero heat. Many added a gas wall heater in the late ‘50’s but they are a ridulcus heating method. To stay warm in Frisco, drink hot toddy’s, where three layers; t shirt, flannel shirt, hoody, rest in bed with you running laptop on you chest, and — go to the corner bar full of people and drink some more.

⬐ scottlocklin

I was horrified the first time I saw a gas wall heater. Gas fireplace to heat the outside! Even more horrified when my Lebanese roommate needed to keep the ambient temperature 85 using a gas wall heater.

⬐ emiliobumachar

Well, did any of the 3 radically different opinions on what should be done match your own?

⬐ wlesieutre

It's weird for me to think of this as a forgotten technology having gone to Penn State where all of campus was heated by a district steam system.

Between east and west campus, they have a capacity of 700,000 lbs of steam per hour.

https://opp.psu.edu/unit/steam-services

https://news.psu.edu/story/460837/2017/04/17/campus-life/one...

⬐ allday

In our little corner of northeast Ohio (east side inner ring Cleveland suburbs), the -majority- of homes use steam heating, as they were constructed in the late 19th and early 20th century. Never quite occurred to me that this is a historical/geographical oddity.

There's at least one HVAC company around here that still specializes in boilers and radiators. We had our boiler replaced last year and the system tuned up - there's hardly any water hammer or hissing now and as other commenters have mentioned, the heat feels great.

⬐ gh02t

Ditto, I went to NCSU and they have an extensive steam heating system. I believe chilled water is also used for cooling. We (semi-)famously have an extensive underground tunnel network across campus that people have broken into and explored.

⬐ jackhack

Duke University, just a few miles away from NC State, had a coal-fired boiler system (switched to NG in 2011) and a spur railroad line for delivery of that coal. One of the roads names bears this history, today : West Campus' Coal Pile Drive.

Article: https://www.miuraboiler.com/resources/news/blowing-off-steam

⬐ romed

Many universities and other institutions like hospitals are steam heated because they have the steam anyway from their own combined-cycle power plants. I guess this is a legacy of universities having power before widespread electrification? In any case it’s very efficient. Steam can provide not just heating but also cooling and refrigeration. If you already have the technical staff to run your own power station then maintaining steam distribution should cause you any additional headaches.

⬐ Kadin

Up until the advent of inexpensive heat pumps, using electricity for space heating wasn't very practical. There were some electrically-heated (using resistance-coils baseboards) in the 50s and 60s, I guess when they thought electricity would be "too cheap to meter" soon enough, but it requires electrical distribution infrastructure well above what you'd otherwise need for housekeeping loads.

The big reason for centralized steam rather than small boilers in each building was fuel. Penn State (and many other colleges / institutions in the northeast) was originally heated with coal. There was a rail spur that ran to the campus power plant for delivering it. Delivering coal to each building would have been a lot of effort, and negates the efficiency of a large boiler compared to small ones. So you create the steam in one place and then distribute the steam. (Also there used to be fairly strict rules on having a licensed "operating engineer" at each boiler when it was operating.)

With natural gas now being the dominant fuel, it's almost certainly more efficient to distribute the gas and then generate the steam (or hot water, much more common today) near the point of use, with a high-efficiency boiler/heater.

⬐ jcrawfordor

My employer has a campus similar in size to a midsize university, which formerly used district steam heating from a central boiler plant. About a decade ago it was decided that moving to a modern distributed system with a natural gas boiler in each building would net better energy and cost efficiency, and while the transition took several years and was fairly disruptive in terms of the construction in each building, it's ended up delivering as promised.

I just don't think central heating has the advantages today it used to, unless you're in the unusual situation that you have a "free" source of steam (e.g. from process equipment). The boilers used now are compact, low maintenance, and have impressive remote management features. The "steam plant" staff here went from a dozen operating a building to a computer workstation at the facilities operations desk for remote monitoring and a few roving maintenance technicians.

We are also currently transitioning from a central standby power plant to generators located at each building. This is being done for almost the exact same reasons - the generators today are small, low cost, perform testing and exercise automatically, and are remotely monitored.