HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ ilamont

Former 80s punk guitarist here. "It's really easy to make boring punk music" - so true! It was easy to identify the greats at that time, some of whom the narrator cites - Bad Brains, Minor Threat, DKs, etc. We found out about them through word of mouth, live shows, fanzines, listening to records at friends' places, or college radio. But man was it hard to write songs as good as that. And maybe the problem was we were listening to too much punk and hardcore and were determined to reject everything about "classic rock," and the 80s electronic influences that were taking over the pop charts.

These seminal hardcore bands not only had fantastically skilled musicians (including vocals), but also they were coming from a much different place than we assumed, something I didn't find out until later.

It's a mistake to think of them as amateurs who only knew the Sex Pistols and Ramones before they picked up their instruments. Bad Brains started out as a jazz/pop band. Greg Ginn of Black Flag also had some kind of jazz backgroud. I read somewhere that one of their favorite albums in the tour van in the early 80s was ZZ Top's Eliminator. Flea, who played bass in Fear before cofounding RHCP, was a high-level French Horn player in high school. East Bay Ray - surf and jazz. D Boon of the Minutemen studied flamenco guitar at one point.

There's a great book by Michael Azzerad (Our band could be your life, https://www.littlebrown.com/titles/michael-azerrad/our-band-...) which gets into the influences of many 80s/early 90s bands including Minor Threat, who late in their existence were veering off into U2 influenced rock.

I know hardcore is fast, but had no idea the BPM was 300-400 for many of these songs. I remember seeing the Circle Jerks once and their new bass player couldn't keep up. His hand was clearly in pain.

⬐ rufus_foreman

>> "It was easy to identify the greats at that time"

The slogan at the time was "kill your heroes". Hüsker Dü?

For me, the greats at that time, 1980's hardcore, were the kids in the pit. The kids putting on shows in basements. The kids making copies of copies of copies of cassette tapes of music recorded from a boombox while driving around a city two hours away at 2 AM in the morning on a college radio station because that's the only time they played hardcore on the radio and it wasn't sold in record stores in your city.

Bad Brains did not start out as a jazz/pop band. Darryl: "a lot of people try to misinterpret and say Bad Brains were jazz fusionists but we weren't. We were just teenagers that were looking into that style of music before we started to listen to punk rock music." They couldn't listen to hardcore because hardcore didn't exist yet, they had to help invent it. People exaggerate the musical background of those kids. And the importance of that musical background.

The music was dance music for pissed off teenage kids with shaved heads. It didn't need to be great. If you look at the back of the DOA record Bloodied but Unbowed, it says "we want to create a world so free we can run wild".

https://i.discogs.com/Oa4bo9uc2FZ0elSuP2u60tHbwXqvEPKdDLeSZa...

That's definitional hardcore. That's what is was about. That's what hardcore meant to me. It wasn't about chord progressions.

We failed. And now that world is gone to the point that few remember it ever existed.

⬐ spacemadness

A lot of musicians like music from a wide array of genres because the ideas connect in interesting ways and a general interest in music is why they are musicians. Jaz Coleman from Killing Joke conducts orchestras. Many people that define their lives around a genre have a hard time contemplating that, but it’s not surprising from a purely musical perspective.

⬐ scelerat

> maybe the problem was we were listening to too much punk and hardcore and were determined to reject everything about [not punk]

IMO a classic artistic trap, especially for those enamored with a particular genre. Also a musician here, who has seen plenty of copycat scene bands, as well as others who have transcended their niche partially by having rich and diverse sources of inspiration.

⬐ bugfix-66

Make it sound like what "Amyl & The Sniffers" are doing:

Guided By Angels: https://youtu.be/Z--D1flPLnk

Hertz: https://youtu.be/zb5Ja6V4OeY

Best modern punk band by a mile, lead singer is incredible!

⬐ gHA5

Thanks for posting this. Hertz is really good!

Edit: They're playing in my city tomorrow but it's sold out.

If anyone is looking to sell 1 or 2 tickets for Amyl and The Sniffers in Berlin on Nov 9, 2022, please comment or send me an e-mail.

⬐ erik_p

Totally worth seeing live

⬐ pringk02

This was quite interesting. I used to play in a lot of bands like these and wrote many songs and it's funny because although I have kind of basic musical theory knowledge, I often felt like I couldn't really map the riffs I wrote and liked back onto the theory frameworks beyond maybe sometimes some idea of modality.

⬐ issa

What bands were you in?

⬐ pringk02

None that ever done more than a demo now lost to the ether unfortuantely. Hardcore punk scene in Scotland in the 00's wasn't big and a bit incestuous.

⬐ issa

I was in a band called Good Clean Fun. In 2000 we played in Dundee, Edinburgh, and Glasgow. Definitely a small scene, but we had a GREAT time.

⬐ notahacker

I like 12tone, but I still think a punk fanzine from '77 nailed the spirit better with

"This is a chord. This is another. This is a third. Now form a band"

⬐ brudgers

Those fifteen year kids old whose lives Never Mind the Bollocks changed are sixty years old, now.

Arguing over the "spirit" of punk in 2022 is a full decade more absurd than arguing over the spirit of the Andrews Sisters would have been in 1977.

Or to put it another way, the only way to be into punk these days is to entirely miss its point.

YMMV.

⬐ notahacker

> Arguing over the "spirit" of punk in 2022 is a full decade more absurd than arguing over the spirit of the Andrews Sisters would have been in 1977.

Or the "spirit" of jazz in 1977 or the blues at more or less any point in the 20th century. I'm not sure the relative absurdity of arguing that musical genres have "spirit" or an ethos, or any sort of basic continuity is measured in years since first release...

And I don't think kids picking up guitars and tuning them to drop D to play one finger chords really fast are that much more influenced by '77 nostalgia or the barre chords in the little-remembered fanzine than music theory videos. But the basic approach changes a lot less than the ad hoc theory applied to it, or indeed the music.

⬐ brudgers

Today, electric guitar power chords signify conformity to grandpa’s musical traditions not youthful rebellion.

Barbershop quartet would be more daring.

⬐ agentwiggles

my mileage varies on this for sure. i take your point but idk. there's definitely a spectrum ranging from Greta Van Fleet to something like Black Midi (or insert other weird band I haven't heard of that makes the point)

⬐ brudgers

Black MIDI is post-punk since MIDI came in the 1980’s and Black MIDI only became possible years later when computers became much more powerful.

And of course, Black MIDI has a formalism consistent with academic music and modernist composition of the 20th century.

Which is to say, Black MIDI is avant-garde and insiders sitting at computer looking at notes on a screen.

There’s no outrage and nothing outrageous.

⬐ agentwiggles

I was referring to these guys (who I assume are named for the MIDI phenomenon you're referencing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebrpRKUMcss

I get the sense that I won't be able to post something you won't manage to find derivative and un-punk, but these guys are among the more unique modern guitar driven music I know of. YMMV.

⬐ brudgers

I just don’t think punk has been relevant after Thatcher and Regen, which means I am giving it more than a decade.

Certainly by 1990, rappers had take the mantle of “that’s not music” outrage, and sampling was becoming what was considered the talentless noise not at all musical.

I mean I know a few people who have been into punk for forty years. Some have grandkids.

There’s nothing wrong with guitar driven music. It is just old fashioned.

⬐ vanderZwan

That feels a bit unfair to 12tone, given that he starts off with addressing the question of "is applying music theory to punk not completely missing the point of a genre about fighting back against an unfair establishment?" and ends with coming back to that question with: "punk is about rage [against an unfair system] and a refusal to accept that fighting back is meaningless, everything else is window dressing".

He's not trying to "nail the spirit" and fully aware that his analysis is just window dressing at the end of the day

⬐ notahacker

It wasn't a criticism of the video. On the contrary, he largely gets it when he starts talking about how playing a guitar really quickly using power chords for timbre limits note sequences and eschews tonality, which is why there end up being a lot of call and response and variation-on-previous sequence type rhythmic patterns to analyse

But there's more thought involved in labelling the riffs in the video than composing them :D

⬐ squarefoot

I wasn't aware of that channel, thanks for posting. I also found his doodles distracting, although in a very positive way, they're beautiful. Took me a while to notice he's a leftie who can write and draw both ways. I'm a natural leftie writing left to right and for a while attempted to learn to handwrite as a right hand with mediocre results although my right hand is actually the one I use for precision work and can easily use it to write or do basic drawings on a whiteboard. As for drawing, I'm terrible no matter the hand I use.

⬐ silviot

I absolutely LOVE 12tone!

I'm not a musician, but I enjoy learning music theory concepts, and that channel for me is pure gold. I can understand half of what's said there, and still enjoy it a lot.

A couple of my favourite videos are:

* Why Does Metal Have To Be So Loud? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fEdIKG7pm8

* What We Get Wrong About Genres https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXOowACoUjE&t=478s

⬐ pestatije

I can't stand the visuals

⬐ coldtea

It's also quite meandering, and for people unfamiliar with music theory, it's probably not helping much.

I know several better channels for getting the theory - including analyzing genres or songs, but most are focused on instruments + theory or composing + theory.

⬐ IndySun

@coldtea, agree on the meandering, de-facto for youtube.

Share one or two alt music explainers, maybe in a new submission, though here will do.

⬐ coldtea

Here are some I follow:

https://www.youtube.com/user/GracieTerzian

https://www.youtube.com/c/RyanLeach/videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agln4_z8D8I

https://www.youtube.com/c/AnneKathrinDernComposer

⬐ IndySun

Thank you.

⬐ IndySun

Without you knowing my skill or interest level you sent great links. Thank you. I don't follow much per se, more of a contiguous surfer, but do like Guy M's short, simply explained, music theory videos. You may appreciate his style and other videos.

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH1Kp5ewZe_TP3CMB6LBw9Z...

⬐ seneca

This is my first encounter, and I have to say I have a hard time getting through it. The drawings are distracting and not adding much and his speaking pattern is pretty grating. His vocal-fry/drawl is just too much for my ears, and sounds affected.

The content seems good but the rest of the presentation is just not worth getting through.

⬐ raydiatian

As somebody learning music theory actively, I respect the content he puts out but I don’t really respect his presentational format. His doodles are distracting and often only tangentially related to whatever he’s talking about.

⬐ lomaprietasolo

I completely agree.

So I just turn off the video and treat these presentations as podcasts. I find the audio content is informative and doesn't need the visual distraction at all.

⬐ raydiatian

Podcasted

⬐ silviot

Interesting. For me they help follow what he's saying: after a few minutes I can peek at the doodles and I remember what points he touched.

I never thought some people might dislike that part, but now I see you and a sibling comment do.

I wonder if it's good for people like me (who don't know much about music theory) and bad for people in the field. If this is the case I believe it's a good choice: the audience of non experts is much bigger and thus the majority of viewers finding this helpful will outweight the problems of those who dislike it.

⬐ beezlebroxxxxxx

A cool channel you should check out is Metal Music Theory[0]. He actually will play a lot of the riffs he analyzes himself, will show corresponding notation and tabs, and is fairly understandable. He is getting his PhD on rhythmic analysis of metal if I remember correctly.

[0]: https://youtube.com/channel/UCIrOOZeidxZjoDRFdLqabmA

⬐ rwmj

I think this is a good example of why Youtube's content ID match is a plague. This video would have been far better with more and longer musical examples.

⬐ smallerfish

I really enjoyed his video about Lydian Chromatic Concept a couple months back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAt1Vcuy5LY. Adam Neely has a short critique in the comments, so hopefully he will release a video talking about it further.

⬐ andruc

For the aging ones that remember the good ol' flash days, the Punk-o-Matic is still online:

https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/147276

⬐ nxpnsv

Lots of good videos from 12tone, not only educational but satisfyingly hypnotic. I need to ask, is he writing words from end to front?

⬐ luciusdomitius

Did this guy just claim that "hardcore punk explicitly critiques the capitalist system"- e.g. all hc kids are commies, while doodling on a piece of sheet paper. I want the 3 minutes of my life back.

⬐ nkrisc

Communism and capitalism aren’t the sole, diametrically opposed ideologies.

⬐ telmo

Hardcore punk is pretty close to left wing anarchism. Is this news to you?

Also: it is possible to criticize the capitalist system without advocating communism. Believe it or not, it is not a binary choice.

⬐ vibrio

That is a pretty broad brush for hardcore punk. Are there examples advocating communism that are you thinking of specifically?

⬐ coldtea

You don't need to "advocate communism" to "critique the capitalist system".

Anarchists, bohemians, ecologists, distributists, nihilists, existentialists, hippies, traditionalists, some religious groups (including some christian demominations) and several other political or social movements and philosophies do it - in fact, one could also include social democrats in that.

Not to mention that advocating communism is not the same as advocating Stalinism or Eastern Bloc style opression (as is often implied), not anymore than advocating capitalism is advocating for the attrocities made by capitalist countries.

⬐ vibrio

I don't disagree with your points. Returning to the thread, I was curious about the hardcore punk bands that advocate communism, and whether that was too broad of a brush to cover that genre. The person in the video lists Bad Brains, Minor Threat Black Flag, and The Dead Kennedys as prototypical. Do any of these "advocate communism" to "critique the capitalist system"?

⬐ n4r9

I don't think much of hardcore punk advocated communism explicitly. Certainly not Soviet-style authoritarian communism. Nor do I think anyone made such a claim in this thread!

The Dead Kennedys song "Holiday in Cambodia" is critical of both Pol Pot and US capitalist culture, for example.

⬐ vibrio

I completely agree with your point. in reviewing the thread I think I have mis-interpreted the parent comment as a stating that "HC music should criticize capitalist culture without endorsing communism". I was looking for evidence of general endorsement of communism in the genre as I think we agree it is rare.

⬐ None

None

⬐ issa

I've written many a hardcore punk song, and I am a pretty poor guitarist. I think my main comment on the video is that playing barre chords very fast is extremely easy. The good guitar players in the punk world add things beyond chords. Also, I've never thought of punk as "not having chord progressions". That just seems...incredibly wrong.

⬐ lawgimenez

Hi are you Issa of Good Clean Fun?

⬐ niix

That would be rad!

Edit: It is! Look at his email.

⬐ issa

Ha. I am indeed. And this is not the place I usually expect to discuss hardcore!

⬐ scott_s

Woooow. I saw you play at a tiny show that took place in a dorm common area in DC. One of the other bands was Midvale.

⬐ issa

oh yeah. I think that was an AR conference at American University? Fun!

⬐ lawgimenez

Awesome! On the streets album is one of my favorite when I was a teenager. I don’t know if you remember but you replied to my email interview back 2009 when GCF went out with a movie or something like that.

⬐ issa

That's awesome. Of course I remember that email! haha. Hit me up sometime and we can talk startups, tech and hardcore. You probably know my co-founder's publication... The Hard Times?

⬐ lawgimenez

Of course every hardcore kid knows that site, no idea he was your cofounder. No idea you are even a tech founder! This is crazy cool. Thanks for entertaining me here, GCF should put out new music in my opinion but that's for another day.

⬐ issa

oh man. I appreciate the sentiment, but the only music these days is jamming with my daughters around the house.

⬐ tarentel

To your last point, at least some of the songs he used as examples do not have a chord progression. Probably none of them really do. In traditional western music theory, a chord has to have at least 3 distinct notes. A power chord isn't really a chord in a classical music theory sense so any song that is made up of just power chords and someone singing, or just screaming, roots or fifths over those wouldn't really be considered to have a chord progression. In some of the songs it sounds like they're only playing one note at a time.

In the video he says there are a lot of I-IV-V intervals in this genre of music. In a harmonic sense though they don't fit into any sort of chord progression. It's not a major I-IV-V, it's not a i-iv-V or a i-iv-v. It's just 3-4 notes played individually so they don't really function as a traditional definition of a chord progression which establishes or goes against a key. It's ambiguous.

⬐ brudgers

Sonically, a power chord has power because human hearing hears the two notes as second and third harmonics and the brain inserts a first harmonic below them into our experience.

We experience an E1 when A2 is played over E2.

What we don’t hear is a third (9th or 10th harmonic) and the third forms the basis of the harmonic theories from the Period of Common Practice, and because the video is academic, those theories are the context in which chord progressions are discussed in the video.

⬐ issa

Also a common misconception that hardcore punk bands only play power chords. A lot of bands are playing barre chords and hitting all the strings (imagine!). I learned most of the songs in the examples that way--whether the original guitarists did or did not, I don't know.

Full disclosure, I am a self-taught, punk musician with minimal knowledge of music theory. But most hardcore punk songs are just pop songs sped up, so I don't see how one can have a chord progression and the other can't.

⬐ tarentel

As brudgers pointed out it's just how a chord progression is defined. A G major chord for example is G/B/D, if you don't have the B it's no longer considered a chord in music theory and if you don't have a chord you can't have a chord progression really.

I don't really listen to this type of music but based on the quick snippets that were played only blitzkrieg bop had a chord progression. The other songs were power chords or what sounded like just single notes being played. If other songs in this genre you've heard are playing full bar chords than those would likely be considered to have a chord progression.

Also, since most of this discussion, including the video, was around guitar, you can have a chord progressions with one person playing only power chords but someone else has to fill in the gap, like the bass or singer. It's over the whole arrangement not an individual part.