HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ hermitcrab

My wife and I used to ride bikes. They are fun, but dangerous. I had a few scrapes and my wife has been over the bonnet of a car that pulled out in front of her.

If you are considering getting a bike, get proper training and buy the right gear. I did the UK IAM Advanced training, which was very helpful in keeping me alive. If you can't afford decent protective gear, then you can't afford to ride to a bike.

Pillion riders often come off wore than riders in accidents. If anyone ever offers you a ride on the back of the bike, do not accept unless:

* They are an experienced rider.

* You are 100% sure they don't try to show off (particularly applies to girls on the back of men's bikes).

* You have the right gear (a well fitting helmet, gloves, leather and boots as a minimum).

I suggest you try to impress the above on your offspring as well.

⬐ ThePadawan

How delightful!

How is it that I find a 1940s instructional voiceover much more human and encouraging than a fake cheerful "Yeah! You can do this!" 2000s voiceover?

⬐ Enginerrrd

I think a huge part of it is that the modern versions tend to assume the viewer is a complete moron by comparison.

⬐ HPsquared

There are quite a few people uploading this kind of old-school instructional videos and newsreels. One I like is Jeff Quitney:

https://vimeo.com/jeffquitney

⬐ CompuHacker

The British had every incentive to create engaging content; regional authorities were threatening to deplatform them.

⬐ jeron

If anyone is on the fence about learning to ride a motorcycle, I highly recommend it. One of my favorite hobbies. However, it does get expensive if you get serious about it like doing trackdays

⬐ dia80

I have a thoracic spinal cord injury, I can still move my hands and arms fully but not much else. When I was in hospital people were there for all kinds of reasons. There was only one theme. Motorcyclists. What's more they tended to have cervical injuries thus couldn't move at least part of there hands and arms or sometimes all. I can't ever motorcycle now but if I could that would have been enough to put me off. The tail risk is crazy.

⬐ trangus_1985

Motorcycling is deceptively safe. It's just that the cost of finding out when you fuck around is very high.

Safe riding is still more dangerous than being in a car, of course. But, the vast majority of motorcycle injuries are due to known dangerous factors such as alcohol, or going too fast through turns.

⬐ the_gipsy

> going too fast through turns

Going fast through turns is exactly the point for the majority of riders (all except choppers)

⬐ i_am_proteus

Yes, but not going too fast.

One of the reasons I stopped going on group rides was lead riders who burned through blind corners. I'll take an open corner with good visibility as fast as I dare, but if I can't see through the turn, I take it slowly.

⬐ the_gipsy

Yea you’re right. When riding in group, it should be ok to stay behind, as long as the last rider of a split-group waits at road forks.

⬐ mPReDiToR

Always ride your own ride.

Let the other guys arrive at the scene of the accident first.

You, me, a couple of other middle aged guys all hanging back on our sports tourers, while the crotch rockets are off antagonising the cage dwellers.

We'll all arrive in time for coffee, no sweat.

⬐ i_am_proteus

So completely spot, on my friend.

⬐ jascii

"Safe riding is still more dangerous than being in a car" To the operator. If we count the lethal damage caused to others, that number doesn't look so good...

⬐ trangus_1985

> we count the lethal damage caused to others

So, that's a pretty hefty claim. I'd like to see some data. :)

A very large chunk of motorcycle accidents are single party (about 25%), the rest involve a car, usually at low speeds such as an unprotected left turn or bad merge.

I did some quick googling and found that motorcycles are less likely to be involved in pedestrian accidents than cars, but I think the the onus is on you to support your claim.

⬐ jascii

"Passenger cars and light trucks (vans, pickups, and sport utility vehicles) accounted for 46.1% and 39.1%, respectively, of the 4875 deaths, with the remainder split among motorcycles, buses, and heavy trucks." https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/11/4/232

That makes 85.2% of pedestrian fatalities. This does not make automobile traffic a "safe" form of traffic in my book...

⬐ coyotespike

I think you've misread jascii - they are saying riding a motorcycle is more dangerous for the operator, while driving a car is less dangerous for the operator compared to adjacent pedestrians (for instance).

⬐ jascii

I just quickly want to thank you for your use of the "they" pronoun, while I generally identify as "he/him" it is nice not to have that assumed!

⬐ agloeregrets

The sad part about this is that for the most part it has been solved but it is expensive and a lot of people do not take the solutions seriously.

Good gear, I mean expensive gear, has built in spine protection. Good helmets limit your neck movement. We even have airbag-equipped suits! Outcomes are WAY better than they used to be. If you are in full leathers and with good neck protection, your odds for major spinal injury are incredibly reduced. Similar results also come from riding a motorcycle with ABS.

Problem is: people do not take safety seriously.

The thing is the people you didn't see at the hospital: People who don't wear helmets, let alone the rest of the gear. They died before then.

Motorcycles are a calculated risk, few correctly do the math, but when the math is done it is a far lesser risk.

⬐ TylerE

The gear is seriously good.

I don't ride, but I am a big fan of racing.

The MotoGP guys (wearing the best of all said gear) crash regularly at VERY high speeds. You'll see them eat asphalt at 150mph, cartwheel off into the gravel trap... and pop right up and dust themselves off. 5 minutes later, they'll have caught a ride back to the pits, get a new suit (if the airbag went off), and be right back out on track.

Not that there aren't injuries, sometimes severe, but generally the outcome is way way better than you'd expect if you aren't used to it.

Over the past 20 years or so, deaths have been pretty rare (roughly the same as in open wheel racing - F1 and similar). Almost all of the fatal crashes involve a rider falling off, and then getting run over by another bike.

⬐ qzw

All true in racing, but in the real world instead of loose gravel in open runoff areas, you have poles, trees, steel rails, massive cars, and other hard objects to run into. As the saying goes, it’s not the speed that kills you, it’s the sudden stops.

⬐ hutzlibu

"The sad part about this is that for the most part it has been solved"

I doubt it has solved basic physics, though. When a huge, fat SUV overlooks you at > 100 km/h - then yes, you want all the protection gimmicks avaiable - but chances are you still wake up in hospital - if you are lucky.

I had the same experience, I was in hospital and feeling like sh* - but next to me was a motorcycle accident. He put my misery into perspective.

⬐ bserge

Good to know. Although it's scary to think about waking up a quadriplegic.

⬐ giantg2

I want to see one with an ejection seat and parachute.

⬐ tarr11

> The sad part about this is that for the most part it has been solved

I don't think it's settled that this has been "solved"

"This systematic review highlighted lack of appropriate evidence on efficacy of back protectors. Based on limited information, we are uncertain about the effects of back protectors on spinal injuries. Further research is required to substantiate the effects of back protectors on mortality and other injuries to the back."

https://sjtrem.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13049-016...

⬐ kristofferR

I think he was talking mostly about good motorcycle airbag vests like the Helite Turtle and e-Turtle. "Good" is an important qualifier word though, the worst airbags offer little protection and don't limit head movement.

This is a great video about the Helite Turtle (it came out before the electronic e-Turtle) and motorcycle airbags in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jZryt607U

I'll definitively grab a Helite e-Turtle when I start riding next year.

⬐ pengaru

I used to ride a bunch, did many cross-country trips on two wheels, and honestly feel lucky to have escaped that phase alive and uninjured.

It's a fun hobby and a uniquely direct interaction with some interesting physics, but I can't recommend anyone do it on public roads shared with vehicles driven by careless/incompetent/inattentive/distracted/tired/drunk/stoned drivers.

If you're going to play on two wheels do it off-road or on otherwise closed courses, unless you're looking forward to being crippled, paralyzed, or dead, through no fault of your own.

⬐ bserge

But that's half of the fun!

⬐ city41

I used to ride as well, but before smartphones were so ubiquitous. Nowadays, when I see so many drivers glued to their phones while driving (it's shockingly common), I just can't imagine putting my life into their hands.

⬐ UI_at_80x24

I bought my motorcycle around 1995 for ~$800. It was a 1984 Honda Nighthawk 650. Sold it a few years later because I was moving and didn't have room for 2 vehicles. Fuel was ~$0.50/L $5 would fill it up (10L tank) I could drive ~200km on a full tank.

Adjusted for inflation that equals ~$1300 today.

I've looked around at a lot of used motorcycles and I've see other 1984 Honda's that are asking $2500-$3000 The average price seems to be $4k-$5k for 20 year old bikes!

This used to be a financially viable option for CHEAP transportation. Not anymore.

I want to ride again, and even though my wife would kill me if I did; I just can't afford it. Once upon a time, it was all I could afford; now it's a fancy toy that I can't afford. I think that stings more.

⬐ Kluny

The old ujms have hipster cred and they aren't made anymore, so the price has gone up due to scarcity. Try a cbr 150 from like 2011. You can get those for like $1000 now.

⬐ bch

> I bought my motorcycle around 1995 for ~$800 […] > I've looked around at a lot of used motorcycles and I've see other 1984 Honda's that are asking $2500-$3000 The average price seems to be $4k-$5k for 20 year old bikes!

To be devils advocate here, that’s a one-time capital cost that you may well be able to make money on once you sell again, assuming the price trend continues. It seems to me that price is also way cheaper than a comparable* car. If it were me, I’d be enjoying fun driving, cheap operating costs and easy parking long after the sting of not getting the bike for $800 had worn off.

*for some definition of “comparable”

⬐ bserge

Those are classics though. Also why do you need 650cc? Isn't 250 enough?

⬐ criddell

250 probably isn't enough for highways and long distance riding in the US.

For example, Texas State Highway 130 has an 85 mph speed limit and traffic typically rolls along at 5-10 mph above that. There isn't a lot of headroom for passing a car going 80 mph on most 250cc bikes.

If I were buying a bike today, I don't think I would consider anything that didn't have anti-lock brakes.

My last bike was a KLR650 and it was pretty crude. I sold it and gave up on motorcycles because drivers around where I live are too distracted. I rode 35 years accident free and decided to quit before my luck ran out. I do miss it though...

⬐ yurishimo

Anti-lock brakes are standard on the majority of new bikes now. In Europe I think they are required for all models. I would expect the US to follow suit in the next 5 years.

⬐ unemphysbro

I learned on a nighthawk 650 :) Brings back good memories.

⬐ hellbannedguy

I had the 250cc Nighthawk. I sold it thinking Honda's were junk. I was wrong obviously.

I used it to get me to high school. I was always sick that winter though. I had money for the bike, but not the gear.

CA had a insurance policy of requiring insurance, but not demanding it at DMV. Cops couldn't ask to see proof of insurance for any reason. It was all civil if their was an incident.

⬐ reducesuffering

You should be looking at 2000-2010 japanese bikes, not classics for nostalgia's sake. Kawasaki ninja's will run you $1,300 - $3,000 and get 50-70mpg.

⬐ motohagiography

Such a great video. Been riding a one of the re-issued Triumphs (thruxton) for a decade, it has a similar long and low geometry and seating position to the old Nortons. It's a great way to meet men in their 80's who yell "whaaat yeeeaaar?" at you at stoplights, if that's what you're into. (Am not.) The new bonnevilles looked so close to the originals if you had macular degeneration that you could even feel the disappointment of old bike guys as they realized they were talking to someone didn't have the mechanical ability to get a real classic running in that condition. It was almost like having a real dad. Motorcycles are awesome.

⬐ brg

I also highly recommend. Some further recommendations is to find the use that best fits your interest (dirt, courses, relaxation, commuting, tourism), and make excuses to ride.

I recently moved to a Zero, and despite the concerns of my peers for missing out on the pure riding experience, its really re-ignited my joy.

⬐ unemphysbro

I was slightly biased against electric bikes, no "vhroom, vhroom", gear-shifting, etc but I test rode the livewire and loved it!

⬐ mmmBacon

Honestly the track has ruined most street riding for me. While it’s cool to go for a ride in the hills, the street is not the track. There is just no rush like the track.

⬐ whartung

I am of a different tact.

I love motorcycling. It is a passion. I had my motorcycle classification before I got my car license.

But, I don't recommend it to anyone. I will not be party to suggesting, encouraging, cajoling or any other "ing" to get someone on a bike.

It's too dangerous to allow someone else to convince you.

Anyone in the community for any duration has their share of personal experiences, being close to someone lost or badly hurt, or simply being in a small community where loss and injury happens. I've lost friends. Had my share of (thankfully) mostly minor injuries. I've gone down on a freeway in rush hour traffic. It happens, it's real.

The two highest cohorts of folks getting injured or worse on a motorcycle are folks riding under the influence, and folks new (or even returning) to riding. The first cohort you can do something about, don't drink. The second, you can take measures (training, reading, practice), but, in the end, you have to just survive through it. You have to find yourself in situations and work your way through them.

I like traveling on a motorcycle. I love long distance touring rides. One of the best aspects of riding is going on a long trip with a friend. You may both take the same path, but, in the end, you have separate journeys and get to share them at each stop. In a car, you have a driver, and everyone else essentially asleep. As a driver you're likely barely conscious. Fingertip on the steering wheel, cruise control holding steady, songs serenading you on the stereo. On a bike, that's just not the case.

On a bike, you get to smell the air. High on my list is riding behind a lemon truck. You get to feel the environment. It's hot. It's cold. It's wet. Ride through the desert and feel the temperature change as you drop down in to a wash, even if just for a few hundred feet before you rise back up in the heat.

I love it.

But I don't recommend it.

⬐ nicbou

I remember riding through olive farms in Morocco. The smell was incredible.

I also have a lot of negative stories. Right now I have to ride 700 kilometres of highway in 14 degree cloudy weather to get home. My ears are ringing. They are sore from the ear plugs. I have to wear 4 layers of gear to make it. It's dreadful.

Yet I keep putting myself in that situation every year. It's that good.

⬐ HPsquared

Open topped cars are a nice compromise, you can always put the roof up or turn on the heated seats.

⬐ moonchrome

Plus constant emphasis on "safe driving" gives off this vibe that "if you just drive safe you will be fine".

I knew 100% that a bit of gravel in a turn, me or someone else not paying attention to the road, and a million other things could mean I'm dead or permanently disabled. Just the other day a couple died on a bike near here at low speed because a deer ran in front of them and they fell into the other side of traffic. That same scenario with a car and they are looking at minor injuries and car damage.

I chose to ride because I've always wanted to get that thrill and figured better do it before I had kids. Now that I got my son I don't ride anymore - it's just irresponsible IMO. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone and think that people promoting "safe riding" are deluding themselves. You can drive smarter, but there's no reasonable definition of safety on a motorcycle going anywhere near the speeds that make it worth driving a motorcycle (even if speed is not your thing long distance riding requires non-trivial speed to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time). That said it's fun and I haven't been able to get the same feeling with other things. If you chose to do it you should know that you're taking a real gamble.

⬐ None

None

⬐ pessimizer

> On a bike, you get to smell the air. High on my list is riding behind a lemon truck. You get to feel the environment. It's hot. It's cold. It's wet. Ride through the desert and feel the temperature change as you drop down in to a wash, even if just for a few hundred feet before you rise back up in the heat.

I've described it like this before, but it feels less like driving than like running really quickly.

⬐ ibn-python

I also generally agree with this but I think it's area dependent. Living close to a major metro, there have been very few rides where I can genuinely say that I did not at one point almost get hit by another vehicle, but I can imagine it being much safer in a rural area.

⬐ xeromal

Agreed. Part of the fun is all the danger that a bike brings. It's not a smart choice. It's a fun choice. There is nothing like hitting a perfectly banked road at a high speed and just feeling like you're part of the road. Nothing feels off and all you get is excitement. On the other hand, the 53rd car to make a left turn across oncoming traffic and not seeing you is exhausting. You always have to be exceedingly aware when riding a bike. One lazy mental moment and someone cuts you off and you go flying.

⬐ mrslave

Agreed. Rode for more than a decade in many different guises. Do not recommend.

Road trips are nice, but even on largely open country roads fatigue is real and it is easy for experienced riders to have accidents. Commuting is not safe. Some car drivers are just bad and will pull in front of you. Some car drivers will pick fights and threaten your life with their motor vehicle.

After giving it up, and growing up I suppose, I have also come to realize how many motorcyclists are jerks. I don't expect this to be a popular opinion. I always knew some were jerks: I saw their bad riding & picking unnecessary arguments with car drivers when out on rides with them! As a motorcycle-aware car driver many years later I have encountered many more whinging motorcyclists who themselves created unnecessarily dangerous situations then lectured me or flipped me off.

As a car driver, stay away from motorcycles. Considering motorcycling?: stay away from motorcycles. ;-)

⬐ nayuki

> I have also come to realize how many motorcyclists are jerks.

As a non-motorcyclist, I detest the noise from loud exhaust pipes. Bad enough are the ones that sound like loud farting, the absolute worst are the ones that sound like roaring thunder and can be heard from 500 m away. These noises degrade my experience living in the city, whether I'm walking on the streets or in a building (street shop, apartment, etc.). It is absolutely selfish and despicable that one driver can cause so much noise for hundreds of people nearby.

There are cars and motorcycles that are guilty of making excess noise. Motorcycles make up a minority of traffic, but I would say about 50% of them are overly loud. As for cars, the vast majority of them are normal, and maybe 5% are the obnoxious noisemakers. These are my observations in Toronto.

⬐ nayuki

Note - a week ago in the thread "High-powered motorcycle vibrations might impact iPhone camera", a good number of comments talked about excessive noise and the lack of enforcement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28491372

⬐ whartung

California has been doing a lot of effort to address the noise problem. They made new legislation to the point that it's almost impossible to get illegal exhaust systems installed on street bikes in the state, and that out of state exhaust system vendors will not ship product to the state. Folks interested in that have them shipped to Nevada and then "smuggled" in to the state.

There was also a recent anecdote that the CHP was enforcing noise regulations at a popular motorcycle destination/hangout. And you have to appreciate the difficulty of this, as it requires special equipment, and a specific process to perform the measurement, which is not something the typical CHP officer carries (I can't speak to their training if they, indeed, did have the equipment).

Also, violations are no longer "fix it" tickets, but immediate fines, which deter those that simply swap them out, get them checked out, and then swap them back in. There's also recent (past few years) requirements for badging and labeling from the manufacturers about compliance, and these need to be retained on the equipment which is an immediate violation if they're inspected and found lacking.

It's difficult to enforce in the wild. You can't, necessarily, readily cite someone for being "too loud". Just like you can't cite someone for going "too fast", they need an actual measurement, and they can't normally do that in the field. The labeling requirements help, as well as the fines to vendors and installers if they're caught facilitating the violation. Mind, many bikes are grandfathered in, and it will take more time for them to fade off the roads. But it should get better.

Right now, there is pressure back on the State because there's more legislation in the works that starts making it more and more difficult for folks that do, indeed, wish to modify their vehicles for competition and other off road activities. There should be balance, and it's not unheard of for the State to go too far and need to be reeled back in.

⬐ js2

The motor cycle in the video has the rear brake on the left foot and gear shift on the right, which is opposite motorcycles I'm familiar with. Meanwhile, the clutch is on the left hand and front brake on the right hand as expected. That seems weird.

Edit: Quora provides an explanation. It was a British thing until the 1970s:

https://www.quora.com/In-the-1970s-motorcycle-foot-controls-...

⬐ aitchnyu

Royal Enfield in India used that till 2010. Another Indian feature is gear lever you can stomp with heel and toe to shift up and down.

⬐ barrkel

This is also a feature of the semi-automatic Honda C90, the most common UK pizza delivery bike up until a few years ago.

⬐ russellbeattie

My son and I got our M1s this summer and a couple used Ninja 250s to use as starter bikes.

Observations: This is a good hobby to start when you're younger. My 19yo son picked it up quickly, hasn't had any problems, handles the bike well and is of course, fearless.

Myself, on the other hand, being 49yo and a klutz in general, has come close to disaster more than a handful of times, pulled my hamstring badly among other bumps and bruises, and it's only been a few months. I've yet to get to the point where the fun outweighs the fear. I've definitely had moments in the Santa Cruz mountains, but for the most part I'm seriously debating whether I'm going to keep riding.

⬐ unemphysbro

I ride in the SC area. I wouldn't call those trivial roads to learn on but I'm glad you're doing it!

They are some of the best in the bay area to ride!

⬐ mzs

Here are all the reels: https://youtu.be/I_t_fbOmvYg

  Motor Cycling Elementary Control

  Motor Cycling Maintenance

  Motor Cycling Cross-Country Technique

⬐ lm28469

I'd recommend this one too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp6gxdGrv5E

The actors are super bad but the educational parts are all you need to know about bikes

⬐ basicplus2

There is only one rule you need to remember when riding a motorcycle.. and that is..

Ride like everyone is actively trying to kill you.

⬐ mc32

Looks like in older bikes you had much more control of how the engine performed at your fingertips (timing and a choke) --obviously this has to do with the carburetor, except for the exhaust release. I don't think I ever saw bike with that control. Pretty interesting.

⬐ jeffbee

An example of a modern bike with a valve lifter is the Kawasaki KLR-650. Generally any large-displacement motorcycle with a kickstarter, or that can be fitted with a kickstarter, has one, because otherwise the engines are impossible to start. These days, most of them are automated (some mechanism does it for you if the engine speed is very slow).

⬐ taylodl

I won't ride on the street. Distracted driving, especially texting and driving, is more dangerous than drunk driving. While most people are good at avoiding drunk driving, many people, people who would never dream of driving drunk, will have a distraction due to text messaging. Right now drunk driving still kills more drivers, however the NHTSA believes the deaths due to distracted driving are under reported.

Off-road riding? Totally different ballgame and a lot of fun!

⬐ ultrarunner

As someone who rides more miles a year than drives, I appreciate that you framed this as a personal opinion. If I avoided one accident for every time someone told me that I shouldn't ride I would probably live forever. Their uncle, or uncle's friend, or brother's coworker, or someone always "had to lay 'er down" to avoid tree clippings on a straight street, or rain, or whatever.

About 2/3 of the accidents are caused by rider error [0]. I've heard several references, but [1] says that 27% of motorcycle fatalities involved a drunk rider. Cars about to turn left in front of me are generally visible and avoidable (the intense focus needed is part of the fun for me). All that is to say that some factors are controllable, others are not, and risk tolerance is subjective. I accept my odds, but I also know that none of my Harley-riding neighbors have any interest in training or improving skills at all.

With the <1 year old bike I spend the most time on, I find it worthwhile to reduce my CO2 footprint the small amount that I do. Not all motorcycles are much better than a larger car pollution-wise, and not all people think taking a personal risk (or any cost) is worthwhile to reduce pollution, but if everyone did the situation would be improved. I find that compelling. My Harley-riding neighbors… uh… definitely don't.

Personally, the joy of riding is part of what makes life livable. Of course I could decrease my risk profile (indeed, so many people seem to think that I ought to do just that). But as my wife cares for the dying elderly at their bedsides she tells me that they never celebrate their decreased risk profiles, but rather wish they would have taken more chances and opportunities that they had been presented. In my mind, to ride pecks at the question of why we do anything.

[0] https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/little-known-facts-about-m... [1] https://carsurance.net/blog/motorcycle-accidents

⬐ taylodl

To your point the only person I know who died while riding was riding while drunk and there wasn't another vehicle involved.

⬐ diatone

As a counterpoint, and as someone who was hospitalised after a motorcycle accident, it's not the probability of a crash that's the worry, but the severity. With that said, I agree with GP: riding in the open air is liberating. Sometimes the juice is worth the squeeze.

⬐ perl4ever

>someone always "had to lay 'er down"

One of things I was told that I always remember from an MSF course to get my license was, if you're going into a turn too fast, push it over more, because you have more traction on the side of your tire than you think.

>About 2/3 of the accidents are caused by rider error

I haven't owned or ridden a motorcycle for several years, and don't have that much experience all in all, but I see stuff riders do and I'm like why??

One thing that's really common is people just dangling their legs as they get going. What on earth good is that going to do you if you don't have complete control? You going to keep from tipping over by putting your feet on the ground while moving? I made a point of not putting my feet down until the moment I stopped and picking them up the moment I went.

Another thing is people making wide turns with no apparent countersteering. I get annoyed by anybody, car or bike (which seems like most people) that threatens to cut in my lane when I'm waiting to turn left. It's just lazy in a car, but on a motorcycle it suggests you might not know how to make a tight turn.

Then there's tailgating. A motorcycle feels so powerful and maneuverable that most people just don't seem to internalize that it can't stop as well as it goes because 4 > 2, and braking in a turn is even worse. I've read enough about cars vs. bikes on race tracks that I've internalized power to weight ratio is not everything.

Countersteering again: I got used to pushing sharply on the bars if I wanted to quickly lean it over for lane changes or turns. But the people I see weaving through traffic on sportbikes just kind of drift.

And finally, making tight turns at very low speed, like in a gas station, is something they showed us in the MSF course I took. I don't think I've seen anyone else do it, and it's hard for me to imagine how I would've figured it out if self taught.

"they never celebrate their decreased risk profiles"

Well, yeah, but the people who die after horrible motorcycle accidents never celebrate how they didn't die of cancer either. Nor their family. I can tell you that empirically.

⬐ freewilly1040

Is there any good data on what the risk multiple of motorcycle riding is vs driving, assuming responsible behavior? Ie, you wear the standard gear, you don't drive at reckless speeds, you don't drive drunk, etc.

⬐ gregoriol

According to official data in France, there is 22 times more risk of dying riding a motorbike than driving a car.

Source for 2012 saying 27 times, but current data seems lower at 22: https://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/actualites/27-fois-plu...

⬐ hermitcrab

UK stats from 2013:

"Motorcyclists account for less than 1 per cent of traffic each year, but 19 per cent of fatalities in 2013."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

So relatively dangerous, compared to most other activities. But also exciting!

I've done quite few exciting things and going around the corner of a track leant over, knee-to-knee with another rider at well over 100 mph was one of the best.

You can reduce your risk by riding defensively and wearing good protective gear. But you are never going to be as safe as you will in a car.

⬐ gregoriol

Same stats in France: 19% of deaths for about 1% of traffic.

https://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/chacun-son-mode-de-dep...

⬐ S_A_P

“I told my mother that I wanted to get a motorcycle. She said absolutely not! Your uncle rode a motorcycle and was in a horrific motorcycle accident that killed him…

She said I could just have his.” -bad paraphrase of Anthony Jeselnik

⬐ 1e-9

I grew up riding dirt bikes. Later moved on to street bikes. Wandered many miles of beautiful deserts, mountains, plains, and rainforests. Had truly awesome experiences. Also had a few truly perilous experiences where the difference between life or death was razor thin. Fortunately, I escaped without major injury, but I’ve seen others not be so lucky.

My strong advice is to never ride motorcycles. There’s plenty of other wonderful experiences to be had in this world without taking such risks.

⬐ foxfluff

Does that include don't ride dirtbikes?

I'm wondering how the risks compare in blasting through busy highways on a 650cc superbike vs dirt bike on a path vs a lightweight 125cc on 'burbs and rural back roads never going faster than 50 mph..

(I've been considering something like the Honda Grom or Monkey 125!)

Also, what experience would you recommend as an alternative?

⬐ fergie

Recently got my license after a summer of driving an MT-07. It really is insane how powerful those bikes are, particularly when you consider that they are often regarded as "middelweight".

I am also considering a Grom.

⬐ 1e-9

Yes, I also strongly advise not riding dirt bikes either.

With that said, over countless hours of riding the ‘burbs, rural back roads, and trails; I never had what I considered a near-death experience on a dirt bike versus having at least three on street bikes. I was undoubtedly lucky, but if you avoid competitive motocross, don’t try stupid stunts, wear a full complement of protective gear, and limit your time on the street, I suspect you are safer on a dirt bike than a big street bike. Even so, I wouldn’t do it. I’ve seen dirt bikes put friends in the ICU and I now realize there are better ways I could have spent that time.

Here are a few leisure experiences from which I have received greater fulfillment with far less risk:

- Volunteer to help someone in need.

- Actively support a cause that makes the world a better place.

- Learn a new skill.

- Backpack remote areas with interesting geology, wildlife, and skies that are so bright with stars at night that it is difficult to find the constellations. Study the route beforehand to fully appreciate the area and know where to look for fossils, prehistoric artifacts, interesting minerals, geological formations, plants, and animals. For an extra challenge, pursue ultralight backpacking.[1]

- Travel to places with unique cultures. Hang out with the locals and get to know them. The lowest-profile people tend to have the most surprising and interesting life stories. Learn some of the local history and language beforehand.

- Learn to sail. With sufficient qualifications, you can rent sailboats all over the world. Fly to a beautiful location, rent a boat, island hop, travel the coastlines, and explore.

Even better for me was to start a family and focus on giving them a wonderful life.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultralight_backpacking

⬐ 9530jh9054ven

Kind of depends on why you ride though, doesn't it?

I don't know what you would define as other wonderful experiences, but I suspect that someone rotten like me can't appreciate them. The madness of gambling with my life for no benefit at all is specifically why I ride. Appealing to a part of me that wants very much to die and be done with all. And appealing to the part that doesn't want to die, and forces me focus everything on the act of riding itself. Not the landscape, not the experience, but the act in of itself.

Apologies if it's strange to read, I have a difficult time trying to explain it... this is about as close as I can describe it, without writing long paragraphs.

⬐ refracture

I know for a fact my wife is going to get the bug to buy a motorcycle someday.. grew up around them, got scared away after her dad's accident.. but he got back up on the saddle, so I imagine it's only a matter of time.

I'm not sure I'll be following suit. I like riding on dirt, but the streets aren't forgiving and are populated by people who won't put their phones down.

⬐ ChopSticksPlz

Oh my, I had to blink twice seeing a post about motorcycles at the most nerdy news board this planet has ever seen :o

I turn coffe into code to earn $ for gas for my enduro bike and to take long distance trips across Europe and maybe other continents soon :)

⬐ jbboehr

Kind of amazing how little the interface has changed over the last 70(!) years.

⬐ zh3

Eh, it's standardised quite a lot. As a young adult I had a Triumph Bonneville (still do), small Ducati (went up in flames) and a bunch of Japanese bikes (which lasted varying lengths of time, between dying natural deaths and being slung yp the road).

The point being that the gearchange on the Triumph was 1 up, 3 down on the right, the japanese bikes were 1 down 4 or 5 up on the left and the ducati was 1 down 4 up but on the right hand side. Given the random interchange/pattern between gear and rear brake, the first few miles were always interesting while trying to re-arrange the mental model to fit the current bike.

Which is why, to this day, I really dislike it when new versions of software randomly shift the position of the steering wheel from the usual position to wherever some UX person has decided it should now be (like behind my left ear).

Edit: But to expand on this a little, on a motorbike (or indeed a bicycle), the interface puts everything directly under hand/foot control. Every necessary control is a minor movement, and pretty much the only difference between bike controls these days is the (thumb-based) switch layout

⬐ nn3

I like the bicycle analogy of software updates.

When you update and the handle bar is suddenly behind your head. "We modernized our UI ..."

⬐ jandrese

Or "the handlebar is now hidden up your butt". Look how clean the lines are on the new model! It photographs beautifully! Doesn't matter that it's a literal pain in the ass to ride now.

⬐ Dah00n

Sounds like a Tesla design.

⬐ zh3

Can't take credit for it (saw it somewhere, and have paraphrased it - see [1] for an older link along the same lines, though unlikely to be the originator).

[1] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/who-moved-my-steering-wheel-s...

⬐ weird-eye-issue

I just drove a motorcycle for the first time two days ago. Took about 10 minutes of solo practice on a quiet street before I was comfortable enough driving with a passenger around on the street. Didn't watch videos or read any guides, just found it quite intuitive.

It was an automatic scooter though so I'm sure that makes it way, way easier than some sort of manual sport motorcycle!

⬐ hermitcrab

I rode a bike for over a year before I felt safe enough to take a passenger on the back.

⬐ weird-eye-issue

This was a small island in Thailand where 99% of the traffic was other motorcycles, so I think that had a lot to do with it. There were lots of curves and stuff but I just kept it relatively slow and steady.

Also I have a ton of mountain biking experience so it felt quite natural

⬐ speedgeek

I am 62 and have ridden since I was 14. Roadraced for a couple of years (only quit because it is so expensive). Here are my thoughts on how to stay safe: 1) ride with one or two fingers on the front brake 2) you are invisible. that person on the side road who is looking right at you - yeah good chance they are looking right through you and will pull out in front of you. 3) ride with your high beam on at all times (see #2) 4) braking is 75-100% front brake. when the tire is skidding you are not braking, release the pressure slightly to get back to braking. 5) learn how to countersteer. it is the only way to maneuver quickly. 6) gear up. a minimum is a properly fitted helmet (most people wear a helmet that is too big), back protector (ask any racer if they work -they do), motorcycle specific leather jacket, roadracing gloves, motorcycle specific boots, denim pants. 7) do not ride under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 8) don't panic. your bike is far more capable than you think. If you panic and stand it up to brake chances are that will end badly. countersteer and flick it in, worst case you low side and the outcome is better than riding into a tree or ditch. 9) know that the most dangerous time for a new motorcyclist is after six months. they think they have it figured out and exceed their skill. 10) do track days (see #8). if possible get a ride on the back with an instructor - it is eye opening on what is possible.

HTH someone.

⬐ fearface

Great recommendation, except I don’t consider the one/two finger on the break generally recommendable: - not all bikes can be safely stopped two fingers - the remaining fingers might get in the way of the lever

Somehow it’s popular in the US, but not in Italy, Germany, Netherlands and Switzerland (it’s where I went racing and had instructions).

⬐ barrkel

It depends on the bike's brakes - bite point and lever adjustment - and how fast a reaction time you need.

If the brake lever can reach the throttle grip, that's generally a roadworthiness failure - old brake fluid or other wear and tear in the hydraulics. Fingers getting in the way isn't short of it. I prefer a fairly sharp bite point some way out from the throttle grip and adjust the lever accordingly.

If you are planning to brake, and you should be in a racing scenario, then four fingers gives you more control. But if I'm filtering through traffic in London, I've got two fingers on the brake and two fingers and a thumb on the throttle. I also have fingers on the clutch lever. An added bonus of keeping a couple of fingers on the brake is to help maintain throttle position to stay within the speed limit over potholes and speed bumps.

⬐ b1k3awayy

I've seen people file or saw off the brake and clutch levers so that they're shorter. That way, you can always keep 2 fingers on the lever without pinching the other fingers when you pull it in.

⬐ pibechorro

Moto safety course I took was firm beliver in NOT covering the break. It prevents panick grabs and if you get hit by a bird, or an unexpected pothole, etc you could easily jam it and end up loosing fron wheel traction st the worst time.

I only feather it in tight slow maneuvers. At speed, proper distance from other vehicles is the best defense.

I would add, dont be a speed demon, BUT, its also best to be the fastest overall in the road. Its safer to be constantly slowly passing vehicles than being overtaken from the rear and getting pinched between two cars. Ride past congestion snd find open pockets of road. Never wait between two cars in a red light, split up to the front regardless of law, its safest.

Most deaths happen when a car left turns infront of you at an intersection and tbones you. Slow down at all intersections and try to use other cars as screen cover for your bike. They DONT see you. Ride like you are invisible.

⬐ speedgeek

I had a driver run a stop sign while making a left turn, then when he saw me, he stopped and stared straight ahead leaving his car blocking the road. Threshold braking brought me to a stop roughly two feet from his car. If I had not been covering the brake I (and my wife who was a passenger) would have been injured, very probably badly injured.

⬐ batch12

For #2, I learned to watch wheels. While far from foolproof, It is easier to see the car that is creeping forward this way.

⬐ leoedin

Wheels are also great at telling you where a car is going. You can see subtle changes in the direction of the wheels much better than you can intuit the car's direction by looking at its body.

⬐ Misteur-Z

> 2) you are invisible

From personal experience riding in the chaos that is Paris traffic for almost 10 years. I really scared myself maybe 3-4 times with bicycles running red lights at full speed.

=> Regular drivers are paying quite good attention because they need their car to go to work the next day, the real danger comes from newcomers and people who don't drive often (tourists, old people, families on weekends, etc.)

=> Anything that does not require a license (especially all these new stupid fast electric things that go over 20kmh) will make crazy tight turns without checking anything. They will get away with everything and never get stopped by the police, they don't have insurance and will not get fined for anything.

So I would add:

- Don't overspeed in traffic jams

- Don't ever come close to a bus or truck, moving or stopped (massive blind spots + not going to feel a thing running over you)

- Don't mess with car drivers (they will try to run over you and your 200kg bike)

- There will ALWAYS be a **** crazy biker with a death wish riding faster than you, whatever your speed is

⬐ KozmoNau7

I've been advised against covering the brake at all times, since it reduces throttle control. However I do cover the brake whenever going through intersections, passing driveways and so on. I do this on my bicycle as well, you never know when someone is going to pull out from a driveway without seeing you.

Gear-wise, denim doesn't really do much of anything, aside from providing a marginally useful millimeter of additional abrasion. From having crashed my bicycle often (never had a moto crash, thankfully), I've had severe scrapes underneath denim that looked just mildly scuffed on top. With pressure applied, it can act like sandpaper on your skin. Gear up in proper gear, modern cordura/kevlar gear is comfortable and not that expensive, plus the hip/knee/elbow pads make a big difference in a crash.

I also got the "you're invisible" part drilled into me by every instructor I've had, and it's probably the most important lesson.

On top of that, always look ahead! On a bike you sit at roughly SUV head height, plus you can stand up on the pegs if you need to. Always look ahead, not just at the 2-3 cars in front of you, but as far ahead as you can, scanning for brake lights, traffic clumping together, anything that looks like it could be an issue. I do this when driving a car as well, if people start braking way up ahead, let off the gas and keep an eye on it. I see so many people just charge right into traffic jams and stomp on the brakes, probably because they didn't notice or maybe just didn't care.

Always be smooth on your inputs, but try to also be smooth in traffic.

⬐ mngnt

>denim doesn't really do much of anything

There is a company that makes denim pants with kevlar inserts and knee&hip pads. While not as good as proper leather outfit, they´re way better than regular jeans and I like the looks better.

https://www.motorcycle.com/products/trilobite-661-parado-jea...

⬐ mngnt

> HTH someone.

Beginner rider (bought a yamaha V-Star 650 3 days ago) here. It does.

>1) ride with one or two fingers on the front brake My driving school instructor chastised me for that. I kept doing it. As a cyclist, I ALWAYS keep my fingers on the brake, I know how fast I need to react and there is no time to waste reaching for that lever.

>3) ride with your high beam on at all times Good idea. Will do (During daytime)

>6) gear up I don´t understand why this has to be repeated so often. It´s a complete no-brainer, when I was budgeting my bike, I added 1000 €for gear: proper motorcycle gear, with pads, with kevlar, with leather, certified. It´s insane how many people ride in their street clothes (when doing my test drive, I wore shorts, a hoodie and a helmet. Luckily I didn´t fall, but as soon as I got off, i got burned badly on the exhaust. There are countless ways to hurt yourself on that machine.)

7)do not ride under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Again, why do people keep doing this? This is a shortcut to death. And it´s so often combined with the previous point.

Thanks for the tips, I´ve been binge watching motorcycle tips and safety recommendations for months now, most of these repeat so often I have them hammered into my brain.

⬐ giantg2

Most of this is exactly the advice I give for someone driving a car. I also gave up track days and AutoX due to cost (got married and have a family).

⬐ mseidl

"4 wheels moves your body, 2 wheels moves your soul"

⬐ pengaru

> 3) ride with your high beam on at all times

This is incredibly anti-social, and I personally had a terrible life-threatening experience when a drunk asshole driving an AWD turbo v8 audi perceived my 04 R1's low beams as high beams (that model has two lights illuminated on low, four on high), and proceeded to ride my ass in the corners of a wet and twisty dark canyon road at enough elevation for my R1 to be significantly down on power and my tires bald having just ridden cross-country.

I had been following him for a while at a safe distance, and overtook him in a wide open straight. Little did I know he was becoming agitated the entire time I was behind him. In his own words "I know bikes, you've had your high beams on this entire time following me, blinding me!", shouted at me in a fury after I had pulled over to confront him over why he was all but running me off the road. He drove off in a rage after showing him the real high beams, but this is an example of what can happen when a driver believes you're blinding them with your high beams (which he accused me of having modified). I consider myself lucky this guy didn't either plow me off the road, or have a gun in hand when I confronted him. The whole experience was unbelievably nerve-wracking.

⬐ simonebrunozzi

I also guess that the OP meant in the day time. But that's also the only thing I disagree with, every other tip is spot on (me: biker for 30 years, since I was 14).

The problem with angry car drivers is that they have the power to kill you, and most don't even realize it. (my only motorcycle accident involves an a*hole driving a BMW car).

It will never happen, but I think the only viable solution is to force driving cameras (front and back) on all bikes - car drivers would know that every bike has these, and that if they do something stupid and run, even if they kill the biker, the camera would have recorded something.

As said, it will never happen, and there's tons of problems with implementing such a solution.

⬐ fastball

Eh, you get drivers like that without or without your high-beams on. I've had that happen to me and definitely didn't have my high beams on and there is absolutely no way the other driver thought they were. Some people are just assholes, esp. when you overtake them.

⬐ pengaru

No, this was absolutely over the headlights, we had a rather drawn out argument about it. But his being obviously drunk and a road rager certainly contributed to his uncharitable interpretation of the R1's bright ass dual factory low beams. This guy was livid and absolutely convinced my headlights were modified. He repeatedly asserted that bikes are required to have a single light on for low beams, claiming that's why sportbikes (at the time) often had asymmetric low beams.

Sure there are assholes everywhere, but riding with your high beams on constantly is obviously affecting the probability you'll enrage someone who will do more than just curse and squint. You're the vulnerable one on a bike, never forget that as a rider.

⬐ YZF

Not the OP but I'm guessing he meant in the day time. Yeah, having your high beam on at night is pretty anti-social...

⬐ speedgeek

I did mean daytime, I'm not quite that anti-social to ride at night with high beams :)

⬐ rudedogg

That was my guess too.

Anecdotal, but I've noticed when I had someone not see me riding, the majority of the time I forgot to turn on my high beams. It's a huge win and I don't think it's bothersome to others before the sun sets.

Also, the OPs advice is great. If you want to get technical the "Twist of the Wrist" books and videos are really great. Here's a clip on counter-steering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng

⬐ vladvasiliu

> It's a huge win and I don't think it's bothersome to others before the sun sets.

I don't know how much of a win it is, but it can be a pain even during daytime.

Older bikes have useless headlights, so they may be able to get away with it, but newer, LED-based ones, can be blinding. Happened yesterday to me around noon on an overcast day.

I also mostly get around by bike, and I've always found it very anti-social when others are riding behind me with their high-beam on. I ride a larger motorcycle, so I can actually see things other than my elbows in the rear-view mirrors.

⬐ pengaru

Newer bikes like my 04 R1 had such effective projection beam headlights (which is already 17 years old, eek!) it was completely unnecessary to ever use the high beams unless you wanted to illuminate a forest canopy. Riding with the high beams on constantly on that bike would have been a dickhead move, no LEDs required.