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One day they will just film using something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnBC5bwV5y0 that's easily replaceable post-production with computer generated graphics.

This reminds me of The Mill BLACKBIRD - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnBC5bwV5y0

That's really cool! Here's a video with more details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnBC5bwV5y0

⬐ jscissr

I noticed the CGI cars in this clip don't have drivers in them.

How would they add a driver for an actual ad? I think cars are much easier than humans to do photo-realistically in CGI. Or do they just show the car in a way such that you can't see that there's no driver?

⬐ npunt

I'd assume they'd just use window tint if they're cheap, or the same stuff used in movies to drop actors in if they're not.

⬐ dredmorbius

Another hit for the seeing-is-believing crowd. Automobile VR platform.

More at Autoblog: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/23/mill-blackbird-car-rig-vi...

And The Mill's website: http://www.themill.com/portfolio/3002/the-blackbird%C2%AE

The Blackbird is the world's first fully adjustable car rig that cannot only alter its chassis to match the precise length and width of almost any car, but its looks as well. Using CGI, the car rig can be re-skinned to look like any car, and its electric motor can be programmed to emulate the driving characteristics of the subject car, too. Automotive content producers no longer need the physical vehicle for a shoot as the Blackbird is a do-it-all-rig.

⬐ doctorpangloss

In case anyone is wondering why you would use a CG car instead of a real car: The purpose of this vehicle is to allow large feature films to shoot with the Blackbird and sell a product-placed vehicle in post-production to the highest bidder. It's a brilliant way to maximize the value of the placement.

The Mill obviously doesn't spell this out in their press release. But this is all about native advertising.

⬐ None

None

⬐ whazor

Pretty interesting, you could sell to different bidders in different countries.

⬐ legitster

That might be true except cars have vastly different wheel sizes and wheelbases. One video would only work for a single platform. Even then, the company states that the rig is customized per car to get the ride height and tire size right.

I think they use CG cars instead of real ones for the same reason everything is CG: cost. It's cheaper to just rent one of these from a local film studio than sending out a small fleet of actual cars to film in whatever salt flat they are using this time. It also gives them more control of the look and design of the car. Did you know that 75% of the items in an IKEA catalog are CGI?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised (given the tight release schedule of some car models and the secrecy around them) that this lets them film the advertising of a car concurrently with the final production stages. They don't have any cars coming off of the line to shoot with, so it's easier to rig up the wheelbase (which is established early in production) and get the marketing done concurrently.

⬐ justinator

> That might be true except cars have vastly different wheel sizes and wheelbases.

I see you didn't watch the video where they showed the wheelbase, wheel sizes/design, width of the platform, as well as suspension tuning can all be adjusted easily.

⬐ stbtrax

I see you didn't get that that part is not done digitally but on the rig itself.

⬐ kerryfalk

Parent's point was that a single video couldn't be used to sell to multiple manufacturers, because the wheelbases are different. You would have to adjust the vehicle and shoot a new video for each new model.

⬐ dogma1138

Many cars share the same or fairly close wheel base.

Sure an SUV and a mini sedan won't but those are extremes.

Considering how many different car models use the same platform even when they are from different manufacturers since many of those are owned by the same parent company these days there is probably enough overlap to put slightly different care models over the same placeholder.

⬐ chii

I find it a bit sad that so much tech has been put into advertising, which, as an industry is inefficient and a costly zero sum game.

⬐ function_seven

Agreed, but consider it an analog of war technology. Much of it finds its way to more civilized uses.

In this case, what we have here is a great tool for vehicular motion capture that can be used in gaming and simulators as well. Ads may have been the motivation to begin with, but other uses can reap the benefits as well.

⬐ kerryfalk

Reducing the cost of getting your message to the market without changing your customer acquisition rate is by definition not a zero sum game.

⬐ robbrown451

I think they are saying advertising itself is the zero sum game....not this particular modification to it. (and I don't agree advertising is a zero sum game, I think it is a very, very small number sum game :) )

⬐ PhasmaFelis

"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads." --Jeffrey Hammerbacher

⬐ arijun

Well, maybe not entirely zero sum--if the advertisement lets you know about something you'd want but previously didn't know about, that's a net plus. Then again, those diet pill ads and other scams are a net minus, so maybe it washes out to 0 net.

⬐ chii

> if the advertisement lets you know about something you'd want but previously didn't know about, that's a net plus

i count those things not as adverts, but as information sources. An advert is something that tries to convince you to buy _their_ brand of a thing, rather than informing you of the existance of a thing you didnt know about. Suppose there's a universal catalog which lists all possible products/services, then you'd have no need of the former, but the latter is still a zero sum game.

⬐ kerryfalk

I don't really grasp your analogy but your definition of advertising is not complete. Advertising does indeed include messages to increase product/brand awareness. It could be argued that in most advertising, this is actually the case.

⬐ chii

> product/brand awareness

this is the distinction i'd like to make - branding advertising is the zero sum game i was talking about above. Product awareness is simply information - using an advert to tell me about a thing that i didnt know is not really advertising to me, but showing me that a certian music player is so much better, because it makes me hip and cool , _is_ advertising of the zero sum kind.

If i were to buy a music player, i want information, specs, and i'll choose based on objective comparisons. I don't want to, or need to take branding into account, and neither should anyone else! It's illogical!

⬐ manigandham

> I don't want to, or need to take branding into account, and neither should anyone else! It's illogical!

And yet you do, even if you think you don't. There are hundreds of billions of dollars spent on branding because it works, it's human behavior to have preferences and emotions and tapping into that as a business is the opposite of illogical.

⬐ arijun

It's a bit tautological to say "If you remove all but x, then it's comprised entirely of x." I don't think most people would agree with your definition of ads, either. The first iphone ads were probably showing a lot of people something they didn't know existed, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who called the "iphone information services" instead of ads. Even in the realm of what you might consider to be zero sum ads, that might not always be the case. "Oh this car has 4 wheel drive? That's something I could actually use." Boom, added utility.

⬐ tomcam

How is advertising zero sum?

⬐ chii

the amount you pay to stay on top is directly proportional to the amount your competitors pay to get you off the top.

⬐ manigandham

These are the same sentiments echoed by people who think we should stop spending on space development so we can focus on world hunger instead. That's not how it works.

Technology benefits everyone regardless of where it originates. Advertising is also a massive industry and economic driver that has led to the commercialization of the internet and many of the content, services and companies you perhaps take for granted today.

It's also by no means zero-sum as connecting products/services to customers is necessary to actually build all these other non-advertising businesses. For all the hate that advertising gets, the reality is that it's a critical component for any company's success.

⬐ honkhonkpants

The video looks super fake at around 1:05. The rear wheel is in the wrong spot.

⬐ talmand

The whole body of the car has the wrong rotation at that point. The front tire is off as well.

⬐ subinsebastien

It took me a while to pause the video at the exact spot.

⬐ callesgg

And the car looks like it has to low weight.

⬐ habi

Here's the direct link to that time point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnBC5bwV5y0&t=65

⬐ amelius

But how do you film somebody getting in and out of the car?

⬐ theoh

Is that an action that typically appears in filmed car advertising?

⬐ jessriedel

It's fairly common. Think the successful male stepping out of the car and greeting his attractive wife.

⬐ alkonaut

Very specific to different cultures I think. I was very surprised when I visited the US and noticed cars being marketed towards men with attributes like "tough" etc.

In Scandinavia it's always practical/classy/stylish or humorous.

It would be impossible to market a car with some rock music and a man appearing successful by having an attractive wife (maybe just maybe if the woman was driving)

⬐ jessriedel

That's kind of beside the point. Whatever the cultural difference, there are plenty of European car ads that feature shots of people in the car, or entering/exiting it.

⬐ theoh

I was able to confirm it by watching a "top 10" of car ads on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eekrb4wJl-k

The ad "tall girl" (Volkswagen, 2013) has a shot where a man exits a small car and is effectively measured against the car and even the frame (his head is cropped when he straightens up). The idea is that it shows that, after a string of shorties, she's about to meet someone who is tall enough for her.

Interestingly the first ad in that Youtube video is the animated dancing robot Citroen C4 from 2005 -- entirely CG. There's also a full scale model car made out of cake, and other humorous tricks. Not a lot of potential roles for the Blackbird.

Another collection of ads (top 10) starts with a VW car driving along with a dog with his head out the window. I think that would pose similar problems for the Blackbird methodology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuXJwR7SKok

It's quite possible that witty art direction and the whole VR/environment mapping/mass customization agenda of the Blackbird are products of two groups of people who just don't intersect in reality.

⬐ sandworm101

So it draws a shell atop the stand in? That isn't enough. It doesn't seem to model flex, body roll, vibration or even accurate suspension movements. It won't fool car guys.

⬐ kerryfalk

They state in the video that they can adjust the suspension (I imagine this is more than just spring rates and shock stiffness but they didn't confirm). Watching the videos I was actually impressed that it seemed to accurately model the difference between a mustang and a corvette (I am a fairly serious "car guy"). The thing that got me was an Aveo spinning the rear tires... They didn't state if they could change the drive wheels. In most ads I would guess this wouldn't matter much.

⬐ sandworm101

The rig they are using is modeling only wheel movements, not proper suspension setups. Can it model how a Fiat500 will lift a rear tire in a sharp corner? You cannot do that with such a low center of gravity.

⬐ kerryfalk

I've seen Formula SAE cars do that. You can indeed make that happen. In that car it could be as simple as reducing the front spring rates and softening the shocks while putting a stiffer roll bar in the rear.

⬐ NegativeLatency

Yeah the CG is obviously way too low when they show the white sedan sliding around in the parking lot.

Also they say "any" car, but what they really mean is any car with worse performance characteristics than this car. (Try using it to simulate a F1 car)

⬐ ygra

> Try using it to simulate a F1 car

Those usually don't get that much advertisement because not that many people buy them.

⬐ sawthat

It's not automated. They take the data and use it to help create a CG car, but the final work is done by human animators.

It might not fool "car guys" but a large number of car commercials shoot with CG cars now.

⬐ mattalbie

100% correct.

⬐ amelius

Why do you need a rig? Can't ML algorithms predict what kind of movements a car should make to look realistic?

⬐ talmand

The rig helps with the outside environment as well. Don't have to fake tires going over multiple surfaces when you filmed real tires. Then there are the reflections. And so on.

⬐ samwestdev

But how do you chroma key the blackbird out of the video?

⬐ izym

From what I could see, you don't. Rather it seems like they're just putting the render on top of the video, which fully occludes the blackbird.

⬐ stevecalifornia

My only dream is to one day invent something as clever and useful as this (and to produce a marketing video as succinct and informative).

⬐ duaneb

It's actually less clever and useful than this makes it out to be. CG is already prevalent in car ads, so introducing a new physical rig isn't the game changer it is made out to be.

⬐ PhasmaFelis

So now car ads can be even less honest than they already were.

Great.

⬐ randyrand

This is super commonplace.

Look at apple's ads. Their almost all renderings. Most people don't care as it looks exactly like the real product.

⬐ mkehrt

No, they're mostly actual photographs by this guy: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/8/4311868/the-illusion-of-sim...

⬐ Fuzzwah

"actual photographs"

ie: heavily retouched photos

https://youtu.be/rqC2xpCaG80?t=68

⬐ thawkins

So its hasicaly designed to lie to consumers, so that even that product ads they are seeing are completly fake.

⬐ stephentmcm

Car ads aren't fake already? Half the ads I see feature CG cars driving an endless blank whiteness or through similarly impossible landscapes.

This looks like a sweet way to shoot car scenes for movies, I wonder if it can take a roll-cage/extra safety features.

⬐ wingerlang

I doubt they would put this kind of rig in any form of "stunt" mode. Seems like it carries reallly really expensive gear.

⬐ berkut

Car ads have been using CG cars for almost 10 years now in a lot of cases, especially photos.

A lot of product ads are as well - Ikea catalogue "photos" are almost always CG renders.

⬐ sorenjan

CG images in IKEA catalogues are pretty recent.

http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/cgsfeatures/cgsfeaturespe...

⬐ berkut

4/5 years ago isn't that recent in advertising terms...

⬐ graiz

Most car sites now allow the end user to customize their car with color, trim & options. I can see this being used to give the end-user a realistic view of what the car will look like.

Mass customization of cars is increasingly possible with high-end 3D printers and tech like this may allow you to insert your own idea of what your car will look like into a Hollywood style commercial.

At the end of the day, car commercials already show people drifting around corners and skidding to a stop. Realistic commercials of cars stuck in traffic isn't going to move any units.

⬐ mattalbie

I work at a competitor to The Mill so I have a little insight into this process. Ad agencies have grown accustomed to spending an enormous amount of money on VFX to make the cars in their spots look as perfect and attractive as possible (same with soda, people's faces, etc). They call this "beauty" work. For high end commercials this single line item can be over $30k (though I'm pretty sure The Mill charges more than I do). Most of the car commercials I do end up with full CG cars regardless of what they shoot because 1 they want the cars to look perfect, 2 they want to enhance the cars attractive qualities beyond all reality, 3 they want to be able to control every pixel, 4 they want to change elements of the car for different markets. That last one is probably a big reason The Mill would invest this kind of R&D in the project.

Doctorpangloss's point about product placement is no small thing either. As foreign markets become a bigger part of box office take being able to sell 5 different product placement deals in the same 20 shots is a big win.

⬐ jessriedel

Background from Wikipedia for others: "The Mill is a VFX & Creative Content studio headquartered in London, United Kingdom, with three offices in the United States... The Mill is usually well represented at the numerous Advertising and Visual Effects awards ceremonies world-wide each year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mill_(post-production)