HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Thanks for pointing this out. It should be said, however, that Kuhn did cite Polanyi pretty extensively.

Related: Destin, at the Smarter Every Day YouTube channel, has been kind of sliding into the same distinction Polanyi outlined, between "tacit knowledge" and explicit knowledge. Destin would label those "understanding" and "knowledge", respectively, but he has a lot of neat demonstrations of this distinction, e.g. riding a backwards bicycle[0], or hovering a helicopter[1].

[0] https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

[1] https://youtu.be/eXR1olg_I0w

⬐ kashyapc

Well, if Kuhn cited Polanyi "pretty extensively" this wouldn't happen; citing from the Wikipedia (I know; there's a reference) entry:

"Supporters of Polanyi charged Kuhn with plagiarism, as it was known that Kuhn attended several of Polanyi's lectures, and that the two men had debated endlessly over epistemology before either had achieved fame. After the charge of plagiarism, Kuhn acknowledged Polanyi in the Second edition of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.[7] Despite this intellectual alliance, Polanyi's work was constantly interpreted by others within the framework of Kuhn's paradigm shifts, much to Polanyi's (and Kuhn's) dismay"

⬐ routerl

Yeah, you're right. I misremembered. Thanks for the correction.

Check out the Backwards Brain Bicycle. Lots of fun.

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ qwertox

This is worth a watch, from Smarter Every Day.

⬐ shard

Isn't it just muscle memory? Like how it is difficult to switch back and forth between a Qwerty keyboard and a Dvorak keyboard, except with the addition of balance thrown in.

⬐ FatalLogic

Related (adapting to everyday life while wearing goggles/glasses that invert and mirror vision): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M._Stratton#Wundt's_lab...

Learning to ride a bike with inverted vision goggles: https://youtu.be/-kohUpQwZt8?t=16

⬐ world_of_fourth

Great! thanks for sharing

I don't think that would prove anything at all, since knowing how something works doesn't mean you can use it in place of your usual behaviour. You also have to unlearn manipualting things in non-mirror space.

Smarter Every Day actually has a video demonstrating a similar thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

Riding a bike is hard. It is a lot like swimming, so many motions at the same time. The body has to think it, not the cortex. There is this great smarter everyday segment on a reverse bike. I recommend it for everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

My kids first word was, "no". Her first sentence was, "help me no". I use those as guides to maintain the distance she desires.

Athletics like art are one of those accomplishments and outlets that kids can embrace at a young age w/o having the "when I grow up" statements. They can start living their lives in the now w/o adults putting it off to a later date.

Watching a kid finally get riding a bike is a wonderful thing.

Try learning to ride bike with inverted steering, try to navigate world with your vision flipped over or use your non-dominant hand to do things that you normally do. Well, try to write on Azerty keyboard if you are Qwerty native (really, fk Azerty :P).

Humans are also not a general intelligence.

In certain sense Deep Reinforcement Learning is actually more general than human intelligence. For example, when playing games you can remove certain visual clues. It makes it almost impossible to play for humans, while Deep RL scores will not even budge. It means that Deep RL is more general, because it does not relay on certain priors, but it also makes it more stupid in narrow domain of human expertise. Try this game to see yourself: https://high-level-4.herokuapp.com/experiment

Here is bike with reverse steering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0 Here is flipped vision experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHMvEMy7B9k

Human brains are amazing, but they also require certain amount of time to retrain when inputs/outputs are fundamentally changed.

PS. I didn't hear about anyone testing different board sizes with AlphaZero-esque computer players. But I saw Leela Zero beating very strong humans, when rules of the game were modified so that that the human player could play 2 additional moves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFOyzU506pY

⬐ rytill

Perfect explanation, down to earth and could be ELI5. Humans are so specialized.

⬐ jmnicolas

Fk QWERTY. (written from an AZERTY keyboard :p )

⬐ inimino

This is true too, we are adapted to our environment, in particular the things that we do automatically (System I).

Playing chess well is a combination of both conscious and unconscious skills. However when deep learning systems play, it is all the unconscious, automatic application of statistical rules. They are playing a very different game from the human chess game.

Because there is no abstract reasoning involved here, these systems cannot apply the lessons learned from chess to another board game, or to something completely different in life, which humans can and do. So even though they are much stronger than human players, they aren't strong in the same way.

I wonder how similar that is to the effect of the "backwards bike" shown in "Smarter every day": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

It seems like there's a very deep idea of how a bike should work and instead of learning the new behaviour bit by bit the new idea just "clicks" at some point. I've heard people with up/down flipped goggles also say it's quite sudden change. I'm curious if it's similar for reconnected nerves?

⬐ stickydink

That instant clicking is exactly how it feels (for me at least) learning to play music.

I'll practice the same thing over and over, for an hour maybe. It takes so much brain power, it feels weird, sometimes it's good, mostly it's not.

Then stop, go to sleep, come back tomorrow, and 25% of the time it'll just be there with no thought or effort required whatsoever.

⬐ zeta0134

This! This is so hard to explain to others who are trying to get into learning a new instrument. The most frustrating part is that rarely will I see the results of my practice on the day of practice, especially for tricky sections, which can make the sessions feel kinda useless. Then I'll come back a day or two later and suddenly my hands know what to do. "Okay let's start at marker B and... oh, okay!"

The hard part then, of course, is letting them get on with it, and only correcting actual mistakes. If I try to analyze what they're doing the whole thing kinda falls apart. That moment when I can switch from focusing on notes and rhythm to ... more like conducting from afar is the moment when a piece really starts to feel playable. But getting there is always a challenge, and pushing through that challenge is the toughest part.

It's really kinda fun to go back to a piece that I used to know really well and dust off the cobwebs. "Now how did this section go? .. I have no idea what chord that was. Hrm... maybe if I start from a phrase earlier and play into it... oh... oh that's how it went!"

But, anecdotally at least, you can unlearn how to ride a bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

From the excellent smartereverday youtube channel

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

Strongly recommend to watch the above video.He does an experiment on how long it takes to get comfortable by changing the handle bars.

Reminded me of this Smarter Every Day video, which is definitely worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

(The Backwards Brain Bicycle)

⬐ aequitas

I also rode this kind of bike once as a kid on a fair. Same thing, the reflex was to strong and familiar to consciously override it. I had a similar experience like this when I wanted to learn snowboarding, I tried to do it myself without lessons. Learning to stand, slide (front and back) and break on a board was 'easy'. But I was taking to long teaching myself to turn a slide into a slalom properly. Turned out my reflex to break was to strong and I had to force myself to unlearn this reflex.

I wonder if he could walk normally (forward) again after his backward trip.

Perhaps this is related: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable...

And perhaps this Smarter-Every-Day video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ mirimir

He started as an adult, so I doubt that there were permanent effects. It does remind me of those experiments with kittens, where researchers mounted prisms over their eyes, and then studied their optic pathways, using intracranial electrodes and so on. In those cases, brain development basically reversed whatever distortion the prisms caused.

But damn, teaching a kid to ride that backwards bike is sick.

> Could we teach our brain to "think in 4D" and interpret these cues differently? To a certain extent probably, maybe if you spent hours and hours and hours in a VR simulation with 4D objects you'd starting getting a feel for it. I doubt you'd ever get as good as with 3D objects since we've been exposed to these literally every waking moment since we're born.*

Good lord! Has anyone tried?

This reminds me of the backwards bicycle video on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0). I... really want to try what you're suggesting.

⬐ ianai

Yes mathematicians have tried to visualize 4d for quite some time. I remember hearing about one who famously spent much time to developing a notion of 4d.

It’s possible to represent n+1-d scenes into n-d scenes.

⬐ None

None

⬐ weaksauce

That was a fascinating video. I wonder if the clicking in the brain is similar to the eye crossing effect of those 3d from noisy pictures.

⬐ TheSpiceIsLife

In the YouTube video he says:

"So here's why I did. It was a personal challenge. I stayed out here in this driveway and I practiced about 5 minutes every day. ... after 8 month it happened ... in two weeks he (the son) did something that took me 8 months to do".

Well, if you were serious about learning a skill you wouldn't just do one 5 minute session per day for eight months.

A more appropriate training regime would be way more intensive than one 5 minute session per day. Are we to believe he limited his son to one 5 minute session a day?

Do children really learn languages quicker than adults? By age 3, children will probably have words for almost everything. Babies might even say mama and dada by 6 months of age.

Children have several language learning advantages over adults: complete immersion; it is imperative they learn; effectively unlimited time; no responsibilities.

But, it takes them years to learn their native language to basic competency.

Compare: an English speaker can learn Afrikaans, Danish, Dutch, French, Italian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Romanian, Spanish, or Swedish to General Professional Proficiency in Speaking and Reading in 600 hours carried out over 24 weeks (25hrs per week). Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean, or Arabic will take 2200 hours over 88 weeks (25hrs per week).[1]

Is it easier for a child? Yeah probably, they don't even have to look after themselves.

If I could live as a child in a foreign language house in a foreign language city, with only two tasks: learn to speak and read the language to basic competency, and learn to ride a backwards bicycle, I'm firmly of the believe I could out pace the 95th percentile of children at both tasks.

As an aside, he says his son is the closest person to him genetically, but aren't his parents both equally as close to him genetically as his son?

1. http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/lang...

⬐ jesusth1

Yeap, https://youtu.be/oI2aMKwXXnE this guy took a more serious attempt at learning to ride the backwards and it seems it didn't take him that much time.

⬐ TheSpiceIsLife

Thanks for finding that.

So it only took him about an hour, over three days, to get it worked out well enough to not immediately fall off, and an hour and a half over four days to get to 50 meters.

There's a comment in on the YT video from Destin saying "the RC helicopter pilot was able to learn it in about an hour but I don't think his brain is normal" - good point, the RC helicopter pilot has more experience understanding reversed input while the helicopter is flying toward him, also he had the opportunity to watch Mike learn first.

I reckon the learning process could be sped up even more by taking the pedals of, turning it in to a balance bike, learning how to ride it down slight inclines, get that sorted then putting the pedals back on.

⬐ buckminster

> As an aside, he says his son is the closest person to him genetically, but aren't his parents both equally as close to him genetically as his son?

And any siblings.

That's only half the story, what happens when a sighted person takes off their blindfold after leaning how to use the device? I picture some come of synesthesia, but it's hard to say.

The most interesting thing would be if their eyes stopped being integrated for a while. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

Reminded me of this great Smarter Every Day video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

(both interesting and funny)

⬐ rootlocus

This sounds very similar to the spinning dancer illusion [1] where your brain locks into a configuration where it can see it rotate in one way or the other, but you can't control when or which.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_Dancer

⬐ loco5niner

I can control the direction. It kind of feels similar to 3D stereograms where the image just kind of 'snaps' into place, but in this case, she starts spinning the other direction. Kind of fun and quirky, and you really have to do it on purpose.

⬐ lenocinor

To provide a corroborating perspective on this, I learned to control this too, but it took a lot of practice to do it, and even now it's not 100% immediately effective for me.

⬐ loco5niner

Same here, not 100%. I actually just tried it on the spinning dancer, and the more I practiced, the better I got, but definitely not 100%. I bet I could get there with enough practice though.

This reminds me of the backwards brain bicycle a bit [1]. I get that the argument they’re making here is one of physics - but failing to ride a counterintuitive bike isn’t something that can just be ‘done’ without a lot of practice!

[1] https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ maaaats

I have been trying to ride the other way on my fixie[0] lately. I think this is kinda the same. I know what I have to do, but instinctively it all gets wrong. I can kinda override it, but then my reactions are way too delayed. So here's hoping for it will click some day..

[0]: A fixie is a bike with no freewheel. So the pedals follow the back wheel, and the other way. So if I pedal backwards, the bike goes the other way.

⬐ dancek

Driving backwards is much more difficult than driving forward because the bike doesn't self correct that way and the steering is quite unstable.

I tried to learn riding backwards last summer, too. Eventually I stopped because I needed the bike for actual riding and my knees preferred having a freewheel. A ridiculously low gear seemed to help, I tried 40x20 (on a 622 with 165mm cranks) for a while.

⬐ stevehawk

huh.. I grew up on a fixie.. I wonder if 20 years later I would just pick it up again.. or 30 years later..

note to self knock up wife.. get child fixie bike.. take bike for self when kid is at school xD I'm sure the experiment will be worth the college debt.

⬐ mattstreet

I believe you can buy hubs that are single speed and then if you flip them are fixie, might be cheaper to put that on a cheap bike than having a kid...

⬐ piva00

Yup, they are called flip-flop hubs, quite common and a bunch of bikes come with them installed so you can always choose between singlespeed or fixed gear.

⬐ rhinoceraptor

I can't ride straight backwards, but I can ride backwards in a circle from a trackstand fairly easily.

⬐ kaybe

The sport trick cycling has this in a lot of tricks. You might find some advice there if you want.

⬐ maaaats

A quick search yielded this as the top result [1], incredible! I'm going to blame you for breaking my neck when I attempt this later, haha.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUiiJI_tPVk

⬐ dahauns

If you like this, take a look at Radball (cycle ball): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0moQPqtmrTY

Maybe not as elegant as the artistic cyclists, but that almost incidental level of control is insane.

⬐ kaybe

I used to do that as a kid (stopped before I could do all the tricks in the video). You want to have a suitable underground(1) and a friend to catch you the first few tries until you know where the bike goes when you fall. The main path to injury is falling onto the bike. If you avoid that it's way safer than football/soccer. Note that the bikes in the video have a different center of mass from normal bikes so it's easier to get the front up. Have fun!

(1) In Germany we do this in clubs and proper sports halls as seen in the video with elastic flooring. Don't attempt tarmac until you definitely know what you're doing.

⬐ avar

I also recommend learning to ride a unicycle for people who want to get better bike skills. It's like riding a bike except with a brand new plane of movement.

It's also very safe to try out and do, which is counterintuitive to most people who haven't tried. Overwhelmingly the most common failure mode on a unicycle is that you just stop riding it, and then it either gets ahead of you or behind you, and you hop onto the ground.

Your body's also always approximately vertical no matter what they incline you're riding up/down is. So e.g. riding down stairs on a unicycle is much safer than on a bike, if you screw it up you just let it roll ahead of you and you're standing on the steps.

I'll do that without hesitation on a unicycle, but on a bicycle there's no way I'm doing that on on anything except a mountain bike I trust.

⬐ jandrese

The biggest safety feature of a unicycle is that you don't even try to go fast.

⬐ antoineMoPa

At first you don't.

But then there are 36 inch unicycles, which can go quite fast. I started with a 24' (< 10 km/h), then I bought a 29' (< 18 km/h). The 29' does feel fast. One day, I'd like to buy a 36', which would be a bit slower than a bicycle, but still quite fast. Some people ride them around the world [42].

[42] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WrGJ8A0Y1o

⬐ hazeii

Worth pointing out that while learning, failed mounts can result in the unicycle departing the vicinity at some speed (especially with smaller ones, e.g. 20").

⬐ lurquer

>It's also very safe to try out and do, which is counterintuitive to most people who haven't tried. Overwhelmingly the most common failure mode on a unicycle is that you just stop riding it, and then it either gets ahead of you or behind you, and you hop onto the ground.

Ha. My experience with a unicycle was the exact same as my experience with Segway and Hoverboard: flat on my back, knocked-out cold, with back-sprain that lasted months.

⬐ tcfunk

Reminds me of the time I learned Dvorak.

⬐ samstave

Random anecdote/fact; an ex GF in HS was Dvorak's niece... she didn't have very nice things to say about him, just said he was super full of himself. I was really interested in meeting him, but after all the things she had to say about him, I lost interest, and stopped thinking I would be "cool" to switch to dvorak.

⬐ Johnny555

and stopped thinking I would be "cool" to switch to dvorak

If you're thinking of switching (or not) to a product or service because of the inventor's personality, you're already "not cool".

If people based their use of Linux on Linus's personality, it'd still be a hobbyist OS.

⬐ dkersten

Good thing I chose colemak over dvorak ;)

Off topic: I didn’t do it for speed though, I did it for typing comfort, and as someone who has had RSI scares, I’m really happy with my decision (and with my decision to get a Kinesis Advantage ergonomic keyboard). My two main activities these days are hand-intensive: typing and sleight-of-hand card magic. I need my hands to be in good shape! Honestly, I’m a little baffled by how few programmers use ergonomic keyboards, since their hands are so important to what they do, but only a little, since it took me years before I finally bought one myself despite thinking about it for a long time (I regret not doing so sooner).

⬐ None

None

⬐ arafa

This was my exact experience in learning an alternate keyboard layout. Worked out great for RSI and I've never looked back (though it was painful to start).

⬐ samstave

I imagine you in this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoKErz_HtGA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZxX3-rJoNI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BniKoHRlMi0

⬐ dkersten

Haha! That's great, thanks for posting, got a good laugh from it :) If only I had hands like that ;-)

⬐ sooper

The cost of the alternative shape keyboards put me (and a lot of colleagues I've talked to) off for a long time. Glad I did finally save up to buy one! Pity I work on the road a lot and have to still use laptop keyboards a lot of the time.

⬐ tomsthumb

The cost of a single PT appointment (much less a handful) should be enough for most people on dev salaries to consider the extra cost of a good ergonomic keyboard. Something something Sam Vimes and boots.

⬐ dkersten

The cost was definitely a big part of it, I delayed for a long time because it seemed too expensive to me. In hindsight, given how much time I spend typing, it really isn't expensive at all, its just a big up-front cost... I now even use a 3 button foot pedal and love it.

> Pity I work on the road a lot and have to still use laptop keyboards a lot of the time.

Yeah, I use laptops and an iPad too and its obviously not very comfortable in comparison. Luckily I've managed to avoid it a lot lately, but its not always possible. It really sucks when I have to use an ordinary keyboard though and I definitely feel the discomfort :/

⬐ justadudeama

I was going to say the same thing. And when I wen't back to QWERTY, it eventually switched and I could type fast.

⬐ xenadu02

It is possible to achieve high typing speed on both; I did just that for a few years by switching back and forth on a regular basis. In the end the inconvenience simply wasn’t worth it and I gave up.

⬐ justadudeama

Did you give up QWERTY or Dvorak?

⬐ lenocinor

Not the original commenter, but I had a similar experience, and gave up QWERTY. I point and peck the few times I have to use it (which isn't often, except on phones where it doesn't really matter for me) and that's worked well enough for me for many years.

⬐ skookumchuck

The thing is, I don't actually know what the editing commands are on my editor. My fingers know them, though. Sometimes I watch my fingers to see what the command is.

⬐ Bromskloss

I hardly know what my password is.

⬐ bunderbunder

Every time I change my work password, I commit it to memory for about a day, until it's in my muscle memory. Shortly after that, I can bang it out on a keyboard in easily under a second, but I cannot write it on a piece of paper.

⬐ zeta0134

I have this pretty much 100% of the time when I'm playing a piano piece, especially an older piece that I've somewhat forgotten. It's not so much that I'm re-learning the notes, it feels more like I'm coaxing the requisite movement back out of my hands. It's hard to explain, like... I can't really start a musical phrase halfway through because I don't know what notes I'm actually playing without the sheet music in front of me. But if I start at the beginning, my hands will do the right thing from muscle memory.

⬐ Retra

I use to have the same trouble with my locker combo in high school. I could spin the lock open, but I couldn't tell you the numbers.

I would occasionally lose the muscle memory too, for about a week at a time.

⬐ sumedh

Back in the day I could easily ride a bicycle without using my hands from the start with just one or two pedal stroke. I believe riding a backwards bicycle would have been easier if you dont use your hands.

⬐ skookumchuck

That's how to win his $200 prize!

⬐ trumped

I suspect that this one is more like if you were stuck in space with no propulsion and nothing to throw... so you can't move.

⬐ laythea

Awesome link. Thank you.

⬐ rkuykendall-com

His videos are amazing. I recommend Prince Rupert's Drop among many many others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe-f4gokRBs

⬐ skookumchuck

A long time ago I saw a documentary where a guy wore special glasses that turned everything upside down. He wore them all day except when sleeping, and masked his eyes when sleeping. After a couple weeks, suddenly the world was right side up again.

But taking the headset off, now everything was upside down.

⬐ B1FF_PSUVM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M._Stratton

Interesting dude. Experiments seem to have been about a century ago.

(I thought I'd read that this had been done earlier, but Stratton comes up when looking for "glasses that turned everything upside down" as mentioned)

Do you remember the list of other skills?

I think it's kind of like teaching someone how to ride a bike. No amount of theory and coaching will help until the connections form in their brain.

Smarter everyday has an interesting video[1] on this phenomenon where he showed that it takes considerable effort to learn to ride a "backward" bike and once you do, you will forget how to ride a normal one and need to relearn it.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ Doxin

Note that he didn't entirely forget how to ride a normal bike, It only took him a couple tries for his brain to switch the normal-bike-riding-program back on.

See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0 YouTube channel Smarter Every Day tries to ride a bike that has been hacked to reverse which way the wheel goes when the handlebars are turned, which also reveals how much bike riding skill is implicit.

(I also experience the "clicking" he refers to around 6:10 when I switch between QWERTY and Dvorak layouts. It takes about 15-30 seconds to switch, even after all the years I've been doing this, and I can "feel" it slide into place. This despite the fact that I use Swype (or whatever it is spelled as) on my phone all the time, which means I stay very familiar with the QWERTY layout every day... but somehow that qualifies as a different "thing", because I always get that instantly.)

⬐ seszett

About your keyboard, my experience after having used both a (Canadian multilingual) QWERTY MacBook and other computers with regular AZERTY keyboards for years, is that everytime I use some keyboard that vaguely feels Apple-y (with flat keys, white or grey) I somehow try to use it as a QWERTY. Then after a few seconds of mistyping things, I can eventually use it correctly, but it really seems like it's the look of the keyboard that makes me choose which layout I use.

It's probably different for everyone, in my case my brain has found the look of the keyboard to be the best predictor, for others it could be something else. But it's really interesting, sometimes it takes me a while before I notice that, indeed, this keyboard looks a bit like a Mac keyboard.

⬐ taneq

I had this the first time I rode a motorcycle. The first day, everything was really jerky and uncoordinated because I had to do everything consciously. Woke up the next morning and my brain had remapped clutch from left foot to left hand, throttle/brake from right foot to right hand, gears from left hand to left foot, and the bike "just worked" the way I expect cars to.

I agree - surely adults can learn these tennis strokes, even if they are harder to pick up.

There is an absolutely fascinating video about plasticity of learning between adults and children that I'd highly recommend watching [1].

A man built a "backwards bicycle", where the handlebars steer the bike in the opposite direction to what you would expect. It was almost impossible for him to ride the bike more than a few feet at a time before falling off. Finally, after 8 months of consistent practice, he could ride it relatively well.

When he put his 6-year-old son on the bike (who'd been riding a normal bicycle for 3 years), he had it mastered just 2 weeks later.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ animal531

I'm with you. But also from that video is the correlation where the son has only been riding for 3 years whereas the guy has been riding for e.g. 30 years.

I'm interested in what would the difference be for them to alter a learned skill if they'd been practicing for the same amount of time (so that it's less set in stone)? I'm certain his son would have still been an order of magnitude or 2 faster, but probably quite a bit less than the original number.

I remember a few years ago I learned that I had been tying my shoes wrong my whole life (tying a granny knot instead), so my shoelaces would come loose at least once per day. It took me a few weeks of practice to manually think through the hand movements to make the new know before my brain got used to just doing it without thinking about it.

I'd imagine that as a child it should have been at least 10x easier to re-learn.

⬐ dth_omn_str

He does say in the video that wasn't trying to actively learn to ride it. Where as the guy in this video [1] claims it only took him 1 h 29 min. You could probably argue that his age might have helped, but it could also be equally true that he used better methods of practice to achieve that goal.

Destin also admits

"It took me 8 months to learn how to do this, but I was only picking up the bike and running to the end of the driveway and back every day. I wasn't "ACTIVELY" trying to learn. Meaning... I wasn't struggling and trying to make my brain learn. I simply got on the bike every day, tried to operate it to the end of the driveway, turned around and tried to operate it back. The goal was to understand how my brain figured things out on its own, without trying to force it to. Many people have built bikes like this and figured it out in much less than 1 day by staying on the bike until they were able to master it. I had no timelines, and was using this as an exploratory activity to learn how I learn."

[1]https://youtu.be/nFw2JiWhTUk

⬐ jw1224

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Interesting point - thanks.

⬐ hvidgaard

With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if he could learn it in a few hours if he really put effort into it.

One of my friends one day forwarded me the YouTube link to Backwards Brain Bicycle by Dustin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0) and I was so amazed by how our brains cling to the meanings of relative phenomena we've learnt in the past and how it characterizes our behavior as humans. For example, that's why we find it so hard to give up a certain habit. Our response, a replication of the concept in the form of a simple game. Let us know what you think.

I assume it's very analogous to Destin's "backwards bicycle" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

Later on in the video, he mentions that having gotten used to the backwards bike, a regular bike was nearly impossible to ride until he adjusted to it again.

I know what you are trying to say, but I have known engineers in their 70s who have a really hard time grasping new concepts, and your splitting weight analogy doesn't cover such things, you can't "divide a concept".

Yeah, we should be good with each other and nice with each other, but sometimes that is not in line with how the market/capitalism works. I don't think I was completely right but I don't think neither are you.

Brain plasticity is a real thing, and it goes away really quickly, is depressing but is a reality, I'm 27 but I already feel my reflexes are a bit worse than when I was 24, here is a nice video that gives some perspective about the issue, you may have seen it before (reverse bicycle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

I know what you are trying to say, but I have known engineers in their 70s who have a really hard time grasping new concepts, we should be good with each other and nice with each other, but sometimes that is not in line with how the market/capitalism works. I don't think I was completely right but I don't think neither are you.

Brain plasticity is a real thing, and it goes away really quickly, is depressing but is a reality, I'm 27 but I already feel my reflexes are a bit worse than when I was 24, here is a nice video that gives some perspective about the issue, you may have seen it before (reverse bicycle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

Two points:

1. The opportunity costs for switching away are high. I suspect this comes into play in many areas -- say, emigrants to a new country who never develop a high functioning level of language skill (something I'll add applies just as much to English speakers abroad as those moving to English-speaking countries, if not more). And yes, there absolutely are exceptions, often many.

You're highly effective in using one language. You operate functionally at the level of a young child in another. Cross training to the new language is a massive investment of effort. Adult minds lose plasticity present in children, so the task is inherently harder. Plus you've got to do everything else necessary to keep going. It's a Red Queen's race.

Shifting tracks requires a very real sacrifice both in increased effort and reduced reward. It can be short-term satisficing to continue stretching out the lucrative current skill so long as possible. Situational awareness of that dead end may not dawn until late in the game as well.

2. Some skills are synergetic -- knowing one thing makes learning another easier. And yes, I see this all the time, particularly in metaphorical spaces. Thinking is I strongly suspect very much a matter of analogs, and collecting and applying appropriate analogs helps.

But ingrained knowledge is ... quite different. Changing handedness, or quitting habitual behavior (drugs, smoking, alcohol, gambling) is exceptionally difficult.

YouTube's "Smarter Every Day" has a great segement on learning to ride a backwards-engineered bicycle headset. Using gearing, the response of handlebars and wheels is reversed. It's all but impossible to ride this bike if you know how to ride a regular one, though you can learn, with sufficient time.

But: learning to ride the backwards bike makes riding a normal bike impossible. Until you've learned to context-switch between the two.

Fascinating bit of applied psychology.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

I've been tying Ian's "world's fastest shoelace knot" for a few years now. It took me about a week or two to get comfortable with it and it really is amazingly fast.

It's interesting to experience your brain relearning a habit that has become so ingrained. Reminds me of the Smarter Everyday backward bike episode [1]. In fact, I just tried to tie my old 2 loop knot and accidentally tied Ian's knot again.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ andrewingram

I've been using it for years too. I like deliberately boring someone by asking them if they want to see me tie my laces. Then I do it, and they're like "wait, let me see that again..."

⬐ malone

I've just been practicing Ian's fastest knot for the last 10 minutes and I can definitely see the speed advantage already.

My only issue is in keeping the starting knot tight. I usually use the standard shoelace knot which makes it easy to keep tension on the lace at all times, and that keeps the starting knot tight. But I'm finding with Ian's fastest knot I lose tension when I'm pushing the two loops towards each other, which causes the starting knot to loosen slightly. Is that something that can be solved with more practice?

⬐ c17r

Try the Double Start Knot on Ian's page, it holds the tension better

http://fieggen.com/shoelace/doublestartknot.htm

⬐ brianpan

I don't know when I made this change, but apparently I use my middle finger to hold down the starting knot. I tie it exactly as pictured (left hand/yellow string behind, right hand/blue string in front), except starting at step 1 my left hand middle finger is holding down the starting knot. This keeps the tension while tying the knot.

⬐ tzs

Interesting video. I'm somewhat surprised no one has been hurt trying it out at his lectures, though. In some of the clips, the challengers seemed close enough to the edge of the raised stage that with a little bad luck it looked like they could have rolled off the stage or fallen sideways off it.

There are a couple followups that would be interesting.

1. Try this on a tricycle. On a tricycle you steer in the turn direction and do not need to lean, as opposed to a bike where your counter-steer and lean. It would be interesting to see if that less complicated steering interaction would make it easier or quicker to adapt.

2. Try on a bicycle with training wheels, adjusted so you can still lean but aren't going to actually fall over. (This is important because if you can't lean the training wheels have essentially made the bike into a trike and so the experiment has been reduced to #1).

The idea here is that in most of his videos people were failing very fast. They might not be getting a long enough ride each time to provide enough examples of control actions and responses for their brain to learn much.

Perhaps the training wheels would provide longer trials, giving the brain a lot more to work with.

⬐ dewarrn1

Great example of catastrophic interference [0] in the brain! And I like Destin's stuff, but disregard the pop-neuroscience.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophic_interference

⬐ talmand

I use that knot as well. Not really much of a time saver to me, but it is a better knot than the standard way I was taught as a kid. It rarely comes untied while the old way did several times a day with recent advancements in shoe laces.

I also taught the knot to my 10-year-old just to see what she would make of it. Took her three tries to understand and now that's how she ties her shoes. It seemed much easier to explain than the standard.

⬐ monort

And if you truly want speed, just buy elastic shoe laces. After getting them, I never looked back

⬐ pluma

I'm a big fan of my Hickies but when I need to wear shoes with laces, I always do the Ian knot.

⬐ throwaway1967

Yep, I've always found shoelaces incredibly... I don't know how to put it, but it's incredible how the existence of elastics is overlooked in the production of shoe fasteners!

I use elastic shoelaces that are always tied. I can put my shoes on in half a second and run out the door and there's no way they're coming off even when I'm running.

⬐ hudibras

I'm also a big Ian knot fan. Saves me two seconds per shoe, that's four seconds per day, 1460 seconds a year, so over the next 50 years that's 20 fewer hours tying my shoes. Boom, LIFEHACK!

Seriously, it's a fun knot to tie and never comes undone.

⬐ danielbln

It's not just faster, it also holds all day. My old nots had to be redone at least once per day.

⬐ northben

I had the same experience when I learned to type on a Dvorak keyboard layout. I had to give it up (and relearn) qwerty because I was unable to use basically any other computer. Oh but I loved Dvorak!

Cars used to have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiller for direction control.

About forgetting how to steer, take a look at that video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

discussion here http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/riding-an-inverted-bike/

⬐ astrodust

That's a neat video on reversed steering.

⬐ agumonkey

Yeah, it was pretty funny to see, even though I left frustrated not having one to try.

That takes about eight months of practice apparently.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ brobinson

All of the people doing the "10 foot challenge" are looking down at the ground. Looking down at the ground in front of your bicycle (or motorcycle, or any two wheel vehicle) results in a ton of shaking and instability in the handlebars. They're making the challenge about 100x harder for themselves.

I would have taken this guy's $200 by simply lining the bike up, keeping my eyes on the horizon, and giving the pedal one solid enough push. I would probably give it back too since I violated the spirit of the challenge. :-)

Interesting video. It's funny how countersteering is a seemingly innate ability, but if you explain it to people they will deny that is how a bicycle works.

⬐ yincrash

You probably would have still failed. Balancing still requires handlebar movement even if you only press on the pedal once.

⬐ brobinson

You could easily go ten feet without any arm movement assuming you lined yourself up ahead of time and didn't look down at the ground. One solid push with arms locked would suffice.

⬐ function_seven

Only if you're an adult! :)

⬐ ars

That's an awesome video! Slightly worried about his son though :)

⬐ jpgvm

This video is amazing.

⬐ agumonkey

So much in so few time.

ps: just remembered that we had a lazy day in primary school where teachers brought asymetric bikes of all kinds (oval wheels, tilted, etc). No inverted direction though.

pps: how long would it take to learn new patterns with training wheels ?

⬐ eru

Probably longer. Might be less frustrating for some people, though.

⬐ agumonkey

I'm not sure, it seems to me that the difficulty in learning the inverted bike is that the 'experiment' has a very very high threshold. If you deviate you fall, no time for data acquisition. With training wheels you can sense that moment where you fail and start to fall but without stopping.

⬐ eru

Yes, you'll be able to spend more time on the bike. The important part of the space of variables is probably not where the training wheels put you.

To bring some (anec-)data into the discussion: I've learned unicycling and seen people learn it. The learners who jump right into it and try again and again to just ride seem to be learning faster than the learner's sliding along walls and holding helpers' hands.

⬐ rz2k

That's pretty interesting in the context of sailing. It doesn't seem to take much time at all for people to adjust between a tiller and a wheel, or standing behind or in front of a wheel. I think a lot of that has to do with sensing that force is needed to keep from rounding up into the wind. Possibly, having a rudder well forward of the mast would change that, which makes me think that it is also the immediacy of failure that makes it difficult to learn.

Anyway, if it were a useful skill, I think learning how to handle reversing handle bars could be made faster with two changes. A longer, more forward front wheel fork, would make the amount of force more apparent to the rider. Second, much larger wheels would be slower to react with failure, so the rider gets a few extra fractions of a second to learn how to react.

The backwards bicycle one is awesome because he actually spent 8 months learning to ride the ridiculous thing, and then filmed himself trying to ride a regular bike: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

⬐ mutagen

Yeah that backwards bicycle episode is worth watching.

⬐ kleer001

I experimented with this back as a teen. It's easy to simulate. Just switch your hands. Left hand goes on the right handle bar and the other with the other.

Do not do this while in motion. You will fall. At least I did. It was deathly frightening. A good jolt of respect for all the work going on behind the scenes to make bodies work together correctly.

⬐ chinpokomon

You can see people trying to do that just to rise across the stage. It may be similar, but I'm pretty sure the mechanics are just different enough.