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⬐ sennight

Nothing would make me automate faster than being told I had to accommodate employees plotting against my interests or the strategic objectives of the enterprise I built. That is especially true if there was a hint of an outside union franchise sniffing about.

⬐ KennyBlanken

Unions don't plot against the "interests or strategic objectives." They give workers collective bargaining power and representation, helping put them on equal footing with their employer to be able to negotiate fairly.

Musk is the richest man in the world right now (on paper.) Whatever the costs of allowing unions in his factories, I think he can probably handle it. Most of his problems are of his own creation, like his insistence on pushing hard for more automation when they hadn't been able to sort out their existing automation issues.

Unions are extremely common around the world. In the late 60's, something like 30% of the US workforce belonged to unions. Now it's barely above ten percent. The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's.

⬐ drstewart

>The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's.

Very insightful comment. Quick question though: how has the drop of middle class wealth correlated with the share of women and minorities in the workplace since the 60s? Do we draw conclusions against that correlation as well?

⬐ xibalba

> drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's

Another correlate, and IMO more compelling, is the size of the labor pool. Over the time frame you cite, the domestic and international labor that could viably compete for jobs grew massively and nonlinearly relative to production and end demand. In other words, an oversupply of labor was and remains a big drag on wage growth.

⬐ op00to

But insanely rich people have a god given right to get more rich at any cost. If the poors stop getting fucked over, Musk might have to … do nothing. It doesn’t matter to him financially, he’s just a massive piece of shit.

⬐ sennight

> Unions don't...

You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. Trying to link the fall in union popularity with the class divide is laughable... look to the change in Fed monetary policy and the point at which cash gets injected into the economy - that is where the gulf occurs: access to funny money financial instruments and the transfer of purchasing power from the base of the power structure to the very top through inflation.

⬐ 29293419

> You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role.

They necessarily assume an adversarial role because their employer can’t be trusted to put their best interests before profit.

Unions are the reason Tesla doesn’t hire 8 year olds to spot weld. Hint: Musk and his Emerald mine instincts don’t hold back out of pure love of humanity.

⬐ robbedpeter

Unions mean no more merit based raises or promotions. Your worst performing, laziest asshole of an employee makes the same rate as your best, most motivated employee with the same job title. Rewarding competence or initiative becomes impossible.

Unions fight for these worthless assholes as if civilization would crumble if they weren't given equal pay and benefits.

Eventually you lose your best employees because working with a permanent unfireable set of worthless coworkers is unbearable, and the department fills with people who put in the minimum amount of effort needed to not get canned. They all get fixed yearly raises based on a minimized cost of living increase that currently is waaaaaay less than inflation. Even talking about anything merit related that might result in a discussion about some people getting paid more than others is taboo, to the extent that one risks getting ousted by the union by doing so.

If a company wants to have a culture in which quality of individual work and personal drive are rewarded, they should treat unions like the plague.

Unions represent a race to the bottom for certain industries. Menial labor is different from creative work - your star package handler is not contributing to value in the same way a star engineer with multiple PhD and industry certifications does. If you eliminate the ability to reward people commensurate with the value they bring, they'll find a different occupation and communicate negatively about your company to their peers. Or they'll drop their level of output commensurate to whatever their coworkers produce sufficient to avoid unemployment.

Unions are not the best tool for all workplace related issues. Particularly with regards to the concepts of merit and work ethic.

⬐ op00to

Not true. I was in a union and received merit raises in addition to normal cost of living increases.

⬐ selimthegrim

A bunch of previously tenured faculty in Georgia might beg to differ with you there.

⬐ emptysongglass

This just isn't true and we have entire nations to prove it like Denmark, where I live and work and in which the majority are members of unions. An adversarial relationship is not inevitable nor is it desired.

I wish this unfortunate byproduct of American anti-union campaigning would stop. The US example is far from the only one and it is fanned by its bipartisan politics that have poisoned the well of cooperation we all can take part in if we just dropped the desire to crusade in anger.

I am also American and I have seen both sides.

⬐ t0suj4

In my opinion the right adversarial relationship is when you can simply threaten to walk away.

The problem I see is that the barrier of doing that was raised by business regulation, the result is that there sometimes isn't where to walk off to.

⬐ robbedpeter

I'm currently in this situation, having seen talent leave and 80% of my coworkers are useless twats. I left this situation at my previous workplace, watching a process of unionization coincide with a merger, leaving behind a horde of useless twats who then had jobs for life, regardless of competence, with management then having no history with those people. This company is now globally infamous for poor service and incompetent techs and sales people.

I've seen this play out repeatedly and inevitably in 30 years of work. Unions are an anachronism, and we need something better.

American unions are an unholy hybrid of faux social activists and lobbying factions who use "the plight of the worker" as a political bludgeon. Locally run unions devolve into cults of personality and high school style cliques, rendering political clout and social prominence to otherwise non-contributing members of society.

We don't need non governmental bureaucracies rewarding the stupid, incompetent, and lazy with pensions, benefits, and job entitlements.

⬐ op00to

Ever think that it’s not your coworkers that are useless? Maybe turn the lens inward. The only common pattern i see over your 30-year experience is you.

Maybe instead of blaming unions for your current situation, ask why haven’t you left your current job?

⬐ robbedpeter

The compensation, location, and work are good - I'm willing to put up with the nonsense for reasons that transcend the work environment. That doesn't mean I don't see problems for what they are.

I want nothing but the best for people, but I also don't think people should sneak through life and profit through the exploitation of arbitrary rules and the ignorance of employers about the exact nature of a job. The way I see it, you should be reimbursed for your work commensurate with the value you bring to an organization. I find myself in that situation, with good compensation and benefits. I joined a team of unionized people who talk a great game, but are mostly play acting at the work, and are not interested in raising the expectations or quality of work. I rocked the boat and have been taken to task numerous times for working too fast, or too much. For making the others look bad. For completing projects that were intended to be left undone as bargaining chips during contract negotiations.

I am a little resentful of the fact that they take home as much as I do. It also upsets me when people are shitty to employers. The job itself is meaningful and the work is good, the management is excellent.

The problem with unions isn't the state of things when everything works out to the benefit of everyone, including the employers - those situations can and do happen. The problem is when awful people are in charge and see the situation as an opportunity to exploit the employer and beat the system.

Unions give such people unwarranted and more or less permanent power, without recourse.

⬐ emptysongglass

I work with very competent engineers who are members of my same union. We work long hours, sometimes weekends, when the company needs it without complaint. We're in this thing together. To me, it's your attitude and frankly awful language used to describe your colleagues which is the problem.

We're all human beings, all of us. We all deserve dignity.

⬐ robbedpeter

Right, the problem is me, and how I describe them, not their poor behavior and gold-bricking.

I haven't said anything at all about their worth as human beings. What I take issue with is their behaviors - laziness, ignorance, deliberate stupidity, and the idea of being entitled to employment regardless of your contribution to the value of the employer. Unions protect the worst kind of people - occasionally they can get it right, but it is clear to me that unions are an inferior and woefully insufficient tool for labor issues. In the US, at least. I've no doubt many other countries get it right. We don't play by sane rules in the US.

⬐ js8

By all means, automate! If there are not enough jobs, people will either create BS jobs (which are usually decently paid, being outside the spotlight of corporate optimization), or they will revolt and push for basic income (and robot tax). Either way, society will be better off.

⬐ sennight

Well it certainly forces the issue, because the equation changes from:

automation cost < labor cost

to

automation cost < labor cost + cost of union rep declaring "I'm the captain now"

⬐ DuskStar

Even better -

automaton cost today < cost of never automating because the union won't let you cut jobs

⬐ op00to

Who’s gonna fix your robots?

⬐ toofy

> … plotting against the strategic objectives of the enterprise I built.

Nothing would make me unionize faster than a boss whose delusion is so thorough he has convinced himself it’s his work alone and not the team which has brought the product to life.

⬐ sennight

That is what the money is for, but I'm sure your coup d'etat would do wonders for the product and not end in a predictable cycle of cannibalization that finally gives way to business failure.

⬐ vadfa

Workers, especially line workers, are expendable. A good CEO very much is not.

⬐ SyzygistSix

A couple of arguments I have heard against unionizing at the Tesla factory is that the workers are part of the innovation that takes place there. I'm not sure if that kind of flexibility would be permitted in a union run factory. Also the UAW rarely does or is able to negotiate for stock options, which Tesla workers currently have. Although I can't speak to the validity of either of these.

Glass door seems to rate Tesla well and I doubt Tesla managed to game Glass Door but no one else has.

⬐ penjelly

> game Glass Door but no one else has.

weird to assume glassdoor is 100% immune to being gamed.

⬐ SyzygistSix

I don't but if one company can then I would imagine others with similar resources could as well. Yet some rich, tech savvy companies still have poor scores.

⬐ op00to

What? How are non-union employees “innovative”, but union employees are unable to be innovative? Just because you are a part of a union doesn’t mean your brain shuts off.

⬐ SyzygistSix

I am under the impression that job descriptions and what they are allowed to do as part of their job is constrained for union workers. As a form of protection, this makes sense, so that you can't be forced to do work that you aren't being paid for, like repairing equipment. This has both upsides and downsides and I have heard that sometimes it is taken to extremes.

⬐ ubertaco

>I doubt Tesla managed to game GlassDoor but no one else has.

Uh, gaming GlassDoor is pretty common practice. A not-insignificant number of companies tie either carrots (small bonuses) or sticks (a condition of continued employment) to employees leaving artificially-positive reviews on GlassDoor. It tends to be symptomatic of the same sort of environment where illegal union-busting tactics would be totally normal.

⬐ SyzygistSix

On one hand that makes sense but on the other hand, why does a company with tech savvy people and tons of money, like Amazon, not game it then? There are plenty of companies with both tech savvy and serious resources that have terrible GlassDoor scores.

⬐ Jcowell

Why would need to? Is there a shortage of people , warehouse and developers, not applying despite hearing about the culture?

⬐ tluyben2

I watched this John Oliver[0] a few days ago which shows that apparently (I am not from the US and also have never had to deal with unions) it does not matter anyway illegal or not.

[0] https://youtu.be/Gk8dUXRpoy8

⬐ disneygibson

John Oliver is a biased comedian out for laughs. You should never take his “investigations” as anything more than entertainment.

⬐ actually_a_dog

Is he any more or less biased than any other journalist out there? Everything in this video was factual. Do you have criticisms of the actual content besides that it was entertaining?

Edit: re: "investigations"

This isn't investigative reporting. You could have put the information in this segment together sans comedian from your laptop with probably 20 minutes of googling. It's all well known facts that are out there that he's bringing to the surface.

⬐ tragictrash

If you actually watched him, you would know that he takes on a lot of hard hitting issues.

It is a comedy show, but it's not there to educate you on these subjects. It is there to pique your intrest, and to inform you that an alternate way of looking at the subject exists, and you should go learn more about it.

⬐ hhggffdd

You really shouldn’t get your news from a comedian.

⬐ tluyben2

Yeah, I am not crazy. I know him a lot longer than this show. But I learned this from the show (I do not care much about the subject as unions are kind of normal here so as an employer I don't care either way) and looked up a few points which seem true. I should have added a ? At the end.

Is it not true? That it is illegal to fire but that the repercussions are almost nothing for the company?

I see they are trying to make far harsher laws against this in some articles but for now it seems a mess no?

⬐ djanogo

"Yeah, I am not crazy" ... "I learned this from the show" - Pick one. Like other commenters said he provides VERY biased view of any issue that he covers.

If you want to understand laws of _other_ countries you would have understand lot more laws and precedents for those laws.

Anything you "learn" from drive by political skit is garbage.

⬐ amachefe

Maybe you can try Rivian, might have better luck

⬐ SyzygistSix

I'm having a difficult time finding the numbers of unionized and non-unionized auto workers in the US. Lots of propaganda both for and against unionized autoworkers but little useful information. More and more that seems to be the state of the internet; lots of articles and information but little that is useful and what is useful is difficult to find.

Overall it looks like 2/3 of auto workers are unionized? And the split is the Big 3 versus everyone else. And it looks like the big difference is pensions. And the fact the the Big 3 make shitty cars and ginormous trucks that make little sense to me.

An interesting article about the BMW plant in Spartanburg SC finds fault with both UAW and BMW. That's the plant where I heard rumors that the German BMW workers threatened to strike on behalf of the South Carolina workers, partially to also protect their own situation though. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/09/06/spar-s06.html

I would also love to learn more about unions and workers' councils in Germany, as they sound less antagonistic with management while still managing to look out for workers. I wonder if something like that could work in the US. Either way, investigating either of these topics would be a major undertaking.

UAW benefits sound great but I sure would not be proud to work at Chrysler.

⬐ sanp

"..And the fact the the Big 3 make shitty cars..."

From a quality perspective. Tesla makes the shittiest cars.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-reliability-model-s-3-...

⬐ SyzygistSix

I was thinking more from a desirability and sales perspective. From what I've heard, the problems with the Fremont factory were not replicated in the Chinese production line, so hopefully they will also not plague the German factory or other future factories. It's understandable in a new car company. It's only a problem if they don't address the issues. As for now, every single electric vehicle made by anyone is in such demand that they are sold far in advance. It will be several years until demand can be met, if not longer. That's about as good a problem in manufacturing as one is able to have.

Chrysler has no EV models. Chevy has the Bolt. Ford will be offering compelling vehicles but not in any numbers for a good while. As far as other legacy automakers, it looks like Hyundai and Volkswagen group will be eating everyone's lunch.