HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ jacurtis

So after the teardown, my biggest takeaway is that at least 90% of the size of this chunky piece of hardware is because of cooling. The entire system fits on a single PCB board. The rest of the size of the internals are a massive cooling fan (about 30% of the overall console size) and a huge full-height-full-length heatsink.

I am assuming that the radial layout of the SSDs (which are hard soldered btw, so not user replaceable/upgradable like past models) and the RAM, must be for cooling purposes as well.

Overall the PCB is not very condense. Everything is quite spread out on it... again I assume for cooling. It looks like cooling is either a major concern for this device, or that Sony over-engineered its cooling in order to prevent problems.

(Edit: oh in my off the cuff estimation, I am also attributing the empty space in the case to cooling as well, since that is an intentional design choice by Sony and contributes to its airflow capability and cooling capability).

⬐ selykg

My guess is that they're over engineering the cooling because PS4's have terrible fan noise when under heavy load. It's not uncommon for my PS4 Pro to ramp up the fans to the point I get distracted by it over the audio from a game.

So if this over engineering ends up causing a quiet game system then this is a win in my book.

⬐ danudey

They've also talked about how they've designed the system to run at a constant level of heat production/cooling capacity, so the fans never "ramp up"; the system is constantly cooling a roughly constant amount of heat and so they were able to design the console's cooling system around that.

It's a lot easier to optimize a system when you have roughly fixed inputs, and from what the Japanese YouTubers at the hands-on event said, it basically doesn't make enough noise to be distracting unless you're using it as a pillow.

⬐ danbolt

I really like the variable-clock and constant-power setup they have for the console. Being able to adjust power consumption between the CPU and GPU could theoretically allow developers to prioritize one or the other in a game, especially since a lot of games tend to be bottlenecked in one direction or another.

⬐ ornornor

I couldn’t tolerate my ps4 pro noise so I had to repaste it every couple of months (or weeks if I played a lot). I even tried graphite pads (didn’t work at all for me).

The only thing that worked is liquid metal. I suspect it’s because it’s not susceptible to the pump out effect from repeated heating and cooling (and expansion contraction of the cooler). Since the cooler has a copper plate, liquid metal works on it (it melts aluminum so wouldn’t work on the normal PS4)

If you haven’t already, you should try applying liquid metal to the APU die. It’s night and day for me, keeps the console whisper quiet.

⬐ gambiting

This is my PS4 Pro, it's insane how loud it gets: https://youtu.be/chfZmEbUxco

⬐ ornornor

Try the liquid metal along with cleaning it. Made a big difference for me.

⬐ gambiting

Any recommendation for a specific liquid metal paste?

⬐ ornornor

I bought some thermal grizzly on eBay but I suspect they’re all very similar. In any case it seems thermal grizzly is the high profile brand. The tubes are small (1g) bit you really don’t need much. I put probably a pinhead and a half on the die and maybe a pinhead on the cooler. Watch videos on how to apply it, it’s hard to spread in the beginning because it won’t “stick” to the surface but eventually you’re able to “paint” the whole contact area.

Be very careful because it’s electrically conductive. Or use conformal coating/nail polish around the die of you don’t trust yourself.

⬐ gambiting

Thank you!

⬐ Const-me

I would recommend not doing liquid metal. Buy a good paste instead.

Take a look: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thermal-paste-compariso... Difference between good paste and liquid metal is couple degrees. Between good paste and cheap paste much more.

I don't like the idea of liquid metal. Conductive liquid is the last substance I want in my electronic devices. Also, some metal alloys have rather unexpected properties: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mExi4NuLn9Y

⬐ selykg

I have a PS5 pre-ordered and since it's backwards compatible with PS4 games I am hoping I can just put the PS4 Pro in a box and call it good. I may end up moving it to the basement on another tv at some point, but I think a bulk of my gaming will be on the PS5 going forward and we're about a month away from launch.

But good tip for anyone that may be waiting! I took my original PS4 launch day console apart and cleaned it all up and noticed an improvement, but I just used arctic silver.

⬐ ornornor

Mine is clean as a whistle, but the paste seems to conduct heat less rather quickly. I’m not certain why. Liquid metal stays in place and seems to hold better, and conducts heat well over time.

I’m going to be gaming a lot more on mine, I’m not planning to get a new console for another 18–24 months when prices have come down and there are plenty of used games for sale.

⬐ ManBlanket

One of the first things mentioned was the reduced noise due to improved cooling. I think you're echoing the most common criticism of its predecessor.

⬐ selykg

Yea, I have a couple PS4s. A launch day model and a PS4 Pro. Both sound like harrier jets taking off when they're under load. I don't think it's uncommon and something I've heard others mention a well. I'm just looking forward to a quiet running game system. I don't much care how big it is, which is a common complaint, as long as it runs quiet.

My only other really big complaint about the PS4 is how terrible the battery life is on the DS4 controllers. I really hope that's also resolved with PS5 and it's new controller.

⬐ whymauri

And poor cooling was the reason so many PS3s died. I personally had two separate units die due to heating issues.

⬐ selykg

That sucks. I still have my original "Phat" PS3 (though not a launch one, it doesn't do PS2 backwards compatibility) and it works well.

⬐ dougmwne

It would make sense to over-engineer the cooling because people are likely to shove the console into their entertainment system, under some dvd cases, with blocked airflow, clogged with pet dander, in the summer without air conditioning for 14 hour play sessions.

⬐ TillE

The PS4 is really loud even under optimal conditions. Nice and clean and free-flowing air? Still loud. Not a great experience.

⬐ crest

I suspect the shape is at least partly designed to prevent people from stacking things on top of the PS5.

⬐ fomine3

Oh reasonable. Maybe PS3 was designed for same purpose.

⬐ FridgeSeal

Wow I never considered that. That’s quite clever and subtle solution if it is the case.

⬐ mastax

The radial layout of memories is primarily to ease PCB routing. The data/clock lines going to each memory chip need to be equidistant which is much easier when the chips are equidistant. The GDDR6 memories are relatively far from the CPU which may be for cooling.

⬐ djmips

Maybe lead with 'The data/clock lines going to each memory chip need to be equidistant.' ;-)

⬐ londons_explore

Lots of laptop makers manage this with a much smaller PCB.

I'd guess simply not much effort went into making the PCB small and cheap.

I would guess there will be a follow-up revision of the PS5 with all hardware much cheaper. That model will be the mass market one, and the profit maker for Sony.

⬐ hajile

The Xbox Series X heatsink in their teardown looks to be less than half the size. I'm guessing the larger heatsink is to make sure the console survives long enough to make up for the massive losses this generation. It's possible that they need a larger heatsink due to overclocks. Maybe they plan to reuse the same system with an upgraded "pro" chip and wanted to save design and tooling costs. Maybe it's just the normal conservative design choice common in Japanese companies.

Some interesting room to conjecture.

EDIT: 315w for xbox vs 350w for PS4 isn't that big of a difference. In any case, massive graphics cards like the GTX480 or those old AMD dual 4xxx/5xxx cooled more than 350w with a much smaller heatsink (though in a larger case with better airflow -- though not all of that power goes just to the CPU/GPU in the consoles).

⬐ formerly_proven

> EDIT: 315w for xbox vs 350w for PS4 isn't that big of a difference. In any case, massive graphics cards like the GTX480 or those old AMD dual 4xxx/5xxx cooled more than 350w with a much smaller heatsink (though in a larger case with better airflow -- though not all of that power goes just to the CPU/GPU in the consoles).

Those suckers were deafening though.

⬐ lmilcin

You would be surprised to know that most of the size of components is so that energy can be effectively transferred out of them. The entire machine could be the size of your phone (plus connectors) if not for the power it consumes.

⬐ akmarinov

While not user replaceable, you can still stick in a NVME M2 SSD in there, so not a big deal imo, unless the soldered SSD fails.

⬐ djsumdog

I'm wondering how that NVME will work. The big push of the PS5 was that those built-in SSDs push a huge amount of data with their custom storage controller, allowing loading of assets in read time during gameplay.

I'm guessing the NVME will be for storing some game assets it can swap out for less frequently played games; but that data would still need to be transferred back to the onboard SSD when the game is loaded back up?

⬐ dstaley

The lead architect of the PS5 said that NVMe drives will need to be a bit faster than the built-in SSD to make up for the fact that they don't have the optimizations that Sony has for the built-in controller. Essentially only the highest performance PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives will be fast enough for the PS5.

⬐ jacurtis

Oh that is good to know. I wasn't aware that they supported NVME M2 SSDs. That actually is a really thoughtful addition that I wouldn't have expected.

⬐ Narishma

They show it pretty clearly in the video at the start of the teardown.

⬐ ganoushoreilly

I'm pretty sure it's PCIE4 and requires a minimum of 5k - 7K IOPS though so just any NVME won't do.

⬐ wtallis

The performance requirement for third-party SSDs has been stated in terms of read throughput, where the built-in PS5 SSD provides about 5.5GB/s and third party SSDs may need to be a bit faster to provide the same QoS. This is referring to sequential read speeds, generally measured with 128kB or larger IO sizes. When SSD performance is stated in terms of IOPS, that's usually referring to small block sizes (4kB) and random IO rather than sequential.

(Strictly speaking, the access pattern that matters most for games will probably be something like 128kB random reads, so the attained throughput when a game is streaming in chunks of partially-resident textures on the fly is likely to be somewhat lower than purely sequential reads.)

⬐ adamtulinius

It's in the video: https://youtu.be/CaAY-jAjm0w?t=165

⬐ gbil

cooling is a big thing on consoles as the engineers need to account for a life in a not well cooled location (eg. cabinet, tv stand etc. Many consoles in the recent past has thermal issues From that point of view over-engineering is the way to go for sure. I mean they used liquid metal, that is something you don't even see in normal PCs/laptops

EDIT: cooling (fan) noise also is something they seem to have tackled with this design

⬐ reaperducer

they used liquid metal, that is something you don't even see in normal PCs/laptops

FWIW, one of the old 17" MacBook Pros had this. I think it was a G4. Didn't help once you fired up Virtual PC.

⬐ formerly_proven

I think you are confusing liquidmetal (a "super alloy") with liquid metal (a gallium alloy liquid at room temperatures).

⬐ arm

Not the most important correction, but if it had a G4 processor, that would be a PowerBook G4 (or iBook G4). Apple didn’t call their laptops MacBooks until they switched over to Intel.

⬐ reaperducer

You are correct, now that I think about it. I loved that machine. Passed it down to my mother who destroyed it in a week by dumping coffee on it.

"No big whoop. I bet you do it all the time."

⬐ arm

Ouch, that’s unfortunate. The aluminum PowerBooks were beautiful machines too; I can’t deny that I was lusting over them when they first released!

⬐ vmception

I was playing The Last of Us 2 on my version 1 PS4 and it was blowing like crazy inside my cabinet! I opened the door out of concern

In classic Google fashion I found several threads saying the same thing

I want to guess that the end of life graphics pushed the system that hard, but its probably just bad coding somewhere.

⬐ jacurtis

Yep, I too played Last of Us 2 on my v1-launch edition PS4 and I wasn't sure the console was going to survive to the end of the game. I was seriously concerned for the console's health. God of War is another game that put that console to its breaking point. A few times dropping down to what was probably 15-20fps with fans on at max-speed.

It actually is bad enough that I will limit gaming sessions out of concern for the hardware. Which is also probably better for me and my personal life.

⬐ 101008

Were you playing the disc version? I think I have the original PS4 too and I didnt hear anything, but I played the digital version so maybe that's the reason?

⬐ vmception

grandparent poster here: I was playing digital version.

⬐ vmception

At least in a God of War they yell everything, on Last of Us 2 I could barely hear anyone over the fan

Guess I will wait a while before getting PS5, means I also have to wait on Cyberpunk 2077. I heard they’ll CD Projekt will upgrade ps4 version purchasers for free but I dont trust their ability to do that in an uncomplicated way.

⬐ jacurtis

Yes the noise is a big deal. Hopefully with the extra airflow accounted for in the console design and the massive fan, it should mean that it doesn't need to run full bore all the time and can help keep it quiet.

I have an original PS4 (bought it at launch, haven't needed to replace it) and that thing runs fans at full tilt with any modern PS4 game and it gets loud enough to really ruin the experience.

My PC also makes a lot of fan noise, but since I play with a headset at the PC, I don't hear it. But with the PS4, I am playing in the living room with speakers, so it matters a lot more.

⬐ Narishma

You can plug your headset into the PS4 controller.

⬐ formerly_proven

PS3: Died because of insufficient cooling

PS4: Noted for being very loud

PS5: Perhaps with sufficient cooling

⬐ TwoBit

PS3 cooling was 'insufficient' only if you were a dummy and stuffed it into a tight unventilated cabinet.

⬐ JauntyHatAngle

As a consumer device aimed at everybody, you kinda need to account for a large amount of dummies.

⬐ bengale

PS4 does get a bit of crap for being loud, so maybe trying real hard to make sure the PS5 is quiet.

⬐ pvarangot

If you count the air on a non-watercooled gaming PC it comes to around 85% or 90% of volume used for cooling too. If you pack a watercooled PC as tight as possible including the radiators it's maybe 70% of volume dedicated to cooling.

This things run for hours and hours, it's hard to understand if you just use your computer to do cloud things or maybe compile something every once in a while. I'm into photography and I've been learning Ableton and my Mac wasn't doing it anymore, after an hour the fans go super loud and the CPU underclocks and Lightroom or Photoshop become super slow and Ableton starts clicking. I got a Thinkpad T where like 50% of my laptop is now cooling and I can work on it for hours and everything runs fine.

⬐ spike021

I don't mind at all. Even the PS4, IMO, was a massive step up in cooling from the PS3 generation.

During the PS3 generation, I went through five or six consoles and those were a mix of the different sub types (original, slim, etc.) due to overheating issues that would cause hardware failure.

I've had my basically launch PS4 almost since it came out now and no heat issues whatsoever.

If the PS5 evolves even further past that, at the cost of more components/design tradeoffs then I'll take it.

⬐ None

None

⬐ baybal2

> Overall the PCB is not very condense. Everything is quite spread out on it... again I assume for cooling. It looks like cooling is either a major concern for this device, or that Sony over-engineered its cooling in order to prevent problems.

It's heatsink, and PSU would've still pushed the outline past the PCB dimensions, so why not to go for a bigger, lower layer count, easier to route, and cheaper PCB?

⬐ Cthulhu_

Yeah, the main hardware / motherboard looks like it's basically a laptop PCB, it's everything around it that takes up the space.

I'm confident we'll see a revision in a few years that takes off at least a third of the size, probably more. This will mainly depend on whether the chips used become more thermally efficient though.

⬐ fwsgonzo

I hope it's over-engineered. That leaves room for experimentation, takes care of random heat-related issues.

I really like how easy it is to take the fan out. I bet we can get special fans soon after release.

⬐ mmm_grayons

No wonder it runs so cool. That thing is an absolute unit of a box. It does give off that "premium product" feel, though, even to someone who's never owned a console and probably won't buy one. The fact that the stand has a screw holder, rotates closed, and comes with a plug for the whole shows a lot of thought.

⬐ balls187

The PS4Pro was also a single pcb as well (I recently took mine apart to replace the OEM fan with a much much much quieter one).

⬐ reaperducer

Overengineering for cooling is always a good idea for these kinds of devices.

The big gamers will keep it in a nice place with lots of ventilation. But the average box will end up stuffed between two other hot pieces of electronics, or on a carpet, or in a cabinet, or covered in thick layers of dust and cigarette smoke, or all of the above. If you've ever opened up a used console from Goodwill, all the evidence is there.

The people who do these things to their machines are also the first, and the loudest, on social media saying it's an unreliable piece of crap.

⬐ Balgair

> If you've ever opened up a used console from Goodwill, all the evidence is there.

Hey, that's a really good way to get an idea of how your product is actually used! All the wear and tear is there, and for little money to study. Thats a really great idea.

⬐ agumonkey

Sony probably remembers how Microsoft Gaming division almost died from device failure en masse.. no one wants to refund 100K angry customers.

⬐ mariusmg

The also remember the PS3's Yellow Light of Death.

⬐ agumonkey

It's true, the MS case was just more violent because they were trying to get into a new market.

⬐ rangibaby

Between capacitor plague and then RoHS solder that was a fking terrible few years to buy electronics

⬐ danudey

Red ring of death? Just throw it* in the oven!

* The motherboard, not the whole console.

⬐ jdc0589

I revived a couple xboxs found in college trash piles this way back in ~2009.

⬐ Glant

Stick a couple pennies on it!

⬐ dont__panic

You could also wrap the whole thing in a towel and run it for 2-3 hours (even on red-ringed mode) and the heat would actually reflow the solder in some cases. Source? My Xbox 360 experienced a RRoD that I resolved as a teenager with this "towel trick", and it still runs to this day.

⬐ retSava

I guess this refers to the "Red Ring of Death"? IIRC, heating problems -> thermal shutdown?

⬐ mikeyouse

Yep. Bought an Xbox 360 with warranty from GameStop and ended up cycling through ~10 of them before I gave up and quit gaming.

⬐ Polylactic_acid

I went through 3 before getting one that seems to have fixed the issue.

⬐ justin66

How good are GameStop about replacing stuff under their product replacement plan?

⬐ mikeyouse

This was probably 10 years ago - but they were amazing, you could tell whoever was behind the counter didn't care at all - they just plugged it in to verify the RROD and then swapped it out. No idea if that's the case still.

⬐ eatonphil

Is this standard practice to do in gaming consoles? That the manufacturer themselves does this teardown? I have never seen this sort of first party teardown for any console or laptop manufacturer. It's great to see that degree of confidence and transparency.

⬐ soulofmischief

I think Sony likes making beautifully engineered internal designs that they want to show off.

⬐ 52-6F-62

That was my first impression. It seems pretty brilliant to me—a design that looks so simple [and still works] cannot have been simple to engineer. And all said, it's just a video game box so I'm not sure I grasp the controversy.

⬐ agumonkey

And maybe a subconscious glitch on how Sony really feels about the external design. Weakest in the lineup history IMO. And I'm keeping the discussion polite :)

⬐ rowanG077

I think it looks by far the best. It's not random brick #4.

⬐ agumonkey

it's fugly.

I understand what you say but even bricks have more taste than this.

⬐ mortenjorck

I have to admit, I gained a lot of respect for the console's industrial design team after seeing this teardown.

Really hoping they put all that into a case that actually looks like it belongs in a grown adult's living room for the next revision.

⬐ tpmx

I felt the same - the interior looks so much sexier than the exterior.

The exterior case looks like it was designed by some random small ultra-low-cost Chinese company.

⬐ Cthulhu_

They did one for the PS4: https://www.wired.com/2013/11/playstation4-teardown-video/ (couldn't find a YT link), and one for the PS4 Pro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euBlNq5kda0

⬐ Macha

Sony has historically been receptive to certain classes of console modding. You could install hard drives and modems to the ps2, there was an official Linux kit for the PS2, replacing the hard drive with an SSD was common for PS3 and PS4, PS3 shipped with Linux support until it was used as a launching ground for breaking the system's DRM.

⬐ jsheard

Wasn't the Linux support mostly there as a way to dodge import tarrifs by making the systems technically computers instead of purely entertainment products?

⬐ esperent

And PS5... has detachable sides.

⬐ xdavidliu

Sides? Sides? $499 worth of sides? What are these sides? They cure cancer?

⬐ slipheen

I think it also has an unused NVMe SSD Slot, which would be the equivalent of replacing the HDD in previous versions.

⬐ steveklabnik

Yeah, and like, they even explain how themselves in some cases https://www.playstation.com/en-gb/get-help/help-library/syst...

⬐ moviuro

> I have never seen this sort of first party teardown for any console or laptop manufacturer

Dell has them at least for their "pro" lineup (e.g. [0]), same for Lenovo [1] or HP [2]. Said "pro" lineup is meant to be serviceable.

It is however the first time that I see a first-party console tear-down.

[0] https://downloads.dell.com/manuals/all-products/esuprt_lapto...

[1] https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t470s_ug_en.p... page 109 onwards

[2] http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04887250

⬐ cmckn

I think they’re just proud of this design; and it definitely got me excited for my pre-order. The drawer to store the vertical stand’s screw...that’s good stuff.

⬐ nemof

xbox series x did a teardown 6 months ago as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLeYN-t9nw

⬐ tpmx

Via a third-party though.

⬐ polytely

I think it's because parties like Digital Foundry will do a tear down anyway so why not do it yourself so you can control the messaging.

⬐ pindab0ter

I don’t think it’s Digital Foundry they’re scared of, but your point still stands.

⬐ hrktb

The most interesting part to me with the manufactor doing it themself, is the manipulation and maintenance advices. Bonus point being the official name of each parts.

It sure is way more interesting than going through the handbook.

⬐ mhh__

It's the same as a restaurant talking about their ingredients - will they have cut corners, of course, but if there's some good beef in the pie it makes sense to show it off.

⬐ cosarara

It is not, but sony did it with the ps4 as well.

⬐ ginko

I guess there's inevitably going to be a tear-down video so might as well do it yourself to avoid any random embarrassment.

⬐ ilkkao

iFixit people must be little disappointed now

⬐ Polylactic_acid

They still have plenty of room to talk about guides for fixing things and the repairability score

⬐ kanwisher

First generation to do this. Thew new Xbox also had a few you tubers to come to their office and do a teardown in video before console launches

⬐ tobz1000

Sony also did an official teardown of the PlayStation 4 Pro at launch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euBlNq5kda0

⬐ capableweb

I watched both videos now, and only in the PlayStation 4 you linked does he mention tamper proof stickers/markers that gets broken. Will there not be any for the PS5 and is Sony allowing people to pick it apart?

⬐ fomine3

Maybe they can't talk about void seal now because void seal is now void in US. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/11/601582169...

⬐ kevingadd

There's an anti-tamper sticker in the PS5, you can see them remove it in the teardown.

⬐ finnthehuman

There are a number of youtube channels that would (probably still will) tear down the PS5 as soon as they get one.

This way Sony gets to control the messaging. The person doing the work has disassembled a ps5 dozens of times, doesn't question any design decisions, or share any information that could be learned from the PCB that Sony doesn't want to publicize.

⬐ neuronic

None of that even remotely matters. As soon as the Internet gets their hand on a physical PS5 and embargoes are gone you will see teardowns and 'controlled Sony messaging' won't help anyone.

⬐ colinmhayes

But people might not watch the new teardowns if they've already seen this one.

⬐ syoc

Being first matters. I think a significant amount of people are only interested enough to watch one PS5 teardown.

⬐ geerlingguy

I'm one of those people; I enjoy seeing teardowns of most new products, to see the tradeoffs inside.

I'm guessing Sony wants to get ahead of iFixit's snarky (but entertaining) teardowns, and the like.

Being first matters a lot for unboxings, teardowns, etc. (assuming you can also get a wide audience in that first post).

⬐ Polylactic_acid

This is the idea behind Intels review bans. Get the first videos of their chips without any AMD comparisons which means for the entire life of the chip those first reviews will still be the top of the search results.

⬐ ManBlanket

No kidding. This is going to be the first search result for, "PS5 teardown" after the release of the console. There's a lot of value in that when you think about what people would look for when they're considering buying a major purchase. Especially since I imagine the alternative as something to the effect of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VarmzG1Y-og

⬐ surround

Funny you mention it, because if you search “PS5 teardown” on YouTube right now, the original video is the 13th (!) result.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201007230301if_/https://www.yo...

⬐ varispeed

It is interesting that companies adopt this totalitarian thinking as in Lenin's quote: "The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves." It looks like things are going towards total control, software and hardware lockdowns, massive data collection and making sure devices cannot be repaired independently only discarded.

⬐ SZJX

That's a load of loaded words. PS3, PS4 and PS5 all allow custom external storage which is already tons better than companies like Microsoft not to mention Apple. Of course a console has to be controlled from head to toe by the manufacturer. That's the whole point of it. Otherwise you can always build a custom PC.

⬐ dvfjsdhgfv

Hasn't it always been like that with console manufacturers?

⬐ mastax

Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around time limits? Do they do game rentals on PlayStation?

Liquid metal is surprising. I think the only other consumer product that uses it is some Asus gaming laptops. They made a video [0] talking about the difficulty of application in a production environment.

That cooler is impressive. So many heatpipes, complex geometries, lots of copper. Squirrel-cage (blower) fans are usually a bad sign but that thing is so huge it probably doesn't have to spin very fast. That was pretty much the only way they could fit a big quiet-er fan in a traditional console rectangle. Microsoft took the other approach of changing the case to fit a traditional 135mm PC fan.

The dust catchers are a nice attention to detail. Nice to be able to clean the thing without voiding the warranty (in some countries). Wonder how well they work, there's no mesh or anything so I suppose they just designed the airflow to slow down and leave dust behind?

I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbCw1FD22Bo

⬐ moviuro

> I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499.

Isn't that how the economics of consoles actually are?

The user has to pay for network connectivity (PSN or Gold), publishers have to get their games approved (which was introduced by Nintendo [0]), and then there's a single market for the console (included game store with cut or through authorized discs only).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System (not as precise a source as I would like) (This was needed to avoid "low-quality" games from ever reaching the consumer, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(vi...

⬐ OskarS

Most importantly, Sony takes a cut on every game sold for the system.

⬐ Const-me

This. And another reason: these consoles gonna stay current for a few years, component prices decline with technical progress, console retail price more or less stays.

⬐ chungus_khan

For the minimal cost of including one, a backup battery is nice enough just to prevent the system time from being reset if the power goes out, same as any other system.

⬐ tpmx

It could get the current time via NTP on startup. It complicates the startup sequence though.

Perhaps it's primarily for validating signatures from discs in an offline scenario.

⬐ coder543

No. A coin cell wouldn't be used for anything more complicated than keeping a simple real time clock chip powered. Is it possible? Sure, with a level of engineering effort that would far outweigh any possible benefit.

If they had something fancy they wanted to do on battery power, they would stick in a Li-ion battery, which they didn't.

⬐ tpmx

I guess I wasn't super clear. Also, obviously the system is powered on when any disc reading is happening.

I was thinking about the issue with key expiration dates and validation. It's not a good user experience to force users to enter the current date every time they boot their offline system.

⬐ coder543

Ah, I agree with that entirely.

⬐ netsharc

Didn't Macs have trouble booting if the clock is wrong? IIRC because from the system's point of view some cryptographic certificate's validity is in the future...

⬐ tpmx

Yeah, that's the problem you want to make sure users don't face every time they power on their device.

Guessing: Perhaps, after Fukushima, Japan, like Germany has become very conscious about allowing people to completely shut off their devices when they are not using them?

I do remember German computer mags being very concerned with standby/operating power usage already like 15-20 years ago for things like home routers.

⬐ chungus_khan

Button cell clock batteries have been a thing in most computers since at least the 1980s (including in every previous Playstation console that has an internal clock, PS2 and up), so it's not that unusual to see one in the PS5, and I don't think influenced by anything recent.

⬐ tpmx

Not very relevant, but, yes what write is indeed true.

⬐ perryizgr8

Every single PC has had a button cell for the RTC. This is nothing as new as Fukushima.

⬐ chungus_khan

Only if the system is online. While that might be the case for most users, Sony designs their hardware with the consideration that it can be used offline. Considering the unit cost of a PS5, and the fact that backup batteries are already the norm, including one isn't imposing at all and there is very little reason to stop.

Inventing software solutions to already solved problems (and ones that don't pass all use-cases) isn't really a path worth going down unless the savings are actually significant.

⬐ bhj

> I wouldn't be surprised if they're selling these at a loss at $499.

Could one build an equivalent PC (including noise levels, 8 cores, etc.) for even $1000? I'm on the fence; bonus points for a build link. I guess we'll need to see what AMD's midrange next-gen (6000 series) GPUs will cost?

⬐ soylentcola

I'd imagine it's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison when you're dealing with

a) a machine that is typically sold at a loss and made up for with licensing/subscriptions

and b) a general purpose computer made of off-the-shelf parts versus a more specialized computer made from high volumes of specific components that provide a single standard to optimize all software.

⬐ CydeWeys

I guess the facile, if unsatisfying, answer is: yes, you could assemble a similarly specced, similarly priced computer, so long as you're doing it at the same volume (i.e. buying millions of copies of each component like Sony is). Your price might be a little bit higher because Sony might be taking a loss on the upfront price with the expectation of future licensing gains, but Sony definitely isn't taking a huge loss to do so.

⬐ bhj

> yes, you could assemble a similarly specced, similarly priced computer, so long as you're doing it at the same volume

I'm willing to pay twice as much for a single PC with similar gaming performance, but I'm not sure it can be done (no concrete suggestions, just downvotes...) I've been building PCs since before plug 'n play existed, and would love to be proven wrong.

⬐ CydeWeys

Have you seen /r/buildapc? There's lots of good suggested builds on there, and US$1k is a very common budget.

I suspect it will be possible with something like the RTX 3060 (whenever that comes out). That'll be about the right price for a GPU in a $1k PC build and it should outperform the PS5.

⬐ bhj

I have, thanks. Of course, a $1K PC will outperform any of these consoles given enough time :)

GPU is important for sure, but I think storage performance is as important, since load times and stuttering take me out of the game in a way slightly worse graphics wouldn't (purely my opinion). From what I can tell, equivalent I/O for the price is still a ways off on the PC side. One also has to be careful to factor in time spent purchasing and building; I do not value my time at $0.

Trying to look at this all objectively... appreciate the input so far!

⬐ read_if_gay_

If you are going to factor in your time spent researching and building then you should also factor in a PC’s superior versatility and upgradeability, catalog, cheaper games in general and no fees for online services. (That alone ends up being many hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of a console, if you need it.)

In the long run a PC is usually going to cost you less than a console even if it costs much more up front.

⬐ CydeWeys

There's a reason I don't play any online multiplayer games on consoles. I can't stomach paying that much just to use the Internet when multiplayer is free on PC.

⬐ CydeWeys

> Of course, a $1K PC will outperform any of these consoles given enough time

The RTX 3060 is right around the corner (like a couple of months). The PS5 isn't quite available yet either. So this is a valid comparison for systems you could have in hand by end of this year, but couldn't yet have in hand right now.

> but I think storage performance is as important, since load times and stuttering take me out of the game in a way slightly worse graphics wouldn't (purely my opinion). From what I can tell, equivalent I/O for the price is still a ways off on the PC side.

I think you're over-estimating the impact of storage speed on the gaming use case here. You can easily fit a 1 TB 3 Gbps NVMe SSD into a $1k PC budget, and you aren't going to notice the delta between that and the 5.5 claimed Gbps on the PS5 for gaming. Neither of these SSDs is gonna be a bottleneck for any kind of stuttering in games. An underpowered CPU/GPU/slow memory would be much more likely culprits once you've got the NVMe SSD part nailed down.

> One also has to be careful to factor in time spent purchasing and building; I do not value my time at $0.

Well then you should only be buying pre-builts if you don't derive enjoyment from assembling computers and thus need to pay yourself a wage to do so. Personally I love the whole process of researching and assembling computers; it's a hobby (an infrequently practiced one though, by the nature of it).

⬐ bhj

> Neither of these SSDs is gonna be a bottleneck for any kind of stuttering in games.

This is probably true for most current games, but is very much up for debate for future games[0]. If the storage speed really made no difference I doubt Sony would have bothered with the additional cost.

> Well then you should only be buying pre-builts if you don't derive enjoyment from assembling computers and thus need to pay yourself a wage to do so.

It's not mutually exclusive; I both enjoy building PCs and have limited time, thus the time has value that should be factored into the equation. The goal is to game, not build a PC.

[0]: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/ps5-ssd-is-so-fast-developers...

⬐ CydeWeys

Or it might not be so relevant to future games either: https://gamingbolt.com/why-ps5s-ssd-speed-might-not-have-as-...

I think Sony may have chosen these specs partially so they could get away with having less RAM. Also, some of this speed isn't that the SSD components are necessarily that much faster, but rather that they're soldered directly onto the main board and located closely to the components that will use them. Modular, detachable storage located farther from the CPU is just gonna be slower, period.

So I'm not so optimistic that this alone will prove to be a significant differentiator. And it could easily be the case that by the time it does, PC components have pulled ahead again. It takes several years before developers have gotten really good at using a given console to its full potential.

⬐ wtallis

> Also, some of this speed isn't that the SSD components are necessarily that much faster, but rather that they're soldered directly onto the main board and located closely to the components that will use them. Modular, detachable storage located farther from the CPU is just gonna be slower, period.

Completely wrong. They're using PCIe 4.0 for the onboard SSD, and PCIe 4.0 for the aftermarket SSD slot. There's no performance penalty for going with removable storage here. We're not talking about a high-speed DRAM interface where shorter traces without the insertion loss of a connector really does help reach higher clock speeds (other things being equal).

⬐ bhj

I think the speed advantage is more due to the I/O controller that Sony's made a big deal of, where data can get to RAM or GPU without having to interrupt the CPU. Those interrupts can cause a domino effect with Windows doing god-knows what else in the background, leading to a stutter.

You're right though, PCs will get brute-force faster, while devs will squeeze more out of consoles. I just find it hard to make the case for building something right now given the apparent bang-for-the-buck of these consoles. That said, I do kinda need a new Plex server... :)

⬐ FridgeSeal

> You can easily fit a 1 TB 3 Gbps NVMe SSD into a $1k PC budget, and you aren't going to notice the delta between that and the 5.5 claimed Gbps

Bearing in mind here, that it’s memory+storage architecture has a theoretical top of 22 Gb/ps, and they demonstrated recently, when assets are compressed using the “Octo” (naming?) lib, they were getting throughput of 12-18 Gb/ps. That’s written by the storage controller directly into memory the GPU can access (without the CPU being involved) so the normal latency to load data into a GPU is effectively gone.

That speed is significantly above what drives can do on a normal consumer computer (to the best of my knowledge)

⬐ Gracana

I stumbled a bit over those "gigabits per picosecond" units.

⬐ FridgeSeal

Hahahaha let me fix that

Edit: nevermind, it’s too late, my poorly formatted units are staying.

⬐ bhj

All true but not necessarily relevant. Hardware is hardware, and I'm trying to compare bang-for-the-buck for equivalent hardware. PS5 and PCs share instruction set, memory interface, GPU type, storage interface (although the PS5 has some unique I/O handling to reduce CPU involvement in moving data around), etc.

Sounds like the answer is "no".

(and if not, please provide an example build instead of simply downvoting. I'd love to build a dedicated gaming PC, but it has to be worth it)

⬐ soylentcola

I didn't downvote (I rarely do for anything that isn't shit-talking) but if your only goal is to play video games at a reasonably high level of quality, then yes, I think a games console is always going to be less expensive.

I mainly stopped buying consoles because I already need a fairly powerful computer for a lot of other productive and entertainment uses, so for me, the price difference between the computer I "need" and the computer that also plays games really well is mostly the price difference between a decent GPU and a nicer GPU.

If you already have all the computer you need for other tasks and it's cheaper to buy an Xbox or Playstation than it is to make the computer more capable of playing games, then it makes more sense to buy a game console.

⬐ jsheard

> Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around time limits? Do they do game rentals on PlayStation?

Yeah it's for DRM enforcement, they did something similar on the PS4. If you pull the battery and reset the RTC the system notices and revokes all your temporary licenses.

⬐ polytely

>Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for? Making it a bit harder to reset the clock and disconnect internet to work around time limits? Do they do game rentals on PlayStation?

It might be to keep the SSD storage alive if the unit is disconnected from power, correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think SSD's can lose data when they lose power for a long period.

⬐ outworlder

> correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think SSD's can lose data when they lose power for a long period.

Consider yourself corrected :) SSDs will not lose data if left unpowered.

⬐ polytely

I hereby stand corrected!

⬐ pengaru

That's not exactly true, but we're talking spans on the order of years without power to start losing data.

⬐ maven29

Would a coin cell be sufficient to deal with the uncommitted writes still in the SSD's DRAM buffer?

⬐ pengaru

In his The Amp Hour interview, the late Chuck Peddle described developing new DRAM-based SSDs where they were using super capacitors to power this flushing operation.

But I'd assume the coin cell in question here is a conventional RTC battery.

⬐ gruez

> Has a coin-cell backup battery which is interesting. I wonder what that's for?

Isn’t a cmos battery pretty standard on PCs?

⬐ CydeWeys

Yeah, every computer/console/handheld that I'm aware of has a coin cell battery, even if for nothing other than time-keeping. This isn't remotely surprising. Mobile phones are just about the only computer-like thing encountered in your daily life I can think of that don't have a coin-cell battery in them (so they will lose time if their main battery fully discharges and they're off-network).

⬐ seanalltogether

I'm really glad to see that these new consoles will continue to have ethernet ports. My whole tv cabinet is full of devices that need networking and its nice to keep as many devices as possible on ethernet and off the wifi network.

⬐ macspoofing

>I'm really glad to see that these new consoles will continue to have ethernet ports

I expect mainline consoles will have a hardwire option (ethernet or otherwise) forever. There are game genres (like fighting games) that are latency sensitive and it would kill the competitive scene for that console if Wifi was the only option available.

⬐ major505

Wifi is very pratical, but Ethernet > wifi. Wharever I can, I se ethernet.

⬐ fl0wenol

For me, it's less about the latency, and more about reducing congestion for other devices that don't have other options (i.e. mobile devices). My laptop docking station is cabled too for this reason.

⬐ Insanity

I think for gaming oriented devices this trend will continue for some time. _maybe_ with exception of some nintendo consoles which are more casual.

That being said.. I am gaming on wifi regularly and have no in-game issues related to it (low ping, stable connection, same room as the router, 5Ghz band only used by the machine on which I game + work machine, but those don't happen at the same time).

⬐ Fej

For games that require low latency, such as twitch shooters and (traditional) fighting games, a wired connection is indispensable. I don't think the "hardcore" platforms will ever remove it.

Regarding Nintendo, while they've never shipped a console with an Ethernet port built-in, they have supported it since the GameCube (Broadband Adapter); the Wii, Wii U, and Switch all accept standard USB Ethernet dongles. Use of these adapters is somewhat widespread on the Switch, particularly for Mario Maker and Smash (although this is more due to Nintendo's incompetency with netcode than inherent latency in Wi-Fi).

⬐ asdff

It's not for the latency, its to maximize your bandwith for downloads and updates which are in the 100s of gbs these days.

⬐ Fej

It's absolutely for the latency, it's almost a faux pas to play the games I mentioned online at a high level without an Ethernet adapter (since there's a decent chance you'll get a match with others who are). Additionally, the Switch is the sole major gaming platform which has avoided the bloat endemic everywhere else; there are no games on the platform anywhere even close to triple-digit GBs in size, or even half that.

⬐ Cthulhu_

For playing games, wifi shouldn't be a problem, you don't need that much bandwidth for just the comms between players.

For downloading games though, heck. 25GB is like a minimum now, and some go north of 100GB.

⬐ nemothekid

WiFi tends to be a problem for games that require very low latency like fighting games

https://youtu.be/yanKfSc1_Sc

⬐ Insanity

I was going to mention that actually! Most of my FG days were with ethernet :)

⬐ Narishma

It's latency that tends to be the problem with wireless connections, not bandwidth.

⬐ odessacubbage

for playing any competitive game, wifi is a huge problem

⬐ dragonwriter

Well, clearly false for competitive but turn-based games.

Maybe so for competitive, realtime games; certainly wired will generally be lower latency, all other things being equal.

⬐ otabdeveloper4

In 2020 bandwidth is never a problem. Intermittent or noisy connections definitely are, though.

If you live somewhere with a crowded Wi-Fi spectrum you'll have connectivity issues daily.

⬐ FridgeSeal

> In 2020 bandwidth is never a problem.

Unless you live in a rural area.

Or literally anywhere in Australia.

> If you live somewhere with a crowded Wi-Fi spectrum you'll have connectivity issues daily.

Like everyone who lives in a city does.

⬐ gruez

>In 2020 bandwidth is never a problem

...unless you live in a rural area. I’d hate to download a 50GB day 1 patch on 5mb/s DSL

⬐ untog

I think OP meant internal network bandwidth. Ethernet isn't going to help you if you have a 5mb/s DSL line.

⬐ izacus

You'll probably have way better experience playing games on a rural 5Mbit DSL than on a 300Mbit Fiber connected via crowded city wifi.

Games don't need bandwidth when playing multiplayer, they need stable jitter and no packet loss.

⬐ orloffm

Nintendo heavily promotes their USB-to-LAN adapter in videos mentioning on-line gameplay.

⬐ Aissen

Even the Nintendo Switch supports (some) USB Ethernet adapters.

⬐ ajay-d

This thing does have wifi 6. Hopefully that helps some.

⬐ jerf

I think you'll see it on anything that someone wants to do "cloud gaming" on, by which I mean, the full "run the GPU in the cloud and stream the video back" thing.

I've used Steam Link on a computer in my living room running Wifi to the internal router that runs a wire to the receiving TV. My wifi is one of those dedicated mesh router things that is as solid as you can buy. And it mostly works... but still has occasional jank and even more occasional bad days where it never stops working but noticeably drops resolution a lot.

It's just too easy for an otherwise functional home Wiki connection on its own to eat all the latency budget or more for that style of gaming. And the companies really want you locked into more subscriptions, not owning your games, and streaming everything if at all possible, so I'm sure they'll continue building the hardware for it. Ethernet is cheap; not so cheap you can't save a lot of money over several million consoles, but so cheap that it's a no-brainer for this purpose; retaining one marginal customer on the cloud service that works on ethernet but not on their wifi pays for hundreds of ethernet ports, if not thousands.

⬐ fomine3

Now PS5 supports 802.11ax that supports OFDMA. It would be significant difference for multiple device heavy usage if it works correctly.

⬐ PeanutNore

I couldn't handle Steam Link on WiFi. For anything beyond Stardew Valley and Rimworld the sudden quality drops and latency were too jarring. After setting up an additional gigabit switch for the bedroom and running some Cat5e it works well enough for most FPSs.

⬐ typon

What a beautifully shot video. Something about seeing the internals opened up and laid out rekindles my inner child that got interested in computers for this exact reason

⬐ netsharc

They need to give it to James May afterwards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRkilbNprY&list=PLc_cO9OfR3...

⬐ lanius

>Something about seeing the internals opened up and laid out

There's a subreddit for that: https://www.reddit.com/r/knolling/

⬐ rado

The PS4 Pro noise is one of the most epic fails of recent times. They never acknowledged it, let alone fix it. Actually, Sony support wrote me it's noisy because it's powerful. Now 2/3 of the PS5 is cooling.

⬐ balls187

It was really really bad.

So bad I had considered building a sound dampining enclosure for it.

Instead I bought an aftermarket fan (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075R3W8V7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...) and using Ifixit, replaced it.

Now it's much quieter.

⬐ sangnoir

> Actually, Sony support wrote me it's noisy because it's powerful.

That is correct - all that power has to be dissipated somehow.

When it comes to cooling considerations, the limitations are: fast, quiet, compact - pick two.

⬐ TMWNN

>When it comes to cooling considerations, the limitations are: fast, quiet, compact - pick two.

Xbox Series X may have beaten this dilemma. The recent talk about it running "hot" misses the point; the heat has to go somewhere. A MacBook running hot (and boy, does it) matters to the person whose lap it is on, but not so much for a console sitting at the other end of the room, as long as you leave enough room for air flow.

The fact that the Xbox Series X previews universally report that the console runs quietly is promising. (Yes, they all tested with X1/360/original Xbox games, as opposed to Xbox Series native games. But they are all getting upscaling and HDR added, so the console still has to do work.) This may change in seven years when the new GTA8 pushes it to the limit just before the next Xbox comes out.

⬐ fomine3

No one can't "beat" the dilemma. We can do is designing well and deciding a good compromise point.

> but not so much for a console sitting at the other end of the room, as long as you leave enough room for air flow.

Manufacturer won't expect all gamers put the console on large living room. Possibly the console is put on asian small one room.

To extend your thought, cloud gaming would be the answer. Heat, noise, and size is on datacenter.

⬐ TMWNN

>To extend your thought, cloud gaming would be the answer. Heat, noise, and size is on datacenter.

Microsoft is going all in on Game Pass as the future. I'd be surprised if the company doesn't do some combination of the following:

* Xcloud client for Xbox One (maybe even 360) * Xcloud client for PC/Mac * Official Xcloud client for Android TV/Amazon Fire * Ultra-cheap Xcloud-only Xbox Series GP

⬐ young_unixer

My PS3's Blu-ray reader was constantly stopping and accelerating when playing certain games (Red Dead Redemption).

I don't know if my unit was slightly faulty or it was standard behavior. Why not just let the disc run at full speed instead of constantly changing its speed and annoying the user with those sounds?

I don't care about fan noise, because it's constant, but noise coming from a disc reader constantly stopping and accelerating is annoying.

⬐ kuschku

Because the game repeatedly seeks data from the outside of the disk, and the inside of the disk. Reading the innermost ring takes a mcuh slower speed than the outermost ring, so these speed changes are what you're hearing.

⬐ young_unixer

That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

⬐ Sophistifunk

My regular PS4 is bad enough, I can't imagine it being any louder. I barely use it on account of the jet taking off combined with the terribly weak bluetooth connection for the controllers constantly missing button presses if I accidentally get an entire knee between the console and controller..

⬐ Cthulhu_

I dunno, it wasn't too bad to begin with, but it got worse as games became more demanding (and I presume the cooling started to fill with dust).

⬐ birracerveza

I played Dreams and it was so loud I got legit scared the thing was going to blow up. No joke. It was THAT loud. Absolutely unbelievable.

⬐ trymas

I've heard bad things about it, though if you bought PS4 Pro with red dead redemption 2 bundle [0][1], the noise is non issue. Cooling noise is not noticeable probably 95% of the time. I assume the system runs hotter, though..

[0] and I assume later models after that bundle came out, are quieter too;

[1] too lazy to find out what is the exact model designation number;

⬐ jamesponddotco

As someone with a PS4 Pro that is currently going through Red Dead Redemption 2, I disagree. I have to put on headphones to be able to hear anything in game because the fans are so god damn loud.

Things got better after opening it up, cleaning, and replacing the thermal goo, but it is still intolerable.

⬐ WrtCdEvrydy

Business Opportunity: Open Case (Test Bench) for PS4.

⬐ coder543

The person you're replying to is saying there was an improved model of PS4 Pro released with the Red Dead Redemption bundle.

If you disagree, then refute that... but an anecdote about how playing RDR2 causes the console to get hot isn't a response to anything they said. You could have a very early PS4 Pro without the improved cooling system.

(To be clear, I don't know whether the PS4 Pro's cooling system was revised in a later edition, I'm just explaining why your response doesn't fit with the comment you're replying to.)

⬐ jamesponddotco

The cooling system was revised in later editions, yes, but the model that the person I replied to mentioned is the CUH-7215B, the same one I have.

The CUH-7215B was included in a bundle with Red Dead Redemption 2 and in a bundle with Kingdom Hearts III, the one I got — there are probably other bundles with this model too.

I am not trying to shit on Sony, I have been buying Playstations since the first one, it is just a known fact that the PS4 suffers from noise issues, and I added my personal experience to the mix. Not sure why I got down voted for that.

EDIT: Just to add to what I said, I am not trying to be a dick or offend anyone. If my comment was wrong or offended anyone, just let me know what I did wrong and I will keep it in mind for the next time.

⬐ sumedh

I think you did not add the right context in your original post which is why you got that harsh response.

⬐ jamesponddotco

Yeah, after a day passed and my head cleared — and cooled, 38 °C yesterday —, I can see how my comment can be seen as low-effort at best. Lesson learned.

Thank you for the polite answer, by the way.

⬐ arprocter

My 'improved' Pro from the Red Dead bundle still gets loud, but it seems to depend on the game

NMS is good at making it run at full volume

⬐ lsiunsuex

What confuses me - and this gets worse as the years pass - don't most people hang their tvs now a days?

Why aren't consoles designed to be hung on the wall behind the tv as well?

Same can be said for Apple TV. Most of my tvs, all they have is an Apple TV - it's always a process of zip-tieing it to the back of the tv or tv mount or buy a mount for it on Amazon.

We used to be able to hang modems on the wall also. Looking at my Xfinity router, no way it can be hung on a wall, so it's on random shelf / window sill out of the way.

[edit] Why the down votes? Perfectly legit question isn't it? Those of us that live in apartments and sq ft is limited, why wouldn't you hang a tv on the wall and it's accessories behind it?

⬐ genkobar

Hanging the TV on the wall is pretty common where I live, but most wall mounts don't leave any space behind the TV for a device such as a gaming console.

My TV is wall-mounted, but my consoles are either on a shelf above or a cabinet below it.

⬐ LeonM

I think it's because most consoles up till now had an optical media drive, so hanging it flat against a wall, or behind the TV would make insertion of the disk difficult.

⬐ djmips

3:55 blu ray drive.

⬐ ihuman

They're also selling a cheaper version with one

⬐ agd

I don’t know anyone who hangs their tv on the wall, so it’s possible it’s not as common as you think.

⬐ kiwijamo

I would say it's around 50/50 here in New Zealand.

⬐ lsiunsuex

Maybe it's a culture / location (country) thing?

Unless we're talking a tv > 60 inches, I don't recall anyone I know or talk to not hanging their tv.

⬐ Keats

Maybe. I don't think I've ever seen a hanged TV in Europe or Japan.

⬐ alexgmcm

In Europe, especially in the cities it is much more common to rent and generally you aren't allowed to drill into the walls etc.

As the gamer demographic skews younger and the homeowner demographic is skewing increasingly older - I can see why it isn't a major priority.

⬐ timc3

All my TVs are on the wall, which in some cases has taken a lot of effort ( pipes in the brick wall, replastering, painting etc.. ). And I can just about fit a chromecast, but for newer slim TVs like my OLED LG I would not be able to fit an AppleTV.

Besides I want everything plugged into a receiver, not the TV. So I dont see wall mounting devices makes sense for higher-end setups.

⬐ emodendroket

Engineering is a question of conflicting design goals and it seems obvious they've privileged performance over size.

⬐ hundchenkatze

Not sure why you're getting down voted :(

I mount my TVs, but I think it could be a bit of the chicken/egg problem. TV mounts generally aren't designed to fit anything behind them, and many devices aren't designed to be mounted. I suspect this leads to many people saying "why bother with mounting if I'm going to need a cabinet to sit all my devices on, I'll just sit my TV on there too."

⬐ djmips

I am not sure why you are getting down voted either. Maybe people are thinking of this -> Safe for work picture of PC held from ceiling by strings. https://i.imgur.com/mRrKbnn.jpg

I think your idea is valid BTW.

⬐ Jeremy1026

It's 2% computer, 30% power supply, 68% cooling.

⬐ ginko

Looks like 25% of the volume are unnecessary design elements like those weird fins.

⬐ wtracy

I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentionally done to force users to leave enough space around the console for airflow.

⬐ nsriv

Agreed. Not trying to start a flame war, but it really madee appreciate the packaging of the Series X more.

⬐ vcanales

Apple gets shit for building shit to be thin over having good cooling; Sony gets shit for building a chunky, properly cooled device. I think Sony wins here.

⬐ gizmo385

Are you referring to the metal fins on the heat sink? Those are explicitly for cooling and you'll see them on pretty much any air-cooled GPU or CPU system. If you think those are excessive, you should see the cooler on the new Nvidia GPUs. They're like 80% cooler.

⬐ ginko

No, I'm talking about the large white "wings" of the front plates.

⬐ masklinn

Aren't they the air intake and exhaust? Those around the fan correspond to the "air vent" earlier in the video, and those at the back seem to be the only possible exhaust.

⬐ egman_ekki

yeah, and we're 70% water...

⬐ 013a

Few things I noticed:

- That stand is a crazy piece of unnecessary engineering just to make the customer's life a wee little bit easier. Very cool.

- Removable side-panels. This was strongly theorized from previous leaks, but I think this is the first time we've gotten an official video showing them. The aftermarket for these will be huge, allowing really well integrated customization. It also makes Sony's "limited edition consoles" they release for big games far cheaper to build, and maybe even accessible to people who don't want to replace their whole console (if Sony releases the plates as a separate/pre-order/etc purchase).

- The NVME and fan are both easily accessible without voiding warranty. They've advertised that NVME slot before; PCIE4 is required, and it has to match or exceed the internal SSD's raw read performance in order to be supported, which is 5.5Gbps. Nearly every current-gen NVME SSD is too slow, which may lead to some confusion, but I also expect Sony will have some PS5 branded SSDs right in the Best Buy gaming accessories isle so hopefully too many people don't get burned by this. Definitely prefer it to Microsoft's proprietary strategy.

- Single cooling fan. There's a ton of empty space inside the console, so it doesn't seem impossible that they could have found room for a second fan, but they must feel confident about this one (massive) fan's ability to cool that (massive) heatsink. Judging by the design though, it looks like it has a lot of surface area to collect dust. This (and bad thermal compound) was a huge reason why the PS4P had issues with jet turbine fan noise for some people. Its unprecedented accessibility (no warranty void) seems to signal that they want people to clean it out; very good.

- Liquid metal. This is a big TIM change that is likely in direct response to the PS4P problems. LM is significantly more expensive, but also significantly more thermally conductive. However, it has drawbacks: most DIY builders wont (shouldn't) use it because the gallium in it chemically destroys aluminum (which, if the bronze color of the heatsink wasn't enough evidence, points to the heatsink being copper) [1], and its electrical conductivity means one little spill and you fry your motherboard. Neither are issues for the PS5, but it has also been observed to need reapplication more often than traditional compound. I trust Sony did the due diligence in this area, so it doesn't concern me, but its also something to keep an eye on; if we start seeing overheating issues in these consoles ~2022.

- In a split-second shot, we can see the aluminum backplane as he flips it over, and it appears to have an integrated copper heatsink/heatpipe running between the capacitors at the bottom of the unit to an air intake in the rear. Those capacitors are in the same area as what I think is the power supply he removes at the end (I don't know japanese, and that unit didn't get an english translation). Just interesting.

- There's a split second scene where he flips the board over before the camera zooms in, and you can see the thermal material still applied to a BUNCH of chips; afterward it appears that they cleaned it off for the camera. It looks like at least the SSD controller, NAND cells, and maybe even the GDDR6 system memory and a few other assorted chips all have traditional thermal compound smeared on them. Some of these chips are on the rear of the board facing away from the big copper heatsink, and the GDDR6 cells appear to have an airgap between them and the aluminum backplane, so is that actually thermal compound? Its something.

[1] Gallium destroying aluminum isn't just a "ok it'll corrode in a couple years" kind of thing. LockpickingLawyer has an incredible video where he demonstrates this reaction; the aluminum is gone in a matter of hours, not months. DO NOT use liquid metal as a TIM unless you are very confident there is no aluminum anywhere it could touch, and you're incredibly careful during the application. Ok, your heat sink isn't aluminum; is your CPU lid aluminum? Very likely. Don't use liquid metal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeghGhVdt9s

⬐ Dennip

I think both intel and AMD use Nickel plated Copper IHS'

⬐ selykg

> That stand is a crazy piece of unnecessary engineering just to make the customer's life a wee little bit easier. Very cool.

I loved this little detail as well. Now that I know about this I'll probably pull it out of the box and look at it in more detail, where I probably wouldn't have bothered before.

> but I also expect Sony will have some PS5 branded SSDs right in the Best Buy gaming accessories isle so hopefully too many people don't get burned by this. Definitely prefer it to Microsoft's proprietary strategy.

I expect that this generation, due to price increases in games, that I do a lot less buying of random games because I happen to be in the store. Which will force me to finish the games I have before moving on, waiting for games to go on sale. I don't know if I'll have much concern about storage space this time around. I'll keep a couple of online games on for good and some arcade games I can pickup and putdown easily. But otherwise, it'll probably be buy game, install game, finish game, uninstall game.

We'll see how this is impacted by how large the installs get I guess.

⬐ bartread

It's not an unattractive piece of hardware and, by pure luck, the aesthetic will probably work well enough in my living room, but it's absolutely massive, and I have no idea where I'm going to put it.

I know it's not terribly exciting but I do wish console makers would give a little more thought to this kind of thing when designing their devices. Weird and wonderful shapes - not to mention form factors biasing toward the vertical - are all very well but, for me at least, something that's about the same size and shape as a typical hi-fi separate is a lot easier to slot in to my media centre.

Also, options on colour (which I imagine will come in this case) would be appreciated.

⬐ fl0wenol

This is the sort of thing I imagine people sticking on top of a subwoofer in the vertical orientation. That'd be my plan when I decide to go for it.

⬐ pfranz

The theory is the wacky designs are to discourage you from stacking it or putting it at the top of a stack. I have no idea why they push vertical orientations.

I imagine the size is to disperse heat, manage dust, and keep noise down. I don't think it's popular in recent years, but people often put equipment like this in an enclosed cabinet under their TV or directly on the carpet (where most dust comes from). This also has the power supply built in, which increases the size (I hate those in-line power bricks).

You hear complaints about most gaming console's size, but you also hear lots of noise and dust complaints as well as failures due to heat. On forums you often hear about people replacing the thermal paste and diligently cleaning the inside of their consoles to get the noise down.

⬐ bartread

Those reasons certainly make sense, given the less than ideal environment into which many will install their console.

My media unit is (very deliberately) open at the front to allow for maximum airflow, although this does make it something of a pain to dust.

Still, it is possible to design components - even those that generate significant heat - to be stackable. My hi-fi amp generates quite a bit of heat but uses a massive heatsink along with vents all around the case to manage it. I do wonder, if the PS5 were simply a cuboid with a couple of larger (and quieter) fans, the kind of heavy duty heatsink it already has, plus plenty of vents around the case, whether that would work.

But, as you say, it comes back to dust, and those air vents would be the perfect route for that dust to enter the device, particularly if it's sat on the carpet (which its form factor pretty much guarantees it will be in many homes).

⬐ jhack

The PS4 Pro had heat and noise issues so it looks like they've taken that feedback very seriously. Happy to see liquid metal there, too, instead of the usual blob of below-average grey goo you'd typically see in a mass market consumer product.

⬐ RubberShoes

Anyone else reminded of the fat PS3 in this teardown? Almost all the components are in the same place with a very similar disassembly sequence. I had a weird sense of nostalgia watching this for a piece of gear I've yet to see in person

⬐ TMWNN

It makes sense that the first iteration of a new product is going to be easy to disassemble, because large products are easier to design and manufacture. It's the later models (PS3 slim, PS4 slim, the future PS5 slim five years from now) that are optimized for maximum cost reduction and manufacturing efficiency and will be as hard to fool around in as a current iPhone or Macbook.

⬐ neurostimulant

So the people that joke about PS5 looking like a fan is actually right. This thing is basically a huge fan!

⬐ speedgoose

I didn't realize that this is a huge console. Why so big?

⬐ soulofmischief

It seems cooling and power needs for more recent hardware have called for larger designs to compensate for larger heatsinks, fans, ventilation systems, etc. The actual SoC is quite thin.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

Watch the teardown, the heatsink and fan are absolutely huge.

Biggest complaint with the PS4 Pro was noise with certain games. Think this is to address that.

⬐ None

None

⬐ notyourwork

Really off putting. It looks to be due to cooling and unnecessary contours. I’m not sure this fits in my entertainment stand and I have a rather large family room entertainment unit.

⬐ salex89

Let's put it this way. I would rather my MacBook Pro is double its height than having this. In my PC I intentionally put a chunky, oversized cooler just for the fan to be silent as long as possible and keep the performance as long as possible. Consoles should be performance machines, in my opinion, form should follow function, and beautiful does not mean tiny.

⬐ kingnothing

I believe they're supposed to be able to stand horizontally as well for what it's worth.

⬐ notyourwork

Not interesting in a console standing on the floor in my family room.

⬐ brisance

I owned 3 Xbox 360s which all failed due to cooling issues aka Red Ring of Death. More power to Sony if it results in a more reliable system.

⬐ thejobsdev

The PS4 fans were quite loud as the games got more demanding.

I think they are cognizant of this going into this generation of consoles.

Possibly over compensating but personally prefer a larger console for a more quiet experience.

⬐ tumidpandora

Staggering the amount of engineering put in just for the stand!! PS5 is a marvel of pure engineering and industrial design, every component crafted to perfection.

⬐ nwellinghoff

That heatsink is a thing of beauty

⬐ cactus2093

I feel like I'm missing something - how is Sony able to sell this for so cheap considering how good the specs seem to be?

The GPU looks perhaps about on par with something like the RTX 2060 which is $350 on its own. Looking briefly online, a mid-tier pre built PCs with similar specs (this GPU, 8-core CPU, 16GB RAM, fast NVME drive) like this Dell XPS costs $1350 [0]. Granted the CPU on the PS5 is probably worse than on that machine, but it's still pretty solid at a 3.5Ghz Zen2.

Not to mention if you you wanted a Mac with similar specs, you really can't compare directly because they don't sell a consumer desktop machine, but you could easily pay $3000 for an iMac with similar specs (plus the screen obviously).

[0] https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/desktop-computers/xps-deskto...

⬐ niea_11

As explained in other comments, Sony doesn't make money from the console but from the games, the accessories and the services. The console in this case is a loss leader : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

⬐ LEARAX

I still can't possibly see them competing against Atari without the power of the blockchain [1].

[1] https://atarichain.com/

⬐ _pythonlover_

XBox Series X gpu is even more powerful and I think they are more like RTX 2070 class GPUs. They make money on subscriptions and games and probably just selling hardware without profit.

⬐ pengaru

It's not unheard of for proprietary consoles to be heavily subsidized by the manufacturer to penetrate the market.

It doesn't take selling very many games to the customer to turn a profit.

⬐ jmull3n

They are able to subsidise part of the hardware cost since they'll make money back over time on game sales, subscriptions, etc.

⬐ jayflux

Same as other comments they most likely sell at a loss, but do remember, they buy these components in bulk so it will be nowhere near the consumer price for the same/similar thing. Manufacturers know that PlayStation sells a lot of consoles, so they’re willing to drop prices to have that long stream of income spread over many years.

⬐ major505

Wow this new playstation is a Chunk boy. I guess they where having trouble with termals, so they make it bigger?

⬐ ganoushoreilly

I also wonder if it's over abundance simply because of the loud excessive noise of the previous gen that many people disliked.

⬐ acomjean

The bottom half by volume is all heat sink. Pretty remarkable

⬐ masklinn

The heatsink and fan are absolutely massive, the only other remotely large component of the thing is the PSU, so either they were having trouble or they way oversized them to not get any trouble in the future.

Especially since there's no filter anywhere, so all the dust is going to get sucked straight and will be clogging up those heatsinks pretty fast.

⬐ Zenst

It is also the use of liquid metal - how will that hold up past two years or so warranty period on your thermals on top of the other grease and crime of today's air that will build-up overtime. Probably all be fine for a couple of years/warranty period though and even then, does seem well serviceable design wise - though how far you can service outside warranty without Sony limitations will be the crux with all manufacturer hardware. But servicing any paste/clean-down does from the ease in the video seem to be within the reach of many due to the lack of any special tooling, let alone any hot glue gun shenanigan. Also mindful how they made the side panels very user accessible, so maybe custom side-panels will be a market opening up more there - which is a nice touch. Though I'd imagine it may become a thing that running with the panels of makes it better akin to how people are with dust covers upon speakers.

Though as with all first gen new consoles, they do tend to sit on the edge needing large cooling systems and then a couple of years later a revised (die shrink) update comes along and is now cooler, less power hungry, cheaper to make....same old story. I also expect by then the need and use of liquid metal will be removed as that won't be cheap cost wise either over conventional pastes/pads.

Still, makes you wonder if the blue-ray drive with that shielding is more additional heat-sink and be interesting in seeing the temperature of a disc before and after playing for an hour. But then, you just don't get those kinda things done in testing

They have two dust traps with dedicated holes to vacuum out - covered in the video.

⬐ andrewmu

In the video at 2:31 the presenter says it has two dust catchers.

⬐ gbil

he does mention the 2 dust catchers and that you can vacuum them.

by the way, if you've seen console repairs - haven't done any myself since many years - you'll remember the huge amount of dust they suck in. Being able to vacuum that is a big big win for the longevity of the device

EDIT: just noticed at the end the disclaimer about the dust catcher :) I mean, they still need to be covered from a legal point of view

⬐ am_lu

7:08 of the video, notice in small font: the dust catcher does guarantee the hardware clogging from dust :-) I once owned a PS4, found on the street, salvaged hard drive from it, it was chock full of dust, probably run never cleaned in a busy family home, ran till it died.

⬐ anfractuosity

Is the liquid metal on top of the CPU just instead of a thermal paste then I assume?

I guess it's probably gallium?

⬐ bserge

Gallium, indium and tin. People have been making their own liquid metal TIM at home. Playing with the ratio of the metals leads to different results in temperature and ease of application. Pretty cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galinstan

Worth noting that it reacts chemically with other metals, including copper. It etches into the heatsink and processor heat spreader, so you might need to sand them down after prolonged use.

Still, it's the most effective thermal interface material so far.

⬐ anfractuosity

Cheers, hadn't heard of that alloy before.

I bought some gallium to play with after seeing this video of it on a lock - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeghGhVdt9s

⬐ bserge

Wow, so that's pure gallium. No wonder liquid metal manufacturers recommend you never use it on aluminum!

⬐ detritus

Yeah, I bought some gallium years ago after seeing videos of its effect on Aluminium. I wanted to get a sense for its 'potential' during dark post 9/11 days of terrorist threats and such, adding another mental concern - "What if someone dribbled some down the side of a plane's window?". After playing with it a bit, i figured it'd be pretty hard to cause harm (you need to scratch the oxide layer for the gallium to affect ally).

Worry gone, it's made for an interesting toy since :)

⬐ herpderperator

While this is a great video, I am confused why the APU is being referred to as an SoC. It seems to contain just CPU+graphics, which AMD defines as "APU":

The AMD Accelerated Processing Unit (APU), formerly known as Fusion, is the marketing term for a series of 64-bit microprocessors from Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), designed to act as a central processing unit (CPU) and graphics processing unit (GPU) on a single die. APUs are general purpose processors that feature integrated graphics processors (IGPs).[0]

The memory modules on the PS5 are not built in, which seems to be a key factor to the definition of SoC:

A system on a chip (SoC) is an integrated circuit (also known as a "chip") that integrates all or most components of a computer or other electronic system. These components almost always include a central processing unit (CPU), memory, input/output ports and secondary storage – all on a single substrate or microchip, the size of a coin.[1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Uni...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_on_a_chip

⬐ fl0wenol

Higher performance SOCs have caches and memory controllers integrated, but main memory and main non-volatile storage external so they can be varied at assembly for different SKUs.

⬐ dapids

Memory modules? AFAIK Not a single SoC in wide use has the main memory (of this size) on chip, sure the controllers might be and caches too, but not the system memory itself, memory is dense and typically requires large floor plans. I don't think the naming is as odd as it seems. There are likely very complex system components in that chip, not just a "CPU+GPU".

For example, the raspberry pi uses a broadcom SoC, the DDR memory is external, that doesn't stop them from still calling it one even though they might offload certain features (like how the PS5 has offloaded the disk controller).

⬐ herpderperator

The Raspberry Pi 4 has 8GB of main memory and it's on the same die as everything else.

⬐ herpderperator

The original Raspberry Pi had all of that on one chip, but it does look like the later models do not have it all in one, perhaps because the larger memory capacities cannot actually fit in a chip of that size. So it seems you are right.

⬐ neuronic

So we are going to be able to easily customize face plates. Nice. That's how people will get their black option.

⬐ amiga-workbench

Make that a matte black, and I think I could just about tolerate this things design.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

Big fan of the console teardown as advert idea Sony started with the PS4. You really can't imagine console makers doing that before then but it's so cool to see Sony/MS engineering teams showing off their handy work.

⬐ matco11

You can see that a lot of love went in the design of this thing, both inside and outside.

⬐ Eriks

So does it have 8 or 16GB RAM? https://twitter.com/EriksRemess/status/1313858788680773632

⬐ typon

There's no ambiguity. He said it has 8 GDDR6 chips, resulting in a total of 16GB of RAM.

⬐ Eriks

Ah, yes. Didn't think of that.

⬐ anigbrowl

I wonder how difficult it will be to get Linux running on it - there are some proprietary components like the SSD controller but this seems like it would make a great affordable workstation as well as a console.

⬐ elorant

The cooling mechanism is quite impressive. A huge fan, liquid metal, and a heatsink that's ginormous. No wonder that thing can support 8 cores and a GPU in such a cramped container.

⬐ fomine3

Found Kioxia NAND on this device. Possibly they also use SanDisk. I wonder whether they use other NANDs or not because they developed original controller.

⬐ wtallis

I would bet that they at least have their SSD controller working with Micron NAND in the lab. But in the near term, they probably don't need to worry about having any price or availability issues with the Kioxia/SanDisk BiCS4 TLC parts.

⬐ blondie9x

So much transparency. This is a huge win for sustainability and for the repair communities. Good to see Sony being open here.

⬐ enz

I’m really impressed by that huge heatsink!

⬐ gorgoiler

Great drama!

I wondered what all the space in the case was for and you don’t find out until the very end.

My goodness, is it a sight to behold.

⬐ animex

I think the Neapolitan Pizza council would object to the term "console" in reference to the PS5.

⬐ dzonga

just pure engineering and industrial design, you rarely see these days. everything carefully thought of.

⬐ randyrand

What was that huge block of plastic they took out near the end?

⬐ curtis3389

Looked like the front-panel to me.

Had a couple PCBs for the buttons or lights on the front.

⬐ shen

Looks like the PSU.

⬐ chmod775

The black block was the PSU. You can enable subtitles on that video.

⬐ ezconnect

The size is big, I am surprised it's that big.

⬐ jonplackett

Did Sony just teardown their own hardware?

That's kinda genius.

⬐ Izikiel43

So it's a heatsink which plays games, cool.

⬐ peanut_worm

that is one hell of a heat sink

⬐ zouhair

Him not using gloves was quite unsettling for me.

⬐ DanBC

He has clean hands. Why does he need gloves?

⬐ zouhair

Doesn't matter[0]

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOaFeGreAJw

⬐ DanBC

But you haven't said why it matters.

⬐ hundchenkatze

Why? I don't use gloves when working on my PC. Should I be wearing gloves?

⬐ zouhair

If you touch the PCB with your fingers, yes.

⬐ geerlingguy

Ditto, the only reason to use gloves is if you want to completely avoid fingerprints and/or finger oils on things, but 99.9% of electronics work involves touching delicate parts on edge (where the oils won't cause any issue) or using tools like pliers, spudgers, tweezers, etc.

If you're rubbing your oily fingers all over chip surfaces and connectors, that's on you :D

⬐ zouhair

Didn't he do it in the video?

⬐ tngranados

I’ve always liked how Sony’s consoles had the power supply integrated, but in this case I’d rather keep it out of the case. This console is just too big to hide in my current living room setup and too ugly for my taste to display it. I was going to preorder it but I’m going to wait and see it in person first.

⬐ ch0I9daAiO

When he took the stand off, I was quite impressed it used a screw. Then they had a place for the screw in the stand, even more impressed. Then a dummy cover for the screw hole, wow. The whole stand assembly rotates to hide the screw storage compartment. And arms to mount that stand to the console to lay it flat? Stunning the amount of engineering they've put in for a simple stand.

⬐ Fej

The PS4 has one of my favorite little touches like this. Accessing the 2.5" bay on the original PS4 is done by sliding off the cover of one of the four quadrants. The HDD caddy is held down by one screw. Not sure about the Slim and Pro, but on the original, it's a Philips head screw, but not just any Philips head - it's wider than necessary so that they could etch their trademark four symbols on it.

This is a custom screw that 99.9% of users will never see (guessing at that number of course) but they put it in anyway. That must have been a lot of work.

⬐ rangibaby

That's an improvement on the original fat PS3 that I well after its prime (2014 or so?). The screws on the original HDD caddy were in so tight that even with the correct driver and OK technique I managed to strip them. In the end I threw the caddy out and made some shims out of cardboard to stop my replacement SSD bouncing around too much, it worked great for a few years until it succumbed to the YLOD. My original fatty PS2 still works great!

⬐ danudey

This was my first thought as well. "Oh, it's screwed on? People are gonna lose that screw in a heartbeat." And then one wow after another.

This is the kind of industrial design that needs to happen more.

⬐ pkamb

I was impressed by the toy-looking screwdriver he used to removed that screw — the design and placement of which looks like is meant to be turned with a coin such as an American quarter.

Turns out there's a tool for that!

https://toolguyd.com/pb-swiss-tools-coin-driver-theres-a-scr...

⬐ rangibaby

$20!!

In Japan the standard variety of "coin drivers" are the local equivalent of $4.99 so they can compete with the humble $5 coin.

⬐ numpad0

btw I think one of the reasons why they exist is Japanese coins are thicker than most coin slots. Can be annoying if something is foreign made and I can’t find a penny that fits in desk drawer.

⬐ makkesk8

And still less than apple's $1000 stand, I don't know how they do it!

Jokes aside, it's very impressive.

⬐ BitwiseFool

Courage?

⬐ Polylactic_acid

If you look at the monitor + stand its actually cheaper than competing pro monitors. I have no idea why they didn't just make the monitor more expensive and the stand cheaper and include vesa holes to avoid the years of jokes that followed that stand.

⬐ kinkrtyavimoodh

Because it gives them free publicity and bolsters the 'luxury' perception of their brand.

⬐ jsjohnst

> its actually cheaper than competing pro monitors

I mostly agree with you, but Dell has an 8K monitor (albeit fugly in comparison) for around $3500 including stand (if memory serves).

⬐ Polylactic_acid

Was that dell monitor calibrated and rated for professional usage? I don't use this stuff but apparently most of the cost is making sure the screen perfectly replicates colors and not just being high resolution.

⬐ ancientworldnow

I use professional monitors in color critical environments and we've tested the apple monitor and it absolutely is not appropriate for professional usage despite their claims to the contrary. We're using Sony, Flan fees Scientific, and Dolby and the Apple isn't even close.

⬐ aikinai

Posted above as well, but this incredibly detailed review agrees with you.

https://youtu.be/rtd7UzLJHrU

⬐ aikinai

That was their story, but apparently it can’t actually compete with pro monitors.

https://youtu.be/rtd7UzLJHrU

⬐ jaxx75

I had a similar feeling when I saw the PS2 had a logo on the front that could be rotated if it was in vertical orientation. Really nice thought put into these details.

⬐ ehsankia

Imo, that was way over-engineered and actually will be useless. Without seeing this video, it's almost impossible for users to figure all those steps out.

Simple is always better, and in this case, something that PC case manufacturers have been doing for some time now are screws that never fully detach even after being unscrewed. It does the exact same job without having all these extra steps and complicated UX.

⬐ agloeregrets

Yup. Microsoft subtweeted them about about how to put the XSX on it’s side by showing it being just knocked over. Lol

⬐ mikewhy

Loving the shade MS is throwing Sony's way around things like how to play a game released last gen (you put the disc in your console), or how to put the console in a different orientation (you lay the thing on its side).

⬐ anigbrowl

That's just payback for the shade Sony threw at them on the last gen where they showed how to share games by just giving someone else your copy, whereas on Xbox you had to do some sort of library setup and checkout procedure before your disc would work in your friend's unit.

⬐ mikewhy

Oh absolutely. I enjoyed that too.

I wish MS would also poke fun at Sony's "We believe that PS5 games should take advantage of the new capabilities and features we're bringing to the platform" statement attempting to justify why PS4 controllers won't work with PS5 games, meanwhile most launch titles are cross-gen or might come to PC.

⬐ x3haloed

> that was way over-engineered and actually will be useless.

Completely. It's cute and all. But the better engineering design is to make a console that can stand without a... stand. No parts to lose, no assembly/disassembly process. Just turn the device on its side. Now where have I seen that lately?

Edit: When he pulls up on that one side of the white cover and then the whole thing pops off, I thought, "Sony would be good at designing serviceable androids."

⬐ numpad0

Perhaps due to the fact that the concept of screws in Japan was never independently invented but discovered in an imported weapon almost into the modern era, or due to developments in mechanical engineering that defined postwar Japanese cultures, but anyway Japanese population is kind of obsessed with screws for some reason.

Japanese thought process of a machinery is it is made of machined metal and infinite numbers of 3mm screws. Look at a Casio watch. There should be four Phillips screws on the backplate. Two extra on sides and four more, if it's rubber exterior ones. A Rolex, has zero. Just like that. First choice of fasteners to join any two arbitrary parts is a pair of 3mm screws. If a joint has to articulate, there should be a pin on one side, hole on the other, and a 3mm screw to seal off the end. If it has to slide, tapped hole on a bar and a half threaded screw.

It's cultural thing. I'm from Japan so an "eerie" lack of screws still confuse me sometime when disassembling non-Japanese things.

⬐ mikewhy

I'm in the "this thing seems way over engineered" camp. The stand rotates not to hide the screw hole (it's a neat feature, but the screw seems to clip into something to stay put), rather it rotates just to fit the odd shape of the console.

Why not use a captive screw so it can't fall out, and design a console with a flat bottom so no rotation/moving parts are needed?

⬐ Waterluvian

I noticed that immediately too and in my opinion reflected so poorly on the over engineering. I remember the PS3 having a lot of silly little nuances that don’t make the games any better. Like the buttons that weren’t real buttons. The PS3 slim cut costs and eliminated all these things.

My sense is that it’s all just a way to help make the price tag feel like you’re getting something premium.

⬐ anigbrowl

You are. I'ms till using a ps3 daily a decade later and by now I feel a weird affection for it. Over engineering is good.

⬐ jonplackett

Anyone else think it looks waaaaay better when he takes the white bits off?

⬐ ChuckNorris89

Yeah, as a hardware engineer this feels like porn to me but I also feel the whole thing is overengineered and expensive to design and build(for consumer electronics) versus Microsoft who drew a box in AutoCad and called it a day saving tons in R&D, tooling, materials and manufacturing which is how most hardware projects are ran nowadays in this industry since at that kind of scale the small things add up quickly, eroding your already razor-thin margins but maybe Sony has enough money to bankroll this project.

You can also notice the difference in cooling design. Sony has 2 heatsinks, a large and complex heatsink on the top with many heatpipes for cooling the APU and a small heatsink on the back for cooling just the VRMs stuck to the backplate with its own heatpipe(holy cow!) while XBOX is just a large copper plate with aluminum fins saving Microsoft tons in materials and build cost but they had better done their math right to make sure that it will be enough.

Sony had balls to go this route, I'll give them that. Respect.

I suspect Sony didn't penny pinch since they plan to make most of their money back from sales of games and services(ala Apple) while Microsoft probably wants to make more from the hardware itself(ala Android devices).

I have no dog in this fight, but my favorite part is the PS5 consumer friendly expandable storage via M.2 PciE drives(Yeeey!) vs the XboX overpriced and proprietary SSD cartridges(Booo!).

⬐ rbanffy

> Microsoft who drew a box in AutoCad and called it a day

I actually like the simplicity of their design. The white one has a bit of Dieter Rams in it. The black tower is just that.

Form must follow function and the console itself has few simple functions: to house and properly cool the computer inside, and to make it easily accessible for repair and upgrades. It's hardly surprising it has few simple lines.

OTOH, the PS5 has a lot of lines to disguise a huge heat exchanger. It's not obvious how to even power it on.

⬐ neighbour

>The white one has a bit of Dieter Rams in it.

Thought the exact same thing. I am a huge fan of the Xbox designs. The white one specifically reminds me of an upright Dieter Rams designed Braun turntable [1].

...and as I finish typing the section above I find this [2]. Looks like someone else already had the idea.

[1] https://musicologistblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/braun-p... [2] https://au.phaidon.com/agenda/design/articles/2020/september...

⬐ neogodless

To this day I am not fond of the "touch" power control on the PS3! I hope the power control is more intuitive, fast and simple now!

... yeah I don't even have last generation consoles but I'm considering this new generation.

⬐ ihuman

> It's not obvious how to even power it on.

I think the power and eject buttons are the two lines on the bottom when its standing up

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/ps5/

⬐ whywhywhywhy

This generations designs are really weird to me, the PS5 does not feel like part of the same design lineage as PS2 and 4 (I always considered 3 the weird outlier and the ugly one). Honestly looks more like a descendant of the XB360 language. Feels such a strange departure when the PS4 had such a beautiful and striking design from aesthetics, brand and functionality.

From purely aesthetics I do think the new Xbox is the better looking and more modern looking machine, although the gigantic PS5 heatsink is going to help a lot with noise.

⬐ tomc1985

Indeed, I want a game console that nicely sits on a shelf with lots of other A/V components without standing out

⬐ Polylactic_acid

The Xbox design looks classy but uninspiring. I like that. You can sit it under your tv and it will blend in with the style of most rooms.

The ps5 is designed to be eye catching which I think is a mistake because most people probably don't want a game console to be the centre of attention in the room.

⬐ sings

I agree that this feels like a critical misstep. Casual gamers will not want an over the top design in their living room. Maybe they are intentionally ignoring that market with this generation, but I was thinking of upgrading my PS3 and am having second thoughts because this thing is, well, a bit silly looking. It looks like a movie prop for a sci-fi film.

⬐ tomc1985

Did any of the PS3 models look any better?

I recall a very funny PS3 barbeque meme floating around, back in the day. To say nothing of them using the Spider-Man font

⬐ PascLeRasc

I feel like with how easy it is to remove the side panels there will be aftermarket toned-down black ones made.

⬐ rbanffy

Also, you'll hate the PS5 in two years, when the curvy design is outmoded.

It'll be hard to hate a box you'll never even notice.

⬐ mr_toad

> never even notice.

I can imagine this being snuck into workplaces and when the PHB asks what it is the reply is it’s a router or NAS box.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

PS4 was perfect in that regard IMHO. It was an interesting enough shape to by cool when you actually looked at it, but anonymous enough that you didn't even notice it when not looking at it.

⬐ emodendroket

I'm sorry, what planet are you guys on where gamers don't want attention-grabbing hardware? Not on the one with the rest of us where all "gaming" branded stuff has garish lighting I guess.

⬐ gambiting

Your average "gamer" according to the industry's own statistics is a 25-29 male, owns one of the consoles, and buys exactly 3 games a year - Fifa, CoD, and one other action game. Maybe 4 if it's a good year. It's definitely not your stereotypical "gamer" type buying RGB everything - so yeah, I would guarantee that this kind of average gamer does not care about their "gear" being attention grabbing.

⬐ emodendroket

Again, I don't think this is the person going out of their way to get scarce launch units.

⬐ thirdsun

I’m not sure how scarcity during launch is relevant to this particular discussion. The design of the console, which was the original issue discussed here, will be the same whenever the console becomes widely available.

On the other hand I agree that looks won’t be the deciding factor for any potential buyer - casual or not.

⬐ ksec

>what planet are you guys on

Not really a planet, but a stage in life called marriage.

There are certain part of the world where Playstation has to be disguised as a new super fast WiFi Router called Plash Speed ( PS ).

⬐ tomc1985

It only got really bad once computer building went to YouTube

⬐ kungito

In a world where console owners do not call themselves gamers but are regular people who like to play a game from time to time

⬐ emodendroket

I very much doubt that those are the people who are going to be buying PS5s this holiday season.

⬐ orestarod

They are, if they have a job. Not being sarcastic, it's just that 500 euros/ dollars is an ok amount for a piece of entertainment that will last a few years, so they will buy it now even if they are not playing all day long.

⬐ emodendroket

I think not because they're going to be hard to find and casual players aren't going to F5 the page all day trying to get one.

⬐ naravara

I think those people will end up buying the cheaper, but much higher margin PlayStation 5 Slim a year later.

I’ve also heard some speculation that the curvy shape is specifically designed to keep people from impeding cooling by stacking things on top of it.

⬐ gambiting

The time difference between regular and slim consoles being released has been pretty much spot on 3 years for all consoles, on all generations going back 20 years. If Sony releases a slim PS5 "a year later" that would be unprecedented.

⬐ kristianc

Probably speaks to the different strategies at play. The Xbox is being treated almost as a piece of commodity hardware to run GamePass on, PS5 the device is much more the star of the show. No strong opinion on either approach but does explain a lot of the design decisions.

⬐ Lammy

Presumably Sony made an informed decision based on positive reaction to the PS4 Pro? They probably want it to be beefy for a next-gen PSVR too.

⬐ Fej

> my favorite part is the PS5 consumer friendly expandable storage

This is a pattern, the PS3 and PS4 both had end-user accessible bays which contain a 2.5" HDD. Any drive can be formatted even from blank using the console's safe mode.

> the XboX overpriced and proprietary SSD cartridges

This is also a pattern. The original Xbox and Xbox One had internal hard drives that were not end-user serviceable. The Xbox 360 used 2.5" HDDs in cases. The original 360 drives had a special port on the cases, for whatever reason. The 360 S/E drives used regular SATA connections, it's plainly obvious looking at one that the connector is just the edge of a 2.5" HDD.

⬐ Bluecobra

Same with the PS2 as well, all you needed was the network adapter and you can pop in a standard 3.5” IDE hard drive. You can even get a 3rd party boot disc to copy/load games off the hard drive to improve load times.

⬐ jsjohnst

And run Linux too...

⬐ iceman2654

Sony is an electronics engineering company, and it really shows. The quality, forethought and care put into creating this product is part of their tradition. Microsoft, while doing wonderful things to make software more accessible is not an engineering company, and that shows too.

I only hope Microsoft has tested their cooling solution better than the 360 era. I don't want another RRoD situation.

⬐ kumarharsh

"Microsoft is not an engineering company"

Looks at the Surface hinges

⬐ easton

> versus Microsoft who drew a box in AutoCad and called it a day

Microsoft spends a lot more time on engineering their hardware than that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiQ2nAQG7Mk

⬐ jayd16

>Microsoft who drew a box in AutoCad and called it a day saving tons in ...

That's all well and good but I fear it won't fit inside a lot of media centers. The PS5 is big but it fits inside the envelope of an A/V Receiver.

⬐ kevingadd

Seems like it should be fine if you lay it on its side?

⬐ 98codes

It's not wider than my AV receiver is tall, I imagine that it'll be fine.

⬐ jayd16

Yeah? Looks like we do have numbers now and its just under 6" so I guess it'll be ok. I thought it was closer to 7" which would start to get pretty tight.

⬐ ranieuwe

How to cool it in a media center though? This thing should not sit in any enclosed space given the fans shown.

⬐ mastazi

I guess it depends on the media center? Many have no back panel so they are not an enclosed space. In terms of airflow you can think of them as small server racks.

⬐ boogies

> they plan to make most of their money back from sales of games and services(ala Apple)

I thought Apple seems to do the opposite: they constantly raise iPhone prices while cutting features that increase manufacturing cost (eg. replacing the headphone jack with an empty hole large enough to fit a lightning→3.5mm dongle), and I’ve heard Apple fans argue here, I think more than once, that Apple is able to offer less profiteering (more privacy friendly) software because they make so much on hardware.

⬐ monadic2

I don't see why Apple can't go for both high software AND hardware margins. These don't seem like contradictory goals.

⬐ boogies

I agree. That’s why I think they do “penny pinch” on hardware (in certain areas) and don’t need to “make […] money back” on software, but take what they can get there anyway.

⬐ lumost

If your going to make money on the backend via services then there is no point in cheaping out on hardware. You make money by having more customers, in a competitive marketplace this means that you need to be the best, a distant #2 won't make you anything once you start needing to offer incentives to both keep customers on your platform - and keep developers onboard.

⬐ emodendroket

The pitch is presumably that it's the cheapest way to play. In fact MS looks to be pretty interested in chasing that same streaming dream as Google Stadia and others are.

⬐ nchase

I wonder if it is more expensive to manufacture – I know Sony had a pretty amazing-looking automated manufacturing pipeline for the PS4: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/PlayStation-s-sec...

⬐ PascLeRasc

There's a spot to store removed screws in the base! I don't even play games but I want a PS5 based off of this teardown. It's so heartwarming to see a manufacturer encouraging modifying hardware these days. I'm sure there's guides incoming on how to add Noctua fans and liquid metal paste to the heatsink.

⬐ pkulak

Yeah, the part that really did it for me was when he snapped off the top plate and there was an empty M.2 slot just sitting there.

Also, the blower fan is interesting. Though, like you said, there is a lot of stuff in there to push air through, plus dust filters (yay!), so it probably made sense to go with static pressure over pure volume of airflow.

⬐ ch0I9daAiO

Not 100% on this, but I think the Xbox one is actually a vapor chamber not not solid copper.

⬐ bhj

> XBOX is just a large copper bottom with aluminum fins saving Microsoft tons in materials and build cost but they had better done their math right to make sure that it will be enough.

Early indications are not great[0]. Granted, the most noticeably hot part of a system should be the exhaust.

[0]: https://www.pcmag.com/news/multiple-reports-suggest-xbox-ser...

⬐ kevingadd

Yeah, ultimately the complaints there just demonstrate a failure to understand why a game console would be hot. If it's using 200W it's going to dump 200W worth of heat one way or another. No cooling solution will fix that if the device is just producing more heat than can possibly be dissipated in a pleasing way.

In that sense, maybe the PS5 will have an advantage here by being large, because there's more surface area to work with so it won't feel like a little furnace, even if both consoles end up having no thermal problems (in terms of the chips overheating, etc)

Claims that the console is toasty even while idle are suspicious, though. It really shouldn't be drawing that much power while idle, so I hope that's not true at launch. So much hardware has this problem though... my macbook's USB C dock is almost a fire hazard with how warm it gets even when it's not in use.

⬐ naravara

> suspect Sony didn't penny pinch since they plan to make most of their money back from sales of games and services(ala Apple) while Microsoft probably wants to make more from the hardware itself(ala Android devices).

When I saw how nice everything looked my first thought was that they’re going to release an updated “slim” console in, like, a year after launch that cuts a lot more corners. They get lots of hype to encourage sales up front by packing a ton of value in the launch model. That encourages more people to buy into the ecosystem and then they launch a future one that designed with higher margins in mind.

⬐ ksec

Sony has always done that with their first version of their console. As they expect to die shrink to 5 or 3nm down the road for much better thermals. Along with other redesign that makes manufacturing less expensive.

And both company are not making much if anything from Hardware. The profits are all in games. That is part of the reason why Games is getting more expensive with every gen.

We need some real innovation to help driving Game development cost down, especially with respect to Graphics.

⬐ blinky1456

I guess Sony makes a lot of other hardware products already, maybe that experience gives them an edge over Microsoft.

⬐ leokennis

I think purely from an industrial design point of view, Microsoft’s entire Surface line (laptop, tablet, headphones etc.) are all very intricately designed.

⬐ deanCommie

> Microsoft who drew a box in AutoCad and called it a day

"Microsoft has no taste": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KdlJlHAAbQ

as true now as it was in the early 90's.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

Think anyone who has touched the current generation of Surface devices know this statement just isn't true anymore, for their hardware teams at least.

⬐ tw04

> XboX overpriced and proprietary SSD cartridges(Booo!).

Which is incredibly ironic given how long it took Sony to adopt standard storage devices in the past. I think they were literally the last camera manufacturer to support CF and SD cards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_Stick

⬐ berti

That may be so for the camera division but not for PlayStation. My PS3 takes a standard 2.5” drive. Not sure about PS4.

⬐ tw04

The PS3 was well after the ship had sailed. That’s the whole point, it took them 3 generations to stop. The PS1 and 2 both required custom memory cards as well when the original Xbox was using a standard SATA drive.

Oh how the turntables.

⬐ gambiting

You might be misremembering reality - yes, the original xbox shipped with a normal drive, but the X360 had a proprietary drive in a custom enclosure, but actually the most popular model didn't come with any drive at all - just a proprietary memory card. Then the Xbox One has a regular sata drive, but I wouldn't call it "user replaceable" - it's very hard to access and requires a complete disassembly of the console, while on PS3 and PS4 all you needed to do was remove one screw and the drive would come out. The same seems to be true on PS5 again.

⬐ tw04

What are you talking about? The xbox360 was an off the shelf 2.5” drive with custom firmware in an enclosure that took 30 seconds to open.

https://youtu.be/XIrW4pzVNmk

Ignoring the fact that the 360 isn’t the original Xbox... which is what I literally said.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_(console)

⬐ gambiting

I did address the original Xbox though, did you miss my first two sentences?

⬐ tw04

I clearly read your first two sentences. You told me I misremembered reality, claimed the 360 was a proprietary drive, and were wrong.

⬐ dont__panic

First thing I did after buying a PS4 Pro late-cycle was replace the internal HDD with a (bog-standard, massive, cheap) SSD. Considering how fast my games tend to load, I honestly wonder how the PS5 benchmarks compared to my SSDified PS4 Pro.

⬐ Aissen

Even if you have the max of SATA3's 6Gbps, the on-board SSD of the PS5 with hardware compression should load at 44Gbps.

⬐ jsjohnst

> the on-board SSD of the PS5 with hardware compression should load at 44Gbps

You sure about that number? That would be close to 2X faster SSD than Apple uses in new MBPs and they are already insanely fast compared to most SSDs. Would love a source if you have it.

⬐ tw04

You answered your own question. The PS is doing hardware compression which will effectively increase your bandwidth by your compression ratio. 2:1 isn’t that hard to believe.

⬐ jsjohnst

Show me 2:1 compression on game assets that are commonly already heavily compressed. Need to see the Weismann score on that! ;)

⬐ royjacobs

http://cbloomrants.blogspot.com/2020/09/how-oodle-kraken-and...

⬐ jsjohnst

1) the link doesn’t say 2:1 compression now, but rather 1.5:1 with more in the future. Where I obviously made an error in judgment was assuming this was from previously compressed textures, where as this seems it’ll be the way to initially compress the textures. Great results, just hadn’t thought about it that way, silly me.

2) it doesn’t matter anyway, the SSDs actual read speed is 5.5GB/sec (aka 44Gbps) raw performance. About the only mass market consumer targeted drive I know of (could be others of course) that’s faster is the one I mentioned in a sibling comment (Sabrent M2 Gen4 tops out at 5GB/sec for example) Further, without having heard officially myself, I believe this confirms its PCIe 4.0 bus internally (which wouldn’t be surprising given other specs I know), as if memory serves PCIe 3.0 can’t get that high.

⬐ fomine3

https://blog.playstation.com/2020/03/18/unveiling-new-detail...

⬐ jsjohnst

5.5GB/s, very impressive indeed! That’s getting close to the speeds of Samsung’s 980 Pro M.2 NVMe SSD With PCIe 4.0!

⬐ Aissen

Correction : the 44 Gbps (5.5 GB/s) is the raw bandwidth, without compression. Compressed data bandwidth is higher, but variable.

⬐ Dylan16807

A benchmark is going to be an order of magnitude faster, because it's not using SATA.

But more importantly the big goal of building in the SSD is so that games can be designed with no load times, which beats any loading time number you can hit.

⬐ chrisfosterelli

> Microsoft probably wants to make more from the hardware itself(ala Android devices).

This is pretty much the opposite of their stated strategy, which is to make money off services like Game Pass by ensuring that the consoles are accessible and all of their first-party games work across multiple generations / levels of consoles [0].

The PS5 was reportedly "considerably" more expensive before xbox announced their price [1], and Sony has been clear that game prices will go up for next gen and they're not focusing on cross-generation compatibility, so I do believe you're right that Sony at least expects to get it back on the games.

[0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/xbox-vs-playstation-microsof... [1]: https://bgr.com/2020/09/11/ps5-price-and-release-date-vs-xbo...

⬐ egsmi

> This is pretty much the opposite of their stated strategy, which is to make money off services

I’m sure their internal strategy is to make money on the hardware, software and services. Basically everything. As Apple has shown, it’s not necessarily the worst plan.

⬐ emodendroket

If that were really their strategy then they've got a strange way of pursuing it.

⬐ jjoonathan

Yes, and also say that you're not making money on any part that people complain about being expensive. Salesmanship!

⬐ Red_Leaves_Flyy

Microsoft shot themselves in the foot by announcing pricing first if true. Not that I'm complaining. $300/500 and monthly options to boot is very consumer friendly. The hype over the proprietary memory card is overblown. I'm sure either Microsoft will release a compatible adapter that takes any m2 drive and or a Chinese factory will make them and sell them on Amazon.

⬐ nsriv

The proprietary memory card is going to be necessary for storing/accessing new titles designed to make use of their Velocity Architecture, any old external will do for games Xbox One or back-compatible games.

⬐ stirlo

Not sure why they didn't enable storage tiering for regular external HDDs.

It would be far faster to move a game from external HDD back to the Velocity SSD before playing than to download the entire game again from the internet.

Feels like a money grab tbh.

⬐ chrisfosterelli

> Not sure why they didn't enable storage tiering for regular external HDDs.

They did: "A USB 3.1 drive can also carry Xbox Series games as storage, which can be transferred to Series X or S's internal SSD or Storage Expansion Card to then be played."

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/xbox-series-ssd-expansion...

⬐ kumarharsh

That's not entirely correct. You can use any regular old SSD: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-games-on-an-external-...

⬐ cheschire

During the last gen consoles, Sony folks have said on camera how they were quietly cheering when MS announced a price point way above what the PS4 was targeted at.

Maybe Sony expected MS to aim higher again, and this time it was MS who undercut.

⬐ freeone3000

It's also got a 1TB internal drive, with the memory card being *optional.

⬐ vbernat

Sony had user-replaceable hard disk since PS3. Microsoft never proposed this. I don't think it will change with this generation.

⬐ kingbirdy

FWIW you could put in a new HDD in an original Xbox, and put a 2.5" HDD in the 360 hard drive enclosure, but neither were officially supported.

⬐ mTrebuchet

With the original Xbox, they used hard drive locking that made it difficult to swap out to a new one. Its been a very long time since I've done it, but I seem to remember having a hard drive powered by a normal ATX PC, then swapping the data cable over from the PC to the Xbox while it was still on to achieve a HDD upgrade (with other steps in the middle that i've all but forgot).

⬐ kingbirdy

It was a hassle for the 360 as well, you had to plug the drive into a PC first and run a homebrew tool to "bless" the drive so that it would work with the console

⬐ anon73044

Even the PS2's optional hard drive bay!

⬐ stas2k

PS2 was soft-locked to Sony supplied drives.

Nowadays that bay is very useful for booting games off any HDD. SATA is also supported by using a IDE->SATA board.

⬐ byte1918

PS5 drives must also be pre-approved by Sony, supposedly due to strict hardware requirements, like 5.5GB/s[1] sustained bandwidth. I personally think it's silly, sure, bigger numbers mean better performance but I would be surprised if most games wouldn't work perfectly fine with a nowadays average SSD.

[1] https://www.pushsquare.com/guides/which-ssd-drives-will-be-c...

⬐ xbmcuser

Ah no ps5 and xbox both have been designed for fast loading of game textures. Even the new nvidia and amd cards support the same so current games might be okay with slower drives but texture loading has been a bottleneck for 4k gaming which this solves.