HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

I know I'm a bit late in answering now, but just wanted to let you know, I'm honored my post managed to tempt you out of lurkdom :D

Also, building a house with your own hands sounds pretty awesome, I think there's a reason these 'do stuff the old-fashioned way' videos on YouTube have such a following (there are these pretty famous videos about a project similar to yours[1], if you haven't seen them). And good luck with the project!

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBX5qh09OIE

If you're in to "young people building their own home" then check out Erik Grankvist building a small cabin in the middle of the forest using only primitive tools.

Here's a 2 hour video that's very relaxing to have on in the background (only the sound of hard work, no speech): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBX5qh09OIE&t=7s&ab_channel=...

And, yes, he begins by literally chopping down trees.

⬐ swiley

I’d build my own home if I had somewhere to put it.

⬐ tmikaeld

Have followed his work from the start, really inspiring and he really does live off-grid by using solar panels, a battery and then do the editing/posting from his laptop.

⬐ sjaak

A great excuse to drop a link to this legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke

Richard Louis Proenneke (/ˈprɛnəkiː/; May 4, 1916 – April 20, 2003) was an American self-educated naturalist, conservationist, writer, and wildlife photographer who, from the age of about 53, lived alone for nearly thirty years (1969–1999) in the mountains of Alaska in a log cabin that he constructed by hand near the shore of Twin Lakes. Proenneke hunted, fished, raised and gathered his own food, and also had supplies flown in occasionally. He documented his activities in journals and on film, and also recorded valuable meteorological and natural data.[1][2] The journals and film were later used by others to write books and produce documentaries about his time in the wilderness.

⬐ throwaway4good

I thought classic text on this was Thoreau's Walden:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden

Actually I don't think it is moral. This idea of going somewhere remote and just living off the land.

As an adult you are supposed to produce more than you are consuming.

Just as when you were a child or when you become old, society will give you more than what you are capable of producing.

⬐ narag

As an adult you are supposed to produce more than you are consuming.

I feel that this view is terrible, not sure about why. Maybe because even if they can't stand others, you still want them to keep suffering.

I think life is no bargain. Living in society, I try to be nice with others and most of the time I'm on the nicest group of people AFAICT. But living by certain codes, such as strict non-violence or considering that we all are indebted with society, I can't agree. Moral purism just seems wrong to me, if it makes any sense.

⬐ the_af

Agreed. I think it's terrible because it reduces human life to a game of input-output, expressed in seemingly economic terms ("produce"? What the hell does that mean?). In a way, it's also a technologist's outlook, but there are other outlooks, many more ancient and elaborate.

⬐ 8bitsrule

There are lots of CEOs who personally produce nothing. I guess they never heard of that 'supposed to'.

⬐ NoSorryCannot

If living is debt then you can charge it to my parents' account. I didn't make the sale.

⬐ narag

As a friend used to say: live off your parents until you can live off your children.

⬐ Cullinet

I read your "indebted with society" and the word that formed in my thoughts was "indenture".

if you are saying that we're become indentured to modern society, I have never thought of it like this before but I am immediately inclined to agree with the idea given how much intellectual and practical learning and effort as well as usually some form of capital it requires to be able to live quietly somewhere on the fruits of your self catering labor. I suspect that if more people were able to access such a a life, then the quality of life for everyone might be notably improved.

⬐ angry_octet

It isn't an indenture in the sense that you can leave the country. But society definitely makes a large speculative investment in every individual. Encouraging women to have children, parental leave, public hospitals, childcare, school, arts and science for public enjoyment and edification...

Back in the pre-Victorian era this was certainly not the norm. All these costs were self funded, and unsurprisingly people were uneducated, but parents still invested for their future by educating their children.

It reminds me of the thought: if you're a hunter-gatherer and you hunt and kill a deer, you can only eat so much. You have no preservation system. What is the best way to store it? In someone else's belly.

So society begins with a community, where by cooperation we achieve more together than we could individually. I feel that this is where these isolationist/survivalist ideas break down. Even the young man building the cabin is relying on years of education, knowledge about tools and construction, and of course food and medicine. I'm also not sure I would consider this sustainable if it can only be accessed by a fraction of the world's population.

The irony is that this image of off grid living is funded by the >30 million hours of screen time from people in high income, high carbon economies. My computer is using 130W just watching it, though lower on mobile I guess. So should we ban entertainment? No, because it sparks the imagination and cooperation, the force multipliers of society.

⬐ sjaak

Without contesting your moral stance: what makes you think this man didn't contribute more than he took over the course of his life?

He moved to nature at the age of 53 and stayed there until right before he died. If anything by not consuming housing and healthcare he 'took' less than his peers of the same age.

⬐ throwaway4good

I am sorry, I didn’t meant to speak about the morals of any specific person but instead of the general idea.

Both Proenneke and Thoreau have made massive contributions, no doubt about that.

⬐ Dumblydorr

Arguably, he did produce more than he consumed. By his story, journals, film, and data, he has spawned numerous discussions and adaptations and inspired wonder. This is a lot more contribution than many adults in bizarre esoteric fields today.

⬐ Turing_Machine

Well, Thoreau wasn't quite as self-sufficient as is often believed.

For instance, he used to bring his laundry home for his mom to do.

⬐ beefield

Of course, if everyone did that, we would have a problem. But this is not a linear thing. If more people would do this than currently does, rest of the society could enjoy more of some of the scarce resources, thus as a society we would be better off. Thus UBI to let more people do things like this.

⬐ stepbeek

> As an adult you are supposed to produce more than you are consuming.

Can't I just produce enough to support myself? Why would that be immoral?

⬐ rob74

As long as you still don't rely on others when you get sick or old, I guess it would be ok...

⬐ catmanjan

There is always the age old pension scheme of having a child to make up the difference

⬐ Daho0n

If you want to give back having a child is the worst you could do. Not having a child would give more.

⬐ None

None

⬐ ic0n0cl4st

> Actually I don't think it is moral. This idea of going somewhere remote and just living off the land.

Consider how much of the fruits of our labor ends up in landfills and this seems like a somewhat disastrous philosophy to me.

⬐ NoSorryCannot

Ah, morality and the purpose of existence, topics that are famously settled and not open to serious debate or conflicting interpretations.

⬐ user3939382

In reality he lived basically at the edge of town, not in the middle of the woods and his experiment was short lived.

To your point, I would argue that your moral responsibility is at least to break even, which you can’t do in isolation because your parents in most cases sacrificed a huge chunk of their lives and resources raising you.

⬐ tarsinge

There are plenty of companies and whole industries people working for contribute negatively, so at least it's fairly neutral.

⬐ emteycz

No person implicitly owes anything to anyone. It's more than enough that anything a person does within society is taxed.

⬐ wing-_-nuts

>Actually I don't think it is moral. This idea of going somewhere remote and just living off the land.

>As an adult you are supposed to produce more than you are consuming.

This is just a fascinating moral outlook to me.

One has the responsibility to look after one's parents, but why is there any moral imperative to be 'productive'?

⬐ blacktriangle

At this point we're drowning in people who consume more than they produce, anybody who gets to break-even I'd consider doing a moral good.

⬐ supernovae

When society and American capitalism becomes moral, then we can discuss the morality of those who don't conform... until then, with homelessness, poverty, starvation, disease, substance abuse, crime and such happening in "modern society" without much regard for those suffering in it I can't fault people whose only means to escape it may be isolation from the system(s) that don't give them the same privileges we have to debate this from the comfort of our computers/tech/internet and access to ycombinator

⬐ tomcooks

The only problem with Walden is that said cabin was far from detached from civilization

⬐ tygtty

The ever growing bureaucrat class does not produce anything. They invent new rules and substitute religions to siphon off economic value while sitting at their desks, commanding and intimidating the productive part of the population.

⬐ ethbr0

Anarchy doesn't scale.

⬐ emteycz

You can minimize the bureaucracy, erasing it completely is not the only option.

⬐ krageon

"X doesn't scale" is not an interesting argument because nothing has to. Society can very easily be small, done thousands of times.

⬐ ethbr0

I didn't think it needed more saying. Happy to hear arguments why "anarchy doesn't scale" is false.

Small societies, done thousands of times, sound a lot like individuals.

Unless you're proposing some sort of overarching organization principle by which these individuals agree to abide, in which case...

⬐ ArnoVW

I'm pretty much an utalitairian, and I agree that that should be the objective. But it does raise an interesting point. Do people in "civilised society" produce more than they consume? Some, maybe. But the average person? I have no statistics to base it on, but I'm not convinced.

Yes, we extract a lot of value. From the earth, from others (directly, or indirectly). But perhaps the depressing fact is that in terms of raw creation of value, perhaps "playing even" is not even such a bad "score"?

⬐ jonplackett

I’ve wondered about this too. I’m guessing a lot of the effort going into society is from other countries. People picking fruits and growing food is hard working going in. But it probably becomes a problem of definition. Is a tech CEO / Wall Street banker giving or taking value if they enable millions of people to do work but consume a great deal themselves. Everything’s all too muddled up

⬐ catmanjan

I think the value needs to be traced to an essential need, only those functions resulting in food, water, shelter count as intrinsic value - by this definition tech CEO's contribute less than an average farmer

⬐ jeffwass

You say only farmers and home builders create value.

But the farmers and home builders who work at scale require tools and resources created by industry, which in turn require raw materials, an ability to process these materials, and an ability to transport them.

So are people working in those industries any less important than the farmers and home builders themselves?

Further, those industries are capitally intensive and require a financial network to raise and allocate the capital required so these industries can function.

In a nutshell - everything is connected. How do you simply decide where to draw the line of who is contributing an essential service and who isn’t?

⬐ catmanjan

I said value needs to be traced to an essential need, this covers most industries pretty well - but there seems to be a lot of tech that is more than 5 times removed from an essential

⬐ krageon

I would posit tech exists almost entirely to distribute wealth without requiring any measurable value to society. It's our answer to what is from a certain point of view a post-scarcity economy where everyone feels that without work there should be no food.

⬐ WanderPanda

I think dicounting for corruption, the material/monetary amount is a very good proxy for value. So I would say the average ceo yes, but companies relying on government spending (Palantir I’m looking at you) maybe not

⬐ Retric

Value is rather abstract, but economic value is arguably equivalent. As such the long term increase in global wealth suggests over a lifetime the average person must have a net positive output economically, though it may be quite small. Further, as infants are unproductive adults must on average produce significant excess value.

PS: Extracting wealth from other people is a meaningless transaction when summing the net impact of every person.

⬐ catmanjan

How are you measuring wealth? Global debt is nearly 4 times global GDP

⬐ KMag

Debt is an absolute level. GDP is a rate of production.

Debt / GDP ~= 4 years. That doesn't sound insane, particularly if much of that debt is secured, but I'm not any sort of financial analyst.

⬐ iso1631

By comparison my mortgage is 3 times my income, and that's not a high level.

Of course the other issue is that my personal "gdp" runs out when I retire - thus I have to pay capital as well as interest to continue to own the asset afterwards. That doesn't apply to countries.

⬐ UweSchmidt

This "positive economic output" must account for the environmental impact that humans have: We are currently depleting this planet quickly in ressources and biodiversity, and the "carbon tax" is just the tiniest attempt of putting this on the balance sheets. If you chop down a rainforest and sell the wood, is your economic value positive or negative?

This inconveniently conflicts with the old focus on economic output, the 1950s baritone-narrated black and white documentary of assembly lines and all the production numbers going up - progress!

Instead, the dude in the wilderness might hint at a happy and fulfilled life based on limited ressources.

⬐ marttt

See also: Pentti Linkola:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Linkola

And Lasse Nordlund (I think he was called "optimistic Linkola" or "positive Linkola" somewhere :):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasse_Nordlund

⬐ leafmeal

Here's a link to the site with the documentaries about him https://www.dickproenneke.com/

If you are at all intrigued by this, I highly recommend them. Buying a DVD may seem dated, but I promise, these are worth it.

⬐ jksmith

This. Great video documentary. Another, more hippy fun: Yukon Passage - a NatGeo production.

⬐ disabled

This family is even more fascinating:

For 40 Years, This Russian Family Was Cut Off From All Human Contact, Unaware of World War II: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-rus...

Lykov Family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lykov_family

The Lykov family (Russian: Лыков, romanized: L'ikov) is a Russian family of Old Believers. The family of six spent 42 years in partial isolation from human society in an otherwise uninhabited upland of Abakan Range, in Tashtypsky District of Khakassia (southern Siberia). Since 1988, only one daughter, Agafia, survives. In a 2019 interview, Agafia explained how locals were in contact with the family through the years and in the 1950s there was a newspaper article about their family.

Agafia Lykova: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agafia_Lykova

⬐ Clewza313

More sad than fascinating: lots of kids dying of malnutrition and starvation etc. The Vice documentary is pretty incredible though: https://www.vice.com/en/article/wdp339/agafias-taiga-life-fu...

⬐ uyt

I'm really addicted to these rebuild-civilization-from-scratch youtube channels.

The one who got me into it was of course "Primitive Technology": https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/vid...

Which spawned a huge number of copy-cat channels which are all pretty good too:

Survival Skills Primitive: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChUP6B_3zcdFYZnOdMM21og/vid...

Primitive Skills: https://www.youtube.com/c/PrimitiveSkillsnet/videos

⬐ agumonkey

PT was such a zen thing. Both for the environment aspect and the crafting side too. I so stared at the price of forest/land after watching his videos. I could see myself doing that all day long.

⬐ bertil

_How to make everything_, especially since the “Reset” is closer to the overall arch, but more as a proof of concept far less contemplative. What it lacks is Malick-esque sequences it gains in how… average, as in, not great is the host. These guys learn a craft and it shows. HTME is here to prove that you _could_; personally, he fails more often than not but you can see how one could.

⬐ theshrike79

Obligatory:

- Turn on subtitles when watching Primitive Technology, he explains stuff in the subs.

⬐ fireattack

Wow, just realized Primitive Technology hasn't upload a new video for a year. Did he say something about it?

⬐ Saig6

I think he has stated that he is working on a project for Discovery or some other channel.

⬐ cleansy

Yes, apparently he is working on a project for a cable network.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PrimitiveTechnology/comments/gscvv8...

⬐ rags2riches

To see a log cabin built with skill and experience, I can really recommend this older film from Finland. It's a joy watching these men work.

https://youtu.be/_3J5wkJFJzE

Edit: hit the CC button if your Finnish is rusty.

⬐ hinkley

https://youtube.com/user/nikrijavec

This guy at least is ESL, and he does tight joints like your Finnish fellas there. If memory served he actually puts a gasket between them. Nobody needs to be making drafty-ass cabins these days.

⬐ justnotworthit

> "skill and experience"

There are many one-off DIY projects on youtube that have greatly expanded my knowledge... but I worry that these kind of videos are piece-meal, stumbling-in-the-dark recreations of lost wisdom.

Something that reveals the "culture" or mindset of these kinds of videos: The author felt the need to justify using modern tools (tractor instead of horse) but no one questions what's traditional about a young man building alone, without a team of men of different ages.

I thought Mountain Men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_man) were the exception, not the rule.

⬐ woolly

Another very deep hole to fall into if you're into log cabin builds is Nik Rijavec's build here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMjAl_0yeKwUAQ2A3tQFcnA

And for the cabin/upcycling vibe, Modern Self Reliance: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClhInAMlPM1UcjD8lI4o7UA

And for more solitary living-off-the-land type stuff, Shawn James at My Self Reliance: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIMXKin1fXXCeq2UJePJEog

⬐ oflannabhra

These are the two that I came to post. James is just getting started on a whole new cabin (he's moving) so I'm pretty excited to see him apply the leassons he's learned.

⬐ nabla9

Is this guy using fresh logs? If so, expect lots cracks and settlement. The house will sink and shrink a lot. It would be better to cult the logs, let them dry out and settle several months before using them. Modern log buildings use oven dried logs.

Edit: I think cutting the trees video might actually be few years before building the cabin.

Edit2: In his latest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsIgziUp1LE you can already see how some of the logs have bluish color several centimeters into the log. They have been getting wet at some point. Bluish and moldy is bad news.

"House museum. Traditional log house by traditional methods in 1980" (Finland). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajb9FMzmamw

⬐ swader999

If you take the bark off with a draw knife it seals the wood by closing the pores. Chainsaws rough up the wood and open it up. The most important part is the bottom, you need to keep the bottom row away from mud and wet ground.

⬐ Xophmeister

Ah, so that's why he stripped the bark off. That was my first question. My second question is: What's with the moss between layers? I assume it's to fill in the gaps and provide insulation, but won't it rot?

⬐ nabla9

Moss is used for insulation. It will dry if it's not getting wet.

Wooden log houses need long eaves to keep the water away and logs dry.

⬐ TrackerFF

If you enjoy this stuff, do check out "Alone in the Wilderness" with Dick Proenneke

Here's a clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss

⬐ GNOMES

Came here to comment about this. Man made handles for all of his tools to save backpack space, and forged for most of his food.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy-4NxJRxNQ

⬐ willvarfar

Another YouTube channel to follow is “Wild Wonderful Off Grid”. It’s a modern build, so complements all the log cabin channels being recommended.

⬐ rob74

...but also take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_the_Wild_(film) and the story behind it for a more cautinary tale.

⬐ DoingIsLearning

It is easy to romanticize Proenneke's films, they are cinematically beautiful but also don't highlight the hardship and practice the man had to go through to get to where he was in his mastery.

Proenneke was a trained mechanic, who spent most of his life around farms and who's father was a carpenter and welder. He was also a very happy introvert. At age 53 the man had enough skills under his belt to fully appreciate the risks and work needed to survive in that harsh environment.

McCandless was unfortunately just a young man in search of himself.

⬐ ozychhi

If you are interested in similar content, I recommend you check out youtube channel Advoko Makes. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc1ufNROdAxto9Fr0jnEE2Q

⬐ aquir

Advoko's channel is great!

⬐ karaterobot

I was going to link Advoko Makes if it wasn't already here. That guy amazes me more than anybody else, not just because of the scale of the stuff he builds by himself out in the middle of Karelia, but because of the preparation and focus he shows. He clearly spends 11 months out of the year learning new skills and planning down to the smallest detail what he will do in the one month of build time he has each summer.

⬐ jacquesm

Pretty impressive. All with handtools except for the tractor and it was either that or bring a horse, and that's a whole lot of extra work, so I can't really fault him for that choice.

Funny to see how his axework improves over time, in the beginning unsure and shallow, then later on with much more force and confidence.

⬐ tommilukkarinen

Spent last summer building a one room log cabin.

In the end I wound up using makita battery powered chainsaw. You can do precision work and quickly too.

I did not have any skill before and my vacation was short, but theres now a 5' by 12' cabin, 8' tall, on my yard.

This summer it's the floors, roof etc.

The video is much cooler of course, just saying if you want to try something with limited time.

I had help every now and then. Looking back it's a project for two people definitely. Logs are heavy and having four eyes is better than two, especially as a beginner.

⬐ gfrangakis

Managed to make it through without being attacked by a single greyling. Quite the accomplishment

⬐ mzi

I cannot for my life find it now, but I saw a documentary on YouTube or similar a couple of years ago. It was oldish, from the 1960s or 1970s about the restoration of a historical farm in what I believe was a national park in the US. The farm house was build from planks and not logs as this house and the carpenters did it all from scratch. A very soothing film, as documentaries from that time often is.

⬐ erhk

Talasbaun uses real log working in their log cabin, which they are building for the purpose of moving from their current log cabin. This video seems misguided in comparison. https://youtu.be/ycRjXW2aW_s

⬐ jonplackett

Next time I’m complaining to myself that something is taking a long time, I’ll remember this video.

⬐ MonsterBurger

This video was in my recommended last night - I watched about an hour of it and was really intrigued I intend to watch the rest later.

It's not a new video. but HN posts about it just AFTER I watch it. Coincidences eh.

⬐ mclightning

Same happened to me, except 3 days ago. I did a search in comments to find this. Because I was so sure, this is not a coincidence.

It happened to me several times now. I suspect there is a "zeitgeist" sort of thing to the Youtube's recommendation engine. I mean it recommends same individual videos, to a given demographic of people in same span of time.

PS : I live in Sweden, I suspected it was just that.

⬐ Grustaf

Someone has been reading Hamsun!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_the_Soil

⬐ callumprentice

The Birth Of A Wooden House https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV7pmE4MC-I

Might be one of my all time favorite videos - the story of a man building a beautiful cabin in Latvia I think, from scratch using traditional tools.

I feel really drawn to doing the same thing even though it's an impossible dream for a huge number of insurmountable reasons.

I am so excited to sit down and watch the OPs video - food for my soul - thank you for posting.

⬐ Arrath

In a similar vein that people might enjoy is an old National Geographic documentary, following 4 friends who retrace the Yukon Passage through Alaska. Including: building their own raft to sail down the river, and wintering over in a cabin they build. Great watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3NWdFll2X8

⬐ clipradiowallet

Could someone more knowledgeable explain the concrete footing and foundation log barrier? I can't make out what it is between them...it looks like a burlap sack, but that can't be right. What is preventing the concrete from transferring water into the foundation log? There is obviously some material there, I just can't fathom what it is.

⬐ modeless

Subtitles said it's birch bark.

⬐ clipradiowallet

Thanks! Serves me right watching it muted...didn't even consider there was audio [or CC]!

⬐ aerovistae

My first thought was "wait, did he provide food for himself too?" Seems he brought food instead of providing.

Which is fine, building a cabin on your own is cool as hell in of itself. But the title and video description sort of give the impression that he's living off the land alone, which doesn't seem to be the case?

⬐ rini17

It seems to me that either you do this "return to nature" alone, or there's a community inexorably sliding toward being a cult. There's nothing in between and then sadly, relationship of our whole society to nature suffers from this.

⬐ driverdan

I downvoted you because there are millions of people who live in rural areas and aren't in a cult. I have no idea where you're getting this idea from.

Try getting outside of cities and go somewhere rural next time you take a vacation.

⬐ rini17

Have you read my reply with further explanation?

⬐ driverdan

The one about having a garden? If so it sounds like you're in suburbia, not a rural area.

Get somewhere actually rural, like a town with less than 1000 people or an area with most people in agriculture. Somewhere people can't see their neighbors. You'll find most people don't care about suburban nonsense like preening lawns and HOAs.

⬐ rini17

The context was a "return to nature" movement, not specifically suburban morals. Rural areas, at least in my country, mostly consist either from intensive unsustainable agriculture, or forests that get logged out with increasing speed. There are attempts to steer to more ecological and climate-change-resistant land management but it's so slow and arduous. Nature is to them just something to be exploited.

⬐ bildung

I've visited a few communities quite a while ago, and I've found a common trait of those that didn't devolve into a cult: They were outward-oriented right from the beginning: Volunteering for various purposes, engaged in the local communities around etc. - things that made steady social contacts with the outside world a necessity. These communities usually also had less problems with gaining new people once the founding generation got a bit older.

It's the same as with normal individuals, actually: The more the individual traits make one prefer solitude (like introversion or social anxiety), the more it is mandatory to maintain steady contact with others, otherwise the own comport zone steadily shrinks further.

⬐ EdwardDiego

I lived in an alpine village[1] for about 18 months - mainly to see if I could handle the winter, the isolation when the road closed due to snow and there were no tourists, just us. I was villager number 37, I think.

In Spring, it rained (heavily, 5m of rain a year on average) 28 days out of 30, and on the other two it drizzled. Depending on the moods of the weather, floods could take out the roads[2], or slips, and never mind the earthquakes.[3]

During the winter you had to fill the kettle at work before 10am, because 10am to 11am was the coldest part of the day and that's when the pipes would freeze (the village lay in a valley running north to south, and the mountains limited winter sunlight to 11am to 2pm).

We weren't "returning to nature" as such, we always had power and usually dial-up (at a terrible bps...), but we were rather close to nature's virtues[4] and vicissitudes. We all relied heavily on wood fires, some on coal, although we only lost electricity some of the time.

What was really interesting for me though, was how a population of 37 handles all of the above, without killing each other.

Generally, everyone had one or two people that, I'd guess you'd call friends, but in reality were "people I can spend time with okay". Other than that, everyone kept themselves to themselves. In such a small village, it's very easy to gossip, hell, when you've only got two TV channels (and did I mention the shit dial-up?) it's an attractive option.

But, there were three types of occasions the entire village came together:

1) Happy Hour at the local pub on a Wednesday. And this misleadingly named event could last until 4am.

2) Cleaning up all the crap that tourists like to leave behind. So. Much. Litter. Basically an emu parade[5] over 3km of village.

3) Whenever an emergency hit. Whether that was flooding, a power outage, a bush fire, everyone pitched in as they could, no matter their differences, everyone was in it together.

I really enjoyed the model of living apart together, to be honest. Only reason I moved is that I got married, and about 20km down the road was a rather worrying neighbour, who I didn't want to subject my wife to...[6]

> The Alpine Fault has a high probability (estimated at 30%) of rupturing in the next 50 years. The rupture will produce one of the biggest earthquakes since European settlement of New Zealand, and it will have a major impact on the lives of many people.

But yeah, there was no inexorable slide towards a cult, because no-one could be bothered with that crap. And there were no "This man is actually an island, screw you John Donne" people, because when the the freeze came, and the cloud base was 100m above you, and visibility up and down the valley was 200m from you, in a valley 500m wide, everyone realised that they needed to talk to somebody every now and then, just to escape the reality that nature had put them in a frozen box.

[1]: https://arthurspass.com

[2]: https://i.imgur.com/kFryHnV.jpeg

[3]: https://westcoast.recollect.co.nz/assets/display/82881-max

[4]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyU3Q5DeKEI

[5]: https://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/resources/aus/word/ma...

[6]: https://www.gns.cri.nz/Home/Learning/Science-Topics/Earthqua...

⬐ throwaway4good

Yeah. Maybe on Youtube, only the extremes exists.

Sweden has thousands of remote houses (ødegård) that be bought or rented for very little.

It can be refreshing going there for a few days. Drinking fresh cold water from a well in the forest, no electricity, a fireplace, some mosquitos, crayfish, playing scrable and looking at the rain.

And then being reminded why it is actually quite nice and much more interesting to live in a big city.

⬐ krageon

> some mosquitos

Now now, surely you mean thousands of mosquitos. Especially if you have a lake nearby, which is a real big possibility in Sweden.

⬐ rini17

I have a natural garden with wildflowers. Anytime unwinding by sitting down and watching the bees. Planted all kinds of fruits and herbs, so there is always something to taste too. Looking forward for trees to grow and provide shade. Nicer than living in a big city.

Everybody else around has a manicured lawn and ornamental shrubs. My garden is unkempt mess to them. That is what I mean by problematic relationship with nature.

I don't think you can fix that by only occassionally spending few days in cabin. I had to discover much of it myself, have personal experience with communities as described and still would like to meet like-minded people but...somehow there aren't many.

⬐ timonoko

Where is the insulation? Methinks these Suedos have built or studied only barns. https://youtu.be/_3J5wkJFJzE?t=519

⬐ bilekas

I've been watching these this year non stop, therse something insanely therapeutic about them.

They also work as a great vector to plan outdoor trips for after the lockdowns.

⬐ motoboi

1 hour of this fellow carefully stacking logs and growing a very fine moustache in the process.

⬐ stelgard

The (real) UnReal World experience

⬐ fuball63

Thanks for reminding me about unreal world, what a gem.

⬐ ur-whale

At 20:05, ... that is a rather inefficient way to use an axe to split logs.

⬐ _Microft

He's only driving the edge of the axe at a particular position into the log. He does not simply need any smaller pieces but slender pieces that he can carve into "bolts" to connect the different layers of logs.

⬐ ur-whale

I'm saying that once the axe has bitten in the log at the position he wants, to finish the split you usually turn your axe around and hit the butt of the axe on the wooden "anvil" on the floor, that's more efficient.

⬐ petey283

This is so satisfying to watch!

⬐ williesleg

Cluckbait

⬐ partingshots

CTHULU SPEAKS THROUGH THE Ả̸̫̩̦̎͆͛̐̽̐̃̃͂̋͋̏̓̿̕ļ̶̢̨̞̭̬̻̠̲͖̦̮̈̀͂͐̿͋̀̓̔̌̄͒̿̉͝ͅg̵̩͈͈̥̹̦͓͂̏̅̿̃͊̓͒͗̽̔̕ǒ̸͎̠̱̆̊̍͊͊͗̓͘͝r̷̡͉̟̬͓̹̟̘̥̥̫͚͕̓͐̉̒̌͂̀̈́̑̃̕͘͝ͅĭ̵̧̛̲͚̥̞̘̳̤͖̏̓̂͐̈́̀͆̅́͐͐t̷̢̳̤̹̭̣̱̠͒̔́̆̏͝h̴̢͖̺̜̺͔͋̈͊̕͜m̶̮̥̙̽̚̕͜ş̴̧̤̯̹̥̣̺̰̣̘͙͕̪̉͐́͆̇̀̄̔͋̕͜͜͝͝

⬐ wiz21c

He's using cement and a tractor for very critical activities... Both are fossil fuels derivatives. So although I find this work super nice, I can't help but see a contradiction.

⬐ erikstarck

The guy is 19 years old and he's building a house by himself. Sorry he couldn't live up to your standards.

⬐ notretarded

Apology not accepted

⬐ EdwardDiego

This...

> Building Log Cabin like our Forefathers

Is literally in the title of the video.

And this is in the description:

> Build my own traditional off grid log cabin by hand from the materials of the Swedish wilderness.

Did their Forefathers really use diesel tractors and cement gathered by hand from the Swedish wilderness?

⬐ erikstarck

And I’m sure the axes and saws he uses are not made by himself either and contains modern welds of steel. Darn those 19 year old kids. Keep taking lazy shortcuts.

⬐ mnsc

He is pretty clear about that in the description.

The tractor is a Ferguson TE20 "Grålle" from 1946, they were wildly used to move timber. In 1950 the first chainsaws came to Sweden but they were too big and heavy to be practical. I didn't want to take down every closest tree. So by using the tractor (also as a little tribute) I could haul a few trees from further away, about 150 meters. I would have loved to use a horse but don't have one. yet..

The real contradiction is that by recording this project with the intention to publish this movie to the world I'm afraid that he totally missed out on the very nature connection that he states he wanted to have. Having to think about his future viewers and what angle would best document his work he must have lost the immersion building a cabin in the way his grandfathers did, youtube-free, would mean.

⬐ matsemann

> Having to think about his future viewers and what angle would best document his work he must have lost the immersion building a cabin in the way his grandfathers did

Meh, why is that so important? When I go skiing, half the "fun" is getting great shots. One can argue I'm not as "immersed" as compared to just walking up the mountain and ski down. But to me it enhances the experience and lets me even relive it later.

⬐ mnsc

I tried not to judge him, I think building a cabin to show the world how it's done is as valid cause as any. But I realize that maybe I did secretly judge him because I have had some great moments with my grandfather building things around a cabin deep in the Swedish woods long before smart phones were a thing. But I didn't appreciate those moments when they happened, because young and restless, and if I could have made a YouTube channel out of that I absolutely would have because that would have been more fun. But I think that by doing so I would have missed out on the experiences that I now cherish since grandpa is long gone. Don't know where I'm going with this, I think it's cool that op is out in the woods building shit no matter what his experience is and I don't even think I can fully understand how it is to be young now and have youtube/social media as a natural part of life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

⬐ matsemann

I also can silently judge those at a concert (remember concerts..?) that film with their phone the whole set instead of enjoying the music. But in this builder's case, he's there for days and weeks, so I don't think much is lost having to sometimes adjust a camera. And if his goal wasn't to live a year in solitude, being able to share his experiences with others (like us) can also be rewarding.

⬐ atleta

So guy walks out into the forest to build an off grid cabin, just like his grandfathers used to and films it to the slightest detail, keeping placing the camera around for nice shots (like the one where chips fly right towards the lens).

I don't know... sounds more like "hey, I thought I'd make a hit video that would attract a lot of on grid feedback, unlike my grandpa', who probably wouldn't give a fuck about what the world thinks about his cabin".

Now don't get me wrong, it is OK to create a video on anything, including on how to build a cabin or your experience on building a cabin (which is different) or your experience on living alone for a year (I guess this is not what he did), but this just doesn't add up to me.

⬐ Cd00d

Personally, I'm glad he documented his journey in this way. I'm glad to have shared in it, (mind the sarcasm) without crowding his solitude by watching him in person for a year.

It's a real accomplishment. I thought part of the point of the internet was to share things we do. This doesn't read as "gross, wannabe influencer" material, but rather a journey of interest and passion, documented for himself and others.

⬐ atleta

As I said, I have no problem sharing it. The controversy I see is between the message of "off grid, good old fashioned solitude in the forest" vs the "instagrammy, watch me how I do, big brotherish" (as in the TV show) attitude. Not the fact that he conveyed information of what it's like to build a cabine.

In other words if you want to show and document the process of building such a thing, that's ok. But it's not that. If you want to document your 'journey' of solitude, that's OK too, but you can't do that in my opinion by constantly minding about how you look on camera. Because that kind of defeats any purpose I can think of for solitude. (I.e. am I really alone if I keep thinking about the society that I wanted to leave behind and continue acting as if I was still there and they were still all watching.)

You can look at it as an art project. I.e. "this is how I imagine what it feels like to build a cabine in the woods on your own".

⬐ lacker

"How I successfully went off the grid, and got to 300,000 YouTube subscribers!"

⬐ saalweachter

> ...unlike my grandpa, who probably wouldn't give a fuck about what the world thinks about his cabin...

I'm pretty sure 98% of people throughout history who have built a cabin -- or any other sort of home for themselves -- were inordinately proud of it, and the extent to which they showed it off was limited primarily by how many people they could force to come see it.

⬐ atleta

And I'm pretty sure most people hasn't tried to force too many people. It's one thing to tell your family, maybe your neighbour, especially when you know all of them did it it the past and another is going out of your way.

But as I explicitly said the thing I found weird is not that he did share it but the effort he put into the presentation and how I think that doesn't fit with the goal or at least the message.

⬐ ainiriand

I want to ask what do you see that impressive about things like this, really. This guy got bored one day and somehow decided to fell a bunch of trees older than him to somehow not even finish the walls in one year?

And sorry but I am not able to find confirmation about him doing this in his own land which makes the whole situation a bit more awkward.

⬐ dencodev

I think if you do something like this it's more about the process than the result. If all you wanted was a cabin it's faster and cheaper to just buy one.

Cutting down old trees happens all the time for lumber.

⬐ alluro2

I think the process of a young person learning a huge amount of manual skills from their grandfather, putting in the sustained long-term effort and building something from scratch with your hands that has lasting value (like a cabin) is pretty commendable in this day and age.

⬐ dagw

And sorry but I am not able to find confirmation about him doing this in his own land which makes the whole situation a bit more awkward.

Someone linked to a newspaper article above that made it clear he is building on land owned by his family.

⬐ _f3b0

The ice accretion from a few weeks ago weighed down and broke a couple of branches 8-10" thick in my back yard. When it warmed up, I took a saw, a machete and an axe and converted it into firewood over the next few hours. All together, it's maybe 1/20th of a cord that will need a few months to dry, and a mere evening or two to burn.

This is a preamble to a novel of the world of pain my hands, arms and joints were in afterward, at my age and shape. And yet despite being an overpaid typist like most of us here, I regularly do heavy repairwork and maintenance, such as digging 110' drainage ditches on my property by hand, shovel and mattock. But it was the jarring impacts that don't play nicely with our flavor of carpal tunnel.

From that limited perspective, I can appreciate the amount of work this feller put into this build. He's using hand tools. The tractor is in lieu of logging horses or borrowing a half dozen people to pull. IMO, the sheer amount of time and effort that went into this is to be respected alone.

⬐ hnarn

One thing that always seems to be missing from these videos (in general, because there are many of them) is step 0: how do you go about acquiring the land and the permission to build a log cabin on this land? I can't imagine that there's many countries in the world where there is no build code or other legislation regarding how or where buildings can be built. The last thing I'd want to do is spend an entire year building something that I would then be legally obliged to tear down.

If you're felling a large amount of trees in a forest, at the bare minimum you need the blessing of the land owner (if that isn't you). Most likely, you'll also need in addition to this a permit to fell trees to begin with, because land owners in most countries aren't free to simply fell any amount of trees they wish just because they own the land.

It's obviously an impressive feat to build a log cabin from scratch, but since this step is so often completely omitted, I have to ask myself whether this is because it's considered too boring, or because there are people out there who think that as long as you go far enough into the woods, you can do whatever you want because no one will notice.

⬐ burlesona

Just FWIW in much of the rural US you are largely exempt from building codes if you are building your own primary residence. The logic being that if you built it and you live in it and it kills you, well, you only have yourself to blame. This doesn’t apply for many town and city locations, though, as there are often local zoning controls that make you build cookie cutter garbage. But the smaller and and less regulated the area, the more likely you’re allowed to build what you want so long as you do it yourself and don’t sell it to anyone else.

⬐ devenson

This is true in less and less areas, even rural. For example Tennessee adopted state-wide building codes, and counties/cities have to explicitly opt out, otherwise they too are constrained by the codes.

⬐ pasttense01

Even if there are state-wide building codes there usually are not building inspectors in lots of rural areas--too expensive for the local governments. So the only problem is if someone complains to the local governing council. This might happen in rural areas with rich residents--but not poor ones.

⬐ hnarn

Ok, but does being exempt from building codes mean you have the freedom to fell trees in the forest and build a house with them? What if you sell the lumber? Presumably the land is owned by someone, regardless of how remote it is. If you own the land and you're exempt from building codes, are you allowed to fell any amount of tress without regulation? How do you know that the area you're in is not protected?

⬐ Consultant32452

Where do you live that you can't chop down trees on land you own? What is the point of private property if you can't even cut down your own trees?

⬐ CalRobert

In Ireland, it is illegal to cut down any tree in the countryside if it's more than 30 meters from a dwelling and more than 5 years old, with a few exceptions.

Arguably, this is to protect what little woodland we have left. Practically, though, it means that I would _love_ to reforest my land with native species, but don't, because it will forever lose its value as grazing land.

And I tend to agree, though private property is a complicated thing. After all, who did you buy it from? And who did they buy it from? And the person before that? Unless you're royalty and can defend your property by force (arguably the only true allodial title), you're basically borrowing the land from whatever government defends it for you.

⬐ adamredwoods

In the city of Seattle (for example), there are rules for cutting down trees even on private property.

http://www.seattle.gov/sdci/codes/codes-we-enforce-(a-z)/tre...

⬐ bluGill

If the tree is endangered, or the root system is what is holding soil in place preventing landslides, or there is an endangered something else on the land you are sometimes blocked from cutting a tree.

California is famous for such regulations. In other states you are unlikely to have problems.

⬐ Consultant32452

Sure, we're talking about the exceptions vs the rule. The rule, generally, is you can do whatever you want with trees on your private property. There are relatively rare exceptions in cases like you mentioned if an endangered bird has a nest on your tree or something.

⬐ Johnythree

Cutting down trees without a permit is illegal in pretty much all of Australia.

⬐ rmah

In much of the United States (and I assume Europe), there are a variety of environmental regulations which restrict what you can do with your land. I don't know them in detail, but I know that tree removal, wetland removal, changing watersheds, drilling/mining, storing toxic chemicals, etc. often require permits. This is the price of environmental regulations.

⬐ devenson

You must own the land. Generally if they haven't adopted building codes, there aren't many other constraints. But you have to research them via the city, county, and state websites. Fancy counties usually have GIS systems you can access with all sorts protected area delineated.

⬐ hnarn

My point being that since this is not an insignificant amount of work, it's odd that it's so often omitted. I've seen many videos like this but I've never seen it mentioned at all.

⬐ tstrimple

You'll probably find more of that sort of content in the "homesteading" communities rather than the solitary off in the woods alone Youtubers. Here's an example I stumbled across recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWgG5pmhdik

They tend to get more into the realities of this type of work and lifestyle.

⬐ ForHackernews

It's not odd at at all, it makes perfect sense: These videos are about a fantasy of self-reliance and retreat from modern society.

Purchasing land, getting building permits, etc. are not part of the fantasy, so they are never going to feature in the video.

It's like saying "these videos of hot bikini models oddly omit all the dieting and exercise"

⬐ hnarn

If we're just going to make up loosely related metaphors, here's another one: it's like posting a car review composed of nothing but accelerating the car on a highway.

You consider these videos fantasy, for others they may be instructional. That everyone watches popular videos with exactly the same perspective seems pretty unlikely.

⬐ DubiousPusher

The answer to 0 is "call your local permitting office". For real, these people are usually really nice. At first they will probably talk over your head because most of their work is with seasoned developers but as soon as they understand you are a noob they can usually talk you through what you need to do.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

Or they're annoyed you're wasting their time by trying to pull permits as a homeowner but can't outright say that they expect you to not get permits and that they don't care.

⬐ DubiousPusher

You have encountered this? I've pulled permits in multiple municipalities and have not encountered this issue.

⬐ m463

> posting a car review composed of nothing but accelerating the car on a highway

"Hello, Geico. How much to insure a Huracan?"

⬐ mym1990

The creator isn't doing a 'review of building a log cabin in the woods'. Building codes vary so widely from country to country, let alone city to city, and then rural area to rural area, the chance that it has any relevance to you is small. TBH if the video started off with building permits I highly doubt many people would stick around.

You may look at this video as instructional, and that's probably okay, but it definitely wasn't created for that purpose. So its up to you to do the research on the omitted content.

⬐ CalRobert

Well, in some cases people are just ignoring laws because they know enforcement is lax.

Technically, I need to get a permit to cut down _any_ tree over 5 years old more than 30 meters from my house. Nobody does this, and the law is unenforced, but I probably wouldn't put up a video of it for fear of attracting attention.

I also should have tried to get a permit for my daughters' playhouse - _clearly_ not an inhabitable structure - because it's in the curtilage of a protected structure. But I didn't.

Recording things and putting them online invites complaint from busybodies though.

⬐ jk7tarYZAQNpTQa

It's often omitted because the person doing the video usually owns the land. If you decide to build a cabin (not a primary residence) on a piece of land of your property, the amount of work is not insignificant, it's nonexistent.

⬐ hoppyhoppy2

An uninsurable, valueless house that I can't get a mortgage to build nor sell to someone else... I can't imagine why this isn't a more popular option

⬐ Scoundreller

Making housing 3-4x as expensive to build, to include things you don’t need, to qualify for 20:1 leverage is a new phenomenon.

⬐ minikites

Housing is expensive because of the real estate market (speculation, Airbnb, predatory landlords), not because houses are built to have "things you don't need".

⬐ Scoundreller

Not if you’re building a shack in the woods.

“Where’s the R40 insulation?” “This is a 3-season cabin unoccupied 75% of the time. Or the insulation is weak, but the structure and windows are small, so it’s actually far more efficient than an R40 mansion”

“Where’s the septic field?” “The toilet is for guests (100flushes/yr) into a holding tank, pumped out yearly. I use the outhouse”

“Where’s the 20A circuits in the kitchen?” “I have 1 socket for 1 appliance, everything else is gas”

“Why aren’t there sockets every 10 feet?” “The whole point is to NOT have dozens of gizmos here”

“Your shower doesn’t drain into an approved gray-water system” “I can wash my car/shower outside but can’t shower with a bucket indoors?”

“This doesn’t meet min sqft requirements” “I built all the sqft I need, I’ll spend a half my time here hiking and fishing”

Crap like that.

⬐ mc32

I’m not sure someone building out in the woods is actually looking to be encumbered by the trappings of living in an incorporated village?

One whole reason to build out in the boondocks is to build as you like. So it’s kind of beside the point, I think.

On the other hand if you want to build to some code, no one is stopping you either, so there is that.

⬐ newman8r

It's a more viable option if all you're looking for is a simple place to live.

⬐ CalRobert

To be fair, I got a 200+ year old cottage on a few acres with commuter train service under €100k because I was willing to look at uninsurable, unmortgageable houses. Eccentrics with cash are a market too.

⬐ mym1990

Its crazy that someone would do something they probably really enjoy without getting financial benefit out of it. JUST WILD.

⬐ minikites

Under capitalism and according to its most vigorous devotees, it is in fact crazy, because the only important thing to them in life is revenue and wealth. You can see it in the various flavors of "hustle culture" and in the ways people are personally hurt when you insult their favorite corporate brand.

⬐ emteycz

I have never seen a capitalist positioned against pleasure. Why would they bother otherwise? Merely surviving can be done for nearly zero money.

⬐ shanecleveland

Insurance and liability would be a concern for me. I guess if you don't have anyone over and have few possessions it doesn't matter.

⬐ dwiel

I've found that places exempt from building codes are much more common than places exempt from health code. Be sure to read up on local plumbing, waste water, septic, etc. code. They will often dictate things like how big the septic system needs to be, how big pipes need to be etc. Generally good rules to follow if you want such a system. If you want a legal outhouse or composting toilet and/or grey water setup, there are very few places in the US which allow it so be sure to read up first.

⬐ lqet

> If you're felling a large amount of trees in a forest, at the bare minimum you need the blessing of the land owner (if that isn't you).

Great memories: I spend an entire summer building a primitive "log cabin" from young trees as a kid with a few friends in the forest behind my parent's house. After the cabin was nearly finished, we were chased one day by a group of adults (apparently the owners of the forest) and hid a few hours deep in the woods. We only returned the next spring, when we finished the roof. I remember how proud we were when we cycled to the hardware store one day and bought a cheap lock for the cabin door. We lost interest the next year, of course, but the cabin remained intact for years. The local kindergarten used to go there for a few years.

⬐ varjag

What an endearing form of inverse squatting :)

⬐ cmpb

I have similar memories of building shanties and lean-tos and things with my brother behind our house in the woods. I had always assumed it was my grandfather's land, but I only discovered recently that the logging company owns it. Not that they would care - they can't use it because it's protected due to the riparian habitat.

It sounds like our productions were a lot less involved than your "log cabin" though. Mostly just switches and young hollies tied together with briar vines to form a roof, occasionally with walls (built of the same materials).

⬐ Grustaf

Buying an acre of forest in Northern Sweden is not expensive, less than $2k. Even close to Stockholm it's not much more than that, so it's really not a relevant concern if you are willing to spend a year building your own house.

As to building codes, they are very strict in zoned areas, possibly the strictest in the world, but it's much more relaxed in rural areas. Plus even in zoned areas you can always build a 30 m2 supplemental building. Plus a 15 m2 shed.

> considered too boring

Would you really find it interesting to watch the process of him signing the contract to acquire the land? I can't think of anything less exciting than that.

⬐ ike77

I'm pretty sure you'd find an audience, even for an accounting competition reality show. Too bad Netflix hasn't yet produced one

⬐ saalweachter

It doesn't quite go into "watching someone sign the paperwork" levels of detail, but money/permitting problems are frequently at least 5 minutes of each "Grand Designs" episode.

My favorite was where someone built a house in the middle of a block, in previously unused land between the houses, and had to get permission from 17 separate future neighbors to tear down and rebuild the back walls of their gardens while digging the foundations of their house.

⬐ Grustaf

Could be. But it’s probably not the same audience as the wilderness/survival/woodworking audience!

⬐ AdamJacobMuller

Given an identical set of financial information, who can produce a 1040 with the lowest tax liability/highest refund!

⬐ mclightning

Where do you find those? When I filter max limit as 200k sek (20k eur) on Hemnet, I get only 1 in all of Sweden.

⬐ dosshell

You call the owner of the forest. Many owners I know think it is fun that a younger population wants to be in the forest and wouldn't hesitate to sell off a bit for that purpose.

⬐ CerebralCerb

https://www.hemnet.se/bostad/tomt-robertsfors-robertsfors-ko...

Free as long as you live there afterwards.

https://www.hemnet.se/bostad/tomt-norra-rorum-hoors-kommun-s...

10k SEK, close enough to cities to commute.

⬐ 42_

If I wasn't stuck in an Asian country, I would pay decent money to live there :(

⬐ xmm

Neither is close to 1 ha though.

⬐ chupasaurus

GP was using an acre as a measurement, the 2nd link is in the 200K SEK/acre range, and there are [0] plenty of offers he described.

[0] https://www.hemnet.se/bostader?by=land_area&housing_form_gro...

⬐ mclightning

Aha, you mean as "tomt". I was looking for "Gårdar/skogar", to have some forest within the lot.

⬐ progre

I believe that it's quite difficult to buy such small parcels of forest in Sweden without already owning adjacent lots if the land is "zoned" for forestry. You can "sneak" into this by buying derelict farms where the forest is included, but expect to pay more.

⬐ Cullinet

I have no idea how true this is, but my friend who claimed to have verified his research most thoroughly and was hell bent on attempting this against everyone's advice for he wasn't the outdoors man by any means, asserted the entirely legal possibility of building a cabin north of the arctic circle in Sweden and providing you could self sustain yourself out there for five consecutive winters the law would fairly automatically give you citizenship.

I thought to put this here just because it's such a romantic notion regardless and I'd love it to be true, but I fear my dear friend was never less than a true romantic soul himself and it may have been a genius line with the ladies fed up with London living...

⬐ gerikson

The requirements for Swedish citizenship are clearly spelled out here: https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...

⬐ danaliv

"You must have lived in Sweden for five years with right of residence." (Emphasis added.)

Seems there's an important detail here.

⬐ disabled

Many Americans tend to think that you can live/work/retire almost anywhere in the world, but particularly western and Northern Europe (“eastern Europe” is viewed with derision by Americans, even though once these countries become part of the European Union, they become westernized pretty fast), as long as you have a “high paying job” (that an individual can work remotely) and “are willing to pay the taxes”—-and in some cases “are willing to learn the language”.

It is quite offensive. But, it is a prime example of American imperialism/colonialism at its best, when the American empire is not only in hardcore decline, but literally crumbling, if not collapsing.

Also, I love all of the Americans in the past few days who are trashing both the European Union (who did not suspend AstraZeneca vaccinations) and the European Union countries that have suspended the AstraZeneca vaccine for a week, most likely, at the absolute longest. By the way, those EU countries made that decision independently from the EU, so maybe you should not be trashing the EU here. We also have other vaccines in our arsenal to fight this. We also trust our officials, and we have a culture of doing so. We are willing to pay taxes not only for a stable government, but a stable society.

Yes, the EU did mess up with the procurement of vaccines, but we will get through this. We have handled the pandemic better than America has (I am also American...).

Oh yeah, to the Americans reading this: the EU, and its founding and its precursor organizations were designed for “what to do after your empire fails”. I suggest Americans maybe try to learn about this. Otherwise they are going to have more of the same, as in rulers like Trump or worse.

⬐ Grustaf

Citizenship after 5 years is far from automatic, and living north of the Arctic circle doesn't help your case I'm afraid... But on the other hand, if you sustain yourself chances are you can live your whole life there without anyone noticing.

⬐ jacquesm

I've been there. There definitely would be people noticing unless you went far away from the roads. There aren't a whole lot of people living there but they're there and they are quite aware of what is going on.

⬐ Grustaf

Been where? There are definitely places in Sweden where you can spend years without being seen. The population density in Upper Norrland is 3 people per square km...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Norrland

⬐ jacquesm

Quite a bit north of the arctic circle, moving from Finland to Sweden and then back down again.

⬐ jfk13

Although depending how good you really are at the "sustain yourself" bit, you might find that "your whole life" isn't all that long.

⬐ m12k

Reminds me of Pratchett: “Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”

⬐ cpach

In Sweden, to acquire land you can contact a landowner, or a broker. For available land, see e.g. https://www.hemnet.se/bostader?by=price&housing_form_groups%...

The building codes are administrated by the municipalities. To find out more, one would visit the website of the municipality where one would like to build the house. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_municipalities_of_Swed...

⬐ hnarn

The point of my comment was not to ask how to do it, it was an observation that these presumably important steps are almost never mentioned in these types of videos.

⬐ kaffekaka

It says here - in swedish - that it is on property that his family owns.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vastmanland/han-bygger-en-...

⬐ _f3b0

'He lives in the forests north of Sala on the family land.'

⬐ hnarn

That's fine, but it doesn't give any information on all the other questions around what needs to be done before you start hammering away on your log cabin.

⬐ honkdaddy

I think it really depends on the country/province. Here in Ontario, it's pretty common to find little hunting shacks or small cabins out in Crown land. My understanding is all you need is written permission from the MNR, permission which understandably depends a lot on what you're building.

Interestingly, if you're First Nations, those laws don't apply to you and you can essentially build whatever you like on Crown Land, provided you can make the case it relates to your cultural heritage.

⬐ ficklepickle

In BC, we just discovered a small abandoned village in the woods[0]. It was not far from Vancouver. It was used by Japanese avoiding internment during WW2.

There are many places where you could build and live the rest of your life without seeing another human (all on crown land) if you are so inclined. I don't hate society quite that much yet, but I'm keeping it in my back pocket.

0 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/hidden-japanese-se...

⬐ whalesalad

Your entire comment is stipulated on the idea that it is hard to acquire land/permission. What big city do you live in?

In many parts of world it is pretty easy to acquire land out in the middle of nowhere and basically do whatever the hell you want on it.

⬐ hnarn

I never said it's "hard", I said it's glanced over, i.e. never mentioned in these types of videos despite it being (I assume) something that requires a not insignificant amount of time. And no, I don't expect it to be described in excruciating detail, I'm just saying it's usually not mentioned at all.

⬐ Johnythree

In most of Australia, land which was previously zoned as "rural living" has secretly been rezoned as "Farming" which means you cannot build a house if it is less than 100 acres. And you sure as hell cannot build without the design being approved. And then unless you can get a "Certificate of Occupancy" you can't live there.

⬐ emteycz

European countries often have minimums on what has to be allowed by the government. In my country (Czechia), a 25 square meters house without basement can be built on suitable land with only notifying the government, no approvals needed.

⬐ intricatedetail

What about trees? In some countries even if you own the land you cannot cut the trees without permission and you'd have to put every cut tree back - which means buying a similar grown tree and paying for moving it. This can easily cost millions.

⬐ madaxe_again

Yeah, here in our corner of Portugal it’s 100m2, any purpose, no permits required. We’ve just built a 45m2 log cabin, entirely manually.

⬐ drra

In Poland it's 35 square meters of footprint of a single storey building as long as the land is designated as buildable or recreational. But it has to conform to a plethora of local zoning laws making it kind of tricky. Once you fall out of notification only proces it can take a long time to receive a permit.

⬐ kuerbel

Definitely not possible in Germany just like that, there was / is a person who tried it (Marc Freuke, he was on TV quite often so I feel comfortable sharing his name) and got sued by the municipality. Building code here is already vicious, development plans are just as bad. You are not at all allowed to built on basically everything that is deemed "outside"/outskirts, there are some exceptions but a Jurte or Tipi or cabin is usually out of the way. Even if you own the land. Of course, it is a bit more complicated than that but that is the gist of it.

In essence, you will have a hard time trying to do this.

⬐ intricatedetail

In some countries if you fell a tree without permission, you have to put the equivalent tree back. Such operation could easily cost million euro to restore the forest.

⬐ swader999

A seedling costs about a dollar to grow, fifty cents to plant.

⬐ intricatedetail

The tree must be the same appearance, so this can take decades to grow and then you have to transport it without damaging its roots and then you have 50% chance it will not die. If it fails to grow you have to repeat it until it is brought to a state before cutting.

⬐ swader999

Trees make pine cones that beget other trees. Thinning a young forest is a step that is sometimes needed. Seedlings are replanted into the harvested land directly so this risk of death due to root shock isn't really an issue unless the seedlings are intentionally abused.

⬐ intricatedetail

But if you cut a mature tree it needs to be replaced with a tree of similar age, not a seedling. That's the whole point why it can be a so expensive mistake.

⬐ hnarn

The value of a seedling is not equivalent to the value of a tree.

⬐ swader999

Indeed, but five plus three does equal eight.

⬐ hindsightbias

You can do anything you want in most rural CA counties (even Sonoma and Napa) as long as it's 120 sqft or less, no permanent foundation, electric or water.

I personally found his series a bit painful to watch as he's doing it all the hard way (which is his point).

⬐ Mediterraneo10

Obviously the hard initial stuff is missing from these sorts of videos, because that isn’t glamorous. Content creators want to start from the things that will attract people's attention.

It is similar to how, for example, there are many videos for how to travel the world by bike and how you can budget for it daily, but extremely few of those videos explain that cyclists typically have to work really hard in some boring normal job for a while to save up that budget for their travels, and then the process of buying all the necessary gear can be long and frustrating as one has to compare various websites and wait for things to arrive by post. Who wants to watch that?

⬐ cgh

You are right, I have noticed this especially with the tiny house people. They build the house to save money and then park it somewhere. But where? Almost inevitably, it's family land, like a farm or something.

Other posters have noted this but Canada is almost unique because of its vast forested wilderness and sparse population. If you wanted to buy a parcel of forest somewhere and build a cabin, it wouldn't be a particularly expensive undertaking, so long as it's well away from an expensive urban area like eg the Lower Mainland of BC.

⬐ jandrese

If you are remote enough it is unlikely that anybody will ever bother you. No civil servant, no matter how dedicated, is going to hike 100km through dense wild forest to deliver a fine.

The only time you're in danger with the law is when some logging company buys the rights to the land where your cabin happens to be and you're in the way of the clearcutting. But if you're far enough from any roads even this is extremely unlikely.

⬐ monkeynotes

If you own land in the backwoods of rural Canada I doubt anyone who cares would know you've built the cabin. If there is no plumbing, power, road etc. and the cabin is under 500sq/ft and you have logging rights I can't imagine anyone has jurisdiction to oppose. Unincorporated land, no environmental impact, ownership of the property. I can't see a problem.

⬐ hnarn

> no environmental impact

How do you know if you don't bother to look it up? Many countries have national parks and entire areas where any "modification" to nature is illegal.

⬐ monkeynotes

To my knowledge you cannot own national park land in Canada. I should have said "minimal environmental impact", but yes it's probably something you should look into to make sure you aren't close to water courses or disturbing some kind of nesting area. By and large though, building a small cabin with no services in the woods is going to by definition have minimal environmental footprint if you follow common sense and do a little research.

⬐ jrochkind1

In most of the United States, you need no permit whatsoever to fell trees on private property. Yes, including clear-cutting your forest and selling it for lumber.

This is not a good thing though.

Exceptions apply in some localities, please check before cutting down all your trees.

⬐ wing-_-nuts

>This is not a good thing though.

Serious question. Why does the government have any business telling me what I can and cannot do with my own property if it does not impact others?

I'm not saying i support clearcutting, from a purely environmental and aesthetic point of view, but I really disagree with government or any other associations telling me what I can do with my own property.

⬐ lotsofpulp

It doesn’t, but it usually does impact others. Whether or not you think it’s sufficient for government intervention is obviously political, whether it be maintaining a neighborhood’s design to prop up resale value and keep out riff raft via HOA, or not letting people cut down trees for environmental or even aesthetic reasons, etc.

Almost everything we do impacts others though, in some way.

⬐ wing-_-nuts

Ah, you might have guessed I lean decidedly libertarian on the topic :^). I'm certainly with some things (esp pollution, or destruction of other's property), but I have precisely no interest in catering to someone's 'property values' or aesthetics. I'm usually ok with reasonable stuff like adhering to city codes, but I would never by a detached home with an HOA.

⬐ jrochkind1

Because the presence of trees effects others. In an urban/suburban area they effect temperature, air quality, and rainwater runoff, among other things.

In a rural area in bulk, they effect air quality and carbon capture. Also erosion and water run-off. Clear-cutting a forest completely changes the local ecology, and not for the better, in a way that is irreversible.

We all need trees, and they take many years to grow to maturity. they should not be cut down en masse capriciously. And to do so effects others.

⬐ Dirlewanger

The kid's family is also most likely loaded, otherwise he wouldn't have so much free time on his hands to dedicate to doing something like this.

⬐ fogihujy

About 70% of Sweden is covered with forests, so acquiring some land covered by trees should be fairly trivial assuming one has the money for it. An article about this particular young builder mentions he built it on land owned by his family[1].

I'm not entirely sure about Swedish regulations in regards to building permits, but based on a quick Internet search it looks like one may or may not require a permit, based on the location, size and purpose of the the log cabin, and as a rule of thumb one should check with the local authorities before starting construction. The Swedish rules seem to be more lax when the building is to be located in sparsely populated areas.

If it's anything like the rules in Finland there's probably a bunch of environmental and building codes that needs to be adhered to, but on the other hand this is a traditional build so it might be perfectly possible that he just needed to submit the plans and get someone to approve them.

[1]: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vastmanland/han-bygger-en-...

⬐ toxik

Specifically, Swedish building codes don't apply to small constructions, hence the rise of the friggebod: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friggebod

> In Sweden, a friggebod is a small house which can be built without any planning permission on a land lot with a single-family or a duplex house. It is named after Birgit Friggebo, who was the Minister for Housing in 1979 when the new type of building was allowed. The word is a portmanteau of Friggebo and bod, the Swedish word for shed.

⬐ hnarn

Both a "Friggebod" and an "Attefallshus" requires the building to be built on "a land lot with a single-family or a duplex house", as you mention, which hardly applies for a house built in the middle of the forest. While I can't be sure, I don't think land lots with houses on them are merged with kilometers of owned forest. And even if it is: there are regulations on how and where you are allowed to fell trees.

I want to clarify that I'm not saying this building is illegal, which is what some people seem to choose to read: I simply said that a large step in this process often seems to be omitted.

⬐ jk7tarYZAQNpTQa

> there are regulations on how and where you are allowed to fell trees.

If you own the land, and neither the land nor the tree (specimen or species) is protected, you should have no problem.

⬐ gerikson

Since expanded to even larger dimensions:

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attefallshus (link in Swedish)

⬐ fogihujy

Is that really relevant in this case though? The Wikipedia page you refer to specifically mentions that there has to be existing buildings on the property for those rules to apply.

⬐ gerikson

No it's not really relevant, but then neither is the Friggebod, which was the subject of the parent of my comment.

These rules are mostly for built-up areas with neighbors. The rules used to be very draconian, but during the late 70s they were liberalized.

⬐ dheera

I believe in the US you can usually build small sheds (<100 sqft) in your backyard without a permit but IANAL.

⬐ Scoundreller

Usually as an accessory structure, but things can get dicey if there isn’t a residential structure already on the property.

⬐ None

None

⬐ fogihujy

Yeah, the rules are similar in Finland (hardly surprising since the Nordic countries often try to harmonize laws), but there are specific requirements for buildings if one intends to live there permanently -- i.e. if you're building a shed in the yard then you might not require a permit, but you might need one if you build a small cottage and intend to live in it.

Regardless, it's usually a matter of documenting that the new building adheres to various standards.