HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

"Lots," eh?

Every laptop I've ever owned will run with the battery disconnected.

Except the Macbook, of course.

The simple fact of the matter is that Apple routinely makes design decisions that are not only questionable, but compromise the usable life of the device in the process. And keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

Having reduced or nonexistent performance after removing the battery was never normal. It's bad design. Period.

https://www.engadget.com/2008-11-22-macbook-and-macbookpro-s...

⬐ wtallis

You said "almost all apple idevices", which pretty clearly indicated you were talking about more than just laptops. I replied in that context.

⬐ techrat

Your argument is that iDevices like the iPod and iPhone require more stringent 'massive capacitor' power delivery with an inline battery over... more power demanding/complex devices like laptops? And other phones that had removable batteries?

Sounds like an attempt to handwave away bad design principles.

⬐ wtallis

The extent to which a device relies on the battery as a capacitor even when plugged in depends on both the peak current draw of the device, and the size of the charger.

Smaller devices like phones tend to be paired with downright tiny chargers, but modern smartphone SoCs can draw a lot of power in short bursts (cf. all the controversy about Apple trying to prevent brown-outs when operating the phone with a worn-out battery). Apple's laptops are usually paired with power bricks that roughly match the maximum sustained power draw of the laptop. Windows gaming laptops tend to ship with power bricks that are 2-3x larger than any Apple power brick.

⬐ guenthert

It's not just Apple. I can confirm that a Samsung Galaxy Note S4 will not run from its original charger on its own. A Battery is required during boot (whether to act as supply for current peaks, compensate for losses on the thin cable during such current peaks or whether the system expects to talk to the controller built into the battery, I cannot say).

> You can't "vote with your wallet".

If there's anything that will make a business listen, it's money (or lack of it). When it affects the bottom line, they are forced to listen.

Sure, I don't affect them much by myself. But everyone commenting about Apple around my presence will find out why I am not sponsoring them.

There is also the crappy hardware design, not just the privacy issues (which negate the advertising spending they made the months before). Here is what Louis Rossmann, who repairs Apple devices, says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

⬐ dredmorbius

Pretty clearly, forty-plus years of sustained warnings and criticisms[1] of increasing surveillance and security failures have failed to have any substantive influence on the industry.

It's not that the concerns aren't justified. It's that they're far too complex to be communicated and grasped by the public as a whole, and they facilitate far too much by way of immediate profit and market advantage to the vendors who will more than happily ignore the warnings.

A boycott by the vanishingly small fraction of the market which does fully grasp the issue is no threat at all.

________________________________

Notes:

1. See: https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105074933053020193

I have a 7-year old Asus laptop, the lowest price/performance I could find in 2014. Same experience. It has one faulty USB port, and the battery is getting weak.

Over its lifetime I did watch the temperature, and clean it about once every two years.

Other than that, it is only due to software slowing down that I bought a beefier desktop for work.

No returns or repairs needed. I also think Apple hardware is a joke. Check out Louis Rossmann on YouTube. I am linking one of his videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 - The horrible truth about Apple's repeated engineering failures. - Louis Rossmann

⬐ simondotau

The only difference between Apple and its competitors (Dell, Acer, Samsung, etc) is that Apple's shiny brand image makes content like Louis Rossmann's compelling. If the same treatment was applied to the likes of Dell and Acer, they'd be looking just as bad if not far, far worse than Apple.

(To be clear, the above is regarding Apple's engineering specifically, not about their business practices. I agree that Apple's competitors are generally far better at parts supply and general right-to-repair matters.)

⬐ techrat

Funny because I've never had problems with, what is commonly accepted as the lowest of the three you mentioned: Acer, like I have with Apple. I have an old Chromebook C710 that just. will. not. die. My Partner's newer Macbook only has one working USB port now. There are more Apple products in my product history graveyard than everything else. Combined.

I've long come to the conclusion that people simply treated their Apple devices better and not that they actually were higher quality or better engineered.

⬐ simondotau

Fascinating. My own experience has been exactly the opposite. Every single Apple product I've ever bought has worked perfectly for their entire useful life. My own Apple graveyard is a stack of devices in perfect working condition. Whereas I'm looking at my pile of non-Apple devices and every single one of them had to be repaired, replaced or abandoned due to hardware failures. I've had to replace numerous Lenovo tablets and the last (expensive!) Dell laptop I bought started randomly crashing upon resume from sleep.

And don't get me started on the Microsoft Surface Book. My partner (who worked at Microsoft) chose this as their work laptop. Junk. Driver problems. DRIVER PROBLEMS on MICROSOFT'S own hardware, managed by MICROSOFT'S own IT department.

I am philosophically against paying companies doing their best to screw customers over.

Check out what Louis Rossmann has to say about Apple hardware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

⬐ DangitBobby

So far my experience is that I feel much less "screwed over" by the macbooks I've had than about basically any other computer I've had (minus System76, which has been good but scratches a different itch).

The style of issues he has to deal with are stupid design on Apple part that compromises longevity and resilience. Like really retarded, easily avoidable crap. And sheer spite.

e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jahtu1_idVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVAmnV65_zw

It's like structures in earthquakes and crumble zones in cars. Flexing helps absorb impacts. That said, I've had issues with BGA chips and flexing, so it comes with problems, too.

I couldn't find him talking about flexing, but here's Rossman's take on a lot of Apple's mistakes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

Not only on pure specs. By any measure you'd like. Apple device have some of the worst build quality of the industry. Watch a guy that repairs them daily list the issues for you. I'd challenge you to show a similar list of huge design flaws of any other manufacturer. https://youtu.be/AUaJ8pDlxi8

Louis Rossmann made a video highlighting a lot of the engineering problems with Apple laptops. His whole business is about repairing Apple laptops so he has all the reasons and incentives to defend Apple and downplay their issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

⬐ stephenr

Someone making youtube videos, with > 1M subscribers has "no incentive" to put out videos that attract more viewers?

Ok sure, and the Earth is flat, Donuts are a health food, and lizard people are real.

⬐ computerex

Believe it or not, not everyone's top priority is money. There are some people who hold their ideals above money. Louis literally has made videos against YouTube and in favor of vimeo, all of his content is mirrored on vimeo, and everyone of his videos have a watermark promoting vimeo. My whole point was that he makes his videos to educate. I'm sure the extra revenue is nice but that's not his daily gig and I don't think money is the prime reason for why he makes the videos. Otherwise he wouldn't be actively driving people to look at his content on vimeo instead of YouTube.

⬐ tekknik

Perhaps he should go work for Apple hardware design then and make substantially more money than he does doing repairs. Oh wait....

⬐ hombre_fatal

> His whole business is about repairing Apple laptops so he has all the reasons and incentives to defend Apple and downplay their issues.

How does this follow? He has developed a following around posting these types of videos which seems like a pretty sweet incentive for making them.

Not to say he's being dishonest or something, it just seems like a stretch to say that some random repair guy somehow has more to gain by (A) hoping 0.000001% more people buy Apple products by forgoing these videos so that he can repair a few more Macbooks than by (B) making these popular videos that net him subscribers and attention.

⬐ computerex

He has developed a following because of his repair videos. He is an advocate for repairing your own stuff, has put out hundreds of videos teaching people board repair and has even put out an extensive guide for beginners: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1PkeO_lC5WTPScSV3ZzEE...

And he is internationally renowned for Macbook board repair and literally receives and fixes laptops from all over the world. He actively tells people to not watch his videos on YouTube and prefers Vimeo. I have no proof but I'd bet that his revenue from his YT channel is a small fraction of his overall income from his repair business and online e-store.

⬐ dkarbayev

Now imagine how many more videos and complaints would he have if he was repairing laptops from any other brand.

⬐ computerex

But he himself recommends other brands, and he recommends Lenovo ThinkPad heavily and owns one himself. For good reason too, they are amazing machines. He says that even though he makes a living off repairing Apple laptops, he'd be happy if people stopped buy Apple products because of their poor engineering and Apple's questionable conduct.

If I recall correctly, Louis Rossmann claimed official Apple repair center baked some motherboards as well. I don't have a link to exact video, but it is probably covered here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

And yes, I use Dell :)

improvements like shimming known weak BGA solder joint with a piece of shoe rubber https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaGHcBZjmWA

also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

I would not carry a macbook, too expensive, significant chance of being biten by their history a defective design[1], very difficult to upgrade or repair, etc.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

Hardware incompatibilities goes both way stuff that won't work on windows or that requires some obscure/bloated driver will work plug and play on linux. Depends on the hardware and the work put on it but the opensource people.

Many people have their first linux experience with ubuntu which is a shame seeing how this distribution is riddled with problems that are not being addressed because the distro is going to be binned in 6 months anyway and devs have to work on the next release.

I agree with you, daily usage is mostly a web browser / email client but there's also all the uncommon stuff and exotic hardware except my experience is that 70-80% of time you plug it and it just works, 10% of time it requires some web searching and meddling with installing/configuring somethins and 10% of time it will not work (85% of those are apple devices).

There's also one important thing to take into account, in 2010 Mac were repairable and serviceable, since 2012 repairability of Mac is abysmal and consistently get the worst score on fixit. The long list of Apple engineering failures[1] adds to the idea that getting Mac just to be able to run OSX is not as good as it was in 2010.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

⬐ slavik81

I have had occasional issues with Ubuntu, but differences between distros feel minor in comparison to the problems that initially coloured my perception.

My first experience with Linux was in the university computer lab. I just needed to quickly send an email. I logged in, and I couldn't figure out how to do anything. Not even log out. After asking a random other student for help, a group of people came to my aid. Turns out the desktop environment was actually broken, because the IT staff had configured it wrong. One of the other students figured out how to open a shell without using any menus and he logged me out. I decided not to use those computers again.

My second experience with Linux was on a remote terminal at my job. It was awful. Nothing worked correctly. I now realize that whoever had set up my account had done a bad copy/paste/edit job from somebody else's dotfiles, but at the time I just assumed that's how Linux was. I figured the misconfigured tcsh shell with broken autocomplete that they gave me was normal, because I had never seen anything different before. The oddly configured, licenseless RHEL desktop they gave me reinforced the idea that everything is hard on Linux.

I had an incredibly negative opinion of Linux at this point. Every interaction had shown me that Linux was a confusing mess of garbage. Then I installed Ubuntu on my desktop. It was easy and everything worked million times better. Later, I tried Fedora and CentOS and the same was true there. At that point, I realized that Linux wasn't broken and hard to use by default. It was IT staff that was ruining it.

Louis Rossmann, a highly respected and well-known unauthorized Apple repairman in Manhattan, NYC, explains the problems with Apple product engineering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

⬐ bunnycorn

> Louis Rossmann, a highly respected

No, he is an Apple hater and constant liar.

Also, he is an ignorant fool that pretends he knows anything about Apple.

He also instructs his audience to go to Apple-related communities to fill everything with Apple hating posts.

If you see his videos's comments, they are full of people hating on Apple.

Louis Rossman is an hate machine, that says that Apple puts chips on their computers just to break them after 3 years, "that's when AppleCare runs out, he says".

Louis Rossman, takes advantage of the lawless country that the United States is, and his friends at YouTube profit from that (he makes about $300K/year from his Apple-batting videos).

⬐ jzr

I wouldn't be surprised if Louis was an APPLE engineer. Great channel. Cool way to get to know how a New Yorker thinks.

⬐ theonemind

I've seen this one. The video in the link above has the name "The horrible truth about Apple's repeated engineering failures." Rossmann's dislike of Apple comes through, but he gives verifiable facts and, in my opinion, makes a really convincing case that Apple engineers hardware with poor reliability, falling short of matching industry quality and engineering standards (while, of course, charging more.)

As for my own thoughts on how they do this, they really create a premium look and feel, which sells products. Less visible aspects take time to come to light, and you have the opportunity to put some spin on it and obfuscate numbers. Obviously, it works amazingly well in practice.

When people say "you can't judge a book by its cover", I think having an ugly cover with good insides comes to mind first (perhaps because books have much more meat than the cover.) On the flip-side, you can have a great cover on bad insides.

In that video, Rossmann details some substandard first-party Apple refurbishing for issues, and how they time and place recalls, extended warranties, etc. for minimum impact to Apple at consumer expense. The facts, without Apple spin, laid out plainly, really show a manipulative, anti-consumer company with a completely contrary facade, in my opinion.

⬐ bunnycorn

> Rossmann's dislike of Apple comes through, but he gives verifiable facts

No, he doesn't.

He is a liar.

⬐ theonemind

Any specific examples?

⬐ bunnycorn

Yes.

How many do you want?

Here, he said that Apple puts a chip to break MacBooks after 3 years.

https://youtu.be/1AcEt073Uds?t=1m

Here, he says that "Apple" (actually a Customs office) sent a letter to him to pay for batteries that were legitimate, later, on Reddit, he admitted he bought fake batteries from China that had Apple logos (and therefore, should be, as they did) caught by the customs (because saying otherwise would get him in jail), his friends at Reddit, deleted the comments, but there are still copies of what he said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...

Also, in his video, he says that Apple makes products "vintage" or "obsolete" after 4 or 5 years.

The newest "vintage" Apple product in late 2018, is from 2011:

https://support.apple.com/HT201624

⬐ 2RTZZSro

Chinese sellers are often unscrupulous and liars. Louis Rossmann instructed the sellers to remove the logo and they did not, as they could not care less about spending effort doing what the customers wants since it means they won't make more money. Yes, they are that short sighted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXQnyWRSSg

⬐ bunnycorn

Chinese sellers know what their costumers want. And that is an Apple logo, so third party repairmen can say it's genuine.

I've owned several dozen Apple products, iPods, iPhones, iPads, from XSans/XServers, Cubes, Minis, maxed out Macbook Pros and a dozen iMacs, and no the experience is not atypical for Apple. Many people I know have problems with bad iPhone and MacBookPro Wifi reception. This development iMac Pro I'm writing this on feels slow, often has a beach ball and crashes randomly. The 27 iMac before this had fan problems from the start.

Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=526s

Louis Rossmann, a well known advocate for right-to-repair and a repair shop owner has a lot to say about Apple's build quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

His videos are a great rabbit hole to go down, if you are interested in laptop repair methods. He knows his stuff.

Apple has been making hardware with sub par durability for quite some time. The only things they made more durable have all been at the expense of repairability. The whole bendgate thing? Yup, apple actually went against best practice and stopped using proper underfill. The result? The touch-ic chip came off. Who would have guessed that a bendy phone without underfill would have flexion damage? Everybody. Even apple themselves, in official, leaked documents.

Apple has been extremely successful at denying problems up until there is a class action lawsuit. Then they silently release a pretty hostile repair program with the words "a small percentage of iDevices ...".

I used to be the biggest apple fanboy, but after having not one, but two macbooks fail on me was more than I was willing to stand. The last time I had to chose: leave the device to them in an official repair programme and have it wiped OR saving the data on it and void any apple repair programme (they later changed this policy though). Why? Because some sort of catch-22 where they would not do data recovery on a device with a faulty logic board (onto which they had soldered the SSD!) and the fix was a new logic board with a new SSD with the old logic board and SSD sent away for refurbishment. Think different!

Don't take my words for it. Take this repair guys words for it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=0s&list=PLkVbIsA...

> repairing with quality

relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=703s

Edit: this actually became a bit off topic..

I say this as an old apple fanboy. The apple products are by far the best privacy wise, but I recommend against them anyway. I like Mac os, but feel I can't pay apple any more money.

I have repaired enough phones and computers to recommend people to not use apple. Unless you there is a class action lawsuit they won't extend warranty, even for obviously faulty products.

The last 2 years I have fixed more than 5 broken macbooks that Apple refused to fix for less than $400 with 10 minute solder jobs, and I'm just a hobbyist helping friends. Two of them were fixing issues that Apple had already "fixed" by doing what could be called the worst solder jobs of the century (one was actually just using a rubber pad to push a chip in place instead of doing a proper resolder. According to the guy linked later in this post this was apples official fix :( :( :( ...)

Don't take my word for it, though:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=0s&index=3&list=...

⬐ duxup

I really haven't had much better support on my boot loop 5x... granted I love the 5x's size and form factor.

⬐ bjoli

Manuy manufacturers have followed apples lead (soldered SSDs and batteries and devices that won't open).

I wouldn't go for those devices either. The Nexus 5 (not s. I don't know that one) is very easy to open and replace parts in (at least as far as phones go),but finding someone that can properly diagnose it and fix it can be hard.

⬐ duxup

I duno, it's not like android devices were known for long warranties and service before apple... many were lucky to get a major firmware update at all...

⬐ bjoli

Of course not, but for bigger brands and popular models repair shops can actually keep official parts in-store, something that Apple don't allow (even for apple stores).

I am not saying that andoid is all roses, but many devices are still realpairable even though things are going in the wrong direction.

When an iPhones warranty is up, apple has been trying their hardest to make fixing your device impossible.

The truth is that this is hardly a unique case - most Apple laptops released in the past 10 years have had serious hardware design flaws[1]. In this case it's simply a particularly noticeable/frequent issue.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

On the other hand, Apple's design mistakes have proven extraordinarily disappointing and costly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8). That type of performance with a 40 times more expensive product could decimate their offshore savings in years.

You can get a macbook with LTE? Also designing everything yourself isn't all roses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&t=1279s

I was, once, excited about the prospects of an iCar...back when I still was a believer in the cult of Apple. Then I watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

I would never trust my life to an Apple product, even if it has rounded corners (OMG!!) and they offer avocado, mauve, ecru, and navajo (m___f__ing!!!) white color options... I think different(ly?) now.

⬐ XalvinX

after watching that video make sure to read some of the comment section...the anti-apple sentiment is strong and growing, to be sure.

They will fix it eventually in their own way, as almost always after losing class action lawsuit they release info saying 'some keyboards' and 'in specific conditions', for 'some users' and so on. Then replacement will be $175. But who else to say it better as my favourite Apple basher Louis Rossman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 (see description below video if you want tl;dr)

Many people report X1 to be great MBP replacement (I have mid 2014 MBP 13" retina - couldn't be happier and 2017 MBP 15" with s*it strip - well keyboard is awful as well as this touch strip) and from using X1 for a week and from input from people @ work those are not that great either. First of all fan noise and it's rpms it's very annoying, screen quality and resolution (after using MBP with retina) is just horrible, touchpad is just rudimentary - works but can be better.

Couldn't agree more after watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 with detailed schematics and explanations.

⬐ mboto

I think I started watching Louis Rossmann from a Hacker News link. He's got some really interesting videos on various issues with Apple products. Really interesting to watch.

Apple iPhone: mostly works as long as you agree with the Apple way of doing things. No alternative web browser for you, no expandable memory, no 3.5mm jack if you want a recent device, no full control over your device. Very limited choice of hardware from a single supplier. Expensive hardware, this mostly related to the issue of there only being a single supplier. Hardware also with well-documented problems which tend not to be solved [1].

You need to trust Apple. What makes you think you can trust them? Remember that Google started life with 'do no evil' as their motto, people tended to trust them as well. Lately, not so much anymore.

If you don't feel these issues are valid or think they don't matter Apple can be an option but it does not make sense to portray them as the solution which 'just works'.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

This video is a good one.

⬐ locusm

Videos like that and personal experience with MBP's since 2009 have seen my wallet go elsewhere.

Take a look at what someone who repairs them on a regular basis says about Apple's quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 .

⬐ bee_vik

The saddest part about this is that it's the opposite of what Apple originally stood for. With the Apple II line, Apple released schematics and extraordinarily detailed technical reference manuals. Everything about the inner workings of those computers was an open book. Their motherboards were covered in chip sockets so you could replace nearly every component, and peripheral cards could be slotted in at will. It was a hobbyist's dream computer.

Granted, computers have changed a lot in the intervening years, but it still makes me sad to compare what Apple was to what Apple became.

⬐ threeseed

Apple's hardware is largely a combination of other companies products. So if you want the schematics for your CPU, GPU, RAM, Display etc ask Intel, Nvidia/AMD, SanDisk, LG.

If you want upgradeable hardware then buy the Mac Pro since it was the model designed for that purpose. Otherwise you need to understand that upgradeability comes at the expense of thickness and weight since those clips/sockets take up valuable space. And people that want upgradeability simply aren't Apple's market. Go buy something else instead.

⬐ Lio

The current “Tash Can” Mac Pro is not really upgradable. It has proprietary GPU and SSD interfaces and no other PCI slots.

You might be able to purchase a replacement SSD for someone like OWC or upgrade to the higher spec Apple sourced GPU if you bought a low end model but Apple is not expecting you to do this.

You can update the RAM or use external thunderbolt peripherals but that’s a long way from the older “cheese grater” Mac Pro.

If I was to guess I would say that this deliberate removal of upgrade path is actually about design for reliability.

If you remove the upgrades you remove the chance of static damage or use of faulty parts. Also the case is easier to manufacture and more robust because it’s less complex.

I think that’s the real reason the SSD is now soldered in the current MacBook Pro but it’s just a guess.

⬐ 20after4

If they didn't solder the SSD you could buy their smallest one and then drop in a huge SSD at 1/4 the price apple would charge for the upgraded storage. Apple systems are very expensive for the base model but where they REALLY tax you is anything with upgraded specs.

⬐ digi_owl

The Apple II was the Woz Apple. Woz basically has to threaten to walk out, and leave the company without a products, to get Jobs to allow the Apple II to have expansion ports.

The Mac etc is what Jobs wanted. A sealed beige box that only did what Jobs envisioned it to do (produce a GUI and look good).

And yet variants of the Apple II kept outselling the Mac all the way until the II was unceremoniously dropped.

⬐ kalleboo

> And yet variants of the Apple II kept outselling the Mac all the way until the II was unceremoniously dropped

Although that was mostly due to price, not expandability (the Mac II with all its slots and RAM expandability was introduced 6 years before the Apple IIe was discontinued)

⬐ jonhendry18

"And yet variants of the Apple II kept outselling the Mac all the way until the II was unceremoniously dropped."

That was mostly school purchases.

⬐ inteleng

And people outside Wall Street worship Jobs, using him as the yardstick for good tech leaders. What gives, I don't know.

⬐ digi_owl

Because he was the Barnum of tech basically...

⬐ Lio

Well Jobs was a complicated man and I don’t want to make excuses for other parts of his life but...

He was also responsible for NeXT. That company was about trying to make the power of Unix more mainstream.

Modern Macs are far more decended for NeXT computers than they are from the original baige box >= system 9 Macs.

⬐ digi_owl

To me making use of _nix but writing their own UI layer suggests that the _nix side was just a convenient way to get the base layer of the OS basically for free.

This in much the same way as Linux use used just about everywhere these days, hiding behind a myriad of custom UIs.

⬐ kalleboo

Steve Jobs was also trying to get UNIX on the Mac before he was kicked out of Apple in 1985 http://lowendmac.com/2013/apples-bigmac-project-failed-precu...

⬐ Lio

I’m not sure it’s that simple.

When Jobs founded NeXT in 1985 there was no standard GUI layer for Unix. What you’re referring to as the “base layer” was all of Unix.

X was only started in 1984 I believe and Sun also has a competing incompatible alternative at the time too.

It wasn’t at all clear that the X Windowing System would win out as the dominant implementation.

⬐ woolvalley

Apple is a BMW or Mercedes of computing. And they definitely have their issues, but they definitely have their plus sides.

So far apple's engineering mistakes haven't annoyed me that much. The fragility of the butterfly keyboard is probably their worse one yet. Makes me scared of buying a new macbook at this point.

⬐ agumonkey

Coupling a user facing fragile device with rivets is still mindblowing to me. I gasped when I saw L.R. video about that.. couldn't believed it.

The market has fever, and is going full retard.

⬐ busterarm

Honestly, I will never buy another Apple product again.

I hope my iPhone lasts for many years, because I don't like Android... :(

⬐ agumonkey

let's all go back to nokia 3310 2018 :)

⬐ camillomiller

Repairs are such a small dent in Apple finances that thinking they engineer their replacement programs for profit is simply silly. I have heard that point many times. They engineer them to maximize the process efficiency, and there’s always leeway. The real story here is this: Apple wants to control the product completely, and that includes getting rid of long terms loyal partners such Apple Authorized shops. They are all pretty disgruntled and disenchanted by the company for that. Zealots turned haters are usually the meanest haters.

⬐ ianai

I wish modern tech wasn’t all about pushing the little mom and pop shops out of existence. But it is happening to more products than not - this isn’t an Apple creation. If anything, it’s a creation of wallstreets drive for profits at all costs.

⬐ pcr0

The 2013 Macbook Air was the first and only Apple laptop I owned. It's still incredibly reliable and (the hardware) is a pleasure to use.

I needed a new laptop with more RAM/storage/CPU but I was utterly disappointed in their 2017 MBP lineup. Switched to Linux on the X1 Carbon and I haven't looked back since. I do miss things like the touchpad, Preview app and other Mac-only software, but not enough to put up with their product flaws.

⬐ geuis

Couple things here. First, that isn’t Louis Rossman’s voice. That’s either an employee or a paid voice actor. Second, I paid Rossman to try fixing a bad MBP board a couple of years ago because I watched his series and he seems like he would go the extra mile. The board ended up not being fixed.

I and my family have bought Apple products since I was a kid (over 30 years). I have always found their hardware to be extremely reliable and to age well. Yeah I pay a premium but only need to make those purchases every 3-4 years. Laptops, desktops, phones etc.

When my laptop board had a problem, it was already well out of warranty. The Apple store tech still took the time to run diagnostics on it tried to find a way to get it covered. But beer counts as water damage so that was the end of it.

I will complain that the price for a replacement board ($1200) was a bit steep for a machine from mid 2013 but I know it would have been well tested and reliable. I ended up buying a replacement board from OWC for about $700 that’s worked fine.

Rossman constantly rants about Apple hardware for years. Take what he says with a huge grain of salt. Especially when he’s paying someone else to say them.

⬐ hasperdi

I think that's Louis Rossman narating.

Also watch Linus' take on Rossman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE&feature=youtu.be...

⬐ nicky0

Not the Linus I was expecting.

⬐ disk0

First, that isn’t Louis Rossman’s voice. That’s either an employee or a paid voice actor.

That's him talking, there's daily live streams of him ranting and repairing that make that obvious. I do know he has a history in audio engineering and has multiple mics he uses for different situations, it seems to me the differences I hear in the videos below come down to capture/processing differences in his live capture and edited setup:

Livestream from this month https://youtu.be/WZK_rHzdTaA?t=85

"The Truth About Apple's Engineering" https://youtu.be/AUaJ8pDlxi8

⬐ legitster

I would love to see a comparison against my beloved ThinkPad and see if there is legitimacy to my preference.

OS preferences aside, I much prefer the ruggedized plastics and exposed seams of the ThinkPad to the metal unibodies. I'm a function-should-define-form kind of guy, and am deeply skeptical of aesthetics-first designs.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I have talked to various sysadmins who all tell me that Macbooks on their networks have very high failure rates. They realistically cannot plan on a Macbook surviving 2-3 years. And when they do fail, they fail in unexpected, catastrophic ways.

⬐ Lio

Anecdotally, I’ve either bought Macs for my business or contracted with companies providing Macs since 2006 and until the current crop of MacBook Pros I’ve heard of very few issues and even fewer that weren’t fixed quickly under warrantee.

My only issue was a faulty power supply on my 1,1 MacBook Pro and it was fixed, for free, after the warrantee had expired.

But that’s anecdotes for you, not worth very much compared to actual stats.

I’ve heard more than a few stories from people about how they’ve repaired their own Thinkpad. When I hear them though I just think, your laptop failed and you had to repair it yourself.

My current MacBook Pro is a late 2013 model, it seems as good as the day I bought it bar a few scratches.

I don’t want my laptop be easily repairable, I _need_ it have a bathtub graph of reliability and not go wrong in the first place.

As a counter point I know two people with emoji bar MacBook Pros and both had issues with dust in the keyboard so I haven’t upgraded.

⬐ pritambaral

> When I hear them though I just think, your laptop failed and you had to repair it yourself.

They could have gotten the laptops repaired via Lenovo. There was nothing stopping them from getting that done within the warranty period. Exactly like Apple.

> I _need_ it have a bathtub graph of reliability and not go wrong in the first place

Cool. That's you. But electronics do go bad, including Apple devices. And sometimes people's requirements and abilities change, and they need larger storage. The sensible solution to that is not "buy whole new device".

⬐ aetherspawn

The build quality of my late 2013 MacBook Pro is a lot better than that of my early 2018 MacBook Pro with touch bar. When I picked it up in cantilever with one hand it felt less flexy. The latter has seams that don’t line up and such around the touch bar, and the fingerprint scanner seems to have seams from manufacture around the edge. Keyboard scrapes every now and then and the bottom of the laptop picks up dirt from the work area and makes an awful sound when you slide it around (with the old under-profile, I didn’t notice this).

Nethertheless, the new machine feels a LOT lighter and, as such, I forgive the engineering team who had their focus elsewhere.

I just wish they’d redesign the speakers so that you can’t tell when tiny skin flakes fall in the microscopic holes (which you can’t get out .. at all). It’s very obvious when a hole is missing due to the pattern of the holes.

⬐ natch

My theory is he is butthurt because he charges people for repairs, and Apple does such a good job (sometimes charging little or not charging anything) that it takes away business for him.

Yes some people get given huge quotes for repairs from Apple but the details matter. If you hear a horror story, ask whether there was AppleCare, ask whether the item was purchased from Apple either online at apple.com or at an Apple store, and ask whether there was accidental damage.

Little known thing I was told by a tech at an Apple store, that I doubt Rossmann would tell you: most Apple repairs have a per-model price cap for parts costs for repairs when repaired by Apple. Like around $400 max for a MBP, no matter how much hardware is being repaired at one time. This would not include repairs due to negligence, obviously (water, dropping, run over by a car, etc.) So third party shops can't compete... I guess Rossmann can't touch this kind of low price himself, as he would have to pay the full repair tech price for genuine Apple parts if he wants to use them, and this probably pisses him off no end. Labor charges do not have a cap, but Apple repair works quickly so these charges are low. And Apple treats you even better if you have AppleCare.

But, to get the best care from Apple, there are a few practices to follow:

1) Always buy direct from an Apple store -- this gives the techs there more leeway in their systems with what they can do for you, presumably because they have a full lifetime record of where exactly the hardware came from and what parts exactly it was made with (e.g. LG versus Samsung display, etc.), unlike when you buy from, say, Best Buy.

2) Avoid third party repairs, as afterward your device is basically tainted as far as Apple is concerned, and rightly so, because who knows WTF was done to it.

3) Buy AppleCare. You won't always use it, but the times you do, it often more than pays for itself and all the other AppleCare SKUs you paid for.

4) Get repairs done early. Apple stops repairing things after 5 years (even if you're willing to pay) in some states, and after 7 years in other states. Not sure if this difference is because of legal requirements, or proximity to Apple repair depots. In California, which has a repair depot, the limit is 7 years.

No company is perfect. You can look back into the past and find a long line of products that needed improvement. You can even look at current products and see that there are things that need improvement. That's just how things work.

⬐ jonhendry18

You can ask for a flat-rate depot repair. They send your machine out, but it's considerably cheaper.

⬐ woolvalley

Doesn't each major device come with a serial number, and from that they can determine which parts were used with it?

Some of this stuff is pretty bad. They could of fixed some issues with a few more pennies into putting in better capacitors, but they don't do it for future manufacturing runs? A lot of the issues seem to have a theme of power management issues for the most part.

⬐ natch

>Doesn't each major device come with a serial number

Yes but that doesn't rule out the data and chain of delivery being better for store-sold devices.

⬐ joneholland

I would gladly switch from MacBooks if anyone came even close to the same touchpad experience.

I keep trying the latest Lenovo’s and they still have garbage touch pads.

⬐ vbezhenar

Retina MacBook Pro 2012 is the worst laptop I've ever saw. Extremely bad quality, it had bad SSD from the start (no problems there except I had to wait a month for repair) and it started to fall apart after two years of usage. It's barely usage now. Thankfully I was smart enough to buy a PC for half a price and got twice of performance.

⬐ None

None

⬐ karmakaze

Each new thing I learn about Apple paints a coherent picture. Not one of incompetence, but one of 'intentional obsolesce'. Whether this is in the hardware failure rates, inability or difficulty to upgrade or repair, or how each software update makes the device less functional. In the case of the self slowing battery dates didn't even require an OS update it was on a death slowdown timer. The leaked internal memos illustrate that these are not accidents.

Apple is great at something--just not quite what they portray.

⬐ Hydraulix989

Louis Rossmann is one of the most underappreciated YouTubers

⬐ patrickg_zill

I was talking about a month ago with a Mac consultant; he has been doing ONLY Macs for 20+ years.

Starting with the touchbar laptops, he noticed a decline in longevity. He had his clients that saw these problems, sell off all post-2015 MacBook Pros and buy only good refurb/used 2015 or so, MBP. No problems after he did that.

⬐ jonhendry18

The recent new keyboard's keys are known to be easily rendered unusable due to a crumb getting into it. Repair is expensive (may require replacing the whole upper case?)

That may be part of what he's seeing.

⬐ bitmapbrother

The BGA rework on those warranty serviced boards was pretty damning.

they BBQ it to a point where it's only going to last 2-6 months and then fail again

https://youtu.be/AUaJ8pDlxi8?t=11m45s

⬐ thought_alarm

Quick, the mods are asleep.

⬐ __phantom

At this point, I'll only use an Apple product if my work pays for it.

⬐ codeCatalyst

me too. As a principle, I will never pay for such over-priced marketing hype. Their products are mediocre at best.

⬐ baxtr

The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that Apple has screwed them”. That sounds odd to me. I know a lot of people who own Apple devices and a lot of them had problems. But no own ever said that “Apple screwed” them. In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner.

No company is perfect. Apple makes mistakes. But in my perception they deal well with their mistakes and are not shy to admit.

⬐ dschuetz

> I know a lot of people who own Apple devices and a lot of them had problems. But no own ever said that “Apple screwed” them.

That's the point he makes in this video. People pay $2k+ and still have to pay for repairs of greatly designed and poorly engineered products. Seriously, that's a commonly known practice called rip-off. I simply cannot understand people's minds defending Apple's engineering. It's an incomprehensible cognitive dissonance.

Apple designs great products, sure, why not. But when engineering decisions have to take a seat behind design decisions? The fanboys see just the great product and irrationally defend any criticism on bad engineering. Sorry, that's just silly.

⬐ willtim

Often it's the ideas that are the cause of the problems, for example: magsafe required an extremely thin cable leading to fray (85 UK pounds for a new adapter), or the "magic mouse" that required raising ones right finger in order to left click. The new super-shallow keyboard is the latest flawed idea. Luckily my wife hasn't got one of those.

⬐ dschuetz

You see, that's my point.

When products are super-designed to the extent that excellent (thus very expensive) engineering is required to make them last longer, Apple does an excellent job keeping the engineering budget low. While keeping the design strategy constant: thinner, lighter, finer.

At some point Apple hits a breaking point (those in the videos). Their handling of the problems is highly questionable, because they chose design over good and lasting engineering and refuse to take the responsibility. Apple products are throw-away products nowadays. Yet they refuse to admit even that (they built even a recycling robot for their devices!).

⬐ coldtea

>The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that Apple has screwed them”.

Well, there's always the relative amount of value they get out of Apple's products vs the amount of how much Apple screwed them.

The balance can still come out positive. I've used Windows for 25+ years, Macs for 15 or so, Linux for 18-19 years -- and still use those things everyday (Linux professionally and for home use).

The productivity I get out of an OS X box trumps having to pay $300 to have some faulty part replaced that Apple should have replaced themselves anyway for a $3.5K laptop (which has happened to me a couple of times in the 15+ years I've used Apple laptops).

That said, I do both programming in UNIX like environment, and video editing, and write music (as a hobby) with DAWs and such. Someone who just needs a terminal or Word or just Premiere etc might be able to get by with another platform.

And of course I've been burned by IBM BS hard disks (and HDs from many other manufactures), AMD CPUs, and tons of other brands and third party products.

⬐ f00_

I haven't actually read the article, just thought you'd be interested in Mariana Mazzucato's discussion of Apple in The Entrepreneurial State "which argues that the United States' economic success is a result of public and state funded investments in innovation and technology, rather than a result of the small state, free market doctrine that often receives credit for the country's strong economy."

I just think it's crazy how much public subsidy went into creating Apple, and yet they're still seeking tax havens like Ireland

socialize the losses, privatize the profits i guess

⬐ tonyedgecombe

What Apple losses have been socialized?

⬐ ric2b

All the research they get for free that is funded with public money might be one.

⬐ y4mi

he's talking about infrastructure (streets, trains, water, ...) and similar.

all the stuff you're supposed to pay taxes for...

⬐ tonyedgecombe

I understood the first part but that isn't the same as socialising losses. This isn't the same as bailing out a failing bank because it's too big to fail.

⬐ legitster

Selection bias - he only sees the failures.

⬐ iforgotpassword

he's not apple only, so he can compare to non-apple devices people bring in.

⬐ coldtea

Non-Apple devices come in tiny production runs.

Dell e.g. has 100 different models each year -- each representing a small sliver of the overall units sold. So if a problem surfaces with one, it doesn't matter as much to as many customers.

Plus, other companies don't push the envelope and move to new technologies as fast, or use as specialized parts. They just throw some off the shelve components as is in their branded box -- with Apple half of the box components is custom.

⬐ Nullabillity

> Dell e.g. has 100 different models each year -- each representing a small sliver of the overall units sold. So if a problem surfaces with one, it doesn't matter as much to as many customers.

So Dell does a much better job at mitigating failure. Sounds like Apple has a lot to learn here.

> Plus, other companies don't push the envelope and move to new technologies as fast, or use as specialized parts. They just throw some off the shelve components as is in their branded box -- with Apple half of the box components is custom.

Specialized parts are a liability, not an asset. How do you replace a broken component that only Apple makes, which they refuse to sell separately?

⬐ coldtea

>So Dell does a much better job at mitigating failure. Sounds like Apple has a lot to learn here.

Or, you know, it's a tradeoff for a more streamline product line, that's less confusing to users, and can pack more for more general cases.

>Specialized parts are a liability, not an asset. How do you replace a broken component that only Apple makes, which they refuse to sell separately?

It's almost as if that is also a tradeoff, between having unique features that others don't and more control of integration, vs the ability to replace commodity parts.

What part of the idea of tradeoffs don't people understand?

As for whether people agree to said tradeoffs, well, being the #1 company is units and profit in the world, means people want what's on offer.

P.S. Not to mention that in fact in the past Apple was even more exclusive with their parts (e.g. PowerPC vs Intel).

⬐ Shikadi

No, other companies push the envelope. Touch screens and 360 hinges and fingerprint readers to name a few. Plus most motherboards in laptops are custom designed as well. Dell always designs the cooling system differently to try and be quiet but cheap for their desktops, I could go on but I'd rather just close by saying Apple isn't the only one who uses custom parts. Off the shelf to custom ratio is probably pretty close to the other big players.

⬐ camillomiller

Although I think the video has a point for some cases, I think you’re also right.

My selection bias, for example, is the opposite.

I had my iMac 27” repaired three times in 2013 for a SINGLE faulty pixel. Under Apple Care (which was less than 10% the cost of the machine when I bought it), a technician was coming to my place with a new screen and replace it on the spot. Amazing service. Unfortunately I kept on getting a screen replacement with faulty pixel (apparently not so rare in such a big screen, plus the replacement part was probably reconditioned) so the technician kept on coming from 200km away with a new part. In the end it took three shots to get the replacement right. I’ve read how much each intervention cost to Apple in the repair bills he technician would leave to me as a receipt: 700$ each (560€). Never paid a dime. Make it times three and you’ll find out Apple spent almost as much as the cost of my iMac to get the repair right.

In 2016 my ex-gf the screen of my iPhone by dropping a mignon of vodka on it from the kitchen shelf. Screen was destroyed completely and I feared for the repairability of the phone itself. I brought it the Apple Store in Berlin for a regular paid screen or phone replacement. The Genius stopped me as I was telling him what happened and inspected the phone: “do you see this half-moon thing inside the front camera? It’s an hardware problem and we have a replacement program for that. Your phone is eligible for free replcement”. 10 minutes after I walked out with a brand new (reconditioned) iPhone, as If I chose the full replacement, without forking out a single dime. I told about the replacement program to all my friend with an iPhone 6s or 6. I think at least three of them got a new phone out of an old one, no matter how used or fucked up their phone was. One of them had dropped it and the phone screen was barely holdin together as well.

Does this make me an Apple shill?

⬐ Nullabillity

So Apple uses crappy screens (when was the last time you found a dead pixel in an external monitor or TV?) and gives fake receipts after their warranty "repairs" (presumably those are "this is what you would have paid", not "this is what we paid"). Still doesn't sound particularly great to me

⬐ camillomiller

You just made up your own reality. The "receipt" was just a slip working as a proof to the client that the repair has been made. Technically in Italy you have to always give a receipt to the client, reporting how much they paid. If it's zero, you have to clearly state that and motivate it. Example:

repair: 700$ subsidized cost by Apple: 700$ Grand Total: 0

The consumer gets complete transparency and has a proof of work in his hands. Nothing to do with an Apple decision. And even if it were, how would that be bad?

⬐ Nullabillity

I'm fine with a receipt being given for the performed services. My beef is with trusting the prices on it. The price you pay for a repair has little-to-nothing to do with the actual cost of the repair.

Of course, things would be different if they actually itemized what they bought, from where, at what price, what the technician's wage was, and so on.

⬐ ksec

I have never heard a single good case of Apple services in Japan or HK.

Most of those amazing services story are from US, few from EU.

⬐ camillomiller

First story was Italy, not exactly a Tier 1 country for Apple. Second story was Germany.

⬐ agumonkey

It's a complex case.

L.R. is probably especially disappointed by the luxury price. But apart from that, I'm sure all other manufacturers are as bad as Apple to deal with failures. Actually, I'd bet a dollar that most of them don't give a crap.. (the nvidia gpu problem affected everybody, and they all refused to repair most machines). Their machine are either covered a bit, and a replaced quickly or people just fall off warranty and will by another packardbell~ machine on deal at the mall.

We'd have to see how the pro lines are handled (I never had a pro hp and dell machine so I cant say, but it's possible they're quicker to repair it.[1]

On the other hand, Apple has the magic touch... and it's not all fluff, it's only partly fluff, and still above the magic threshold, that's why people still root for them.

The vertical integration is felt when you use it, it's so much leaner than most windows machines. They give you a little piece of tech art, and not some plastic gizmo. They catter to a lot of details other manufacturers don't. Kinda like mercedes vs tesla. Lots of people complained about bits of comfort that are surely not important, but this is the extra mile that people are paying for.

I knew a guy who was anti apple (walled garden, proprietary etc), he touched an ipad and grunted, asked him why he was angry, "it's so much better than everything else" he said sadly. I was playing with motorola flagship android 3 tablet that was released quite some time after the ipad IIRC, yet everything lagged even for basic camera usage.. Users notice that quickly.

[1] also, having dismantled a few printers, I've seen how pro lines have way more thoughtful design. It's paradoxically a much cheaper product to make, because it needs fewer parts and are so easy to fix.

⬐ ekianjo

> In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner.

Did you watch the video in full? The examples of Apple screwing its customers are numerous.

⬐ rajacombinator

They have generations of mbps they shipped with faulty fry-prone gpus. (Amongst other horrific screwups.) They get a pass because iPhones look nice.

⬐ digi_owl

And having sold the "owners" of their products on the idea that owning Apple makes them "special".

⬐ coldtea

It seems it's the "owners" of other products that need to remind people how special they are for not owning Apple products.

And that when non-Apple stuff represents like 80% of the PC market. Such "non conformity". Stick it to the man!

⬐ coldtea

>They get a pass because iPhones look nice.

And also because of the whole, first such device of its class available, Android took a year to even emerge, first to create a huge app market that's not crap (like Windows mobile of yore, Palm, and Java ME apps), and so on things...

⬐ None

None

⬐ lern_too_spel

RCA made the first mass produced TV set. That doesn't mean RCA panels today get a pass. Apple's devices have been eclipsed by better alternatives for years now.

⬐ mediocrejoker

I think all technology products have a certain percentage of devices that will fail prematurely.

I think a lot of people by Apple products because when their device fails they can take it back to a store run by the same people who manufactured and sold it to them to get it serviced.

⬐ detaro

All professional-type laptops have professional support infrastructure though, doesn't matter if it's Apple, HP, Dell or Lenovo, I'll find an authorized repair place in the closest bigger city. If anything, Apple falls out of line negatively since they don't do much in the way of on-site repairs.

⬐ iforgotpassword

> In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner.

In fact, many get an ok repair for a trivial problem being charged a fortune, while just as many simply dont, because apple stores have very strict rules what they're allowed to repair and what not.

my wife had a sim card stuck in her iphone 4 or 5 once. they took the phone, returned after 20 minutes and said they couldnt fix it and offered a ridiculous discount if she'd buy a new iphone instead. she declined and we took it to some shady local repair shop. the guy took it into his back office and returned after 5 minutes with the card removed. charged 25 bucks.

and i get why people compare apple to religion. that fucking apple store was built like a temple, you had these superior 'geniuses' running around, an overly fancy waiting area. i see how it gives apple fans their fix making them willing to pay anything. it was the first and only time i set foot in one of their stores.

⬐ Washuu

Apple screwed me. It took seven years to get my 2007 Mac Pro repaired properly. It was a common issue with the Radeon graphics cards being defective. They went down their typical deny for eternity route, law suit, and finally offer to replace the parts well after the units were obsolete.

Apple screwed me. My 2007 Macbook Pro died due to issues with the nVidia graphics chip desoldering itself. Again they went down the deny forever route, another law suit, and finally they quietly posted a recall notice on their web site that I missed the deadline on by a few days.

⬐ bayofpigs

Same with my 2007 MBP. They did eventually replace the motherboard based on the recall but afterwords the DVD player didn't read consistently (but didn't notice till months later) and one of the speakers went out. Also stopped using it for heavy video applications in fear it would happen again.

> I like the OS, and I've never found a PC laptop to come remotely close to the sweet ergonomics of those Macbooks.

So, an interesting takedown[1] of Apple engineering was posted on /r/videos yesterday. I can't speak to the veracity, but there's some interesting claims there that if true would make me think twice before buying an Apple Laptop (specifically because of very long-standing issues and warranty shenanigans). There's a segment on the keyboard towards the second half as well.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

All you need to know about Apple Engineering by Louis Rossmann https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8