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the verge is so bad they have me defending Apple, damn you D:

Louis Rossmann · Youtube · 362 HN points · 1 HN comments
HN Theater has aggregated all Hacker News stories and comments that mention Louis Rossmann's video "the verge is so bad they have me defending Apple, damn you D:".
Youtube Summary
https://old.reddit.com/r/gadgets/comments/uulv9q/apple_shipped_me_a_79pound_iphone_repair_kit_to/
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Hacker News Stories and Comments

All the comments and stories posted to Hacker News that reference this video.
Louis Rossman replied to this article in a humorous fashion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhCaFW5xTk

May 22, 2022 · 362 points, 113 comments · submitted by mikece
Aunche
Good on Rossmann for calling out bullshit on his own side. Legitimate issues often get hijacked by do-nothing whiners, yet all too often they get ignored or even encouraged for the sake of prioritizing short term political gain.
sokoloff
Agree. I think politics overall would be aided if more people called out bullshit from their own side. It’s easy to see when some “other side” spouts BS, but often harder to see and/or have the courage when it’s someone who is mostly pulling in a direction you want to go, but has an idiotic idea or is spouting bullshit.

When that step is skipped, weak or outright incorrect thoughts, ideas, and plans are allowed to propagate and become part of the movement, either in fact or via association.

When you take that step, you might offend someone whose idea was on the weak-to-bullshit spectrum, but you also hone your group’s ideas and help align the broad group of people who previously never had an opinion but are willing to get behind strong, sensible ideas.

gabrielblack
I totally agree with Rossmann: the more important thing is that you can lease the equipment from Apple but there is no obligation. The equipment is intended to do a job compliant with Apple standard but, if you don't care to replace the water proof sealant, etc, you can use tools you already have or more cheap from your regular sources ( hardware stores, ebay, etc). The right to repair is a serious matter, without activist like Rossmann, who spent his time to speak to the US Congress, we wouldn't even have the spare parts from Apple: this is the real vantage, not the possibility to lease the tools.
prepend
I read the article and felt similarly. That the verge was just whining and presenting in a really negative light.

The whole time I read It, I couldn’t help thinking “what do you want here? What’s the right thing?”

The product is complex and hard to work on. It would be nice if they were designed to be easier to work on, but they’re waterproof and meant to be drop resistant, etc.

I think it’s great they make these kits available and previously didn’t. That should be lauded. Would we rather Apple not release these handbooks and equipment?

Brian_K_White
“what do you want here? What’s the right thing?”

Parts, and not having the thing artificially brick itself.

These tools do no harm other than the indirect and unprovable sort of harm suggested by the article, but they do no good either. They are irrelevant, in that lack of these tools is not what prevents repairing Apple products.

What prevents repairing Apple products is Apple using the US government to seize harvested 2nd hand parts they no longer have any moral right to control at the border by lying and claiming they are counterfeit, forcing component makers to exclusive deals where they are not allowed to sell custom chips to anyone but Apple, and Apple doesn't sell them, and no other manufacturer can make them since they are proprietary without published specs. And artificially bricking devices for no actual techical or security reason.

No one makes Apple do those things, and it costs Apple nothing to simply not do that. Well, nothing they have any right to in the first place.

2OEH8eoCRo0
> The single most frustrating part of this process, after using Apple’s genuine parts and Apple’s genuine tools, was that my iPhone didn’t recognize the genuine battery as genuine. “Unknown Part,” flashed a warning. Apparently, that’s the case for almost all of these parts: you’re expected to dial up Apple’s third-party logistics company after the repair so they can validate the part for you. That’s a process that involves having an entirely separate computer and a Wi-Fi connection since you have to reboot your iPhone into diagnostics mode and give the company remote control. Which, of course, defeats a bunch of the reasons you’d repair your own device at home!
Ecstatify
The Verge is honestly terrible, incredibly biased. They're essentially a PR firm targeting certain companies competitors.

You pay $$$, you get positive coverage. They're the Yelp of tech news.

btmiller
Is this true? And if so, how long has The Verge been like this? I was always fond of the quality of their video productions (to make no judgment of their reviews).
izacus
The Verge is regularly criticized for their pro-Apple bias in Android community which shows how much those complaints really matter ;)
havelhovel
My personal opinion of The Verge writers is that they are mostly liberal arts majors LARPing as tech experts to make ends meet. The general resentment for the ascendancy of tech is palpable. Maybe someone in their 18th Century English lit class called them a geek at some point, so they honestly think they know what they’re talking about relative to the general public, but the average commenter on HN has greater context on almost anything The Verge churns out. I’m okay with non-technical people in journalism roles, but I do take issue with presenting these people as authoritative sources that can express their subjective opinions as unchallenged fact, and that’s what The Verge is all about as of late.
de6u99er
Remember The Verge's PC build video?

https://youtu.be/2lmfF0k2UcU

runeks
No. Why is it relevant?
pooper
Probably the fact that it went through an editorial process that somehow made it worse?
crisdux
It's relevant because people should consider the source when they perform an initial appraisal of a piece of information. The Verge is a vox media owned publication with low standards and lack of expertise on most topics they cover.
sakarisson
The host redeemed himself on LTT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKzmYsySGFQ

dvhh
I think it was admitted that the editing made things worse than it already was
zamalek
He did a follow up video with LTT explaining everything (while building a PC). He got the script on/near to the day and it made no sense to him either. He may have made some mistakes under the pressure, but Verge was to blame for 90% of that train wreck.
the_only_law
I’d be very listed and eager for some compensation. That guy was dragged pretty bad in many internet circles.
chx
They just reviewed the ugreen nexode , a 200w six port USB C charger. What you can't find in this review is a comparison to the two other six port solutions at a similar wattage, that being the SlimQ F240 + their tiny DC extender and the EGO Exinno 240W. (Not to mention the famous ;) chx-hack of using the Lenovo tip version of the AS-240 GaN+SiC charger, the Lenovo 4X90U90620 slim tip splitter and two SlimQ DC extenders :P although I use only one, I use the 170W leg of the splitter to feed my beastly X1E4.) They clearly are not well versed in this.
xbar
Classic paid prop piece-style review.

It would be a failure to read The Verge, or other Vox Media properties, as journalism.

laserlight
[0] is the HN discussion of the Verge article Rossmann is talking about.

[0] Apple Shipped Me a 79-Pound iPhone Repair Kit to Fix a 1.1-Ounce Battery. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456763

Fuhrer01
Louis is doing god's work in right to repair. Hope he succeeds. I wonder what Hunter Thompson would say about Verge today.
curiousgal
Honestly, I miss it when he used to just make technical repair videos. Luckily Northridge Fix[0] fills that gap now.

0.https://youtube.com/c/NorthridgeFix

donthellbanme
I've never said this about anyone in tech, but I feel Louis Rossman should run for the Senate, or the House.

I've kept an eye on him for years, and think he's honest, and trustworthy. He does not appear to be a sellout in the slightest.

Becomming a politician doesn't sound like the life he wants, but we need guys like Louis running our country.

(It's not that crazy. A few years ago Zuck thought he had a chance in politics. His yes men put him on tractors in the midwest with a cowboy hat. I even think they had him sucking on a stick of wheat? All I knew is they picked the wrong guy. Zuck was a joke on so many levels though, --even then. How a young man can make so many ugly decisions so quick is beyond me. I guess that's why he's a 1 percenter? Nice fair people don't become wealthy. He was just about his money, and his narcisstic life. Louis seems just honest, and cares about what's fair. He never asked to be the spokesman for Right to Repair. He was just, like I was, irritated over pricy items we can't fix.)

alangibson
Someone once said Zuck has all the charm of a talking parking meter. Truer words, etc. </hatering>
samatman
> 1 percenter

Zucc has 2% of all wealth owned by American Millennials. Singlehandedly. The other 98% is owned by everyone else in his generation.

1 percenter? Yeah technically he's in the 99th percentile, but technically he's in the 50th percentile as well....

Edit: Rossman, a successful business owner and YouTube personality, is clearly a 1 percenter as well. Just to further illustrate what a silly thing that is to say about the Zucc.

op00to
He wouldn’t care about it because The Verge has nothing to do with politics. What do you think he would say?
Bud
Thompson actually had quite diverse interests, ranging far abroad from politics.
Fnoord
I dislike the title of this video. It doesn't describe the content, it only describes the surface of a conflict ('X is so bad [...]') in an emotional way, putting themselves on a high horse. The title is a prime example of what's wrong with the advertisement industry though. I find it rather ironic, given the content although one could say the same about my comment.
pcmoney
As I have said before: Its the verge and they are a joke now. They have one article lately and its “tech company bad”.

They basically pander to people who want to think they know about tech but aren’t in tech and likely couldn’t make it in tech. Feels like a bunch of bitterness and copium. I just ignore them now but miss their old good tech coverage.

sudden_dystopia
Vox media for ya. Now just imagine the bs they are spouting when it comes to actual important issues.
2OEH8eoCRo0
I don't usually read them but I sometimes watch their videos. I'm center-right and I don't see the issue.
olliej
I generally don't like "man rants at camera" style videos but I think this is actually really good - I had assumed it would be just complaining about the size/weight/etc of the repair equipment[1], but it was mostly calling out how their reporting makes it sound like the right-to-repair folk are assholes, and how their reporting doesn't actually touch on any of the stuff that isn't repairable.

[1] which does seem big, but I recall the difference in effectiveness, robustness, and weight of a high end crimper vs some cheap $20 one so I'm guessing Apple did the maths on repair failures to get this type of equipment

KennyBlanken
Rossmann loves to rant at the camera about a lot of shit he knows nothing about. He's kind of turning into the Joe Rogan of tech.

He lost an incredible amount of credibility for me when he acted like he was a victim of Big Bad Apple siccing their lawyers on him for "selling parts."

Apple didn't go after him because he was "selling parts", they went after him because he was selling laptop and phone batteries with the Apple logo on them - labels printed to look exactly like the original parts. Something that implies to sellers that the parts meet Apple's standards, was made by an Apple OEM, etc.

A lot of aftermarket replacement batteries are shit. They have higher internal resistance so they don't charge as fast / heat up more when charging, don't have the same capacity, or they degrade faster, or all of the above. One of Apple's big successes with the circa-2013 Macbook Pro was that they used a battery that could survive thousands of cycles and only lose about 80% of its capacity. Far as I know, none of the replacement MBP batteries, save those used by Apple in their replacement program, are anywhere near as long-lasting.

Lot of aftermarket parts in general are pretty shit. Look around on the phone repair web boards and sub-reddits and you'll see talk about different grades of replacement parts. Screens, for example, can range from being terrible (poor graphics quality and poor digitizer performance) to "indistinguishable from OEM." The difference is usually at most $10, but a lot of phone repair places want that extra $10 of profit. They don't necessarily correctly program the replacement displays, they don't necessarily replace the gasket that keeps the phone waterproof, etc.

The mobile phone repair business is a shitshow full of scammers. When you realize how difficult it is to buy a used iPhone that hasn't been butchered by some clown 'refurbisher' or repaired with substandard parts, you start to appreciate why Apple engages in stuff like having screens programmed to match the mainboard.

dm319
> Apple didn't go after him because he was "selling parts", they went after him because he was selling laptop and phone batteries with the Apple logo on them

Mind if I have a source for this?

None
None
philliphaydon
He has no source because the batteries were seized as counterfeit despite being refurbished.
quink
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/9pow06/louis_rossman...
viraptor
The way I understand it is that the parts get the Apple logo sharpied out permanently, not just for the customs purposes. He's quite open about not being authorised and using parts that come from broken devices or are bought from unofficial sources. I believe I've heard that multiple times in his videos. This issue from the post seems to be 100% on the supplier, and nobody getting the repairs done was getting deceived (as long as he makes that clear to the customers as well)
iforgotpassword
AFAIU that thread was about batteries that were supposed to be refurbished and then turned out to be counterfeit. That's a little different. Also there's no hint at that being the reason he got calls from apple lawyers, but that's probably something we'll never find out.
sokoloff
> battery that could survive thousands of cycles and only lose about 80% of its capacity

Presumably you mean only lose 20% of its capacity?

bmn__
KennyBlanken loves to rant at HN about a lot of shit he knows nothing about.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27849487

kramerger
> He's kind of turning into the Joe Rogan of tech.

He also have tons of political rants, so it's not only tech

philliphaydon
I stopped watching when he rennovated his new store and he got bad information from his viewers and his friend. Then I ended up getting his recommendations again during covid where he rants on and on. Difficult to unfollow.
Ultimatt
So he went for reclaimed actual apple parts, recycling them for repair to keep the same Apple quality... is an equally valid and more likely reason the Apple logos were there. A practice Apple prevented by crypto keying components to a phone.
pabs3
In the video he explains that the equipment is simply what Apple uses internally, seems reasonable that customers get access to the same equipment and use it if they want or use something cheaper if not.
olliej
yeah - it was a reasonable "you're attacking apple providing the same equipment it uses internally, rather than apple not providing [other info/equip that would actually be useful]" argument
dhosek
Why on earth is this a video and not a blog post? Do people really prefer to watch the dude walking around a park ranting rather than just reading what he has to say? Or am a grumpy old man yelling at clouds?
2OEH8eoCRo0
> Why on earth is this a video and not a blog post.

Money. You also can't in practice build a large following strictly from text blogging. Let the algorithm work with you, not against you.

SAI_Peregrinus
He has a Youtube channel already, and not a blog. So his audience uses Youtube's subscription notifications. Most of his content (showing component-level PCB repair) works far better via video than text.
Ekaros
I think issue is that they come from different view points. Rossman runs a company offering these services and he sees issues what they are allowed and can do about repairs. And he has essentially trained and skilled labour to do it.

On other hand Verge look it from consumer standpoint. Who might do one of repair every few years. From that view devices should be much simpler and easier to repair by unskilled owners.

Nothing wrong on either side, but I might go with viewpoint that devices should be easily customer repairable without shipping special tools, with massive deposit.

ClumsyPilot
> On other hand Verge look it from consumer standpoint.

I think the Verge look at it from the idiot standpoint -> most consumers will go to a local repair store, and if parts and tools are avaliable then they can get better and cheaper service. The repair store can invest a few grand in proper tools and use them regularly.

samatman
Sure as long as you're relying the market and not the government to give this to you.

I personally don't care one bit about replacing the battery in my cell phone. I don't want to be reliant on one single corporation, but as long as the parts are available to other professionals I can pay, I'm fine.

I do want the waterproofness and compactness that goes with this, particular for my watch which is also a phone for the record, so I consider this to go far beyond what is reasonable as a legal restriction.

In other words, I hope you're not one of those people who thinks Right to Repair gives you a vote as to how companies design their products. That's annoying.

Edit: a vote besides the one you take with your wallet of course! My Precursor might just arrive this week and I'm excited about that (and won't be dipping it in the drink, at least not on purpose).

ClumsyPilot
> I hope you're not one of those people who thinks Right to Repair gives you a vote as to how companies design their products. That's annoying.

Welcome to democracy mate, where we vote on any issues we deem worthy.

Among them is regulating how companies design their products, becuase sometimes they combust and burn down our houses, or electrecute and kill us, produce electromagnetic noise that knocks out all radio communication, and at the end of their life they get discarded and poison our groundwater.

nabla9
There is something wrong in the other side.

Whey you try to make a phone that is water tight, very tiny, tough and as durable as possible, you can't expect it to be easy and safe to open with easy tools. These tools are still cheap enough that you could have them in your local community center or library (here in Finland we have weird stuff in local libraries) where people can do it.

Changing batteries to watertight wrist watches or is also hard.

kevin_thibedeau
Watches use a gasket and either a friction fit or screwed on cover. There is no reason a phone manufacturer can't do the same with a larger product.
omegabravo
Interestingly enough, friction fit watches have speciality designed tools for them so you don't damage the face when applying the pressure.

I recently changed my watch batteries and had to use multiple clamps to close it. You can repair an iphone without these tools, you're just taking more of a risk.

nabla9
You use case back press or similar tool to remove it if you don't want scratches. Just like with a iPhone you can always use knife if you don't care.
kalleboo
When I had the battery replaced on my watch, the shop said they can no longer guarantee the waterproofing.
Gigachad
How would you remove a friction fit backing for a phone? That would be a massive amount of force if it was fit tight enough for a phone backing. The adhesive is relatively easy to remove tbh, the tools aren’t rocket science.

The average person doesn’t even replace their own watch battery because the stores can do it for them. There is close to no benefit to doing it yourself.

omegabravo
How do you get ever thinner phones without the tooling designed to dismantle it?

It's no different in other industries. Small and compact requires special tools. You (and I) being willing to compromise on size to have better ability to repair the device doesn't represent the market at all.

These complex engineered systems are going to continue to trend towards costly tools for repair.

In a similar way, ICs are also impossible to repair compared to decades ago when you could lift out a faulty memory chip and replace it.

It's far more important for companies like apple to accept 3rd party replacements and provide access to parts than worry about the speciality tools required unless they're there to be difficult. It certainly doesn't appear to be the case here.

A repair shop would buy these tools, because otherwise they risk damaging the ($1k) phone trying to save a few bucks.

Phones are going to be too complex for reliable home repair. I also don't repair my compressor in the AC, nor do I repair the wingdings in my vacuum cleaner. I just replace the part.

I think the compromise here is fine, they're not plastic welded, they're sealed with adhesive.

makeitdouble
> How do you get ever thinner phones without the tooling designed to dismantle it?

This all issue made me think about the SIM tray: the SIM card contacts could also be sealed and recessed between the battery and the motherboard, and you’d go to an Apple Store to change the card whenever you need it.

But you don’t, no one would accept having to get a phone serviced every time a SIM change is needed, even if some people never ever change it after purchase. So it’s designed in a way that you just push a thin bar in it and it pops out, you put your card, push it back, and your phone is still thin and waterproof.

I genuinely think Apple could come up with a similarily elegant solution if they were making way more money by having easy to repair phones than having people give up and buy new phones instead.

vldr
This bizarre set of tools is like the cookie wall solution. Make the solution so unusable for the end user but technically/legally correct (well, not sure actually) that you "comply" while also attempting to show how ridiculous the requirement is.
ngcc_hk
I think the key is to have 3rd party that can do it. I am a hobbyist but after a break of my macmini due to fat finger, I paid for a repair shop to upgrade the memory since.

Getting in is a professional job. Just not necessarily apple job.

gamblor956
Wow, the level of Stockholm syndrome the author must have to think that shipping 79 pounds of equipment is somehow a reasonable way to deal with self-repair instead of just making the damn phones repairable with the tools everybody already has!

I'm embarrassed for the author. Someday, he'll be embarrassed by this video too.

n3storm
We should have t-shirts of stallman and rossman side by side
goodguyamerikan
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- verge is long form tabloid. They are deliberately contrarian (in the hope of appearing smart) and provocative (in the hope of getting eyeballs). Except polygon, the entire group of publications is pure sleaze.
rvz
> They are deliberately contrarian (in the hope of appearing smart) and provocative (in the hope of getting eyeballs).

Yes. It is no different to the Daily Mail as they deliberately have clickbait headlines that bring in outrage and have their brainless commenters regurgitating the same manufactured nonsense by the views of the editor; especially when not all of their articles enable the comments.

Rarely do you get someone calling them out for their inaccurate reporting in the contents of the article. If one highlights an inaccuracy, their army of muppets will scream at you for not having the same views as them or the editor.

They should just stick to tech reviews or buyers guides. Anything on politics, tech news, crypto, law-suits, etc steer clear from it.

roberthanry79
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FounderBurr
Rossmann is a cringy unwatchable asshole, but that commands an audience.
ProtoMathics
When Rossman started to make Luke Smith style videos ?
Shadonototra
the verge won't miss an opportunity to shoot at Apple

they have a preference for microsoft products, if you read them everyday (spoiler: i do), then you'll notice it

saynay
What? No they don't, they consistently and heavily praise all Apple hardware, and pretty much the entire staff uses Apple devices for at least work.

Just because they can be critical of Apple's business practices, doesn't mean they hate Apple.

nikau
Things must have changed in the last year or so then, they were always referred to as iVerge due to their massive Apple bias.
michaelnoguera
I have tried to faithfully summarize the video here. If you notice a mistake or omission, please correct me.

Rossmann’s main message: “to complain about something that is an option rather than complain about all of the options that are missing misses the forest for the trees”.

Key points:

1. For certain repairs, Apple’s repair program has “made availiable the exact same OEM parts and tools that they use” via rental. Renting these tools is optional and not required; Rossmann recognizes that while he (and in his opinion, most people) will likely not use these tools, their availability is a non-issue.

2. Sean Hollister’s article in The Verge was highly critical of the entire self-repair process, and called out the weight and price of this completely optional tool rental. Per Rossmann, “part of the problem with tech journalism in general is… focusing on the things that are easy rather than focusing on the things that matter”.

3. Rossmann reminds us that the right-to-repair fight is far from over. Board schematics and individual components are still not available even to authorized repair shops. He argues that these would enable him to more efficiently perform repairs.

4. Rossmann: While the tech press’s complaints are “making the right to repair people look like… fools”, “it is important to [know] that they don’t represent us [normal repair shops and average users]”.

fock
thanks, now I've skimmed the verge piece and read your summary and have to admit: wasn't the main point of the verge that it's absolute ridiculous that the "apple approved"-way of fixing things requires two peli-cases of custom tools. This doesn't scale FOR THEM and one of the main points of criticisim in the verge revolved around that! The whole process is just designed so that in 3-4 years Apple will go to their favorite congress critters and say: "look, noones using this and it's expensive!!!". Then fast-forward to Rossmanns point 3.
Gigachad
You don’t need those tools. It’s very easy to do with a hairdryer and a guitar pick. The point of the tools which is mentioned in the video is it allows a moron with no skill or hand to eye coordination to reliably replace batteries all day with no failures and a perfect finish.

You, a competent person, will just use a guitar pick and your fingers to do the same job. Or at least you won’t have anyone else to blame if you mess it up when apple offered the tools or the in store service to have it done.

Apple has a tool for putting glass screen protectors on phones, or unplugging the power cable from their monitors. All things normal people can manage just fine with their hands. But the tool costs very little when used regularly at a store and prevents the rare mistakes.

seanp2k2
To be fair, the person at The Verge couldn’t make it perfect because they didn’t remove all the adhesive around the screen, so already it’s Apple: 0, fools: 1.
arka2147483647
Iphones have IP ratings. Make tiny mistake in battery swap and display re-gluing process, and your phone is no longer waterproof.

There is a difference in doing something properly, and doing it ”good enough”.

Gigachad
Sure, and if you care, you can either rent the tools, or bring your phone to a store that has them. I’m not sure what more could be done.
turbinerneiter
The article made it seem like Apple is forcing anyone to get these tools, when they are not. The article heavily falls into the exactly that trap.
delusional
Excuse me what? Did we read the same article?

The conclusion of the article is literally:

>The more I think about it, the more I realize Apple’s Self-Service Repair program is the perfect way to make it look like the company supports right-to-repair policies without actually encouraging them at all. Apple can say it’s giving consumers access to everything, even the same tools its technicians use, while scaring them away with high prices, complexity, and the risk of losing a $1,200 deposit. This way, Apple gets credit for walking you through an 80-page repair, instead of building phones where — say — you don’t need to remove the phone’s most delicate components and two different types of security screws just to replace a battery.

> I don’t think Apple expects anyone to seriously take it up on the offer of self-service repair kits. It stacked the deck in favor of taking your phone to an Apple Store, where it can tempt you to buy something new instead. The real victory will come months or years down the road, though. That’s when Apple can tell legislators it tried to give right-to-repair advocates what they wanted — but that consumers overwhelmingly decided Apple knows best.

The whole tone of the article is clearly that it's absurd to rent these tools, and that the option to do so is a red herring.

simonh
Or alternatively it was absurd for hobbyist repairers to ask for these tools in the first place, and if they’re upset now when they are given what they asked for, maybe that’s on them, not Apple.
Brian_K_White
No one did ask for this.
None
None
heisenzombie
It seems very unsurprising to me that Apple internally uses industrial tools and custom jigs and fixtures to repair iPhones. Right? Like, it would be super weird if they used low-cost hand tools.

So is the complaint here that in addition to making the parts available to purchase, and a rental program for the “industrial” gear, they should also have developed a parallel set of low-cost tools and procedures for the hobby/personal market?

I think that’s a red-herring. A home hobbyist would be better off going “great, thanks for the parts, I’m off to pay iFixit for some tools. Oh and now give us schematics and parts for when I work out how to do SMD rework”

(And for pro shops, the price quoted for those pelican cases strikes me as an absolute bargain, if they don’t already have tools they like better)

Brian_K_White
"So is the complaint here that in addition to making the parts available to purchase, and a rental program for the “industrial” gear, they should also have developed a parallel set of low-cost tools and procedures for the hobby/personal market?"

No. It's that this is mostly a diversion that does nothing to address what someone actually needs to reapair a device, which is parts and for the software not to artificially brick the hardware. But it makes everyone else who don't repair things think that Apple is trying to be reasonable and cooperative while they're still not at all.

Closi
Yeah! It would be weird to me if Apple said the official recommended repair process was to use a domestic hand-dryer or a hot water bottle and a guitar pick.
larossmann
Wow. If I ever start doing videos with a script, I will hire you to write them. This is so much easier than watching a 7 minute rant. Thank you!
g051051
Thanks for the summary. His choice to film this walking around with the camera rolling and pitching like a ship on the high seas made it unwatchable for me. I felt the same way about the article, the author seemed to try as hard as he could to find fault with the whole process.
ksec
Unpopular opinion.

The Verge did exactly what Apple would have like them to do. And you could argue whether that was intentional or not. ( Part of the whole PR play is to shape public discourse )

By showcasing the proper way of doing it, or how it is done when you paid $69 in the Apple Store, the article has correctly set the stage for 99% of Tech readers. ( Non-Tech people never give a damn or wouldn't want to try it themselves anyway ).

samsa
Apple would like you to have them / their contractors repair your device, or better yet buy a new one.

Everything about this program signals that Apple is grudgingly doing this. It's designed to scare people away from doing the repairs themselves.

Sebb767
Honestly, how? They provide the parts at a reasonable price and even provide the actual tooling they use to get something as close to OEM repair as possible. There are a lot of things faulty at Apple, but this is not one of them.
samsa
I suppose "scare" was perhaps too strong a word. "Steer" would have been more appropriate. Search Apple's website for "repair" to get a sense of how important they think letting consumers know about this program is.

You'll find 404 responses when you click on repair manual links; the link to the self service repair is at the bottom of the support page; the self service storefront is very deliberately non-descript and as others have mentioned immediately raises red flags for people trained to look for basic clues about a site's legitimacy. Etc.

fargle
The issue is that the owners of a device should have the choice whether they want an OEM quality repair or just "good enough", not Apple. It's just not their position to make this decision for you.

The argument will be made that the "App Store" is there to protect you because security/privacy. And the DRM'd components are there to protect you from cheap chinese knockoffs. I think that's fine as long as it's opt-in.

But no, it's not for your protection - it's to control the market and drive the cost of repair higher so you will forced to buy a new phone more often. This is a blatant case of "OK you demanded right-to-repair, so let's show you how to make it as difficult as possible". It's not grudging - it's willful and spiteful.

Brian_K_White
But they don't. Comments like this proves the effectiveness of the pr stunt. This kit of tools is not what anyone asked for or needed, and does not address any of the actual problems with repairing Apple products.
Sebb767
If definitely does address some. As Louis correctly points out, if you don't have much skill and/or want an OEM-like repair, having those tools available is great. And if you don't need them, Apple doesn't force them onto you. I honestly think it's great that they offer their tooling for rent. Now, the program is not perfect by any means. But it definitely does address some of the problems with repairing Apple products.

Lastly, as I already pointed out in a sister comment, the grandparent said the program is designed to scare people away from repairing their phone. I actually don't see how. In fact, providing the tooling makes it more accessible than just providing the parts. I'd love to see everything replaceable, but this is a step in the right direction.

ClumsyPilot
Can you buy the $5 lighting port if your's has broken? Can you buy the $2 charging chip? Can you buy a microphone, a gyroscope, or any of the 50 individual electronic components for either phones, laptops or tablets? Can you at least by the micropone jack?

I rest my case.

kcplate
I’m gonna assume from your name that you might understand what I am about to say— I think you may be demanding SRU and SRCs where LRUs are appropriate.
Sebb767
The original comment said:

> It's designed to scare people away from doing the repairs themselves.

I don't think the program is perfect, but I don't see how missing components scare people away.

nudgeee
The idea of OEM repairs is to get the product back as close to factory quality as possible with as little margin for error as possible by the operator. This often requires custom tools and jigs to maximize repeatability at a high quality standard, especially on something as complex and highly integrated as a smartphone.

The gripe of the right to repair movement isn’t that tech should be made less complex, it is that the access to parts, information and schematics/designs should be made more accessible for repairs — useful if you have the necessary skills required to carry out repairs without OEM tools.

This is coming from someone who does board level repairs on the side.

Bud
This may be the gripe of your particular highly-skilled niche of the right-to-repair movement, but wide swaths of said movement are agitating for products to be wholly redesigned in the ways they prefer, to aid in much easier repairs. Never mind what the other 98% of the market might like.
ClumsyPilot
I disagree with both claims you are making - that right to repair folks are agitating for redesign, and that 98% of the market is happy with the status quo.

If I go out and ask everyone I know, if they are happy with the current unrepairable appliances, the amount of people who answer yes is < 10%.

The only people I know who are happy, live in extreme privilidge where they can afford replacing devices annually.

But let us say that both claims you are making are true -> so what? What are the economic and environmental implication of unrepairable equipment?

gruez
>If I go out and ask everyone I know, if they are happy with the current unrepairable appliances, the amount of people who answer yes is < 10%.

The question seems pointless because it's a combination of asking something that people always want more of (who doesn't want more repairability, at least in the abstract?), and fails to mention the trade-offs (eg. price, thinness, water resistance).

ClumsyPilot
They don't have IQ of a mushroom, we don't understand the tradeoffs

Anyway, is your result from doing simiar diffetent?

Bud
Who said anything about replacing devices annually? Could we at least argue honestly and in good faith?

iPhones and iPads are very easily good for, at a minimum, three to four years of very heavy use before any battery replacement would be necessary at all.

Your numbers are sourced from a very atypical population, and you are obviously smart enough to know that. My numbers are accurate, as evidenced by, um, people still buying hundreds of millions of iPhones a year and Apple still having the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry. Astronomically high ratings.

As for the environmental implications, that is of course a fair question, but have you taken some time to familiarize yourself with Apple's extraordinary efforts to build robots for the specific purpose of fully disassembling its devices so that materials can then be recycled? You should. You might be impressed.

quesera
> If I go out and ask everyone I know, if they are happy with the current unrepairable appliances, the amount of people who answer yes is < 10%.

I find this incredible.

Most people have been throwing away / replacing perfectly repairable appliances since long before mobile phones.

What makes mobile phones different?

(Obligatory Framing: I'm all for RtR. I don't think it's practical to require Apple to dumb down their design or construction to fit what a consumer could accomplish at their basement bench. But if I, or my neighborhood repair shop, is sophisticated enough to perform the work, I do think parts should be available.)

fartcannon
Mostly I don't want to have to worry what booby traps might trip in a device I payed a substantial amount for because of some petulant CEO.
Nextgrid
I wouldn't be surprised if making the tools available was indeed a PR move by Apple to show off how difficult & inconvenient a "perfect" repair is to do. They didn't have to do it and as far as I know nobody was asking for those (opening/closing iPhones is a long-solved problem by various third-party tools) - instead the RtR crowd is asking for parts and schematics (which this self-repair program doesn't fully address - the parts catalog is minimal).

The fact that they're subsidizing the tool kits (the $1200 deposit they take is nowhere near the value of all that equipment) also suggests that they wanted regular people to get their hands on these tools (and no doubt talk about it) as opposed to charging the actual market value which - while affordable for a repair shop - would've been way out of reach of a regular user.

After all, this kind of equipment is not new and has been available for ages (comments on another thread about this say that in China every phone repair outlet had similar equipment) if you could justify buying it, and yet we haven't had articles like this on major tech news websites until Apple subsidized it enough and put it in a nice, idiot-friendly package.

delusional
It's crazy to read this comment because the article in the verge literally makes the exact same point.
Wowfunhappy
I partly agree, but I wish The Verge had been clearer that the huge kit was optional and the other parts could be bought separately.

And... I don't know, PR move or not, isn't it awesome that regular consumers can rent access to the full kit? I'm not sure who I'd recommend it to, but I'm sure someone is super excited, and good for them!

If I'd written the article at The Verge, I would have ended with something along the lines of:

> For most people, renting Apple's Tool Kit isn't worth the cost or hassle. If you don't have experience repairing electronics, the Apple Store is a safer and easier alternative, and if you do, you probably have your own tools already. It's great to see Apple selling genuine replacement parts to consumers. Just, don't throw out that iFixIt toolkit quite yet!

Nullabillity
It's not awesome that their phones are designed so maliciously (poorly if you want to be charitable.. but what have they done to deserve that interpretation?) that you need all this kit (or the equivalent from elsewhere) to repair your stuff.
Wowfunhappy
But it isn't necessarily malice or poor design, merely different priorities. Apple may well be trying to design phones that are as small, capable, and water-resistant as possible, all of which come at the cost of repairability.
delusional
I guess you can always argue for _more_ of whatever angle you prefer, but it's right there at the start of the article. It's even mentioned twice in the same paragraph.

>The thing you should understand about Apple’s home repair process is that it’s a far cry from traditional DIY if you opt for the kit — which I did, once I saw the repair manual only contains instructions for Apple’s own tools. (You can just buy a battery if you want.)

Wowfunhappy
That's fair, but for what it's worth I did read the article and I legitimately missed this. I don't think I was the only one given what the reaction seems to have been.
HomeGear
While I have no data to support this, I don’t think “regular people” are purchasing OEM parts, renting tools for a $1,200 deposit, and risking self-repair. To me, the idea is almost absurd.
Wowfunhappy
I agree, but I think lots of regular people would like to get their phones fixed more cheaply at a third-party repair shop.
ClumsyPilot
> The fact that they're subsidizing the tool kits (the $1200 deposit they take is nowhere near the value of all that equipment)

That's not a subsidy - in the normal course of business the deposit is returned and no money changes hands.

The deposit is just an insentive to return the goods, it can cover 30% or 300% of the value. The tools might not be returned, and that probably is a crime, but that's not a subsidy.

Zren
You can purchase all the tools instead of renting them. Someone on reddit did the math and found it was $1100 to buy everything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/uuocl3/the_verge_...

To confirm it, here's all the Apple Tools listed for the iPhone 12 Battery Replacement. All costed at $1086.96.

    # Apple Tools  
     $49.00 [7-Day Rental] iPhone 12 Tool Kit (Part RKIT-12) [Rental Information]  
      $0.65 Back Protective Cover (Part 923-04877)  
      $0.65 Display Protective Cover (Part 923-04878)  
      $0.70 Adhesive Cutter (Part 923-01092)  
      $2.78 Nylon Probe (Black Stick) (Part 922-5065)  
      $8.00 JCIS Bit (Part 923-0246)  
     $10.00 Super screw Bit (Part 923-02066)  
     $12.00 Micro Stix® Bit (Part 923-01290)  
     $13.33 Torx® Security Bit (Part 923-0247)  
     $29.50 Display Adhesive Press Plate (Part 923-04911)  
     $50.00 6.1-inch Repair Tray (Part 923-04908)  
     $80.00 Torque Driver (Green, 0.45 kgf cm) (Part 923-00105)  
     $85.00 Torque Driver (Gray, 0.55 kgf cm) (Part 923-00738)  
     $99.00 Torque Driver (Black, 0.35 kgf cm) Kit (Part 923-0248)  
    $108.00 6.1-inch Heated Display Pocket (Part 661-19620)  
    $115.00 Battery Press (Part 923-02657)  
    $216.00 Display Press (Part 661-08916)  
    $256.35 Heated Display Removal Fixture (Part 661-17619)
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