HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

100C is where intel typically throttles down clock as a life saving measure. You can run at 100C, or higher, but modern CPUs will cut down performance in an attempt to lower temp. High temp = shorter life. Macbooks adjusted that limit upwards so the CPU has a higher threshold before the auto-throttle kicks in. More about that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=947op8yKJRY

If you happen to be in the same spot for a few months, I highly recommend building your own PC.

More information on why laptops don't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=947op8yKJRY

I've been through so many laptops. After I tried a desktop in 2019, I can't seriously consider a laptop, unless in a pinch. Even so-called "beefy" workstations, e.g. W series Thinkpads, I've returned. They throttle too.

You want to know what beats a $3500 Macbook Pro? For me, a desktop with "ok" parts and water cooling.

You'll never have a fan issue. You get to use high quality parts that are replaceable with their own warranty.

Even the cables are super high grade. And you still come in at a third of the cost, slightly more than half the cost if you want to splurge.

You'll never have slowdowns. You can power multiple 4k monitors, ultrawides, whatever you want.

It boils down to keeping all these parts in a small chassis. If Apple cared, they'd stop the soldering and add an inch and half thickness and let the thing ventilate, because these things are built for consumption, not creation (e.g. being under an intensive rendering/compilation/io workload).

⬐ arvinsim

I think the problem in PC land that small form factor solutions are hard to build or approaching the price of the Mac counterpart.

That being said, I am keen on creating an SFF build in the future.

⬐ wlesieutre

Watercooling is probably overkill unless you want to overclock. Less complicated than it used to be though, Corsair and similar sell complete CPU/pump/radiator loops for relatively cheap that you just drop in.

⬐ clSTophEjUdRanu

I have a W541with a 4910MQ and haven't seen it throttle.

⬐ petersellers

You don't even need watercooling for really good thermal control on a desktop. Companies like Noctua make CPU fans that are just as effective, quieter, and are less complex than watercoolers (and I say this having built a watercooled system in the past year).

Watercoolers do have fans, so not only can you run into potential "fan issues" but you can also have a "pump issue" on top of that.

⬐ Matthias247

+1 on that. High quality air coolers are great options. They can still be super silent and are nearly maintainance free. I had higher end thermalright fan cooler on my old desktop and it run without issues for 6 years with multiple hours per day usage. For my new desktop I invested in a be quiet dark rock pro and hopes it will do the same. Noctua also has great options, and other companies too. But don’t try to save too much on coolers. The lower end models might be cheaper, but having to deal with less noise is so much worth 50$ extra over a couple of years.

This video by Linus Tech Tips explains it a bit further: https://youtu.be/947op8yKJRY

⬐ cronin101

While this is entirely valid criticism, it glosses over the fact that the experiments were heavily biased towards long running workloads typical for media producers.

I'm not using my MBP to render 4k video or maxing all cores of the CPU for sustained periods.

It seems clear to me that for the casual/developer segment, that has eaten up the entire marketshare, having short bursts of peak performance on six cores is perfectly fine for compiling/coding/browsing workloads.

You'll have a hard time convincing me that sustained 100% cpu tasks should be run on portable hardware. Use remote desktop/SSH and a VM/Mac Pro if you need to hit maximum TDP for long periods, RDP has great in-house latency and has the added benefit of your lap not becoming lava.

There's a much better pattern for these tasks, and it isn't using hardware designed to be portable. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

⬐ MaupitiBlue

You’re holding it wrong.

⬐ teh_klev

> long running workloads typical for media producers

But aren't MBP's pitched at these types of users as the tool for this type of job? I mean, if you look at the blurb at https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/ it's pretty much the selling point.

We may know better because we like to understand the underlying tech. But pretty much every content and media producer I've run into over the years isn't that interested. Pretty much in the same way that I'm really not that interested in how my old field engineer company motor's mechanicals work as long as it didn't break down 400 miles from home.

⬐ cronin101

I agree that this is shady marketing.

However, like I said, there are superior solutions available for these content/media producers.

Am I supposed to feel bad for them not optimising a tool that is apparently critical for their throughput and suffering mediocrity as a result?

There's an information asymmetry here and if they don't put the effort in to squeeze extra performance out of their equipment then either:

A) Someone who is putting this minimal effort into actually choosing the best tool for their job will usurp them with greater productivity.

B) Render times really aren't a bottleneck compared to the struggle of coming up with content ideas/filming the actual content -- slightly longer running tasks while people slack off and drink coffee are just fine.

I suspect it's actually the latter hence this is really a non-issue.

⬐ jackpeterfletch

This is a little facetious.

Linus Media Group have a small render farm, and don't render on any ultrabook, let alone Apples. Its not like they don't know there isn't really the expectation to be able to do that a full speed.

I can completely understand why Apple have gone for the 'provide burst capacity, but keep quiet for as long as possible' route. If you looking to tilt absolutely max performance out of a piece of silicon you just don't buy in that form factor. Linus misunderstands the market, not Apple.

This has been avoided in the phone because Apple are not constrained by what Intel hand them in that space. Maybe things will change with an ARM MBP?

⬐ jackpeterfletch

They have to drop the obsession with with CPU temperature too.

The 'gamer science' scene is obsessed with it, but cooling a processor to 40 degrees for the most part is just a waste of energy, which in a battery powered laptop, is important.

The reality is that these chips will run at 95 degrees for decades.

⬐ rhinoceraptor

> The reality is that these chips will run at 95 degrees for decades.

Not if the keyboard breaks first :)

⬐ 0815test

> The reality is that these chips will run at 95 degrees for decades.

That tends to be less and less true as semiconductor feature sizes decrease - there are thermal runaway phenomena that can absolutely threaten long-term endurance in CPUs, GPUs or other electronic components. At temperatures as high as 95C, you'll also have to worry about endurance in the packaging, due to e.g. thermal stress. This is a genuine issue and the gamers are quite right in being concerned about it - in fact, their rather extensive experience with running stuff in out-of-spec, "overclocked" conditions means that they can speak with some authoritativeness here.

⬐ johnklos

Macs are a subset of OTHER PCs? Or are they saying that Macs are slower than Sprint PCS?

⬐ ChrisRR

For those avoiding clickbait titles, this is about thermal throttling.

I was genuinely fascinated by the number of people that were surprised when the i9s in Macbooks were thermally throttling. Additionally I ended up in a bit of a reddit argument with someone who was adamant that the ipad pro can maintain max GPU output without active cooling.

I guess no matter how much people understand tech, we still want the biggest specs in our computers, even if we sometimes choose to overlook the actual limiting factors.

⬐ commandlinefan

I just upgraded to a MacBook at work - I requested an i9, but they downgraded me to an i7 because they’ve had too many bad experiences with the i9’s overheating and having to be sent back.

⬐ ChrisRR

Just out of interest, why did you request the i9? I'm not having a dig at you, I'm genuinely interested.

⬐ commandlinefan

I just picked the top-of-line everything - I wanted to keep myself as future-proof as possible.

⬐ ngcc_hk

I heard other notebook also has issue. Just too thin. True?

⬐ martin_a

Well, what are your options?

Either move away the heat, which needs things like heatpipes and fans and stuff that dissipates... or create less heat.

So if you've got no more place for bigger fans, more heatpipes, more surface area to dissipate heat, you can only start to create less heat by throttling your chips.

I think if MBPs were 5 mm thicker, you would have no heat problems at all because you could just build them different.

⬐ ataturk

This is hilarious to me because all those new muscle cars with like 700hp are doing a variation of this same thing--the engine makes big hp but the automatic trans and the electronics pare it back down to actually manageable levels. Big hp is worthless, iow.

⬐ ahje

Communication is the key. Thermal throttling is a no-brainer for people interested in tech, but the vast majority of people still expect their new computers to outperform the previous ones vastly, even if they're switching from a powerful desktop workstation to a fancy laptop.

Make sure laptop manufacturers actually tell people about things like this and give it five years or so. After that, people should have gotten used to the fact that a new computer probably isn't twice as fast as the previous generation.