HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Oh boy, do you know that device manufacturers are actually refusing to repair plenty of devices - I am not talking about warranty shenanigans, but refusing to repair for any money at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

I have taken my A50 to Samsung, and they are not fixing it no matter how much I pay them. On my Withings smartwatch the glass cracked, and was considered under warranty. They explicitly told me it is unrepairable, and replaced the watch with a new one! How the Fk are they unable to replace glass on a watch?

Just about everything has already became either unrepairable, or uneconomic to repair, from fridges to TVs to phones to smartwatches. The are a few exception like vehicles or large equipment, but the events so far indicate that people will buy unrepairable equipment because they have already done so in many industries. Consumers generally have no way to know how repairable something is, especially for a new product.

Lastly, a device does not have to be completely unrepairable - it could require absurdly specialised and expensive equipment, that only the OEM will ever afford, so you will be back at the monopoly problem.

⬐ rascul

I worked delivery in the past at a big box home improvement store. Samsung and LG fridges, if anything happens (such as the ice maker stops working), in some cases the otherwise perfectly working fridge is just thrown out and a new one is shipped. Somehow it costs less that way, I was told.

⬐ spicymaki

I had a slightly different issue. I had a Samsung Smart Watch (Samsung Gear Live) the charger was a cheap custom POGO pin cradle. After a month of use the cradle assembly cracked. I contacted Samsung for a warranty repair and they were going to charge over $50 to replace. I decided not to get it replaced and sold the device on eBay.

Couldn't they just use a standard USB micro interface or Qi standard charger?

I have not purchased a Samsung device since.

⬐ abawany

I guess usb might have compromised water proofing but certainly a qi charger interface makes a lot of sense.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

>The are a few exception like vehicles or large equipment, but the events so far indicate that people will buy unrepairable equipment because they have already done so in many industries. Consumers generally have no way to know how repairable something is, especially for a new product.

But this is only because people have no choice but to buy unrepairable fridges and phones. If people could buy repairable ones then that would factor into brand reputation and people would buy the fridge or phone that's got 3% lesser specs for the same price for the peace of mind that being able to repair it in the future brings.

⬐ negative_zero

To play devils advocate: It might just not have been possible. The only way to "repair" many devices today is put a whole new PCB in Perhaps ypur A50 was no longer stocked or made. Does your "pay any price" include 100k%USD to spin up a whe production line and its supply chain to make 1 replacement PCB for you?

⬐ ben-schaaf

The problem with the imac pro repair is not that apple couldn't repair it, they're perfectly capable of doing so, it's that they refused to. Under right to repair Linus would have been able to purchase replacement parts and either repair it himself or get it repaired by someone professionally. You've given a perfect example of a case where right to repair is absolutely necessary.

There's plenty of devices that are still (with some effort) repairable. And there's plenty of consumers who take repairability into account when purchasing, like me and probably yourself after your experience with the A50. Also it's difficult, but the A50 is certainly repairable: https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Samsung_Galaxy_A50

You should check out Linus Sebastian's experience with his broken iMac Pro screen.

He wanted to pay for the repairs, and Apple refused.

He then tried to buy the parts separately, and apparently if you got them from Apple, it would cost more than the computer was worth.

He eventually managed to source the parts through various people at a reasonable cost and repair his broken iMac with Louis Rossman.

Here are some of the videos (I'm sure I missed a couple, but it's a very interesting series of videos)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdwDvz47lNw

No, it does not happen with the iPhone or most other Apple products. They are incredibly hostile to 3rd party repairers.

Apple is notoriously draconian about ensuring that 3rd parties are blocked from accessing schematics and repair manuals. I'm talking, they threaten lawsuits to anyone publishing schematics, and there is no legal way to obtain those schematics unless you're an Apple authorized repairer - in which case you'll never need them because your job is just to replace entire logic boards after minimal diagnostics. This creates enormous waste and costs a lot more than an actual repair would. In some cases they don't even do that and just tell the user tough shit, get a new device.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

⬐ coaxial

That video was fun, thank you.

⬐ jnaina

>No, it does not happen with the iPhone or most other Apple products. They are incredibly hostile to 3rd party repairers.

Clearly you have not been to Asia. Plenty of 3rd party iPhone repair shops. Very easy to get batteries and cracked screens replaced.

⬐ adossi

I wager dollars to donuts that those "3rd party iPhone repair shops" are not authorized by Apple

> I'm an Apple fan because I don't need to repair the device

Given that Apple has no data recovery service for any of their products (even if you tell them that you'll give them a limitless pile of cash) and that they solder storage into most of their devices (that is paired to the CPU -- so you cannot remove the flash chip and put it onto a working board to recover data), this is a very bold claim.

Maybe you don't need your phone to be repaired when it is water damaged and you can no longer get photos of your children (that you should've backed up, but didn't). Maybe you want to pay US$300 to replace an out-of-warranty phone when the only thing wrong with it is that a headphone jack got stuck inside the port[1]. Maybe you don't want to pay more than the device is worth to fix a brand-new device[2].

Apple devices aren't just hard to repair, Apple as a company is anti-repair -- and defending this practice is not a reasonable position to hold. I understand arguing that Apple products are easier to use, or that they are more consumer-friendly, or that consumers shouldn't have full control over their devices because they'll probably brick them, and so on. But arguing that them being irreparable is a good thing is not justifiable (even if you don't need your device repaired, someone else will, and out-right ignoring that is misinformed).

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR5ZUl0Q-NI [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

⬐ tekknik

Apple has had iCloud backup for some time now, including cloud camera rolls. For your second source there, this is pretty common practice. You take the device apart and damage it in the process then why should the company stand by that? They have to worry about legal issues because the fine consumers sue them for every little thing they do, therefore as a result they cover their own ass. Sony is also a big offender here, they won’t repair a playstation that you’ve attempted to mod. Your first source is just some guy talking and nobody has the time to watch that BS

⬐ cyphar

> Apple has had iCloud backup for some time now, including cloud camera rolls.

This doesn't help someone who never set up iCloud, has forgotten their password and/or methods of recovery, or any other list of problems. iCloud is a form of backup, by the way, and I specifically mentioned people that didn't set up backups. If you think I'm cherry-picking or coming up with some imaginary position, watch some of Jessa Jones' videos[1]. Many of her customers are in a position where they need data on their phones, and it's not in iCloud.

> You take the device apart and damage it in the process then why should the company stand by that?

They wouldn't repair it at all -- they were willing and wanted to pay for the repair. There were many arguments online why they didn't want to repair it (including that the Apple store couldn't get the parts from Apple, they weren't certified to repair it because they were still on the certification waiting list, etc). And of course you can't buy replacement parts because it's Apple (though eventually they managed to get replacement parts, it definitely was not by following the rules). Other manufacturers don't act this way.

> fine consumers sue them for every little thing they do

"little things" like manufacturing defective keyboards and denying that it's defective and refusing repairs or returns until enough people get together to sue them so that they fix a defective product? Or "little things" like using the wrong kind of capacitor near a GPU, causing GPUs to fry in almost every edition of the Macbook -- prompting recalls (or as they call them: "extended warranty programs") only after lawsuits?

I can't imagine why consumers would ever sue such a lovely company. /s

> Your first source is just some guy talking and nobody has the time to watch that BS.

The tl;dr is that 3rd-party (unauthorised) repair shops appear to be far more knowledgeable and reasonable about repairing iPhones and other Apple devices than authorised repair shops. If you'd like the longer form summary, watch the video.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjp41qeXe1o_lp1US9TpWA

⬐ FussyZeus

> This doesn't help someone who never set up iCloud, has forgotten their password and/or methods of recovery, or any other list of problems. iCloud is a form of backup, by the way, and I specifically mentioned people that didn't set up backups. If you think I'm cherry-picking or coming up with some imaginary position, watch some of Jessa Jones' videos[1]. Many of her customers are in a position where they need data on their phones, and it's not in iCloud.

So if you use the device incorrectly, it doesn't work? How exactly is Android better if whatever you happen to need is stored on the device and not an SD card?

⬐ cyphar

> So if you use the device incorrectly, it doesn't work?

[EDIT: Apparently iCloud backups are enabled by default since iOS 9. TIL.]

iCloud is optional, is it not? The last time I used an iDevice (maybe 6 years ago) I didn't set up iCloud and I don't remember being forced to use it -- has that changed? If it is still optional, then I don't see how not using iCloud is "using the device incorrectly". Is this the new "you're holding it wrong"? Or "you should've bought AppleCare"?

Of course people should have backups, but I'd like to see you tell someone they should've known better when they've potentially lost their child's baby photos, or photos of their recently-deceased child. I'm not sure you'd be capable of being so callous in that sort of situation.

> How exactly is Android better if whatever you happen to need is stored on the device and not an SD card?

With most Android phones (such as Samsung ones) you can desolder the flash chip from the device and solder it onto a known-working board (or place it in a device that acts as a known-good board -- those devices can be bought from China relatively cheaply).

With iPhones you cannot do this because the data is encrypted and paired with the CPU (and a few other components on the board are paired to the CPU like the SMC). Now, you could reasonably argue that this is for security, but you couldn't argue that this is not anti-repair.

In addition, the new Macbooks have their soldered-in SSDs paired to the CPU as well. So you can't do data recovery on those without fixing the board (and apparently on those devices if a single USB-C controller dies, all of the USB-C ports die -- so you have to bring the board back to a completely working state in order to do data recovery).

⬐ FussyZeus

Ok so are you arguing to Joe Public or for Dave Hacker? You can't have it both ways. Somebody who can desolder and resolder a flash chip to a good device isn't likely to forget their freaking iCloud recovery questions or password. Conversely, someone who does or rolls without iCloud isn't likely to have the skills to recover data in this way.

⬐ cyphar

> Ok so are you arguing to Joe Public or for Dave Hacker? You can't have it both ways.

I'm arguing for Joe Public. Whether or not you can desolder or resolder a flash chip impacts whether Joe Public will be able to find a repair shop (run by a Dave Hacker) that can recover his data -- I wasn't arguing that Joe Public should be desoldering chips from his phones motherboard.

There are repair shops that recover data from Apple devices, but the fact that the chip is paired to the CPU means that (in the case of water damaged devices) you need to get the board to boot successfully with a working touch-screen in order to pull the data off via USB. If the CPU is dead then your data is gone, even if the flash chip is still fully functional. If you had the same situation with a Samsung device, you can remove the flash chip and place it into an "enclosure" that pulls the data off without needing to fix the broken phone.

And I completely agree that pairing the flash chip to the CPU is more secure against attackers taking your data if they've got hold of your phone. But it does mean that the phone is inherently less repairable -- which consumers should be aware of because it does affect them (even if they are just "a user").

⬐ greenleafjacob

Since iOS 9 it continuously backs up to iCloud by default [1] so it's not true that it doesn't help someone who never set up iCloud.

As an iPhone and Macbook user I agree with you that repairability is an issue. To be honest it is something I am taking seriously in my next laptop purchase and might be the issue that tips me back over to PC/Android. I definitely will not be "upgrading" to the new touchbar, keyboard and trackpad.

[1] https://medium.com/@nweaver/the-in-security-of-icloud-backup...

⬐ cyphar

> Since iOS 9 it continuously backs up to iCloud by default

Oh, I didn't know that. I haven't used an Apple device in more than half a decade.

However, there are still many people that use the data recovery service offered by people like Jessa Jones -- so I imagine that this is still an issue people have even with newer devices.

⬐ zeveb

> Apple has had iCloud backup for some time now, including cloud camera rolls.

I believe Apple have the ability to read any data in an iCloud backup. The data on my phone include my password file, encrypted with an easy-to-type-on-a-screen-keyboard password, which means that it's not a high-entropy password. There's no way that I would allow a cloud provider access to that file.

Note, Apple do say on https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 that it's all end-to-end encrypted and they cannot read the backup, but they also say 'To access your data on a new device, you might have to enter the passcode for an existing or former device,' which implies that if one loses a device then one can buy a new device and enter the old device's passcode — which means that Apple themselves could just try passcodes iteratively.

If it's possible for you to restore data from a lost device without typing in a high-entropy password, then it's possible for Apple to read the data without guessing a high-entropy password.

⬐ dpkonofa

Total 100% nonsense.

Apple's not going to violate the trust of all of its users by iteratively guessing each user's passcodes. Don't be silly.

Apple can't read your data even if they want to and the device itself is programmatically locked after a set number of attempts and wipes itself after several more. Stop spreading FUD.

⬐ fpoling

I use iPhone SE and my fingers are relatively fat. Yet I have no troubles to enter the strong password on the phone. Or do you mean that you do not use Touch ID?

What kind of pro computer doesn't come with top notch support?

"Apple REFUSED to fix our iMac pro" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

"The Apple Store Genius Bar broke my $5000 iMac pro" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_NRcy5mxU

⬐ wilsonnb2

It's unwise to extrapolate that the iMac Pro doesn't come with top notch support from a single instance of bad support.

I side with Apple in the Linux Tech Tips issue, though. They're under no obligation to fix it after he broke it by intentionally violating the terms and conditions.

⬐ ropeadopepope

Those aren't even close to the only two issues reported. They're just the most visible.

I think that's Louis Rossman narating.

Also watch Linus' take on Rossman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE&feature=youtu.be...

⬐ nicky0

Not the Linus I was expecting.

⬐ hit8run

Whoa I also bought an iMac Pro but not being able to get it repaired makes me quite nervous.

⬐ BugsJustFindMe

> "And you know what else is interesting?! Mack Wel-

Nope. Goodbye.

⬐ chrisseaton

I don't get it - they broke the computer didn't they? So why is this Apple's problem to fix it?

He asks 'how the fuck does that even work?' well they just don't offer that service. If they don't want to provide a service when there is no contract, then they don't want to end of story. You can't just demand someone does a job for you that they don't want to.

⬐ garyfirestorm

I think you're legally required to provide service in certain parts of the world. What if your car manufacturer refuses to provide you new radio (if the older one goes bad). That would be unacceptable. So is this.

⬐ perl4ever

I'm positive that a replacement radio is not available from the manufacturer for my car. Of course, it's 30 years old...but there has to be a limit somewhere.

⬐ mrguyorama

Car companies are required to provide OEM replacement parts for a certain time scale (possibly 5 years?). I imagine that law was put in place for exactly the same reason as this situation.

⬐ petercooper

I don't get it - they broke the computer didn't they? So why is this Apple's problem to fix it?

Can you imagine if a car company tried to pull this? Oh, your car is broken, we don't sell parts, you gotta buy an entire new car everytime. Hmm, no.

⬐ chrisseaton

Right but there's a law about that for cars. There isn't a law about it for computers.

I can understand him wanting them to service it. I can't understand him being indignant that they don't want to and seemingly not being about to wrap his head around that fact.

⬐ konart

That's not about a demand. That's about being client-oriented.

If your dishwasher breaks - you can easily find a company or a guy who will do the repairs. Same should be here. Apple doesn't want to do it? Okay, but there should be no problem finding a 3rd party who will do the job. And the whole problem in this case that you simply can't find one because of all Apple's "we won't sell you parts\we will void your license" etc bullshit.

⬐ joshstrange

Good god... This guy is so annoying and the obviously staged shots acting like it was happening in realtime were cringy. This would be an interesting story if it wasn't so staged and the main "actor" wasn't yelling at the camera the whole time.

I'd like to take this guy's side but he is so unlikable and with the level of "production" going into this video I'm honestly not sure what to believe here or how much he skewed the facts (not saying he did but he does seem like someone who would do that).

⬐ jbawgs

Linus' whole schtick is cringiness, but I do enjoy his channel in general. I've never known if them to intentionally lie, and when they've been mistaken they make corrections.

⬐ syshum

it is like watching a train wreck, or video on /r/roadcam....

You want to stop watching, but you cant...

⬐ TazeTSchnitzel

He's not an actor. Linus is the head of the company who runs the channel — and also its original host.

⬐ Rjevski

I do hate it too; feels like I'm watching one of those stupid teenager/fake "prankster" vlog channels.

I sometimes see an interesting video title from him but don't even bother because I know it's gonna be 90% bullshit drama/useless scripted backstory and 10% actual tech.

⬐ rasz

You are right on the money. Exaggerated face expressions, yelling, fake drama, multiple 'live' takes, scripted 'spontaneous' videos. Its pretty much a reality tv show for young boys.

⬐ hahainternet

Is it appropriate for you to be trying to attack the guy's credibility?

Seems odd that it would be the first and only response given this video.

⬐ joshstrange

I’m not attacking his credibility, I’m calling it into question. If you produce a video in a reality-tv/anger-inciting manner then I’m not going to take it at face value without knowing more.

⬐ syshum

Then you should spend a few minutes investigating the person before questioning his credibility

a cursory look at the channel will see this type of over acting is common for the channel.

While he is over the top, I do not doubt that Apple Refused to repair their device for their "customer" that is standard apple anyway. Apple has always been about consumerism meaning they want you to buy new devices not repair broken ones. Their policy is "If its not Warranty, buy a new one", and even under warranty it is mainly REPLACE not repair.

⬐ boneitis

I think it is super fair for the toplevel guy to question it.

Linus had extremely humble beginnings and had done incredibly useful, applicable consumer research for our[the consumers he was targeting to] sake. Most of my information came from his channel when I built my PC a couple years back.

As with all channels trying to be commercially stable, sponsorships, endorsements, advertising, and such will run its course.

These days I don't bother to check in on Linus' Tech Tips precisely because of how commercialized and out of touch they [PRESUMABLY] have become.

It's just unfortunate that tech products are constantly iterating and coming out with new gen products all the time.

Another, unrelated-but-very-relevant-to-the-discussion channel that will still be relevant today I'd say would be the Brothers Green cooking channel. Check it out!

⬐ boneitis

That is, when I say "relevant today", I mean another channel that has undergone the same criticism we are talking about but whose content [within the older videos] still remains relevant, as opposed to that of Linus' Tech Tips.

⬐ dddw

yeah well, for a youtuber it aint that bad. I suspect he's a decent guy.

⬐ meikos

He runs a video production company lol, there will def be production value

⬐ freshmint

The video is rather cringe worthy but if you can get past that, the story that is trying to be told is rather worthwhile. Assuming that what is being told is truth it is silly that in 2018 finding parts to our electronics is still so difficult. Having repaired my fair share of iPhones and iPods those devices life span has increased significantly due to non-apple parts from eBay and the like. I can not begin to count the number of times I had to tell people that some parts can not be sourced to repair a very expensive device that is still very much usable if repaired.