HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

Tax policy, i have no idea... there was a newsstory here about a globally minimum 15% income tax here, that would probably solve many things. I'm not a tax lawyer, but "there surely has to be a way" (hopefully) to collect tax where the money is earned, and not where it's "moved".

I'm not sure about US laws, but here in slovenia, there are a bunch of bureaucratic requirements, things that need to be paid, taxes that have to be paid, even if you just started a business and literally earned zero money. Taxes, pension and health insurance are theoretically defined as percentages of earned money, but have hard minimum set in, so if you earn very little money the first few months, they can be higher than the money earned. Just to start a business, you have to register it's location, and if you live in an apartment building, you need permission from all your neighbours (even if you're a programmer, or even a construction worker (= don't work at home)), and one grumpy neighbour means you need to rent out a place. Permits for regulated businesses are also expensive.

There is also no "soft-start" for going to unemployment to a business owner... if you're unemployed, you get some money (social benefits). Want to start a business.. let's say translation (just need a laptop), you immediately lose all benefits, and have to pay ~400eur per month minimum for health and pension insurance, even if you earned zero money that month. Fail, and want to close the business? You might not even get unemployment/social benefits, because you didn't get fired but closed it yourself. Want to do a one-time job (eg. unemployed and someone wants to pay you to paint their house)... impossible to do here.

I've been watching louis rossman a lot, and he has more us-specifc complaints: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oDjSoic9Zk

⬐ 71a54xd

I've met Louis in person, he's truly a standup guy with a heart of gold. That said, he needs to pony up and get a lawyer. Making petty arguments on YouTube isn't going to help you with bureaucracy it's only going to make things worse. If government employees (state or otherwise) hate one thing, it's being called out point blank for how they either a) don't do their job or b) are effectively worthless.

To be frank, I don't see why Louis hasn't left new york / the east coast yet. I was unfortunate enough to move to NYC just in time for covid. I still enjoyed my time in New York but I really understand a lot of what Louis has been saying about the city itself. Subsequently I left. He clearly hates the business climate, makes weekly videos about how much NYC sucks. Maybe for his own health it's time to move to another state?

⬐ devwastaken

He is leaving, they're planning to move to Florida, or another suitable area.

He's big enough now that yeah, he needs lawyers on retainer. Part of the video is to show just how insane cities are, and how they don't play by the rules if you don't litigate. This isn't how any of it is meant to work. If Louis is successful in his move, no doubt others will follow.

⬐ warent

I remember him saying in another video that NYC is going to become basically a ghost town in a couple decades if this kind of behavior from the government (along with its failure to fix the real estate problems) keeps up. It's curious to wonder if that is accurate. Only time will tell I suppose

⬐ 71a54xd

Yeah, I'm working remote for the current startup I work for (which used to have offices in NYC). Basically my deal was, I'm leaving until there's an office because my lease is up and I'm not signing a new one if there's no office. Because, why live in NYC in a box if there's no office (which I did for all of 2020). I've been interviewing and somewhat considering moving back to NYC for a nice pay bump, but even though I hate WFH I'm now considering cutting the process short and just looking for remote gigs.

I'll miss my friends I made there, but prices are already going up and since I usually like to have side-gigs it's clear that NYC is going to make that difficult as well. I hate this because I did really like how easy it was to be social in NYC, even post covid. But idk, seems like an idiotic move given how shitty the trajectory still looks for the city.

⬐ paulgb

> I usually like to have side-gigs it's clear that NYC is going to make that difficult as well

I'm curious what you mean by this? Are you talking about gig-work side-gigs and the city is clamping down on that?

I have my personal biases but I actually think the trajectory for the city is pretty positive. All the people who didn't actually want to live here can work remote jobs elsewhere, making room for people who want to have a world-class arts/food/entertainment/etc. scene at their doorstep. I know people who have left since the pandemic and people who have moved here, both groups seem happier for the change.

⬐ philistine

That's obnoxiously self-centered to say that if the city government doesn't fix your personal issues with it, one of the five biggest metro area in the world will become empty in decades. Sure, New York could lose the ability to maintain a vital and legal small business sector, but the city is not going anywhere. The worst that could happen is a period similar to the horrible 70s, with difficult finances and poor opportunities for people, until the city gets its head out of the sand.

⬐ EricE

New York State and California have lost enough population that they are likely to loose at least one representative in the house of representatives.

This "too big to fail" argument is BS - they are failing and once cities start to go into death spirals they can accelerate in astonishing ways.

And just to make things extra spicy, thanks to COVID job mobility has never been greater. This isn't your fathers economy. Any of these cities taking anyone for granted do so at their own peril. San Francisco's insane policy of supporting shoplifting up to $900 has caused Wallgreens to pull out entirely, Target closes at 6PM now - what do small businesses do where their only locations are in areas afflicted with these sane policies? When losses exceed revenue they go out of business. As if COVID wasn't bad enough :p

⬐ consumer451

> … they are failing …

Do you have the data for this? I just saw a story showing that CA flight is largely a talking point more than an actual phenomenon. Would love to see the numbers here.

⬐ BrandonM

https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/2020-Migration-Trends-U...

> 2020 Migration Trends: U-Haul Ranks 50 States by Migration Growth

...

Growth states are calculated by the net gain of one-way U-Haul trucks entering a state versus leaving that state in a calendar year. Migration trends data is compiled from more than 2 million one-way U-Haul truck customer transactions that occur annually.

...

California ranks last by a wide margin, supplanting Illinois as the state with the greatest net loss of U-Haul trucks. California has ranked 48th or lower since 2016...

⬐ not2b

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this appears to be a common mistake; they aren't reporting a per capita number, but a total number. When this happens, California will rank near-first (most of a good thing) or near-last (most of a bad thing) because it has the largest population.

⬐ BrandonM

Doesn’t the higher population affect both numbers? More UHauls are leaving CA than entering, even if both numbers are large. I think I see what you’re saying, that if you normalize per capita, they could be anywhere in the “net leaving” cohort. But it’s still a high number of UHauls going out for 5 years running.

There might be other factors. Maybe people leave CA with more belongings than they arrive with. Maybe new CA jobs pay for relocation, then people eventually do a self-serve move out of CA.

Still, I found it to be an interesting data point. The UHaul outflow date starting in 2016 corresponds to the SALT deduction reforms and the worsening annual fire conditions. Both seem like plausible “tipping point” factors to kick off an exodus, among other commonly cited issues.

⬐ rm_-rf_slash

New York’s population loss isn’t coming from downstate, it’s people leaving dying economies in the southern tier and north country and not coming back.

⬐ gamblor956

California is a huge state. And led the US economy during COVID. And had the largest and fastest post-lockdown recovery. Oh, and during that time actually strengthened its position as the world's 5th largest economy.

Yes, SF is having serious, self-inflicted issues. But SF/tech is actually a tiny portion of the CA GDP (since most tech revenue a la Apple doesn't actually get booked to CA). CA either leads the nation or is in the top 5 (states) for the following industries: movies, video games, manufacturing, agriculture, tourism, aerospace, biotech, government contracting, and energy.

⬐ woah

The Walgreens shoplifting seems to be more of a problem for Republicans hundreds of miles away than it is for actual Walgreens locations in SF.

⬐ busterarm

You mean the Walgreens locations that remain.

Walgreens closed 17 stores in SF in the last 5 years. The on-the-record reason given for the closures, in statements to the city council, is petty theft.

CVS is closing stores in similar numbers and has stated that SF is "one of the epicenters of organized retail crime". In many instances the stores security guards were physically assaulted.

⬐ pfranz

Last time I heard this discussed the number of closures over the past few years were in line with their national average.

⬐ busterarm

Yeah, but the overwhelming, landslide majority of their store closures are in poor areas. That's not SF.

⬐ dangus

I’m skeptical about this reasoning that the company supposedly provided. I don’t think we should assume that they’re under any obligation to tell us the truth about why they’re shutting locations.

I think the real reason is “Amazon, Target, and dollar stores are eating our lunch.”

Without the attached clinics and pharmacies I don’t think Walgreens/CVS have a strong business to begin with.

This publicly-facing explanation puts all the blame on others, not their own store management. Not their understaffed, dumpy stores with high prices and bad products.

Can you think of a single product category that Walgreens or CVS does better than its equally convenient competitors?

⬐ jonas21

Both New York State and California grew in population between the 2010 and 2020 census (by 4.25% and 6.13%, respectively [1]).

They will each lose a seat in the house because they grew less than the U.S. as a whole (7.35%) and due to rounding.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_census

⬐ esyir

Growing less than the average is pretty much shrinking though.

⬐ rabuse

Detroit is a prime example of failed industry, and horrible leadership.

⬐ billytetrud

You seem to be massively misunderstanding what he meant by "basically a ghost town". All he meant is that lots of people will leave, opportunity will be reduced, etc. You seem to be taking it far too literally.

And no, it's not obnoxious or self centered to say that if the NY government doesn't fix it's massive number of problems that bad things are going to happen. It seems pretty clear that's the case.

⬐ otterley

Using the right words is the responsibility of the person uttering them. Expecting others to read your mind is unrealistic.

It’s better to say what you mean than expect others to figure it out.

⬐ billytetrud

Communication is a two way street dude. As a speaker, its your responsibility to consider your audience when encoding your thoughts as incredibly inefficient, verbose, and imprecise human language. As a listener, your responsibility is to consider the speaker and what they mean in their context. Its also your responsibility to clarify things that you think its possible that you have misunderstood. It is of course the speaker's responsibilty then to double check that you've understood things if they get the chance.

⬐ otterley

I think we should expect better use of vocabulary from the audience at HN, who tend to be better educated than the general population. Expecting people to say "people will become discouraged and leave" instead of "NY will become a ghost town" -- when the former is what they actually mean -- is not unreasonable.

Sure, I will concede that it is the listener's responsibility to seek clarification when responding to an ambiguous statement or claim. But here, there was no ambiguity, just hyperbole.

Hyperbole is used far more often here (and on the Internet in general) than it ought to be. We can, and should, have nuanced discourse here. Let's keep the bar high.

⬐ billytetrud

I understood him perfectly well. Why didn't you? I think you should become more aware of your own flaws instead of blaming others.

⬐ otterley

That's unnecessarily provocative. Check your insults at the door.

⬐ 71a54xd

This is the kind of comedy gold I come to HN to read XD.

Who should we contact in the state directorate to qualify our grammar and arguments to ensure they aren't too jovial or clever?

Where can we purchase carbon ESG credits for our malfeasance?

⬐ billytetrud

Its not an insult. But feel free to take it the wrong way. I just hope that next time you violently disagree with someone, you stop and think "what are other ways i could interpret this that make more sense?"

⬐ otterley

You keep placing the responsibility on the wrong person. Worse, you're assuming that the person you're speaking to doesn't know their own flaws. That is insulting.

I don't know what else to tell you.

⬐ billytetrud

Maybe you have more flaws than you think mah dude.

⬐ dang

Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. We're trying to avoid this here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ dang

Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. We're trying to avoid this here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ 71a54xd

Yep, what OP is getting at is that in time, as a side-effect of out-migration the cool things that draw people to NYC will start to slowly disappear entirely. The small bakeries, the things that bring charm to neighborhoods all over the city. Safety is by far the biggest one. Chelsea is legitimately a dangerous place to walk around and I've lived in pretty seedy areas before, especially in college (where my neighbor was robbed at knife-point and my apt was broken into by heroin addicts multiple times).

What he means is that the people who remain will be those who are too poor to leave. Whom will be slowly replaced by wealthier and wealthier transients. Which is sad, by far the worst kind of gentrification.

⬐ heavyset_go

> Yep, what OP is getting at is that in time, as a side-effect of out-migration the cool things that draw people to NYC will start to slowly disappear entirely. The small bakeries, the things that bring charm to neighborhoods all over the city.

You don't need any kind of net migration to do this, gentrification has already done it over the last 20 years. People who move there now don't care about that, though. They care about the city being Disneyland for rich people.

⬐ hguant

>The small bakeries, the things that bring charm to neighborhoods all over the city.

You're starting to see this in bits and pieces already. New rental space is primarily going to chain restaurants and box stores because the rent is too damn high for anyone not corporate to get started. _The Atlantic_ was talking about the issue of lots going vacant for months at a time because the owners are holding out for insane lease prices...in part because they need to pay insane taxes on the property.

I love New York (in small doses) but it's not tenable as it exists right now.

⬐ addicted

All of this is wrong. Leaseholders are holding out for higher rents not because of taxes but because of property values and the corresponding loans they have.

If they rent out something for a discount, it will read to a reevaluation of their entire property, which would then lead to them being underwater and impossible for them to borrow more money.

This is true not just in New York but all of the US where property owners are heavily indebted and rely on debt to both grown and maintain their businesses.

Having to default means that they basically can’t borrow anymore and can’t continue their businesses.

It has nothing to do with taxes, which would drop if they rented out their property for less.

⬐ devwastaken

As Louis has shown a number of store fronts have simply closed shop, and the landlords don't care to fill the spot. Some have just outright sold their buildings and they just sit there without occupancy for years. It's a very unnatural market that shoos away normal people that don't have a few million lying around.

I don't believe NYC will ever become a "ghost town" but it certainly will look more like a pale grey image of brick and mortar where you just live in a box, go to the office, and repeat.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

Not every city is like this. Rich cities that can systematically screw people and get away with it are like this because business like this one aren't a large enough overall part of their revenue stream for them to care about.

Poor cities can't systematically marginalize small business without hurting themselves enough to be held accountable so they don't generally do this kind of thing or when they do they fix the system quickly.

⬐ EricE

Indeed - but even "rich" cities aren't totally isolated. I'd encourage people to watch some of Louis's other videos where he roams the streets and even the national brands have pulled out of NYC - but the amount of vacancies overall is pretty astonishing. Between the "summer of LOVE" and COVID it's been a pretty harsh one/two punch and there is already a significant momentum that has started of resources pulling out of the city - and once these trends start they are pretty damn hard to reverse. NYC is only rich if there is commerce for them to tax.

⬐ 71a54xd

Yep, I was in NYC for about a month prior to covid and throughout 2020. Small business is absolutely decimated and last summer was truly one hell of a cluster-fuck. I witnessed first hand, the police doing nothing as huge stores were looted. Louis is also correct about NYC basically being a place where it only makes sense to live there if you're insanely rich. $180k minimum to even have your own place that isn't a box.

I will say, some of Louis' videos are a bit disingenuous, there are still some things open some of NYC still isn't that much of a shit-hole. Granted, even with all of this, there have been times where I've gone to meet people in Union Square park or grab dinner on the Upper West Side and I'm sad I can't do that anymore. It's weird.

Which goes to show, that NYC is truly the physical embodiment of a love hate relationship.

⬐ KittenInABox

I'm in the same situation but I'm not earning 180k, I live just fine in my apartment and don't consider it a box (I am also a minimalist and don't have any hobbies that take up space). Small business around me that relied on working commuters were decimated but small business that relied on actual working folks living in nyc are just fine and the summer is actually booming.

I would say nyc is always what you make of it and what kind of lifestyle you want to lead. It's certainly not a place for people who want yards for example.

⬐ xdrosenheim

I remember seeing a video by Louis, where he talked about speaking to a lawyer. He was told to pay a fine, instead of going through the legal trouble. It would be both easier and cost him less, because it would probably happen again, and then he would have to lawyer up again.

⬐ Craighead

Good, run away.

⬐ xemdetia

In other videos (especially for the prior license issue about resell of used goods vs. the repair license) he does seem to talk to lawyers who are familiar with the city rules but has reported not having great avenues to success. The problem seems genuinely tied to some parts of the city government still assessing fees/fines/so forth, but the COVID rules are preventing escalation/remedy in person in a meaningful way and the only way to get traction is to do so. The general vibe he's been putting out across the last couple months is just that he's feeling like he's getting shook down since in his perspective he's holding his end of the bargain with paying for licenses yet can't get the city to hold theirs.

⬐ Aromasin

He mentions in his videos that it is largely because he has built up a team of people with a very specific expertise built over years working with him, that you can't just find - meaning training people up from scratch. He'd effectively be started the business from scratch in that case. He's offered them all very good relocation benefits but obviously if people are content they're not going to want to move and he doesn't want to forcefully coerce them to.

⬐ sangnoir

Why would you move from a city in which your skills are in high demand, and you already have a rolodex of clients with whom you have established a relationship? The relocation benefits have to be obscene to counter that glorious opportunity.

As long as New Yorkers still exist in their dense millions, service providers will always appear to fill a market need, even when they have to jump hoops (to a point). NYC knows this. China knows this.

⬐ genmud

I believe a large portion of his business is now mail in repairs vs walk in repairs. Laptop repair also isn’t something that people have a regular customer base to rely on, it is very inconsistent. Rent and taxes in NYC are a massive amount of money, I’m sure he has ran the numbers to determine what’s best financially.

⬐ sangnoir

Mail-in repairs require a lot more trust than brick-and-mortar locations, especially for new operations. I can accept that moving out of NY may save him money - my argument is that the same is unlikely to apply to his workers who have a specialized skill that is in demand in their current location. Would they choose the job over the city (and their friends, neighbors, leases, etc)? I have my doubts.

⬐ systemvoltage

I love this aspect of USA. Hate the gov? Move to another state. It’s not easy and slightly prohibitive, but less prohibitive than moving to another country.

It also encourages states to compete with each other, try new ideas and attract businesses; for e.g. Arizona and Southwest chip industry: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-southwest-is-americas-new-f...

⬐ fallingknife

> Making petty arguments on YouTube isn't going to help you with bureaucracy it's only going to make things worse. If government employees (state or otherwise) hate one thing, it's being called out point blank for how they either a) don't do their job or b) are effectively worthless.

Don't talk about the problem or the useless government employees will retaliate. How do we get rid of them?

⬐ dylan604

> makes weekly videos about how much NYC sucks.

This coule be part of his appeal to his followers. If he left NY, then he'd just be an outsider complaining on the internet about something he's no longer affects him. Plus, you can dislike the bizenv, but love other aspects of the area.

⬐ elihu

> To be frank, I don't see why Louis hasn't left new york / the east coast yet.

He mentions in the video that he's working on setting up another site, but he has employees in New York that don't want to move and he doesn't want to throw them under the bus by closing his New York location.

⬐ vernie

He hasn't left because he's a run-of-the-mill NY jerkoff.

⬐ None

None

⬐ crispyambulance

> Maybe for his own health it's time to move to another state?

He's doing just fine. His youtube rankings are pretty "up there" for that genre of channel. There is no way to know how that compares to the repair shop, but I suspect it's at least a comparable income stream.

He makes 1st person videos of himself riding around Manhattan on his bike, free-associating and showing abandoned store-fronts BECAUSE it gets clicks-- otherwise it would be a waste of time. There's libertarian edge to it all. It looks like the commenters are heavily populated with red-state doom-scrollers rubber-necking at the "downfall" of NYC.

If Rossman would move out of NYC to somewhere else, he wouldn't have as much grist for the youtube channel, would he? He would have to go back to making strictly repair videos, loose his whole staff, and probably have less volume in his repair business as well.

⬐ kmeisthax

Louis Rossman is one of the few people on YouTube who has over a million subscribers, but less than 1% of them actually watch his content. His YouTube rankings are "up there" because of off-platform factors - i.e. him heading up the Right to Repair movement and getting lots of subscribers for that. If he actually tried to monetize his YouTube channel he'd make very little money, because his videos are nowhere near as popular as you'd think. (Yes, he has talked about this.)

You are correct that Louis has a right-libertarian mindset, but I'm going to disagree with you on the "he just shows abandoned storefronts so that right-wingers can circlejerk about the downfall of left-wing urban centers" thing. He's a business owner in NYC, so he sees a lot of bureaucratic incompetence and is willing to complain about it. Like I said, YouTube isn't his actual career; this comes straight from his lived experience in the same way that his Right-to-Repair lobbying does. He's equally willing to shout and scream about landlords jacking up rents, too, despite it being ostensibly "free market"; because it directly harms him and his business.

And yes, Rossman is specifically planning to move out of NYC. Like I said before, he genuinely does not give a shit about his YouTube channel or selling outrage bait to conservatives. Hell, for a while he literally had a banner baked into every video asking people to watch on Vimeo instead of YouTube.

⬐ 71a54xd

Yes, but he's also made numerous videos about how he makes less than a pittance of income from YouTube. Yes, the doom-scrolling applies here, but he's from New York originally and you can tell the amicus is how a place he grew up in is still going down-hill.

I was in NYC for all of covid and can confirm that Fox News is full of it when it comes to "rampant crime in NYC" however it's not a perfectly rosy picture either in terms of the recovery of small business and character of the city.

⬐ slibhb

> Making petty arguments on YouTube isn't going to help you with bureaucracy it's only going to make things worse.

Looks like you were wrong, from the linked video (an hour ago):

> Thank you to everyone here who made a fuss, as I doubt I would've had someone on this case this quickly otherwise. The emails & calls I received this morning from the city made me feel like a customer at the Hilton... which I don't gotta tell you is NOT the way I usually feel when contacting NYC government bureaucracies.

Apparently dealing with the NYC government is like dealing with Google. When they screw up, your best bet is to complain loudly in public and hope your complaints go viral.

⬐ 71a54xd

:cryingemoji: someone on the internet said I was wrong :(

⬐ sanedigital

I tell anyone who will listen: stay as far away from NYC and NYS as you can when you're operating a business. The bureaucracy is insanely complex and both governments harbor a very strong anti-business sentiment.

NYS charged my previous, 2-person, zero employee agency a $14K fee for not having a Workers Comp policy, even though having one isn't necessary for member-managed businesses. We sent in paperwork demonstrating our case and they didn't care. They kept asking for more proof that we didn't have employees—even though they had no evidence that we did have them. A bit hard to prove a negative!

After several years of back and forth, we finally just said forget it, closed that entity, and started ignoring the monthly shakedown notices. Now I'm wary of even having clients in NYS.

[Edit: I've heard CA is similar, but don't have personal experience there.]

⬐ erdos4d

I've heard a lot of similar stories about NYC (less for NYS) and I am always wondering what the end game is for these guys. Do you feel like someone was trying to get you to bribe them or something? Absent that, I have a hard time understanding why they would be so persistent in going after you in such a chickenshit fashion.

⬐ toss1

I heard some years ago from someone who used to work there that Cisco simply refused to bother doing business with New York State - simply would refuse to bid - because they found the entire process to be literally not worth the business.

(no other verification, no info on the current status)

⬐ andrewmcwatters

NY and CA make it clear enough to the rest of us by the fees for starting a business, let alone the operating risk.

⬐ seriousquestion

To wit, CA charges $800 PER YEAR to have an LLC. For many small one person LLCs, that $800 a year makes a big difference. $8,000 over a decade.

⬐ borski

FWIW, as of 2021, the first year’s franchise tax fee is now free: https://www.llcuniversity.com/california-llc/annual-llc-tax-...

(But I agree with you, and would file an LLC in DE or elsewhere, unless I plan on raising funding in which case it wouldn’t be an LLC but a DE C-Corp)

⬐ gamblor956

If you are physically located in CA (i.e., living there) you will still need to register as a (foreign) LLC in CA. In fact, it's generally a rule almost everywhere in the U.S. and Europe that the physical presence of employees engaged in business activities requires a local business license.

⬐ athms

All limited liability entities doing business in California must pay the franchise tax. Also, the first year waiver is only for domestic companies, those organized in California.

For a California resident trying to escape the expense, you are going to spend more money by creating your LLC in another state.

⬐ borski

Good point!

⬐ gunapologist99

Wyoming. Low fees, no taxes; it trumps DE in every way except investability (and perhaps the ecosystem, but it's getting there fast)

⬐ devoutsalsa

Isn’t the main reason people like Delaware because the corporate law is very well understood? There’s case law going back hundreds of years. What does Wyoming offer that trumps that?

⬐ borski

This is correct. That’s why people pick DE.

⬐ systemvoltage

The argument I hear from folks in CA is that people who own LLCs are already rich and they can afford $800. This is exactly the attitude that makes people move out of CA. It is ridiculous taxation and government fees for pushing papers. It would be far better to let people start companies for free and then pay whatever fees after generating $1M revenue. You know, after they're "Rich". SMH.

⬐ hguant

It's frustrating seeing the rhetorical tricks people pull - "these regulations exist only hurt/harm the rich!" - when common observation shows that no, they just prevent people from becoming rich. The poor have nothing, the rich have more layers than God, so the middle class gets the shakedown.

⬐ gnopgnip

The $800 fee is a minimum tax for the year, not an arbitrary fee, it is credited against other taxes you owe. To that end, most businesses with employees or substantial sales won't owe anything extra. It is waived the first year in most cases, so it isn't a short term problem for new businesses. There are other business structures for a company besides an LLC if costs like the registered agent, the tax complexity, the minimum franchise tax are an obstacle.

⬐ systemvoltage

Straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/business/types/limited-liability...

So even if you have no income or a loss, you still have to pay $800 tax. That seems ridiculous. Many have said that the term "tax" is inappropriate and instead should be a fee (which can be tax deductable), but wait! There's more. There is also a LLC fee which is waived for <$250k revenue but increases there after. Note - all this taxation and fees is in addition to state income taxes. Experts also say that the "LLC Fee" should be called "LLC Tax". California has an absurd level of taxation for someone who wants to open "Hannah's Illustration & Painting LLC".

Given how it works in states like Nevada and Arizona ($50 flat one time fee, no minimum LLC tax or fees), California goes on a limb to intentionally make sure your little LLC suffers as much as possible: http://www.incorporatecalifornia.com/callctax.html

⬐ gnopgnip

This minimum tax is not a separate fee owed on top of the corporate tax. For example California requires S corporations or LLCs electing to be taxed as an S corp to pay a 1.5% franchise tax on income, with a minimum tax of $800

⬐ hogFeast

It also entrenches inequality. Design a system that assumes everyone is rich, poor people can never rise.

As someone not from the US, this aspect of the US has always amazed me. There is huge regulation on business at the state-level, particularly SMEs, but the US has a functioning economy somehow...do the rich just incorporate in Delaware? It is amazing to think that the US has succeeded in spite of significant efforts to fail. Introducing flat fees on business creation is tying a noose round your own neck economically.

⬐ systemvoltage

You cannot look at this myopically - there are many areas of CA's policies, especially in the 1970's through 90's where the "Silicon Valley" name originates from. There is a lot of inertia from policies - like stopping a massive locomotive - and just because the policies are less steamy, it still takes a lot to stop the train. Labor pool has a magnetic catch-22 effect.

I've incorporated 2 LLCs in the past (not in CA) and it was literally a 10 minute job. Costs $50 one time fee. No recurring fees at all. Mostly online, albeit have to print out a form and mail it to the Dept of Revenue, but don't need to queue up anywhere. Opening a bank account is straight forward and takes 1 day.

There is also a lot of variation from state to state - ironically, the red states have better policies for inequality for businesses. Low regulation in this area helps the "small guy/gal" get their feet wet without much hurdles. I strongly believe in regulation based on thresholds of how large/monopolistic/oligarchic companies get. Regulations should be designed in a way that promotes methodical canopy growth but not completely cover the seedlings that are hatching on the ground.

⬐ andrewmcwatters

That’s not ironic, it’s common knowledge.

⬐ athms

>...$800 PER YEAR to have an LLC.

This franchise tax is required by any type of business entity offering limited liability. Besides a limited liability company, this includes corporations, limited partnerships, and limited liability partnerships. You can avoid this fee if you have a sole proprietorship or general partnership. Additionally, non-profit corporations that have a tax-exemption from the IRS are also exempt from this fee.

⬐ None

None

⬐ ecshafer

Why was this downvoted by people. Seriousquestion raises a good point. $800 a year is a massive cost. Lets say the llc is a cleaning service, and they are only pulling in $20k a year anyways. Operating as an LLC is 1/20th of their income to do it legally. This is a valid point, and is on topic.

⬐ athms

Can we stop with the hyperbole?

The fee isn't that much for California. I could see it as expensive if it was in a cheaper state. Also, if somebody is only making $20K annually running a cleaning service in California, they need to run it as a sole proprietorship, find another line of work, or move to a different state.

I made $15K in the late 1980s in California while living paycheck to paycheck. I don't see how anybody can live on $20K in 2021. This hypothetical person would make more money working at McDonald's.

⬐ andrewmcwatters

Yeah, “back in my day when cars cost a fraction of annual income and houses rained from the skys,” isn’t useful commentary. $800 is a few months car payment for the average person. $800 is cheap rent. $800 is food for a month. $800 is hardware that lasts you a decade.

Not sure what world you live in, but $800 isn’t the privilege of having a row in a database then having the state tax you on top of it.

⬐ athms

For the idiots down voting me:

The California state minimum wage is $13 for employers with 25 or less employees, $14 for employers with more than 25. A person would make more money working full time at a fast food establishment than running a cleaning service if their are making only $20K annually. You would have to go back several years when the minimum wage was less than $10.

I ran a consulting business for years as a sole proprietor. It is a viable operating entity, especially for one person. I also had a business liability policy, which you will also want as a single member LLC. It is actual quite easy to pierce the liability protection that an LLC offers, especially for single member companies because many people intermingle assets and debts, such as when personally guaranteeing a loan. If you injure somebody while on the job or engage in professional malpractice, the LLC shield won't protect you. And finally, fraud; if you are using the LLC as a buffer to commit illegal acts, a court will find the company is nothing more than your alter ego and hold you personally responsible.

If you are a software developer, run your business as a sole proprietor until you are ready to sell your product or hire employees, then convert the business to an LLC. You will still get the first year waiver.

⬐ gnopgnip

It isn't an $800 charge, it is a minimum of $800 in state tax. For an actual business with $20k in revenue the cost is much lower than $800, maybe zero

⬐ seriousquestion

You would think so, but it is an $800 charge even if you make $0.

This yearly tax will be due, even if you are not conducting business, until you cancel your LLC.

https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/business/types/limited-liability...

⬐ rewgs

Incorrect. I own a single member LLC in CA and very simply must pay an $800 charge to operate. This is a charge completely separate from taxes owed.

I know because for a couple years I didn’t owe any state business taxes and thought I didn’t have to pay the $800. I was wrong and had to back pay those charges plus interest. It sucked.

⬐ aylons

What you say in the second paragraph seems to confirm what the parent comment says.

⬐ _archon_

It's a fee separate from state business income tax. Possibly deductible, but separate.

⬐ sanedigital

Unfortunately, a lot of first-time entrepreneurs don't know these things and register wherever they live. And even if you register in another state, you still have to abide by NYS/NYC rules if you operate in those regions.

⬐ andrewmcwatters

Similarly, there’s often little to no benefit to incorporate in Delaware for small businesses, but too many assume it’s a good idea. In fact, for most small businesses, you’re worse off.

⬐ fridif

And if your business requires a physical presence in NY or CA, such as for a simple plumbing business, it might even be required to form in NY.

⬐ seibelj

Boston is not much better. I have been trying to get hold of someone to move a bureaucratic process forwards, that only this department can do, for 8 weeks now. Letters, emails, voicemails, nothing can get someone to reply or call me back. Absurd.

⬐ ilamont

City or state government?

My least favorite Mass. business experience this year was the complete fuckup with the Dept of Unemployment Assistance solvency fund. My DUA tax rate went from 2.5% to 7.5%. Frigging legislature and state government had no clue that this was coming, and left small businesses like mine swinging in the wind.

https://www.masslive.com/politics/2021/04/some-massachusetts...

But frankly this is nothing compared to doing business with the U.S. government through bids. Never, ever, ever attempting that again.

⬐ vincentsaulys

is that 2.5/7.5% rate on the employee's salary or your revenue?

⬐ seibelj

Mine is city, section 8 housing. Trying to do a paperwork thing for my tenant and we did everything required on the deadlines but no one has ever contacted us and the new website they created is stuck on “Step 3” of 6 of the process. Not really sure what will happen when the deadline passes, hopefully they will be ok. Just nutty.

⬐ Alex3917

> even though having one isn't necessary for member-managed businesses

Don't you have to waive it in advance though?

⬐ vincentsaulys

Somewhat off-topic: do you know of any good resources to read about these sorts of requirements for NYC or the US more broadly?

Most sites gloss over these sorts of legal requirements.

⬐ sanedigital

You didn't at the time. The reason we got flagged was because we started talking to insurers about adding a policy at one point in anticipation of hiring.

⬐ cwkoss

What a racket?! So the insurers send their list of failed leads over to the regulators so they'll get fined?

⬐ dakial1

Complex bureaucracy is not because of anti-business sentiment, it is a business model. This system is kept because it probably sustains a whole economy of intermediaries (either doing legal, grey-area or illegal/bribery work) and the key public machine figures responsible to make it leaner get some benefit out of it.

⬐ borski

CA makes mistakes, but not generally very long-term. They’re also quite responsive - I’ve never had a situation in which they didn’t respond, except for the FTB which can take a few weeks or months depending on time of season (similar to the IRS). Every other agency is, well, still a government agency… but tends to be responsive at least.

⬐ gamblor956

[Edit: I've heard CA is similar, but don't have personal experience there.]

Have personal experience with CA. It's not at all the same. NYC is a nightmare to work with, but CA agencies are quite easy to work with. The only other jurisdiction as bad as NYC is the state of Hawaii.

Other than during the tax filing season I can reach a live human at a CA agency (except the DMV) within a few minutes just by calling. Representatives are very helpful over the phone, and I've resolved many issues for clients and my employer (now that I'm in-house) just by calling.

CA's bureaucracy looks complex, but it's actually very easy to navigate, and if you need help, there are a great many government employees who would be happy to help.

⬐ xibalba

Issues like these are why many people conclude it’s best to reduce the size and power of government. The incompetence and apathy in this small, city level bureaucracy is akin to lighting taxpayer money on fire. Now scale that to huge society-wide government initiatives and departments and you have an awe inspiring level of waste.

⬐ abyssin

Reducing the size of the government wouldn’t solve much, though, and it would rather make it even more disappointing. This kind of malfunction almost looks like some people in power are ok with leaving the impression the government is impossible to fix, and its size should be reduced.

⬐ nemo44x

Except for it's NYC which means I can assure you the people in power love government and would love more of it and think they're actually doing a good job.

I think what you get in places with limitless opportunity like NYC is the people attracted to government are either not able to cut it in a city like NYC (hence why government employees there are generally incompetent and indifferent) or see the immense wealth as something they can latch on to and exploit to satisfy their hunger for power over other people.

⬐ syshum

It is almost like monopolies are universally bad, and when those monopolies also have a monopoly on the initiation of violence, and can send armed men to our home or business to make you comply with their orders reasonable or not, results in bad outcomes every time

⬐ niij

When people say reduce the size of the government they're not saying just get rid of the people who can issue the permits. They're saying to get rid of the permits altogether. You shouldn't need the government's permission to fix computers.

⬐ syshum

It still baffles me that people see stories like this, and desire to have government take over more and more of their life.

In this instance it is business license, now image you need a hip surgery and you have to schedule that with the government....

⬐ vkou

> It still baffles me that people see stories like this, and desire to have government take over more and more of their life.

What's baffling to me is that people making your argument seem to forget how poorly people are treated by the private sector.

> In this instance it is business license, now image you need a hip surgery and you have to schedule that with the government....

I haven't had to schedule a hip surgery with a government, but a government has also never sent me or my wife a surprise, erroneous $4,000 bill for what was a fully covered medical procedure (that in any other country would cost half as much) that then took two months and a lot of high-blood-pressure games of telephone to reverse.

My parents and grandparents have had to schedule surgeries with a government, though. They get a date, they show up, they get the surgery, they get discharged, no bullshit, no surprise bills, no worrying over whether or not you actually owe money, or are just getting shaken down...

I suppose I could only go in for treatment with care providers that don't fuck around with medical billing. Unfortunately, I am not aware that there is a single healthcare provider in my area who would pass that low, low bar.

⬐ syshum

>>My parents and grandparents have had to schedule surgeries with a government, though. They get a date, they show up, they get the surgery, they get discharged, no bullshit, no surprise bills, no worrying over whether or not you actually owe money, or are just getting shaken down.

Your parents experience, and my parents and grandparents (when they were alive) experience with medicare seems to be massively different. You do know that medicare does not cover 100%, and there is tangled web of Part B, Part D, Part E, Part Z coverage that cover some things, not others, and no one can ever tell you what is covered by who with private insurance and government all pointing fingers at each either....

and that is with getting into the fact that more and more private doctors are refusing to take medicare because of low reimbursement rates and slow reimbursement rates so you have to go into a big network or hospital network not a local small doctor office

⬐ vkou

> Your parents experience, and my parents and grandparents (when they were alive) experience with medicare seems to be massively different.

My parents live in Canada, where none of the problems you've cited apply, because it doesn't have a private insurance and care sector of any note to screw up matters of billing and coverage.

⬐ sumedh

> you have to schedule that with the government.

or you could schedule it with the hospital and dont pay any fees because its covered under healthcare like what happens in other countries?

⬐ totony

>hip surgery and you have to schedule that with the government...

Funny that you mention this. My grandpa is waiting for a hip surgery which can take from 1 to 2 years of waiting (according to my grandma). He's barely functioning and had to wait 3 months for a cortisone(?) injection. This is in a public healthcare country.

⬐ EricE

If you listen to the phone call he had with that organization - the level of apathy and incompetence is breathtaking. That whole conversation reeks of an organization that has never had to be accountable to anyone for anything. You'd think people would at least have some basic professional pride but here we are.

⬐ nvilcins

And the best part is - the citizens (who are impacted by this directly or indirectly) are paying for this.

⬐ MisterTea

It would be nice to post a text summary so those of us who don't want to waste time sifting through a 17 minute video can get a summary and decide to keep reading/watching or move on.

⬐ tw04

He's complaining about the NYC licensing bureau sending him a letter about renewing his business license when he already did it last June. I didn't watch the whole thing either because I didn't find it particularly interesting. I'm assuming the license is supposed to be good for more than one year given his rant, which means he probably just got the mailer by accident and is making a clickbait video.

⬐ gregorymichael

No, having worked with others going through the same issue -- the NYC beauracracy for local businesses is truly broken and terrifying for small time operators.

⬐ treeman79

Actual serious question. Are bribes a part of the picture of getting things done?

Met people who talk about greasing the wheel to get things done. But won’t say more.

⬐ MisterTea

In the past, yes, bribes were a thing. I went to Edison HS in Jamaica and our shop teacher told us stories of bribing clerks to get permits faster. E.g. in-ground pool permits took years to get through so he said a crispy $100 would get your paperwork moved to the middle of the pile.

I used to work with a truck driver who knew how to properly grease the guys running the loading docks at the Javits center (slip a $20 into your paper work.) Though he said it only works with "older guys who've been around and know the game." That saved us 2-3 hours of waiting, we go into a dock right away, truckers watching us were pissed we skipped the line somehow. This was about 15 years ago though.

Though nowadays I hear those practices have mostly gone away. Of course we have no real way of knowing.

⬐ handrous

In The Wire, Season 2, automation & computerization threatening both dock jobs themselves (through greatly increased efficiency) and opportunities for relatively small fish to make a little extra on the side (though much better tracking), is a pretty big part of the plot.

⬐ busterarm

Grease doesn't work at Javits anymore and the wait times are now 8hours plus.

⬐ MisterTea

Figures. This was around 2005/6.

When we went in the office he said it might not work as the younger guys "don't play the game" but then saw an older guy at one desk and said "That guy right there." Dude pages through the paperwork, sees the $20 tucked and clipped, says "okay looks to be in order. You're going to loading dock so and so." I think we waited in the truck for 5-10 min before we were called and the driver ahead of us didn't look too happy.

That mentality is from the old mob days. Thankfully mostly a memory.

⬐ bananabiscuit

Yes. At least in the construction and waste management industries bribes are very much a thing, though you will never hear that word actually spoken.

Waste management especially is mafia territory, if you don’t know the right people and make sure they get something out of your operation, you can count on getting shut down for breaking the same rules that every single one of your competitors also breaks.

⬐ TuringNYC

>> Actual serious question. Are bribes a part of the picture of getting things done?

Yes, and they are called "Expeditors" and "Expeditor Fees" and in some cases "Campaign Contributions". In real estate for example, "Expeditors" magically make all sorts of things happen, not happen, go away, by virtue of "Expeditors Fees"

⬐ crmd

Yes, but you don't pay off the inspectors directly. You pay the money to one of a dozen or so "expeditor" firms[0] that are typically staffed by ex-municipal employees who make money in retirement by filing permits on behalf of people. They claim it's not grift to help people make sure the forms are completely properly and don't get put at the bottom of the pile by current municipal employees.

[0]https://www.gcexpediting.com

⬐ gregorymichael

My guess is most bribes take the form of campaign contributions, and are out of reach for a coffee shop doing $150k/year in revenue.

⬐ renewiltord

Yes, contrary to what sibling comment says, bribery is the normal way to do this. It is usually performed through someone called an “expediter”. They know the right people and the right sequence of actions required.

SF planning and permitting is another example of this.

⬐ klodolph

I haven't heard any rumors to that effect. I've talked to small business owners who have gotten fined for various infractions in NYC, just casually, and my impression is that it's just bureaucracy in action--lots of rules, randomly enforced by people who individually interpret them one way or another.

For example, a store selling used equipment was fined for not individually labeling the equipment as used. All equipment in the store is used, it's all outdated stuff, and it's completely obvious. But one day someone from the city shows up and levies a fine. So now this scuffed, obsolete gear from the 1990s has a "used" sticker on it.

⬐ ihatethissite

There is a summary in the description of the video.

⬐ limeblack

It's in the comments.

⬐ tyleo

I don’t think this is true. At least on iOS I only see links to more videos in the description.

⬐ aacook

This guy operates a much-loved cell phone repair business in NYC. NYC requires businesses pay for what looks like yearly licenses to operate. The licenses must be clearly displayed on the wall for inspectors to see. He renewed his license June 2020. The agency failed to apply the $350+ renewal fee to his profile. Now they're demanding payment for something he's already paid. Their phone support isn't helpful, they don't respond to emails, and even though the pandemic is over they don't allow in-person visits. He can't use the same renewal pin to pay the license twice. The owner has his payment receipt hanging next to his license from last year (which they took 4 months to send him after payment), but predicts some government stickler will walk in next month, see he lacks the actual license (which he did pay for), call the Marshall and put locks on his business forcing him out of business and putting 14 people out of work.

⬐ aacook

This guy operates a much-loved cell phone repair business in NYC. NYC requires businesses pay for what looks like yearly licenses to operate. The licenses must be clearly displayed on the wall for inspectors to see. He renewed his license June 2020. The agency failed to apply the $350+ renewal fee to his profile. Now they're demanding payment for something he's already paid. Their phone support isn't helpful, they don't respond to emails, and even though the pandemic is over they don't allow in-person visits. He can't use the same renewal pin to pay the license twice. The owner has his payment receipt hanging next to his license from last year (which they took 4 months to send him after payment), but predicts some government stickler will walk in next month, see he lacks the actual license (which he did pay for), call the Marshall and put locks on his business forcing him out of business and putting 14 people out of work.

⬐ callamdelaney

There isn't

⬐ EricE

It's in the pinned comment at the top.

⬐ darrenf

Currently (2021-07-12, 14:46 BST) the description is nothing but 3 other YouTube links.

⬐ scrose

As someone whose gotten pretty involved in advocacy work in the city, this is the sad chain of events that I can imagine might work(Probably not within 30days though):

1. Contact the local community board where the business is and try and speak during public hours during a meeting. Let them know the situation, point out how badly it's impacting business and see if they can reach out to their contacts to get a direct contact. Attendance and representation at these meetings skews heavily towards older wealthier people, so they likely have much more experience working within the system.

2. NYPD reps usually show up at CB meetings. After you speak, talk to one of the NYPD reps and get their info in front of everyone. If you go directly to the precinct there's practically a 0% chance anything productive will happen(especially because you can't legally record anything in a precinct anymore), but the reps they send to CB meetings have to look like they're doing something and will likely give you a card with their personal email and phone number. If you send an email to them about the situation, you'll have another form of documentation to put up, even if they do nothing to help directly.

3. Contact your local councilmember's office via phone. YMMV, but I was very surprised how receptive mine was to complaints I had and how quickly they were able to get some situations resolved after a few emails.

⬐ metalliqaz

why would NYPD have anything to do with it?

⬐ scrose

They are typically the main group of people who enforce laws in NYC, and operating a business without a license sounds like something they’d come in quick to shutdown. They were also the ones who originally came to his place to handle a separate ‘incident’ that he was fined for that he discussed for several minutes in his video. So instead of waiting for them to come by and find an excuse to shut him down or fine him again, it’s better to have written communication with the precinct captain to fall back on that explains his case.

⬐ r00fus

Seems like #3 is the only real timely approach.

I have reached out to my representative (either local or federal) and have gotten meaningful responses and in several cases, they took action that successfully helped to resolve the issue (in one case, someone held in border detention, in the other case a local french preschool that was in threat of going out of business due to some fire code misunderstanding).

It's not a sure thing but it's has a good likelihood of results.

⬐ andrewmcwatters

I don't think people as many people realize this as they should, but when your local government is so incompetent they can't get back to you in a reasonable time, you're basically fucked.

You almost cannot ever meaningfully sue them.

Almost all national governance has sovereign immunity, and only occasionally relinquishes a portion of it to physical damages.

⬐ boredwithlife

You can always vote with actions: either ignore the gov and practice business without their permission or start murdering a few of the less productive government employees to motivate the others to actually work.

⬐ eplanit

The solution: leave New York. The idea of having to get permission to operate a business (unless it causes pollution, etc.) is anti-American. Don't accept such rules, and move to where that kind of nonsense doesn't happen. Vote with your feet/wallet.

⬐ chias

And the 14 people that he employs?

⬐ theandrewbailey

I watch Louis' channel often, but I don't recall him mentioning what his employees think (only that they exist). For all we know, they might be as fed up with NYC as Louis is.

⬐ pdq

Watch the video from this HN story.

Louis explains the exact reasons mentioned: some of his employees have families in NYC and he doesn't want to force them to move.

The implication is he's going to convert NYC to a remote shop, and move the main shop out pretty soon (likely to Florida). Employees can choose to stay or to be relocated to the new location.

⬐ chias

Being fed up with NYC is one thing.

Telling your wife and kids that you know they have friends and relationships and a school they are used to that they're moving a thousand miles within the next three weeks, and you're sure your kid's best friend or your teenager's boyfriend or your wife's book club will be fantastic penpals is quite another. And that isn't even touching on family ties.

I have a friend who moved to Portland recently. Ended up moving back three months later because his very young child couldn't handle not being able to spend time with his grandparents. People develop roots, and do not transplant easily on a timeframe measured in weeks.

⬐ emmelaich

The author's pinned comment:

To answer some common questions:

a) I have already emailed & called, and I patiently await a reply... b) You can't re-renew with a 13 month old PIN if you already renewed. c) You can't show up in person without an appointment. d) Appointments are only granted by means of contact that don't reply. e) Yes I have two other licenses that AREN'T expired, but those are useless, they are for selling laptops, not fixing laptops, which I don't do anymore anyway after the city was unable to give me a straight answer on how to do so without being fined: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8_9WGk3Ok - I need this license in the video to be able to actually do repairs. f) Just listen to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8_9WGk3Ok This is what I am dealing with. After 15+ minutes and being transferred to two people, they can't answer a basic question about a rule they fined me for breaking that they can't even explain. They never emailed or called me back, which has been the behavior I have come to expect over the past nine years.

I am serious, if you work for the city and have any way of applying my 13 month old payment to this license renewal, you have the gratitude of myself & 14 of my employees who will get to continue paying their rents, mortgages, & food bill for their kids.

In spite of what people think, I am not a millionaire. If I'm forced to close - I can't afford to pay these people. I do not want that to happen.

I am not meming, I never get responses to DCA emails - not 3 months ago, not for NINE YEARS, and I don't expect to be able to now. Since I cannot sort this out in person due to the COVID closures, this channel is my only hope of reaching someone who can help me sort this out.

Thank you.

⬐ johnnyfived

I can't speak much for living in other states, but the state government of New York is incredibly slow and unresponsive at best, and at worst purposefully designed to be be a labyrinth with as many blockers as possible to reach someone. I can't imagine being part of an older generation and not as tech-savvy trying to receive help over the phone or online, whether it's from contacting unemployment, business licenses, the council, etc. They make it next to impossible (just look online about trying to get a human on the phone, if you just kept calling and didn't know to seek outside help from people who already have figured it out, you could literally never end up contacting someone).

The fact that they tax so aggressively and I've paid so much over the last several years living here really pisses me off. If you do need NY's state government help they are not there for you, and they don't care about you. But they'll gladly keep taking your money.

⬐ jimmaswell

I grew up here and I agree. I lived elsewhere for a while and it was amazing having something approaching freedom for once, no crazy gun laws and taxes and even the DMV was better - no crazy long forms with redundant/unnecessary information, just put some stuff in a website then walk in with your documents. No unnecessary inspection and other stickers cluttering up the windshield either. Last state didn't even make me mail the plates back like NY would so I got to keep them as a memento. NY is additionally the only or almost only place left to not allow those little gas pump flaps that keep them on when you walk away.

I unfortunately had to move back for a family issue but I can't wait to get out again. I think next time I might get some nice land in Wyoming, about as opposite NY as you can get.

⬐ freedomben

All the recent evidences that any large organization will screw you over through technology and neglect, and the only way to get justice is to beg for it on social media and hope your post goes viral, does not fill me with optimism for our future.

⬐ Wowfunhappy

This is probably naïve, but my initial thought is that if he already renewed his license a year ago, he should be all-clear to ignore the warning message, right? If someone says he's in violation, he can point to his renewal receipt.

⬐ timtas

He addressed exactly that and said he expected the inspector would not care about the receipt and would shut his doors. This expectation is reasonable because it's totally consistent with all of his experiences so far.

⬐ sneak

My guess would be that they fine him for operating on an expired license, then he has to spend thousands in legal fees fighting it, while his business is closed in the interim. Legal fees don't care about whether you're right or not.

Ignoring the government when they are being inaccurate always ends with you losing money, not them.

⬐ Tostino

Unless you are a large enough corporation, then all bets are off.

⬐ ruste

At what point has New York violated his civil liberties through sheer red tape? Is this something the ACLU would pick up?

⬐ vkou

If the ACLU were regularly taking cases like this, I'd stop giving the ACLU money.

This seems like a problem for the private sector to solve. He should contact his local Chamber of Commerce - it's supposed to look out for business interests, after all, and for any given municipality, seems to have most of the town's politicians in its pocketbook.

⬐ gruez

IANAL, but my impression the 14th amendment seems to be one of the things that gets misinvoked all the time (along with RICO), so I'm going to guess "no".

⬐ curryst

I don't see anything in the 14th that would apply here. NYC has the right to regulate business, so they aren't depriving him of a right. A business license isn't "property", and they aren't seizing any assets. And I would guess that they aren't discriminating against him in particular; they're probably equally inept with everyone.

⬐ curryst

Likely never, at least in this manner. NYC has the right to regulate business as they see fit. I'm not aware of any laws that would require the city to issue the license or even to respond, unless they're discriminating against him in some way. I don't get the impression that's the case here.

A statement from the ACLU condemning NYs lack of action might get him the publicity to kick the city into action, though.

⬐ billytetrud

> I'm not aware of any laws that would require the city to issue the license or even to respond

He purchased a license and sent him a response as a receipt. They have an obligation to send him his license or respond or both. That is quite clear. The NYC government doesn't have the right to discretionarily refuse to fulfill the services their residents directly pay them for.

⬐ singlow

But the ACLU doesn't generally get involved in trying to battle bureaucratic incompetence. If the bureaucracy was being used to mask racism or other prejudicial policies the ACLU might be interested, but in this case it just looks like real incompetence.

⬐ billytetrud

> But the ACLU

Sure. The ACLU probably won't get involved, but the reason is not that the guy has no case. He clearly has a case.

⬐ timtas

They violated his rights when they required a license. Licensure is when the state sells you back your rights.

⬐ himinlomax

That's a weird thing to invoke.

⬐ sigstoat

closer to being the sort of thing that the institute for justice would take.

⬐ mttpgn

The ACLU selectively deploys their limited resources only on cases which they believe can have a lasting national impact on constitutional interpretation.

⬐ the_optimist

... and on promoting neoliberal ‘resistance’ cause célèbre, which varies with finances, leadership, and who happens to be holding political office. Surely positioning this licensing issue as such could almost instantly command the full weight and authority of that org.

⬐ addicted

Also, Rossmann needs to look into this:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dca/downloads/pdf/businesses/Doe...

It's likely that he doesn't even need to renew his license.

⬐ burnte

In the early part of the video he mentions that this extension has eben terminated, hence the letter.

⬐ toomanyrichies

Update- Louis Rossmann just released a 2nd video on Youtube saying his situation has been resolved and thanking the people who helped him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKSt0RrrtdA

⬐ dcolkitt

What’s frustrating about this is how indifferent people are to these institutional failures. They’ll just shrug their shoulders and say “sounds like a problem for the fat cats that run companies”.

The vast bulk of civilization runs on business. Unless you’re content with North Korean living standards you need to make it possible for people to start, run and grow businesses. A society that fails on this point is just as fucked as one that can’t keep clean drinking water flowing or achieve basic literacy.

⬐ bradleyjg

I’m not going to endorse it as a good or desirable system, on the contrary, but rather than shutting down his business this person should probably hire an expediter.

⬐ crispyambulance

What is an expediter?

I just assumed that small-businesses aren't shut down en-masse because the flip-side to impossible red-tape is lax-enforcement.

I suppose that corporate retail establishments have lawyers retained to do this stuff. Are they doing something different?

⬐ EricE

>What is an expediter?

A necessary evil and often a lot cheaper than the whole lawyer route. Can be something as benign as someone who will go stand in line and do time consuming bureaucratic queuing on your behalf all the way to folks who have relationships within the bureaucracy and can get things flowing.

⬐ foolinaround

similar to assassins, i guess they do the dirty work of greasing on your behalf, so your hands stay clean, your job gets done, and all's well in the kingdom.

Folks from 3rd world nations understand this very well.

⬐ kristjansson

Someone you’d call a fixer if they weren’t in the US

⬐ LordAtlas

A nice way to say getting someone to do the greasing palms work for you.

⬐ bradleyjg

An expediter could be a law firm but doesn’t have to be. Often they employ former city employees.

Expediters are experts at navigating the city bureaucracy and getting whatever license or permit is required. They are most commonly used by developers and bars but can be useful for all sorts of businesses.

⬐ oh_sigh

What does "navigation" mean here? How does one navigate a system if they say call or email us, and when you call or email them, they ignore you?

Is "navigate" just a euphemism for having a personal connection on the inside that you can get favors done by?

⬐ bradleyjg

As rtkwe says, it can mean a range of things. Some are relatively innocuous like knowing what form to fill out, others are borderline like having worked with the relevant people before and having built up some good will, and there have been cases of outright corruption.

⬐ makeitdouble

If we’re talking about developpers, “navigation” would be straight bribing I guess.

⬐ rtkwe

It doesn't have to be personal favors, a lot of issues are knowing who to bug, how to effectively bug them to get what you want done, and the right answers to any regulatory questions. A lot of time at work half the fight of getting something done for me is finding the right person to talk to to get the request information we need to file.

⬐ TravisHusky

This sounds like something out of a Franz Kafka story.

⬐ mattzito

Terrible that this guy has to go through this - there's a lot of terrible city agencies, and I've heard general horror stories about the DCA for years.

That being said, at this point throwing your hands up and saying "I don't know what to do, help me youtube" is the wrong way to handle this. I was going to make the suggestion about a lawyer, then I saw another poster had done so. The other route to go here is to reach out to your city council member. In NYC, there are enough city council members that they will respond to your request and someone will get back to you. They can make things happen, especially as it pertains to ridiculous bureaucracy.

In NYC, we also have a public advocate, whose job is literally to help smooth over disconnects between the public and nyc government agencies. They have a form right on their website where you can request help. Either of these approaches (or both!) would be more productive than complaining on youtube.

⬐ robocat

> youtube" is the wrong way to handle this

It worked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27813338

⬐ gregorymichael

Last year I helped the owner of my local coffee shop renew his NYC license. I've been doing web development over 20 years and barely managed to navigate their website. It took over an hour and dozens of attempts to pay a couple hundred dollars to renew one of the many licenses he needs to stay open. We moved to New York five years ago and I've come to believe the propaganda that it is the Greatest City in the World. This experience more than any other -- the hoops that every smalltime entrepreneur has to hop through -- seriously called that claim into question.

⬐ tootie

I have an easy time believing the process is complicated and probably very out of date and cumbersome, but I have a hard time believing the guy in this video about it being so impossible. The proof being that there's thousands of operating small businesses in NYC.

⬐ addicted

Louis seems to be caught up in the middle of an intersection of some COVID related issues and his own mistake for several years.

It will also get resolved and/or not matter (in that once things return a bit to normal any accrued fines/fees will be forgiven). But in the meanwhile it provides Louis, whose YT channel no longer resembles the educational/right to repair focused channel it used to be, but rather dependent on views from whining about different stuff, more fodder for views.

⬐ rabuse

How do you know they're not encountering the same issue? Louis is the only one with a large enough audience to be vocal about it.

⬐ afavour

I say this as a liberal believer in government: NYC (and NY state) make one of the worst cases for effective governance out of anywhere I’ve lived. (it’s all relative, of course: the places I’ve lived have been cities and towns in relatively prosperous western nations)

⬐ fallingknife

Guess you haven't lived in California.

⬐ wbl

California goveement workers I've had to interact with are smart and helpful and go the extra mile to let you know what you need to do. The problem is the rules they don't make.

⬐ bushbaba

To be fair the California online systems are better than any other state I worked in.

⬐ pclmulqdq

New York (the state and the city), Chicago, and California are the reasons why I will never live in a state or city with only one strong political party at this point. All of them are kleptocracies (and effectively dictatorships).

⬐ jimmaswell

I really don't think you could say that about Wyoming and many others.

⬐ kube-system

Regulatory capture definitely exists in some red states.

⬐ VHRanger

You forgot Texas and Florida in there

⬐ pclmulqdq

I've never lived in Texas or Florida.

⬐ jf22

To be honest that doesn't seem to bad. About an hour to renew a yearly license?

⬐ handrous

Clearly worse than it should be, but my experiences with health insurers and hospital billing departments made the anecdote read a lot funnier than it was intended to, for sure. "Only an hour!?"

⬐ ecshafer

The idea of a yearly license to operate a coffee shop, that requires renewal and payment, is pretty absurd in my opinion.

⬐ gregorymichael

The happy path was 5 minutes.

⬐ jf22

I agree it could be more simple an hour doesn't seem too awful.

⬐ iamtheworstdev

To renew something that is honestly no more than probably the following: (1) Update address/contact info if changed (2) Estimate earnings (3) Pay fee

Yea, I'd say an hour is too much.

⬐ jf22

This is longer than it should be but it's not overbearing.

⬐ nicky0

The real question is why does this even need a license in the first place?

⬐ busterarm

Worse still - New York is dead last among 50 states for economic recovery from covid. With NYC supposedly being the global center of business and finance. Vacant storefronts are everywhere and I don't see it getting better anytime soon. Reminds me too much of the 1980s.

I'm done. Packing it up and getting out in 2 months.

⬐ addicted

This is not even true.

New York is not dead last in recovery. It’s definitely in the top half of not better.

And to the extent the NYC economy has been damaged it’s entirely because NYC faced the brunt of COVID in the beginning snd because a larger part of its economy than many others is dependent on tourism and service industries that were most affected by Covid.

⬐ busterarm

There's multiple reports and studies on this in the last month that put New York either in dead last or second to last (after Michigan).

If you look at CNN's report, New York is doing the worst in every single metric where they compare states against each other: https://www.cnn.com/business/us-economic-recovery-coronaviru...

TOP Agency, who specialize in marketing data, put out this report putting NY second to last: https://topagency.com/report/pandemic-recovery/

Both get their data from different places and corroborate each others' findings.

I not only have data, but I live here and have been traveling the US all year. You can see this plainly with your eyeballs. The state of NY's economy is complete shit.

⬐ sandworm101

I've been following Rossmann's videos on NYC commercial real estate. It is just shocking to see how many vacant commercial properties there are on every block. His street-level videos are, imho, more telling than any professional market analysis.

⬐ failwhaleshark

It's not lying...

⬐ robfig

I have a similar (but much less severe) situation -- need to change my car registration, but my NY State online account has been locked "for security". Calling the phone number says "please use the online portal", but has an option to continue to wait for an agent. However, there is no queue, just a message that says there are high volumes of calls and try your call again. I called at various times over a couple weeks until giving up and just driving with an incorrect registration. Not ideal, tbh.

And don't get me started on the local USPS.

⬐ jimmaswell

Can't you just make a DMV appointment?

⬐ addicted

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/dca/businesses/live-chat.page

⬐ cwkoss

Rossmann got a resolution! He posted an update video an hour ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKSt0RrrtdA

⬐ dlsa

The frustrating part of this type of saga is that nothing will improve from this. It's very likely its not even due to lack of resources.

I'd be fascinated to see a journalist's investigation into why this took Louis needing to go to the internet for something essentially quite trivial. And yes, granting licenses should be regular, boring, routine paperwork.

⬐ bfung

Lucky for him, he has 1.59mil YouTube followers and the issue was resolved https://youtu.be/hKSt0RrrtdA

As he rightfully says, the process should be the same for other small businesses that don’t have 1.59m YouTube subscribers.

⬐ COGlory

LBRY mirror:

https://lbry.tv/@rossmanngroup:a/my-business-might-have-32-d...

⬐ ajoseps

Rossman posted an update indicating the issue got resolved: https://youtu.be/hKSt0RrrtdA

⬐ whalesalad

At some point you gotta ask yourself: why am I still in NY?

⬐ testrun

Fixed(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKSt0RrrtdA).

⬐ gandalfian

YouTube comments suggest people have now got in touch with him and basically fixed it. So well done him for kicking up a fuss if no way to run a system...

⬐ nodesocket

Welcome to the world of New York bureaucracy and regulation. These sorts of stories are common and it’s why businesses are always complaining about New York and California.

I used to have a California LLC. As a side note, if you were unable (forced) to operate your business due to Covid restrictions, California made no exceptions for the $800 LLC fees. It’s outrageous.

⬐ johnebgd

Insane.

I just setup a company where it will take a few years to build something in Ohio. It's $99 once and no annual fees. Zero dollars a year.

https://bsportal.ohiosos.gov/

From my non legal perspective, if you aren't yet generating revenues it pays to incorporate outside of California.

⬐ tracedddd

Only issue is if you live in California and pay yourself you’re still subject to most of the California specific business laws as a company doing business in California, so it’s difficult to escape by incorporating elsewhere.

⬐ johnebgd

If you aren't generating revenues and want to incorporate to hold the IP then why throw good money away on a state that requires annual fees? As I understand it, you can always transfer the IP to another entity before it has any market value. This can let you and others start building with a relatively low cost.

⬐ akudha

I am not the one who posted the comment above.

Whoever downvoted the comment (at the time of me writing this) above - can you add a comment why? This seems like a reasonable comment.

I see more and more reasonable comments simply being downvoted, with no reasons or counter-point provided, which is not helpful.

⬐ cmeacham98

I did not downvote the comment, but I do find it a little silly, so here I go:

1. Assuming your business is going to employ anyone at all, $800 is only 1-2 weeks of pay even at minimum wage.

2. I am not aware of any type of business California has forced to shut down completely (i.e. literally no way of making money) for the entire year.

3. If this business is just a side project you're trying out on top of your main job and it fails, you can disband it within 1 year of creation and are exempt from the fee (Source: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/business/types/limited-liability... - See section "Short form cancellation").

We could argue about whether it discourages starting small business in California, or if the CA government should have waived the fee this year to help with COVID-19; but acting like this is some insane requirement that is killing small businesses is ridiculous. Business that cannot afford this fee are already failing and almost certainly can't even afford to pay their employees. (For the record, I find it to be a pretty regressive tax, and should just be reduced to whatever overhead exists for managing LLC filings.)

⬐ ryandrake

For #1, let's not assume the business is employing anyone. Maybe it's one or two partners making no revenue, trying to develop some software on the side. I did this for a few years in CA, and the $800 was my biggest yearly expense. Flushed it down the CA toilet, just to exist.

⬐ the_optimist

Every dollar and every minute drive marginal behavior. By definition, you will never know what efforts have been killed dead by casual bureaucracy.

It’s like Round Up, except for business!

⬐ djrogers

I have a property I rent out for $800/mo for 11 months/yr, and wanted to out it in an LLC for liability reasons. At $800/yr, the LLC would be my second largest expense by a large amount, so the confiscatory fee effectively made it impossible to do this.

My only option is to use an out of state LLC, for which California gets less than nothing - not only do they not get my fee, but they get less reporting and regulatory control as well.

⬐ MrBuddyCasino

The only way is to vote with your feet, and leave former political preferences behind in the states that where destroyed by them. I've heard Texas is a popular choice nowadays.

⬐ random314

California has been destroyed?

⬐ mbfg

He has 14 employees some of which can't move. His point is he doesn't want to screw them.

The problem apparently is that the NYC has a department called the DCA, where you can't do anything without directly interacting with _people_ in the DCA, and the DCA refuses to interact with people.

⬐ amluto

I would argue that the actual outrage is the $800 fee in the first place. It’s a regressive tax that hurts small businesses and is absolutely meaningless for large businesses. CA should reduce it to some nominal value that covers their costs, e.g. $50/year. Major bonus points if CA included registered agent services so that small businesses could save a couple hundred more dollars per year.

⬐ rafale

This is what I call soft tyranny.

⬐ gumby

There’s no transcript attached to the video for some reason (and the poster frame looks like an ad). What’s the issue?

People are quoting Rossman’s YT comment but it is predicated on you knowing what his actual complaint is.

⬐ ehutch79

This all really sounds like a lawyer needs to be involved

⬐ timtas

This guy will be in Texas within a year.

⬐ srtjstjsj

Can we get non clickbait title?

⬐ toofy

is there a reason why it’s nothing but a link to a random youtube video rather than an article or something which can be skimmed?

sorry poster, but i’m not going to watch minutes of a random youtube video from a random account to decide if this is interesting or just more youtube outragePorn for the outrage addicts.

⬐ pclmulqdq

Louis Rossmann is a popular youtube creator who is a bit of a rambler, but the upside is that you can read something else while you listen to him. In the last year or so, he has done a lot of ragebait on commercial real estate and the abusive government of New York, but his original content was on right to repair, repairing mac devices, and running a small business.

⬐ nikanj

If you feel like the video needs a summary blog post, please write a summary blog post. Be a positive force, don't focus on tearing things down.

⬐ ChrisArchitect

this

v;dw

⬐ Wowfunhappy

Because the business-owner also has a popular Youtube channel. He does not have a popular blog.

⬐ danuker

Indeed. Talking into a camera is faster than typing.

⬐ probably_wrong

I agree with you on talking being faster than typing. Having said that, I feel that this is more of a reason for me (and, I assume, for the top commenter) to counterargue that it's the youtuber's job to distill the message down to its important parts. Speaking is definitely faster for him, but it requires a bigger compromise on my part - whatever amount of time he saved requires me to spend ~15 minutes for something that can be told in one.

Or to put it bluntly: if he can't take the time to streamline his message then I don't have the time to listen to all of it just in case it gets interesting at some point.

⬐ halfeatenpie

His youtube channel started out as him just rambling to the camera about his problems and how absurd it is. It's grown since then as people have been following it. His channel is basically that, him talking to the camera about problems he sees in the world. He does what he wants with the channel. I'm sure he's not going to change that format anytime soon just because he has more followers.

If you want to watch it sure. If not then that's fine. But he doesn't have to streamline anything and that might be his loss, but in the end it's his channel to do what he wishes.

⬐ mttpgn

At 3:13 in the video, he says "The absolute tl;dr of this video is if you are buying devices from customers, you need to submit the information regarding that machine and the customer to a LEED's (sp?) online database[...] We don't buy these devices." (He sells used devices customers have forfeited or given to him for free).

⬐ danuker

That's a different video referring to possibly having to fill an online form for refurbishing donated/abandoned devices.

The current video is about the incompetence/malevolence of NYC DCA.

⬐ imroot

I think it's LEADS:

Law Enforcement Agencies Data System

In Ohio, it's operated by the Ohio State Highway Patrol. I know that Chicago has their own LEADS implementation. Wouldn't surprise me if NYC has their own.

As a pawn shop owner, I have to submit the same records.

⬐ yonran

Regarding the violation for electronic records of used goods for sale, he read the summons in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=965BLLWv8h8. The citations were for Administrative Code §20-273 https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/newyorkcity/latest/NYC... (electronics record required for each purchase AND sale of second-hand articles) and Rules Title 28 §21-07 https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/newyorkcity/latest/NYC... (electronics record must be at a specified website https://www.leadsonline.com/). If he didn’t purchase second-hand devices but did sell second-hand devices, then it seems that he would be required to enter each sale transaction on leadsonline. I’m not sure whether he tried to record each sale transaction there as required by the law.

⬐ notananthem

Having worked in public sector, its laughable you blame "the government," how big it is, how corrupt etc things are. The problem is your government is just your neighbors making 25% or less of your tech salary, who have very complex rules and processes they have to follow, and it takes a lot of effort to make those more efficient. No, because things are inefficient, it is absolutely not an invitation for every shthead to offer their two cents on how to fix it. That's literally what public employees spend most of their day doing, trying to get private employees they interact with to fck off and stop "explaining" how they'd fix things.

What do you do in situations like this? Well, seeing as public employees aren't paid to watch youtube videos, you surely won't get any response via youtube viral videos. You will get people hating on underpaid public employees more, yes. You could escalate and send certified mail, have an attorney make contact, etc.

You'd be surprised to know, there isn't someone sitting on the other end trying to make things worse for you. Its just your underpaid neighbor. If you're a psychotic libertarian who is just screaming at this reply, yes, please, move somewhere with less regulation to make some sort of point, we'd all love you to move.

⬐ nicky0

The real question is why is a government license needed to operate a business at all?

⬐ KingMachiavelli

If the government can't find people to implement/understand or automate the complex set of rules then it shouldn't make the rules.

His channel is popular enough and NY is big enough there is a decent chance that someone watching will know someone who works in some government role in NY.

⬐ hudo

Apple has to be behind all this, since he is so loud about their repair policy and fixing iphones instead of sending people to buy a new one :) !

⬐ tristor

I'm guessing you're being satirical, but on the off-chance you're being serious: No, there is no conspiracy here. NYC city bureaucracy is insane at every level. This is standard fare. Louis already knows what he needs to do, but his personality bristles at being forced to do things that aren't required by the letter and shouldn't be required. He needs to hire a law firm to expedite his permits like every other business in NYC.

⬐ elmo2you

I don't know anything about this particular situation, so please consider the following purely speculative in regards to this case.

I have lived for a long time in a country where insane bureaucracy and corruption are the norm. Probably up there with some of the worst on this planet. I've also seen quite a bit of what happens behind the scenes, from relationships with what someone might call the more privileged section of society. One thing I can say with a high degree of certainty from those experiences (no, I won't talk details): there usually are strong connections between the interests of powerful corporations/entities and insane bureaucracy and corruption, whenever the latter two exist. Even if they might not be directly the source or reasons for the existence of the latter, powerful corporations certainly know how to use their influence to maintain a dysfunctional status quo and use it to their advantage wherever they see an opportunity for it.

While NYC bureaucracy no doubt exists for other reasons, it does not rule out there be something else going on here as well. Not a chance in hell anyone but a whistle-blower could ever prove that though. But that's exactly why it's so tempting for powerful entities to nurture and support corrupt/dysfunctional systems (as for them they work just fine, if not better).

I can not speak for NYC (or anywhere inside the USA for that matter), but I have seen powerful entities work officials so that the function of governments would not improve.

Of course, every American is free to believe no such things ever would take place in the USA .. however, that would certainly make the country exceptional (for a change), compared to how things works pretty much everywhere else on the planet.

⬐ dt3ft

Here is a summary from the Louis Rossmann YT comment:

To answer some common questions:

a) I have already emailed & called, and I patiently await a reply...

b) You can't re-renew with a 13 month old PIN if you already renewed.

c) You can't show up in person without an appointment.

d) Appointments are only granted by means of contact that don't reply.

e) Yes I have two other licenses that AREN'T expired, but those are useless, they are for selling laptops, not fixing laptops, which I don't do anymore anyway after the city was unable to give me a straight answer on how to do so without being fined: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8_9WGk3Ok - I need this license in the video to be able to actually do repairs.

f) Just listen to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8_9WGk3Ok This is what I am dealing with. After 15+ minutes and being transferred to two people, they can't answer a basic question about a rule they fined me for breaking that they can't even explain. They never emailed or called me back, which has been the behavior I have come to expect over the past nine years.

I am serious, if you work for the city and have any way of applying my 13 month old payment to this license renewal, you have the gratitude of myself & 14 of my employees who will get to continue paying their rents, mortgages, & food bill for their kids.

In spite of what people think, I am not a millionaire. If I'm forced to close - I can't afford to pay these people. I do not want that to happen.

I am not meming, I never get responses to DCA emails - not 3 months ago, not for NINE YEARS, and I don't expect to be able to now. Since I cannot sort this out in person due to the COVID closures, this channel is my only hope of reaching someone who can help me sort this out.

⬐ prasadjoglekar

Also call your local councilman. They have staff who will at least attempt to deal with the issue. It helps.

⬐ drewg123

This is why I think that if there has to be an unfixable Kafkaesque bureaucracy, I'd rather it be in the public sector rather than a monopoly in the private sector.

There is not much your local councilman / state rep / US Rep / US Senator / etc can do about a problem with Comcast. But I've seen appeals to elected officials fix lots of issues with government bureaucracy.

⬐ an_opabinia

> There is not much your local councilman / state rep / US Rep / US Senator / etc can do about a problem with Comcast

Because of its presence on public utility poles, there is a lot that they can do about Comcast. Many people prevail getting Comcast to do stuff by writing cities. The problem is the cushy job Comcast gives people after a long stint in government service in favor of Comcast. That shit isn’t a conspiracy.

⬐ h_anna_h

> That shit isn’t a conspiracy

What is it then?

⬐ r00fus

Corruption.

⬐ corpdrone2021

Conspiracy seem to be a type of corruption to me in many cases.

⬐ yebyen

I think GP meant to say "isn't a conspiracy theory" rather than "isn't a conspiracy" eg. that isn't some hare-brained idea that only the craziest kook would subscribe to. Conspiracies certainly happen all the time. The most successful ones are probably never theorized about!

⬐ h_anna_h

Are these mutually exclusive?

⬐ throwaway0a5e

A private sector business isn't gonna send thugs with guns to forcibly shut down your business and put you in a cage after being too incompetent to take your money, they're just gonna terminate your service and/or sue you. Which is worse is a matter of preference.

⬐ AlotOfReading

Debt collectors may not be able to put you in jail, but 'thugs with guns' can be a pretty apt description otherwise.

⬐ jmcqk6

>A private sector business isn't gonna send thugs with guns to forcibly shut down your business and put you in a cage after being too incompetent to take your money, they're just gonna terminate your service and/or sue you.

Historically speaking this is completely false. Even now you can find individual examples of businesses doing things like this, especially in places with little rule of law.

There is nothing magical about businesses - they are made up of the same people that make up governments. Those people have the same power trips regardless of their positions.

⬐ erdos4d

This exactly.

⬐ emn13

You are of course entirely correct (well, outside of the mob, which is probably a realistic factor for quite a bit of business, but kind of out of scope for "rules").

However, the essence of the matter isn't just about putting you in a cage - it's about excessive and capricious penalties with no real recourse. And those exist aplenty in the private sector. Nor do all laws broken necessarily equate to imprisonment.

In practice, for perceived infractions against whatever rules the powerful organization has, private organizations are pretty ruthless up to but not quite reaching imprisonment. Pseudo-monopolists cutting service, or hefty financial penalties up to and including losing pretty much everything, holding your data hostage: that's all fair game.

These two things aren't the same; but I do think they're both bad and scary enough to warrant not just concern, but in an ideal world, rules. You know, for example, constraints for government, and licensing rules for business.

⬐ unholythree

I think as a corollary it’s important to remember that “A private sector business isn't gonna send thugs with guns” wasn’t always true. Private police pushing people around was common enough in the late 19th and early 20th century. It was laws and government intervention that stopped that.

⬐ user3939382

I just had an issue where I couldn’t get an appointment for a city service because of COVID, got ahold of my councilman and was there in 2 weeks. This is definitely what he should do.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

This is good advice.

That said, you shouldn't have to call up a politician and beg in order to get government departments to perform functions that they are supposed to be performing.

If you have some ultra-edge case involving your deceased uncle's estate's something or other it can be understandable. But this should be a routine business transaction and the city is incapable of making it happen. He's trying to give them a large amount of money FFS, you'd think they'd accept it and then do the menial amount of work to make the records on their end reflect that.

⬐ justin66

That's all pretty much ass-backwards. It'd be wildly inappropriate and unethical if a city councilman could somehow sway the settlement of an estate, which is the province of the court.

Getting things moving in city hall's bureaucracy is in the councilman's remit, as is improving the state of the bureaucracy to prevent further problems in the future. They might not be the ideal person to handle anything in particular, but they should sure know who to talk to, and they should make time to do it.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

And how many people bemoaning this situation in these comment threads will turn right around and advocate for more professional license requirements in some other comment thread.

You can't have the good without the bad. I'd like to see those people come out and say these are acceptable losses.

⬐ II2II

It sounds like the people who issue licenses need a professional license!

More seriously though: Rossmann's troubles are in the domain of business licenses, a licensing system that sounds too complex, staff that are not properly trained in the services they provide (or are incompetent for other reasons), and likely under-staffing in the departments he interacts with. My interpretation is this is more damning of the city itself than the principle of licensing.

⬐ savant_penguin

As opposed to the other licenses such as the medallion system (Uber drivers clearly can do the job), the interstate commerce commission licenses (there are people without trucks who live off lending their licences), the insane regulations that make drug development cost billions (you need approval from gov every step of the way), the older aviation licensing ( your competitor aviation companies had to approve that there was a "public need" for your extra company to compete with them), the EMT licensing that does the exact same thing as the aviation companies got to do (you get to decide if there is a public need for the existence of your competitors, weirdly they never found the need for competition)?

I'm sure the list goes on, but the notion that a govt worker who knows nothing about the practical side of the business and that does not care about how those insanities of the law will destroy jobs (this is the guy who will fine you) combined with an apathetic worker behind a desk with no incentive or reason to be responsive to you when they f up will make anything safer is just utopian.

I just hope that people who run away from California and nyc realize that these policies just don't work. If you are in doubt about how much of the homelessness in California is the fault of the govt licenses/red tape just look up on YouTube how much bureaucracy you have to go through to build more housing. One guy had to wait 4 years and spend millions in lawyers just to get a no from the city council.

⬐ lazyasciiart

Californian citizens have spent decades fighting tooth and nail to prevent any housing from being created, and have basically turned their local governments into anti-development walls, and pursued every private tactic available as well. But that isn’t an unforeseen problem with government so much as a problem with the government representing the actual wishes of their shitty residents.

⬐ philistine

I think I'm the typical person you're inviting to say it and I will: those are acceptable losses. Whenever you want a new licensing scheme, you have to balance the gains with the losses.

For example, my city had an issue where donation boxes would pop up on city lots next to parks and become dumpsters. The city implemented a licensing scheme, which forced the companies and non-profits to collect from the boxes at a regular frequency, and now the problem is solved. No bags of old books left soaking in the rain turning into useless pulp. But someone could argue the licensing scheme stops some non-profits from collecting much needed donations. It totally does, but it's worth it.

⬐ coryrc

It's called "littering". Enforce your existing laws against people leaving crap on public property.

⬐ lazyasciiart

Ah, so ban donation boxes altogether?

⬐ Gracana

No, the litter around it is.

⬐ srtjstjsj

Who is the litterer? The owner of the box or the person who put a shirt in it?

⬐ coryrc

Both.

⬐ _-david-_

I am a bit confused. Why do you need a license to require organizations to pick up donations? Can't you just pass a law that requires it?

⬐ srtjstjsj

How will you enforce that law without a licensee's id # on the box?

⬐ _-david-_

Businesses and charities already have a business license number. I am opposed to adding an additional license for something like this. If they use the existing number I wouldn't have an issue, but it sounded like there was an additional license that was required.

⬐ II2II

It would also be nice if those who oppose licensing suggested credible alternatives.

As your anecdote suggested, licenses are typically implemented for a reason. Quite often those reasons deal with people who are taking advantage of a situation, with little regard to the interests of others or even the legality of their actions. I will admit that licenses can be problematic, but I honestly cannot think of a good alternative so I support licensing as the best option we have available at present.

⬐ Aerroon

>It would also be nice if those who oppose licensing suggested credible alternatives.

Credible alternative: don't have licenses. They're not a gift from god. Businesses existed before them and continue to exist without them. Can there be a quality problem? Sure, but consumer protection laws will apply regardless of licenses.

⬐ throwaway0a5e

Don't have mandatory licenses.

Voluntary licensing schemes seem to work well for the professions that have them.

"Screw you I'm just not getting a license my work stands on it's own without your overpriced seal of approval" provides a nice backstop to rent seeking and other bad behavior by the licensing authority.

⬐ SiempreViernes

So just hoping the unlicensed companies putting out donation boxes without further maintenance don't attract any donations because the lack the license?

⬐ brewdad

Send someone around to remove the boxes? You don't have to have a license but your box is illegal without one.

⬐ hef19898

Well, two different things can be true at the same time. Also, this seems less a problem with licenses and more a problem with getting and renewing them. Which are two related but different issues.

⬐ Aerroon

How are they different issues? The problem with getting and renewing a license directly stems from the requirement to have licenses. It is an inevitable part of it.

⬐ mrzimmerman

It simply isn’t an inevitable part of it. There’s a chain of failures happening to Lois Rossman and the licensing board not picking up phone calls to take appointments is one of them and it’s in no way “inevitable”.

By your logic if a service fails in a chain of services for a piece of software to work, we should call the failure an inevitable part of the system and throw the whole thing out. Complex things can have more points of failure. It seems like simplifying the renewal process here by removing or automating one or more steps is the sensible thing to do.

⬐ BoiledCabbage

> advocate for more professional license requirements in some other comment thread.

How in the world is this now a comment on the validity of licensing services? An organization has bad customer service so you should throw the entire field out?

I know someone who was on hold with an airline for hours, should we dismantle airlines? Is notoriously impossible to get google on the phone, should we scrap search engines and online advertising?

This post is simply looking for an reason to push a personal point.

⬐ dahfizz

> An organization has bad customer service so you should throw the entire field out?

In this instance, "customer service" is the entire point of licensing. You pay a fee and get the license. Here, Rossman paid his fee but didn't get his license because the government is inept.

That's not just bad customer service, that's this government agency failing to do the thing it was created for.

⬐ nickff

Most government agencies fail to fulfill the stated reasons for their creation, yet the agencies endure. For example, the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 to forestall major economic cycles; subsequent depressions and recessions have had no negative impact on them.

⬐ blueboo

> You can't have the good without the bad

This is not a rational claim. Yes, you certainly can have the good without the bad. The existence of a process doesn't imply its brokenness.

⬐ larossmann

One important thing to note is that in the over 9 years I have held a DCA license for repair, they have never

a) checked my soldering skills b) looked to see whether I got dust between the LCD cell & backlight layers when doing screen replacement c) checked to see what quality of iPhone screens we use for screen repairs d) asked or tested my ability to do my job

You pay the troll toll, and you get a paper that goes on your wall. I could be the best tech in the world, or I could be a giant idiot... you'd never know.

Some people have the mistaken impression that being licensed means I have been tested, inspected, etc.. nope. They inspect to make sure your business cards have your license number on them. They don't inspect to figure out if you actually do good work for your customers.

⬐ srtjstjsj

The license gives customers a way to track your reputation.

⬐ vkou

No, licensing is not about customer reputation tracking. Licensing is about giving the government a way to shut you down if you cause problems.

When government works, this is actually a good thing.

⬐ syshum

The internet gives customers a way to track reputation, government adds zero value to that

⬐ larossmann

Yelp & Google do a far better job, and the way I feel about yelp is undisputedly bad.

If you google portatronics 46th st, you will learn about the business way faster than if you show up in person, take down the license number, look up their license number, etc.

Further, I have had angry customers leave bad reviews, file chargebacks, etc. Of all the customers I've had in the past 9 years with a DCA license, I had one go to the DCA over an issue they had with the post office that I quickly resolved with a full refund. This is one out of over 40,000 people in nine years, during COVID when the post office was being screwy with everything.

My point is, this just doesn't happen anymore. but I've had TONS of people take grievences to google/yelp, and 99% of the time we give them a call, say mea culpa, ask what we can do to fix it, and work it out and it gets turned into a 5 star again.

People who have a problem go to Yelp/Google to leave a review, or their credit card company for a chargeback. You won't find much related to the reputation of the business using the DCA because it's not the way this generation handles these issues.

We've moved on from this system. It's a system designed to be useful for a pre-internet era, and exists solely so that the city can generate revenue. It's important to call a spade a spade.

⬐ abawany

FYI, Google Maps has recently started to 'disappear' negative reviews. They show up when the reviewer is logged in but checking the business incognito will show fewer reviews.

⬐ seriousquestion

This is like dealing with a monopoly that you can't unsubscribe to. And imagine those who don't have a large Youtube following and don't have the money for a lawyer. What are they to do?

⬐ raverbashing

This is not the time to play with city workers lacking in proactivity and/or competence. This is lawyer and/or representative time. Escalate the issue (ok, he's doing this with the video)

If the payment was done, that shows intent on renewing the license. Might be worth nothing, might be worth something.

Do you think if the city sits on a permit renewal by Chase or Starbucks that they'll diligently sit and wait? Yeah, right...

⬐ CapitalistCartr

Unfortunately, the hard truth, in America at least, is you have to hire a lawyer for these problems. Most such problems magically disappear that way. It's unfair, but it's how it works. It's a lot like needing to bribe an official to get something done: if you don't understand, the system seems impenetrable.

⬐ jonny_eh

I'd take "hire a lawyer" over "bribe an official" any day of the week.

⬐ adamc

Yes, but that is a very low bar.

⬐ EricE

lol - all systems have rules and gatekeepers. After all, all systems are operated by humans. Governments, corporations or other large organizations are not magical entities that exist in a vacuum - there are humans at the core of all of them.

⬐ xeromal

IDK, I see a lawyer as a positive benefit. Sure, some city, state, or federal employees are incompetent but at least there is a means of getting help if you're desperate enough.

⬐ tehwebguy

Right — a lawsuit is the pretty much the only thing that must be answered.

⬐ warent

Why is this being downvoted? It seems like perfectly reasonable advice and one of the first things that came to my mind as well. Is there something in the video that happens which is causing people to vote this down?

Edit: instead of silently voting me down too I encourage someone to provide thoughtful written discourse expressing your disagreement so we can all grow and learn together

⬐ himinlomax

How long would it take to have this resolved in court? Courts that are backlogged due to Covid? What's a business owner supposed to do while this goes through the courts?

And obviously, how much is it going to cost?

⬐ apercu

Agreed. Sue the city. That will get someones attention. Well, maybe not in NYC. I honestly don't know.

⬐ omegabravo

Seeing a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean suing the city, it means someone who can navigate rules and regulations

⬐ jonny_eh

Or even know who to call to take a closer look.

⬐ apercu

That's fair, I just meant if the stern letter from a law office (which I am sure New York officials get weekly) didn't do anything.

⬐ systemvoltage

This the right answer unfortunately that is downvoted without explanation.

⬐ EricE

Before running to a lawyer he should at least send a paper letter. Skip this email and phone BS. Certified, Return Receipt, signature required. Even a lack of response is still documented. Right now it's just he said/she said. And if it does get to the legal level, having an official and actionable paper trail is a lot stronger than "they haven't answered one email in 9 years". A judge isn't going to care about that (right or wrong is irrelevant - email is not as actionable of communications in business vs. mailed correspondence.)

If they still don't respond to a letter like that and it bounces back from the post office then you really have something for an attorney to start with. Attorneys are expensive - do the basics first before engaging one (if you have to).

And no, engaging an attorney does not automatically = a lawsuit. Quite the opposite, actually.

⬐ rietta

That works for many things. Many years ago Microsoft acquired a phone company that we had apps in the app store for. We had documented proof of the sales receipts but no payment. After months of nothing, I printed and sent an invoice by certified mail with signature requested and we were paid shortly thereafter.

⬐ Railsify

This is over-regulation at it's best.

⬐ himinlomax

That's not even a regulation problem per se, it's a bureaucracy issue. The only regulation here is that you need to get a piece of paper to do business. There's no complex requirement, no job-specific rules to follow, no training requirement, nothing except a piece of official paper.

Some jobs in some places may have onerous requirements for some jobs, possibly for good reason, such as having a doctorate to perform medicine, which takes a decade of hard work or so. The bureaucracy involved may be simple, you're supposed to have the diploma: if you're found to have performed medical acts without it you end up in jail. (This is not typically how it's done any more for a number of good reasons, incidentally.)

Getting a simple piece of paper is the problem. As far as regulations are concerned, this is not any more complex than buying a concert ticket. If the festival you wanted to attend turned out to be unable to do that in a timely manner, you wouldn't fault them for selling tickets. You'd fault them for sucking at a simple business task.

⬐ gentleman11

> this is not any more complex than buying a concert ticket

If it was no different than buying a concert ticket, then there is no purpose to the legislation. It would be nothing but a tax. Expensive to collect due to the bureaucracy. Are there licensing requirements involved? Checks?

⬐ Railsify

That's why I said over-regulation, what I mean is regulation for the sake of regulation. Although, I would imagine there is a form with some fields that if filled incorrectly would result in a rejection. I don't really want to debate what the meaning of regulation is, but I see it as any checkpoint with a government, not all of it is bad but a need to get a piece of paper for which there are no requirements does seem like a regulation and a pointless one at that.

⬐ ta1234567890

> c) You can't show up in person without an appointment.

> d) Appointments are only granted by means of contact that don't reply.

Similar thing happened to me recently with the IRS. Got a notice about them needing to verify my identity and gave me a number to call. Had been calling for months and would always get a message saying they were too busy and to try the following day. After trying a few other options to no avail, I decided to show up at my local IRS office without an appointment (which I couldn’t get anyway). They first turned me down, then told me that maybe if I waited for a few hours they might be able to see me at the end of the day, then after about 20min and them clearly not being busy, they talked to me and was able to resolve the issue within 15min.

So, even though I was told I couldn’t show up without an appointment, and they tried turning me down, just by being there they finally paid attention to me. Yes, it was uncomfortable and annoying to have to do that, but it worked.

⬐ toomuchtodo

If you have a moment, please call the IRS' Customer Advocacy Department to file a complaint regarding this. Gotta be the squeaky wheel.

https://www.irs.gov/advocate/the-taxpayer-advocate-service-i...

⬐ MeinBlutIstBlau

And people wonder why there is staunch support for less government involvement. At least when I get screwed over by a private company I can talk to someone...so long as it's not Google.

⬐ ipaddr

I find getting the government on a call is possible but takes awhile at times. Good luck getting an email response from digitalocean. Good luck getting Amazon on the phone. Good luck getting Dang in the phone if you have an issue here Good luck getting anyone in any tech company to answer the phone.

⬐ criddell

> Good luck getting Amazon on the phone.

I've called Amazon quite a few times when I've had problems and have always had a pretty good experience when doing so.

⬐ kbelder

Amazon has pretty good customer service. They are nothing like Google.

⬐ gentleman11

Aws or Amazon?

⬐ toomuchtodo

> Good luck getting Dang in the phone if you have an issue here

I cannot speak for others, but I will go on the record that Dan has replied to every email I’ve ever sent over a decade and has helped me to become a more thoughtful and open minded contributor on HN through both his private emails and public comments. YMMV. Thanks Dan.

⬐ gentleman11

Same. Dang replied to me in less than an hour with a real and thoughtful answer iirc

⬐ ipaddr

I will attest that he provides great email support. The original post was about call support for private companies vs governmental entities.

⬐ toomuchtodo

Point taken.

⬐ jonny_eh

or… this is the result of cut-cut-cut politics. When we continue to cut funding, while asking our govt workers to do more, of course the quality of service is going to suffer. This isn't a problem in other countries.

⬐ MeinBlutIstBlau

I'm sure a lot of Germans on here would like to tell you about the hell that is the German bureaucracy. While it works, it can just be a nightmare of forms and millions of rules.

⬐ bobthechef

Footnote: Feliks Koneczny has an interesting analysis of why Germany is like this. He classifies Germany as belonging predominantly to what he calles Byzantine civilization (I'll leave it up to the interested to find out how he classifies civilizations), tracing it to the influence of Empress Theophanu. At the time he published his works, he took Bismarck's Germany as the quintessence of Byzantine Germany.

⬐ lliamander

Having seen the sausage made in a few different government bureaucracies, I'm fairly confident this is not the case. It all comes down to whether there is any incentive to improve customer experience.

⬐ dalbasal

or paypal, or...

⬐ emn13

... or pretty much every large organization ever if you're somehow falling between the cracks, and your approval isn't critical to their survival. Paying em money isn't enough, unless it's enough money to move the needle.

People blaming government for this nastiness apparently have never dealt with any big businesses?

I mean, the government is exceptionally large and powerful, so that's even worse simply by scale; but on the other hand, they don't tend to cut corners quite as extremely as businesses do. In any case it's hardly a night and day difference. If anything, the kinds of checks present on the government should be present on all organizations beyond a certain size. Not that that's ever going to happen...

⬐ MeinBlutIstBlau

Yeah but unless it's utilities, or internet, I don't have to buy the product. My "vote" with my dollars can be immediate and have a direct affect on them. Saying I'm not gonna vote for someone isn't the same effect.

⬐ akiselev

You don't have to buy their products the same way the government doesn't have to provide for your health care. While technically true, in practice it can easily mean the difference between a comfortable life and destitution.

⬐ fnord77

you can always talk to your congressperson/senator's office. many are very helpful in cutting through the BS

⬐ mensetmanusman

It seems one of the disadvantages of not paying for something…

⬐ pbosko

So, you're not paying taxes?

⬐ readflaggedcomm

Police don't take orders from taxpayers, either. Maybe the victims of bureaucracy aren't its true customers.

⬐ Matticus_Rex

I don't pay taxes the way I pay for a cell phone carrier. The taxes have to get paid no matter what -- I can't withhold payment or switch to a different carrier because I'm getting bad service. I could, as a privileged American, uproot my whole life and move elsewhere, but I'd still owe taxes for the time I had awful service, and depending on the circumstances might still end up owing at least some taxes until I renounced citizenship.

Like them or not, want them or not: taxes are not voluntary payments, and we can't apply the same logic to them.

⬐ toomuchtodo

> And people wonder why there is staunch support for less government involvement. At least when I get screwed over by a private company I can talk to someone...so long as it's not Google.

I don't bother wondering why people are ignorant anymore, some things just are. You get a vote simply by existing as a citizen and can put effort into changing government. Businesses can tell you to pound sand unless you're a shareholder or management. Government can be held accountable (caveats such as Venezuela and Somalia aside), businesses less so.

⬐ autokad

> "Government can be held accountable"

LOL. I remember when the city of Philadelphia flooded my house because they were doing some work on a neighboring structure. COP's response "We have a law that says the City of Philadelphia cannot be held accountable or sued for their actions". As Mel Brooks once put it, "its good to be the King".

⬐ vkou

There are similar laws in some locales that offer similar levels of protection to malfeasance by private firms.

⬐ cherrycherry98

The fundamental difference between the relationship between individuals and businesses and individuals and government is that one is voluntary, the other is not. Businesses need customers to survive, it is a very powerful motivator to providing good products and customer service if people are free to do business with someone else instead. Rapid changes in consumer habits, usually due to new options becoming available, have doomed many incumbents. Government agencies don't need you, you need them through force of the law.

Even if you are an employee, it's a voluntary relationship. If you feel you're not being treated fairly, you can try to complain, your leverage being that you are free to leave. The exception to this is monopoly situations which is why maintaining competitive environments is so important. We still haven't quite figured out the best way to do this. Regulations, in the broad sense, can help or hurt competition.

It's a romantic idea that we can change government through democracy but these agencies are quite removed from the democratic process. We elect representatives but they can't do anything unilaterally. Their priorities will not align with each individual's priorities at any given time. Even if it does align with your specific needs they need to build some kind of consensus with other representatives about what to change. It's a slow and imperfect process.

⬐ rafale

You are talking about monopolies or quasi monopolies. Business in competitive environment are incentivized to not screw their customers. AMD vs nVidia, Walmart vs Costco, Coca-cola vs Pepsi,... Even monopolies don't like to do that as to not attract negative attention, they just fix their price high and come up with a narrative to do so.

Whenever I have an issue with a private company, it usually getd resolved a lot faster. One time I called my ISP mad that I wasn't notified of their new cheaper and better plans, and they upgraded me, paid the difference and gave me a free month. The whole ordeal from start to finish lasted 20 minutes (including wait time on the phone). And ISPs are known assholes.

The problem with governments is that they are a monopoly by default and they can't really go bankrupt (and when they do, they find a way to survive).

⬐ AnthonyMouse

It's the difference between a monopoly by law rather than by economics.

If the local power utility is a private monopolist, there is still a limit to how abusive they can be before people will e.g. install solar panels, or buy a generator.

There is no limit to how abusive the local licensing bureaucracy can be because no matter what they do to you, no one can set up a competing licensing system that you can use instead. There is no equivalent to generating your own power.

And voting doesn't work when the affected people are a minority of the voters. The government could imprison everyone in the state of Nebraska and no one in Nebraska could do anything about it if the people in California don't care enough to vote in somebody else. They are in fact already incarcerating more than that many people without anybody stopping them.

It also doesn't work when the voters are misinformed. For example, the people of New York (and several other blue states) consistently pay more in federal taxes than they receive in federal programs, yet their representatives continue to support high federal tax rates. Even if you support those programs, those constituents would be significantly better off if they were state rather than federal programs, and don't seem to notice this.

⬐ lazyasciiart

Of course everyone notices this. The willingness to pay taxes to benefit people beside yourself is the basic divide between left and right, so it’s not a coincidence that a more lefty state like NY elects representatives who support it.

⬐ mikem170

That would be meaningful if the people on the left didn't also want to force the people on the right to pay for the programs they want.

Maybe the people on the left should start kickstarters for some of this stuff?

⬐ AnthonyMouse

Local taxes pay for roads and schools. Federal taxes pay for the F-35 and corn subsidies. The "people beside yourself" who "benefit" are the likes of Lockheed Martin and Monsanto.

⬐ lazyasciiart

And one of the ways we prevent monopolies, to protect the consumer, is by introducing government regulation of businesses. Look, we circled all the way back to the topic!

⬐ lliamander

> You get a vote simply by existing as a citizen and can put effort into changing government.

The whole structure of the modern civil service is to be as insulated from the democratic process as possible. To make them accountable to the democratic process would mean to politicize them.

With (most) private businesses you have an alternative. They may be able to tell you to pound sand, but if you can simply go to their competitor then they probably won't.

⬐ sremani

The bureaucracy always outlives any government or political movement. Yes, there are political appointments here and there but the rank and file is permanent.

⬐ albertop

The bureaucratic wing of the new class has other special rights and privileges as well. For starters, its members are virtually unfireable. “Death—rather than poor performance, misconduct or layoffs—is the primary threat to job security at the Environmental Protection Agency, the Small Business Administration, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Office of Management and Budget and a dozen other federal operations,” a study by USA Today found. In 2010, the 168,000 federal workers in Washington, D.C.—who are quite well compensated—had a job security rate of 99.74 percent.

Excerpt From Suicide of the West.

⬐ seriousquestion

Who do I vote for in NYC to resolve the bureaucracy in question?

⬐ solaxun

You get a vote as a shareholder too.

I tend to agree that governments on the overall are held far less accountable for their actions than private companies, which will go bankrupt without patronage (without... ahem, government intervention). Government largesse extends beyond the policies of whatever administration is currently in office and therefore beyond your vote. We're talking about decades of built up cruft with no impetus for change. If you have a terrible time at the DMV, what do you do? Sell their shares? Stop shopping there? No, you just deal with it. Yes, it's one example, and I picked one that would intentionally elicit a response from almost anybody regardless of their political leanings, but that same example applies to many govt. organizations. They are inefficient and there is no correction mechanism.

⬐ jvanderbot

Boiling this down to biz vs gov is a false dichotomy.

There's some fundamental "usability" spectrum aligned with "optional-ness" vs "mandatory-ness". Equifax, Experian, Trans Union, etc have some of the worst customer service of all time. They make egregious errors and are not held accountable. My experiences with the DMV (another semi-mandatory service) pale in comparison with those 3 companies.

Of all the bad experiences I've had, it almost always comes down to "Do I have other options and how easy is it to opt-out?". The harder it is to opt-out, the worse my experience has been.

⬐ wbl

The customer for the credit bureaus is not you.

⬐ jvanderbot

It's the same for most semi-to-fully-mandatory interactions. I don't get anything from the DMV. I pay to give information.

But you're not arguing for/against my main point: That it's not a biz-vs-gov problem, it's a mandatory-vs-optional problem.

⬐ treeman79

You can walk away from a business. The government can legally shoot you if you refuse to comply long enough.

⬐ jvanderbot

You can't walk away from Equifax. I can walk away from my drivers license.

⬐ behringer

please hold while we connect you to the IRS customer advocacy department...

⬐ alasdair_

This reminds me of dealing with immigration. I was supposed to get an “alien registration number” when I arrived in the USA on an immigrant via, yet for some reason I did not.

No one would talk to me, not matter how many times I explained for three months. I eventually took to driving to the INS building every single day until they finally gave up and issued me a number within 20 minutes.

Three months of not being allowed to work nor being able to leave the country was frustrating in the extreme.

Anyway, apparently the right way to deal with this is to contact your representative (for me it was a congressman or senator, for this guy their state-level person) and ask them to help.

⬐ behringer

Yes, the rep may help, but that too will possibly be a brick wall. The best method is to show up, tell them you'll wait, then continue to stand there staring at them.

⬐ devoutsalsa

In 2017 I had a problem with back taxes and the IRS was threatening to come after me. I couldn’t get them on the phone and it was important enough that I didn’t want to wait to resolve it via mail. I contacted my US congressperson and complained that they were making it impossible to work out an arrangement, and the fact that I wanted to give them money & couldn’t call them was ridiculous. A senior aide got back to me pretty quickly, and offered to help. Instead of relying on snail mail and nonfunctional phone calls, I was able to resolve the entire process via email and a couple phone calls with the aide. It was great, and I highly recommend giving it a try.

⬐ GrinningFool

I'm forgot to file a few years back. They filed it for me and semt me a ridiculous bill (based on standard deductions of the time) So I realized what happened amd filed in 2019. A minor retund is expected.

Few months ago got a bill for the old amount with notice of intent to lein.

Called them, found that yes - my new filing had arrived well over a year ago. But they don't have resources to process it.

So the inexorable collections process continues forward because they haven't processed the paperwork I sent them almost two years ago now.

The best solution they had was that I send a copy of that return, and keep calling in to hit the puae buttons on collections while they catch up.

I'm on hold now - over an hour and a half - to do that again. If I don't get through today the process continues, automated and unchecked.

Tbey also kept my entire substantial 2020 refund because of the money I "owe" from this back year.

Impotent rage is a good description.

⬐ akiselev

Same here. I was dealing with back taxes but some of my former banks wouldn't send me old account statements for a variety of bullshit reasons or they wanted to charge obscene amounts for them. After one email to my Congressman, an aide forwarded it to the CFPB and I got calls from bank representatives within three days asking for my mailing address - didn't even bother charging a reasonable amount for shipping and handling (I asked).

I think I need to emphasize this since many on HN are immigrants: Congresscritters don't care if you're eligible to vote or not (I wasn't). Hell, half the time they don't even care if you're in their district because they're in a safe seat that can only be practically challenged by someone local who can pull donors away. A letter advocating for some policy position that's decided by realpolitik anyway usually just get a form response, but an reasonable letter from a constituent asking for actionable help will almost always get the white glove treatment.

⬐ JJMcJ

Contact your senior U.S. Senators office. They have contacts that will get things moving for you.

Works much more often that you would expect.

⬐ late2part

Same thing with Global Entry. Partner was stressed because it expired, no appoints, etc. Flew through a location w/ Global Entry and went there at open, in and out in 15 min; poof, TSA PRE worked next day.

⬐ onefuncman

I am in exactly this situation (but at the days/weeks timescale instead of months), so thanks for posting how you resolved this, I'll try my local IRS office.

⬐ SilasX

I'm dealing with similar issues regarding a lost package through the USPS. The sender assured me they had updated my address but sent it to the old one anyway and then got lost.

I filled out the online form for missing packages and it said someone would follow up on the ticket number. No one did. I called the main USPS number and got through to an operator. They said someone should have followed up and then created a new ticket number. Still no follow up.

I called again and they gave me the number for some major customer affairs center (forget the name). First time the voicemail was full, second time I left a message but never heard back.

The local post office finally did call me back ... from an Unknown number (WTF?) so I didn't pick it up, then left a vague message about the package and said to call back the local post office number.

Every time I've tried to call that number it just stays on hold and then goes to a busy signal.

⬐ philliphaydon

I’m dealing with an issue with western union. Well was, I’ve given up. For over a year I’ve been using WU to send money back for my helper to the Philippines. So she didn’t need to go to the crowded mall on the other side of singapore to send it.

No issues for over a year sending to her husband. Then one day I’m told he’s not allowed to receive money.

I call WU. They say he can receive. I send money and WU cancels it. I call again, they said he needs to call. He calls and they say there’s no issues. I call they say no issue. WU cancels when he attempts to collect.

I call again they said I need to contact GCR department. 2 months they won’t reply. Emailed several times. Called again. Talked to WU on Twitter, everyone tells me to contact gcr. No one will reply.

Black hole support systems.

⬐ niij

Does transferwise work there? It's worked great for me and the fees are transparent and low.

⬐ philliphaydon

Don't know, never heard of that one.

⬐ sfifs

have you tried Singtel Dash? seems to work.

⬐ SilasX

Update: The package was finally delivered, yesterday (July 12), original delivery attempt June 1st.

⬐ derefr

In this case he's saying

> since I cannot sort this out in person due to the COVID closures

...which I interpret as "the office I would go to to sort this out is empty; there is nobody there; the lights are off and the doors are locked. Everyone who would be working there is working from home."

⬐ dheera

IANAL but I mean if they say the way to notify them is to call them, and they don't respond to that call, the onus is on them, no?

I would think that you did your due diligence by calling and that it's their fault at that point.

Also, calling should never be a requirement. What if someone is deaf? Requiring someone to call without an online alternative should 100% be an ADA violation.

⬐ u678u

That's why I'll never use a virtual bank, I need one with branches just for that time something breaks.

⬐ Robotbeat

Yup. Showing up is basically always a thing, because even if it’s not an official channel, you’ll end up bothering someone until they help you solve the problem.

And I think most people want to help others, but even if they’re selfish and don’t care about helping anyone, they’ll help you if you’re persistent and physically present.

Like the classic parable of the persistent widow: Luke 18:2-5

“He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’”

I guess this is one critique of exclusive remote working: it’s pretty easy to end up ghosted by someone in the approval chain for something.

⬐ jonny_eh

> I guess this is one critique of exclusive remote working: it’s pretty easy to end up ghosted by someone in the approval chain for something.

This! If you've never worked in a very large organization, it's a huge pro to working in the office that can be overlooked.

⬐ lostphilosopher

Unless it's _really_ a very large organization where the person or team you need to contact is often in a different building, city, state, or country...

⬐ soperj

Disappears if that person is working remotely.

⬐ lazyasciiart

You can visit their manager.

⬐ soperj

and if they're the one doing it?

⬐ thefunnyman

This is a very real problem in large organizations. I’ve found an effective alternative while working remote is to escalate to my manager in such situations. Usually they have a little more organizational clout and can get a response.

⬐ srtjstjsj

My local DMV is amazing at ignoring, insulting, and attacking people who just "show up" and ask for help with a process.

⬐ newsclues

My city hall closed for Covid.

I yanked at the door until it opened. Walked in and found employees to deal with…

Even if doors are closed and locked, showing up can still get the job done.

⬐ 6f8986c3

Insurrection!

⬐ rkeene2

It didn't sound like he attempted or succeeded in any sort of violent uprising against authority, despite his violence against the door. It sounds like he was attempting to comply with authority, perhaps in violation of some rules, ordinances, or laws.

⬐ Johnny555

So you broke in through a locked door? That doesn't sound like a good way to get help, you could have also ended up in jail.

⬐ EsotericAlgo

True unfortunately. My organization is very much an in person organization that has gone remote with some processes that were still mediated by paper forms. The previous advice for getting certain signatures and approvals was to stand outside a particular execs office and haranguing them through persistence. This is no longer an option nor easily replaced through readily ignored channels.

(This is not a method I would elect, but dysfunction begets dysfunction.)

⬐ WalterBright

> you’ll end up bothering someone until they help you solve the problem

Haha, I discovered that with my bank. Phone calls were just dismissed with "we can't do anything about it" or getting repeatedly "transferred" to a dial tone.

Showing up and sitting in the branch manager's office until he fixed the problem worked. It was a $600 problem so it was worth the effort.

⬐ efreak

As long as you don't have one of those online-only amounts BofA has. ATM access and the account are free, but visiting the teller is not. I'm not sure if they actually offer it anymore, as I closed my accounts with them several years ago. I recall having great difficulty disabling overdraft protection (to me, the whole point of a debit card is not spending money that I don't have--if my balance is too low for my purchase, I want it rejected).

Details: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bank-of-america-to-offer-free-o...

⬐ alsetmusic

> Showing up and sitting in the branch manager's office until he fixed the problem worked. It was a $600 problem so it was worth the effort.

After being on hold for >1h, I went to my local bank branch. The manager told me they could only call the same support line. I was sure they must have an internal path to resolve things. He denied that this was an option. I don’t know if I believe that, as it seems unlikely.

⬐ WalterBright

The bank manager gave me that line, too. I didn't believe it, either. Eventually, he elliptically hinted something along the lines that if I said it was fraud, he might be able to do something.

Naturally, I then declared it to be fraud.

⬐ narrator

It's probably modernizing now, but I talked with someone in Argentina many years ago about paying bills and doing banking. They said that the only way to do any of this stuff is to show up in person at the bank, at the utility company, etc. Showing up in person is a developing country's cheap authentication hack as criminal fraud very rarely gets punished and fraud over the telephone is just too easy.

⬐ Zetaphor

It's quite the opposite, I'm not sure when your anecdote occurred, but everything can be paid online directly through your bank or using payment facilitators. It's been this way for years.

Even things like wire transfers between individuals can be done instantly directly through your banking app/website, where my bank in the US requires me to go to a branch and wait 3-5 days.