HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ DCKing

There's probably good reasons why he wasn't running Linux. I'd imagine for things someone in his position would need a Mac would make sense, with better software for making presentations, Office compatibility and video conferencing compatibility, as well as battery life. It's embarrassing, but understandable.

What this really signifies though is how little the Linux desktop means. The Linux desktop does not compete with macOS or Windows - at least not in a business sense. If the Linux desktop suddenly had a dramatic uptick in usage, it's not obvious to me who would suddenly earn more money. Canonical has shifted to focus on servers after bleeding money and AFAIK does not make significant money on the Ubuntu desktop, which is easily the most popular desktop distro. Many developers do not run it on their own desktops, but exclusively use Linux based tech on servers.

As a part time Linux desktop user it has become my impression that the Linux desktop is a community driven (i.e. not profit-driven) project. The only desktops with significant corporate backing (GNOME and KDE) have this backing because their major backers (Red Hat and SUSE) do make some small amount of money selling desktop software, but exclusively in corporate environments (users of RHEL or SLED workstations don't usually have a choice) to companies that also adopt their server products. But it's a small thing for both of them. The Linux Desktop only seems to exist as the result of a gesture of kindness - big companies continuing to put money into a marginal product, and a lot of community effort - and using it also tends to feel that way [1].

Making money with Linux is what the Linux Foundation is about. It's the trade association of people making money with Linux. And that's on infrastructure, not the desktop. The Linux desktop is not part of making money with Linux. The desktop apparently matters so little in this picture, not even the director feels like he should dogfood it.

[1]: Critically: the amount of end users directly paying for their Linux desktop user experience is close to zero. It's a miracle some desktops are as nice as they are, given that.

⬐ rhinoceraptor

And why would any company want to invest in desktop Linux when it's a bit of a toxic community? Even Apple is not really investing in the desktop anymore. The die hard Mac users are desperate for updated hardware and software these days.

⬐ stephenr

> The die hard Mac users are desperate for updated hardware and software these days.

[Citation needed]

⬐ rhinoceraptor

Just listen to the podcasts (Accidental Tech Podcast, etc.) that talk a lot about the Mac, they all want updated Mac pros, and before the 2016 MBP, MacBook pros. Not to mention the poor old Mac mini with Haswell CPUs.

⬐ stephenr

So your argument is basically "before they updated the macs we wanted new macs".

Apple have released or announced updates to every product line bar the Mac mini.

⬐ askmike

That goes against the director presenting (from his Mac) that 2017 will be year of the Linux desktop.

⬐ baldfat

For the last 10 years at all Linux events the number one laptop is a Mac. How are we to have nice things on Linux Desktop if people don't even know what it feels like.

⬐ StudentStuff

Whoa whoa whoa, your painting with really broad strokes here! Slow your roll a bit there, Mac laptops are definitely not the number one laptop at all Linux events.

From personal experience, I saw very few Macs at SeaGL, there were more at LFNW, but most people were running some Linux distro on their laptop.

⬐ jamesrcole

> Whoa whoa whoa, your painting with really broad strokes here! Slow your roll a bit there, Mac laptops are definitely not the number one laptop at all Linux events.

Umm, aren't you arguing precisely over what the "broad strokes" are?

⬐ StudentStuff

No, purely pointing out that what @baldfat said was a broad claim that is plainly false.

> For the last 10 years at all Linux events the number one laptop is a Mac.

If you go to any of the linux fests in the Pacific Northwest, you'll see a low percentage of Macs. Thinkpads vastly outnumber Macs at these events, where you'll have a room of 300 people with 100+ Thinkpads and perhaps a dozen Macs, if that.

⬐ jamesrcole

> No, purely pointing out that what @baldfat said was a broad claim that is plainly false.

I get that you're saying it's false. But what you and them are talking about is a broad claim. Any answer to "what is the most commonly used type of laptop at these events?" is by definition a broad claim.

Even if your answer is "there is no one single type, because it varies" you're still making a broad claim about overall usage patterns.

⬐ StudentStuff

I've aimed to stay within my area of knowledge, eg: conferences I have attended. Not making any broad claims here FYI, merely stating what I've seen firsthand.

⬐ jamesrcole

"what @baldfat said ... is plainly false" is a broad claim

⬐ StudentStuff

It only takes one event not being as he described for that to be false. I've been to dozens.

⬐ jamesrcole

I.e. you're generalising about all events, thus making a broad claim. You can't say the other person is wrong without yourself making a broad claim.

⬐ baldfat

So what was the most popular laptop? The second closest I came across was the Dell XPS 13. I would say around 50% were running with Mac Books.

⬐ StudentStuff

Depends on the conference or event, which conferences or events have you seen that at? I'm pulling my experience from the conferences and events I've regularly attended over the past decade as a broke student in Seattle.

⬐ morganvachon

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Mac laptops one sees at such events are actually running a Linux desktop. Apart from EFI quirks, Macs (especially older Macs) tend to be Linux friendly which extends their life far beyond Apple's official support lifecycle. You can even keep a PPC Mac alive and useful thanks to Linux support.

I've got a 2006 era Mac mini that is only officially supported to 10.6 Snow Leopard; I've managed to install 10.7 Lion via an installer hack, but it's slow and unstable. Meanwhile the most recent releases of Slackware, Debian, and Ubuntu all run fine and in Slackware's case, blazing fast on that old piece of kit.

⬐ baldfat

Linux runs pretty poorly on Apple Hardware. I have tried 2 times and the rule of thumb is 2 generations back has the best support since it takes a while to iron out the bugs. I laugh at people when they say they use Linux on their new Macbooks and they say they have a partition but don't really use it due to something.

Macbook 2016-2017 Not Working

- Input and Output Sound - Doesn't Work

- Suspend - Doesn't Work

- Bluetooth - Doesn't Work

- Touch Id - Doesn't Work (Not surprising)

- Wifi on 13.2.and 13.3; 14.2 and 14.3 - Doesn't Work

https://gist.github.com/roadrunner2/1289542a748d9a104e7baec6...

https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux

⬐ morganvachon

"the rule of thumb is 2 generations back has the best support "

That's exactly what I said, older Macs (as in those no longer supported by Apple) are great candidates for Linux.

⬐ simonh

Were those Linux Desktop events?

The vast majority of uses for Linux are as servers. You could quite legitimately be passionate about Linux servers and use them extensively and promote them heavily, yet have no interest in Linux as a desktop OS whatsoever. In fact I suspect it's the majority case. That's certainly the situations for myself and most of the companies I have worked at. The apps I support and tools I write at work run on Linux, I have a windows dekstop at work and rock a Mac at home.

⬐ stephenr

Same boat here.

Pretty much everything I do commercially and open-source will end up running on - or in the case of Vagrant base box development, IS - a Linux server.

I haven't touched Linux desktop since I had a $work issued HP laptop/genital roasting device, and even then it was never usable enough in our environment. That was pre-2006.

⬐ StudentStuff

> Were those Linux Desktop events?

Probably not, Linux on laptops and desktops is definitely at its peak at free local conferences (eg: LFNW, SeaGL, etc). OSCON, Defcon, and the events that the Linux Foundation promotes on its website are much less apt to have or encourage attendees to use Linux as their desktop, just give their event list a look: http://events.linuxfoundation.org/

⬐ sethammons

Plausible reason: required productivity or meeting software. As a director, he may need to regularly interface with people who don't run Linux friendly software. At work, I was one of the last Linux hold outs. I still had to have a Windows client to connect to many meetings because that software only worked with Windows or Mac. Eventually I gave in and now use a Mac like everyone else at my work.

⬐ simonh

But if you absolutely need to be using a Mac or Windows to do stuff like that, and cant function at that level on Linux, how can it be the 'Year Of The Linux Desktop'?

I'm all for the right tool for the right job, but giving a presentation on the Linux desktop from a Mac is a bit odd. I can see how it could happen though. Maybe he got a Mac a few years ago when he thought the Linux desktop wasn't ready for prime time, now he thinks it is but his personal device update cycle means he's still using the Mac on momentum.

⬐ kirb

Macs are x86(_64) computers with mostly standard hardware. His MacBook, if not the latest (2017/2016), has great support in Linux and should run just fine. Maybe he already does have a dual boot and used macOS for this task for some reason.

⬐ dkarl

This is the year of the Linux desktop? I thought that was 2002. With KDE3 and GNOME 2, for the first time you could mail your elderly relatives unsolicited stacks of CD-Rs and they were running Linux in no time!

On Reddit, someone else with a longer memory thinks it was 1998. [1]

Sadly, I think we're past the peak unless some major new development shakes things up. And, since major new desktop UI developments are more likely to come from Microsoft or Apple than from Linux developers, they are more likely to put desktop Linux further behind rather than breath new life into it.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_...

⬐ soneil

I don't think anyone here is seriously calling it 'the year of the linux desktop'. They're more calling out the hypocrisy that this is what Jim was actually saying at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x1r3Osu1Kg&t=3m26s

⬐ crypt1d

meh... I'm a Linux Ops person, and I shift between Linux/Mac/Windows all the time, depending on what I'm doing at that moment. Sometimes Linux is a PITA (ever tried setting up Bluetooth on it?) so I end up using my macbook and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I still love my Linux though.

There's plenty of space for all OSs to fit in this ecosystem. I thought we were over the 'linux rulz, windows/mac sucks' debate. Guess not.

⬐ simion314

But you are not the Linux Foundation leader, I am sure that he or the foundation can buy a laptop that comes with full Linux support. At least use that in public and at home he can use Macs or Windows.

⬐ StudentStuff

Yeah, I get the stance that the OS should get out of the way and make things simple, my old coworker running OpenSUSE was half the reason I ever started using bluetooth on Linux. Wireless mice are totally awesome!

Fwiw I've had care free support for both my mouse and speakers in both Debian 8 (Jessie) and Debian 9 (Stretch), I think the worst thing has been when I'm over 20ft from the speakers and the audio sink gets a bit delayed & choppy. Haven't had to open a terminal for anything bluetooth related tho.

⬐ soneil

I didn't read this as "linux rulz", but more a reminder of "optics" when you place yourself in a position to represent .. anything.

If Tim Cook had absolutely no idea what the competition were doing, you'd start to wonder if that were negligent. But if he showed up for his keynote wearing an Android Wear watch, you'd start to wonder what was wrong with the dogfood.

This is the conflicting signals they're complaining about. If you proclaim that this is "the year of the linux desktop", and do so from an iPad, I think it's fair for me to question why you thought an iPad was the best tool for the job.

(aside: Please let "the year of the linux desktop" die. It's a running joke that's nearly 20 years old now.)

⬐ INTPenis

Clickbait in my HN?

I advocate open source. I build systems with open source for clients, saving them tons of money. I run Mac OS at work. My personal laptop runs Fedora though.

I use KVM as a hypervisor. I run Turris Omnia for wifi at home. I've made my own OpenBSD router at home.

I'm not a director. I'm a techie-nerd. I still run Mac OS.

This video is complete BS.

⬐ sammorrowdrums

I actually wrote the link title differently, as I didn't like the clickbait question mark. It was edited by a mod, to be the actual title of the video which is fair, but I can see why it would irk you!

⬐ davexunit

This is one of the lesser reasons why the Linux Foundation is terrible. The Linux Foundation as a whole couldn't give less of a shit about free and open source software. They welcome companies that violate Linux contributors copyright with open arms.

⬐ peterbonney

When Alan Mulally took the reins at Ford, he famously kept driving his Lexus at first [1]. It delivered a message - maybe not one that Ford employees wanted to hear, but probably one they needed to hear.

Of course Linux devs aren't employees and the director of the Linux Foundation isn't their CEO. Nonetheless, perhaps there is a challenging but important message here that one could reflect upon quietly rather than ranting about.

1. http://www.leftlanenews.com/new-ford-ceo-drives-a-lexus.html

⬐ hs86

Linux is used by these members of the Linux Foundation [1] because they earn money with it and not because the world is going to be a better place. Among these significant members do you see any company that is building products or services around the Linux desktop and is having a major success with it?

There is no money to make with the Linux desktop and therefore the director of the Linux foundation does not need to promote desktop Linux by using it himself. Just who is going to build the next AWS or Cloudfare with Linux just because he saw the latest Gnome/KDE on some dude's laptop?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation#Members

⬐ Thoreandan

Can't find a link right now, but Steve Jobs, when he was acting as Interim CEO at Apple, used a NeXT computer for his own desktop -- it was a significant event (maybe the Power Mac G4 Cube?) when Steve changed over to running OS X for his own use.

Perhaps the twelve Platinum Members could donate 1 engineer each (for a team of 12 - https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/ ) to spend a year focusing on the issues (Codecs? Desktop tweaks? Interoperability?) to get people like the CEO able to function with 100% Linux. I wonder if SuSE would be functional for the job.

⬐ peterkelly

The kind of extremist religious zeal exhibited in this video is the worst aspect of the Linux community.

⬐ talaketu

extreme zeal is the worst aspect? ok, great.

⬐ StudentStuff

If you don't feel supportive of that zeal, or are on the wrong end of it, extreme zeal can be quite off putting.

That being said, it is far from the worst part of the community, that is by far reserved for the bullshit that some community members have pulled on those of us that are female. I've seen talking down to active Ubuntu Local Community heads at conferences and local happenings put on by said Ubuntu LoCos and it is HORRIBLE. Why the fuck do certain people feel the need to repeatedly harass a volunteer?

⬐ StudentStuff

Bryan is just that type though, having attended multiple (fairly good) talks by him, he is happy to call you on your bullshit. Yes, he'll say Pulseaudio sucked, and call out X11 as the insecure pile it is. He is a straight shooter though, you know exactly what to expect.

Thats why the group that makes the OS on most grocer's POS systems employs him, he is basically #QuitYourBullshit IRL, with some humor on top.

⬐ tomrod

I appreciate the call out's intent, but I don't agree that having an OS preference is a negative, even in this case. At work I am required to use Windows even though I have a strong Linux preference. The cross platform experience makes me all the more aware of the differences in use and productivity.

Anyhow, my $0.02

⬐ simion314

But if you were the leader of Windows/Mac/Ubuntu(other distro) and you promote your product but you do not use it ,is not this a sign that your product is not that good? Or the Mozilla leaders go on a presentation using Chrome, IMO Linux Foundation seems to be focused on the financial success of Linux and not on the freedom ideals.

⬐ tallanvor

I mean, if the Linux Foundation ran their website on IIS, then sure, that would be a bad sign for Linux.

But given that the vast majority of products this foundation supports are server-oriented, it's clear that they are not as concerned about desktop usage at this time. So whether he's running Linux, Mac, or Windows on a laptop is pretty irrelevant.

⬐ pyroinferno

He says in like the first 30 seconds of the video "It's the year of the Linux Desktop"...

⬐ tpush

Well, he did declare the "Year of the Linux desktop" on stage. So..

⬐ ddevault

He's... the director of the Linux Foundation. It's like saying Nadia uses a Mac or Cook uses a Windows machine. I mean, the Linux Foundation is hardly a respected entity, but they could at least try to appear legitimate on the surface!

⬐ tyingq

In a way, there is a similarity with Tim Cook. Anything he demos that has a backend server (iCloud, etc) is running on Linux.

Though the "optics" is less of an issue since it's not visible.

⬐ zeckalpha

iCloud is running Linux?

⬐ tyingq

Yes, Apple appears to be using Linux as their standard server for anything on the back end.

Here's an iCloud engineer job posting.

https://jobs.apple.com/us/search?#&ss=Linux&t=1&so=&lo=0*USA...

Edit: Or perhaps you meant the errant typo where I should have said "on Linux"? Fixed.

⬐ jasonkostempski

Mac is really the only choice for someone that has to be able to develop and test for everything because Apple products can only be developed and tested on Apple hardware and software, everything else can be run in VMs or dual booted.

⬐ neo4sure

Wel at least he wasn't running a windows machine....

⬐ red023

You should look up his first interview with Richard Stallman, this guy was driving me crazy. He is the opposite of religious. He did not even understand what Free Software is back then, it was absolutely pathetic.

So good on him on this one.

⬐ throwawaymanbot

In fairness, hes right. No president of Ford would drive up to his job at Ford in his Toyota Camry.

⬐ jwildeboer

I am Red Hat's EMEA Evangelist. I do my work on a Lenovo X1 Carbon running Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I also use a privately owned Macbook for video editing and an iPad to watch movies when flying.

There's a good tool for every job. For most of my day to day stuff Linux is an excellent choice. But for some tasks it just is too poor compared to other solutions.

As I must make choices on what to spend my precious time, it will always be in favour of an Open Source solution where the invested time is worth it but sometimes also the pragmatic decision to use something else.

I have always been open about this and I have been attacked, also by Bryan, who blocks me almost everywhere for that.

So be it. I will always happily sit down with developers to explain why I am not (yet) using their solution and I will always listen to their explanations on why I might be having wrong expectations. IMHO especially on the desktop it's a process to get to better solutions, not a binary switch.

Attacking people for not complying with your criteria is simply wrong and messed up. You win by convincing, not by shouting down. Simple.