HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ kibwen

Extremely excited. As someone who first got into DF a bit after Boatmurdered, fighting the impenetrable and inconsistent UI was seen as a rite of passage, though at the same time it prevented a lot of people from being able to appreciate this gem of the game. And the amazing thing is... it looks good! I've seen texture packs for DF and they're usually just OK, but never enough to drag me away from the classic glyphs. But IMO this looks better than any texture pack I've seen. The art is clear, delightful, and thematically-consistent, which is an achievement considering how small the sprites are and how much stuff is in this game that you have to depict. I gasped in surprise watching them scroll up through Z-levels in a livestream, realizing that you could see detailed cross-sections of trees with tapering branches and leaves (which change color with the seasons) as you ascend.

And the UI actually looks reasonable now! I was concerned that Tarn might not have any talent at UX, but all the rearranged menus appear to be extremely thoughtful and optimized for convenience while still retaining the bevy of keybinds that power users crave. They've incorporated some ideas from third-party tools to make managing dwarves easier as well.

Overall I'm not sure if DF is still the indisputable champion of weirdly-obsessively-thorough game simulations as of 2022, what with Rimworld and the like nipping at its heels, but I'll be getting this for sure.

EDIT: Here's an hour-long live demo with Tarn and Zach from two months ago (I believe they've polished the UI even more since then): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-FCtGdwMI

⬐ Sharlin

I doubt any of the competitors have anything even remotely approaching the worldgen complexity of DF, even if some aspects of the gameplay simulation might be comparable to DF’s equivalents. And the Myth&Magic arc (that should begin in earnest once the Steam version is stable) will vastly increase the depth of the world’s history and permit many, many more aspects of the world and its inhabitants to be "evolved" (with lots of tweakable parameters) for each generated world separately rather than hardcoded or just naively randomized. Another thing that is expected to vastly improve over the next several years is how "alive" the worlds are – how much things continue ticking outside your fortress during gameplay, and how your fortress affects and is affected by the events, politics, and subterfuge in the world at large.

⬐ drakythe

Worth noting: Tarn and Zac seem to have had very very little to do with the actual UI beyond feedback, providing data retrieval endpoints, and sometimes reorganizing how data was deliver. Kitfox games are the ones delivering the UI.

⬐ bjelkeman-again

Boatmurdered had me laughing out loud. I really wanted to get into DF, but the learning curve stopped me.

I wrote to some friends earlier:

> The World is about to end. Dwarf Fortress GUI version to release December 6…

And a friend replied:

> I'm scared to pick that game up - afraid it will become a black hole in my life. Never played it but it always looked very interesting

I am scared now. :)

⬐ kibwen

Doing a succession fortress with your friends, just like Boatmurdered, can be great fun (until someone fills the attic with lava, Zach). In the video linked above I believe they even mention a feature designed to make it easier to share the save between friends to make it easier to play succession games.

EDIT: from https://youtu.be/uE-FCtGdwMI?t=2425 :

"We have a new system where you can group your saves by timeline. It's mainly for the title screen but it also lets you share them with people in different ways. [...] So you can have your own little Boatmurdered experience."

⬐ pull_my_finger

As a fan of roguelikes (not saying DF is a roguelike)/turn-based/grid-based games, I wish more of these "classical" games would take a look at the HUGE improvements to animation/motion that Jupiter Hell implemented. Seeing a game be released in 2022 and the character still mechanically slides from one grid cell to the next is painful. Not saying a hate it or wouldn't play a game that still does it, but seems to be holding the related genres back.

⬐ Y_Y

Years ago I saw someone describe Dwarf Fortress as "more like reading a book than watching a movie". That is to say that you're given the information in a minimal, symbolic way and then the heavy lifting in creating the mental image is done by your imagination.

Fwiw, I did try using various graphical tilesets over the years but went back to the old-school glyphs (or rather the unicode setup that lets you run the game in a normal terminal).

⬐ red_trumpet

Personally, I quite like "CLA's ASCII-like Graphics Set", which tries to strike a middle ground. In particular, square tiles are non-negotiable for me.

[1] https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Graphics_set_...

⬐ Sharlin

Sliding animation may or may not happen in a later version. Currently the units just teleport from cell to cell. Expecting real walking etc animations in an indie game that features hundreds of different unit sprites – with very different body plans – is just silly. Especially given that the whole Steam version only exists due to the non-first-world healthcare system of the US that forced the brothers to seek an additional source of income besides donations. Honestly, the Steam version is a charity project first and foremost. Otherwise graphics and UI work would be very low on Bay 12’s priority.

⬐ causi

Wow, I had no idea it was still going to be like that in the final Steam version. It looks more like an amateur overlay someone could have cranked out in a month than a years-long project. Frankly that jank makes me prefer the original graphics. At least you expect single glyphs to blink around.

⬐ red_trumpet

If you take a look at their blog[1], you might realize that the Steam release is about more than slapping on a texture pack. AFAICT they overhauled most of the UI.

[1] https://bay12games.com/dwarves/

⬐ alpaca128

It was communicated from the start what the Steam version would look like. But also they significantly sped up world generation and built a graphical UI, among other things. That alone is a good reason for me to prefer "that jank".

> It looks more like an amateur overlay someone could have cranked out in a month than a years-long project

We both know that's not remotely true. They're not even done drawing all the graphics yet and that's not exactly because of laziness. And on the technical side this is a game built over 20 years without animated graphics in mind.

⬐ causality0

Is having characters face the direction they're moving really that big of an ask? I'm no master developer but comparing two X coordinates and picking a left-facing or right-facing sprite seems like the kind of thing computers are good at.

⬐ pixl97

>Is having characters face the direction they're moving really that big of an ask?

For one character, probably not, but if you have 200 dwarfs and a large goblin raid is flooding your gates with about as many units you now have another coupling between the logic and UI that must be tracked bringing your fortress closer to FPS death at earlier stages.

⬐ alpaca128

> Is having characters face the direction they're moving really that big of an ask?

DF has over ten intelligent species, countless animals and other creatures that include oddities like weresloths. Should all of those be drawn in different orientations? There is a lot of variety you could add graphically based on, say, a dwarves' current activity, mental state and so on but you have to draw the line somewhere if the game is supposed to actually release. They did make some other improvements like a less cryptic graphical representation of terrain.

From what I've seen a lot of the development work for the Steam release was about reducing the technical debt that accumulated over the years and now just had to be paid in order to integrate new features and improvements.

⬐ causality0

Then why draw them facing left instead of facing out like the smiley face?

Should all of those be drawn in different orientations?

Literally all you need is a single mirroring. Left and right. That's enough so your characters don't spend half their time moonwalking. It looks ridiculous.

⬐ dilznoofus

Because (1) they originally used the '' character. In ASCII, the cat is 'c'. Does it bother you that it doesn't turn around?

Does it bother you that they aren't facing up/north? Why not?

I can't say I've ever heard anyone complain about 'sliding' or 'moonwalking' before. Mostly because they're just disappearing from one coordinate and appearing in the neighbouring one.

⬐ Kiro

I don't see any sliding here, only hopping from one tile to another without anything in-between.

Anyway, that's just your opinion. I greatly prefer this to Jupiter Hell and I don't even understand how you can compare the two. Jupiter Hell looks like a generic top-down isometric 3D game.

⬐ AndrewOMartin

Let's take a moment to honour and respect all the coursework assignments, fitness regimes, and relationships that will go unattended due to this news. You were never meant for this world.

⬐ nix23

I changed to cataclysm, but maybe i should give df another try.

https://cataclysmdda.org/

⬐ glenstein

Cataclysm is such an extraordinary game, especially for free. I believe it will have it's day in sun soon enough.

⬐ pixl97

Latest update: Candy bracelets no longer made of flesh....

Hmm, ok this is getting my attention.

⬐ nix23

>I believe it will have it's day in sun soon enough.

I really hope that for the dev's, they make an excellent job!

⬐ omeysalvi

The game is a legend for the possibilities it offers for emergent gameplay. Probably one day we can have its code open sourced, like its creators once wanted to, and take a peek behind its complex systems.

⬐ airza

It must be a rat’s nest at this point. As much as i love the game, from the outside I am guessing that an autodidact c++ application that has been releasing more and more slowly over a decade is drowning in technical debt.

⬐ wolfram74

When the jank comes up I wonder for a few moments how one would architect something like this in retrospect.

⬐ ShredKazoo

It has loads of bugs as well -- the DF community finds them charming, but personally I quit after a while because I found them annoying. Planning my fortress around bug exploitation felt dirty; trying not to exploit them made the game seem like a job.

⬐ carabiner

Hope they add 3d graphics like Stonesense some day: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/snrx46/the_c...

⬐ barroomhero

I'm assuming/hoping it will be one of the first Steam Workshop creations, once that's available.

⬐ xwdv

Honestly the major upgrade I would have loved to have seen was some kind of multi-threading for better performance on modern machines. Anyone who has played Dwarf Fortress with custom graphic tile sets has already played DF with good enough graphics. These graphics are good but what makes a game good isn’t the graphics.

⬐ RupertEisenhart

I do agree about the multithreading, but I think better menus will probably make quite a big difference to the playability. I'm looking forward to getting into weapons and armour and more of the army screens that I never bothered taking the time to really penetrate.

⬐ gareth_untether

Seeing the demo has peaked my interest to try it again. The learning curve I found too extreme last time. Mainly due to not being able to quickly understand what a text symbol was. The colours and graphics will certainly help me.

More than anything I've really enjoyed really people's stories from the game.

⬐ andybak

(just so you know it's "piqued my interest" - hope you don't mind the minor correction)

⬐ lemoncookiechip

I'm so excited for this.

⬐ Azrael3000

There's some more info on steam [0] about the release.

TL/DR: 30 $, Legend mode for sure, Arena and Classic mode maybe or a few weeks after. More updates (graphics, Mac & Linux support) a bit later. Adventure mode will follow.

[0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/

⬐ JBits

The menus, particularly for fortress mode, aren't the easiest so I'm looking forward to a reworked version in the Steam edition but I'm not sure if I'll play it if there isn't an ASCII mode.

⬐ wwfzyn

Just noting that if the healthcare system were better in the US there would not be any incentive for DF to get better quickly.

There has to be a good solution to the problem of productivity when all of one's needs are met.

⬐ ThrowawayTestr

Finally! I've always wanted to play this game but could never get over the graphics.

⬐ ingenieros

For anyone nitpicking the animations, UI or graphics choice... Please go and read about the reasons which drove the Adams brothers to finally cash in on their 20 year long passion project. Spoiler alert: cancer and inadequate health care coverage is a terrible combination.

⬐ wisnoskij

These guys have been getting donated like 5-20k per months for a over a decade.

⬐ RHSeeger

I'm not sure what your point is on this; whether you're saying they make plenty of money, or not enough, or if you're not really speaking to whether it's enough. But speaking directly to the numbers

- The smallest monthly amount the article mentions is $3,000 / month

- The highest monthly amount the article mentions is $8,181 / month (Dec 2104)

- The current number seems to indicate $6,999 / month

- $7,000 * 12 = $84 / year

- Split between two people, that's $42,000 / year each

- General rule of thumb is that the cost for an employee doubles their salary (to account for expenses such as health care, supplies, taxes, etc). So assume they're actually making less than that. We'll make it $30,000 since the overhead for a contractor is less than that for an employee.

$30,000 per year is not a lot of money to live on.

⬐ wisnoskij

I am seeing some 16ks if this graph is correct (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/5gbwz3/i_plo...)

My point is responding to "For anyone nitpicking the animations, UI or graphics choice... Please go and read about the reasons which drove the Adams brothers to finally cash in on their 20 year long passion project." They have been cashing in for a decade, it is a profession game put out by a decently paid experienced team, if I want to have a problem with the graphics or gui at whatever price they are charging, I will do so.

Including patron, it looks like they averaged over 11k per month last year.

⬐ RHSeeger

> decently paid experienced team

If you're talking about the team they have doing the front end work for them, sure. But if you're talking about the two DF developers, certainly not. They've been making money on the game for years, sure... but a relatively low amount of money on the game, certainly not something I'd label as "cashing in". Rather, I think they believe the Steam move is "cashing in" because they hope it will bring them a lot more money; an amount I would help is better aligned with their work.

⬐ dilznoofus

$7k tends to be on the higher end, but it ends up fluctuating wildly

When he releases a new version, people pay attention and donate. When he takes time to introduce fun features that drive excitement, people don't donate because he doesn't release.

He occasionally adds a gentle ask for donations at the end of his progress blogposts, and it seems more like a guy who hates having to ask and would prefer to ignore money - which also seems like his entire personality.

⬐ AndrewOMartin

A not-fit-for-purpose American Healthcare system bought us Breaking Bad, and now this.

⬐ nmilo

Have some respect.

⬐ canadianfella

None

⬐ fnordpiglet

Link to read up ?

Edit: here

https://www.vice.com/en/article/8xypb5/the-dwarf-fortress-cr...

⬐ dilznoofus

For a general thing, the NYT profile of Zach and Tarn from DF being in the MoMA is great, but that was 2011:

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-o...

"Zach brought over a drinking glass from the house in case I got thirsty, because Tarn owns only a couple of dishes. In the fridge were three sodas and a jug of water and nothing else. Tarn said I was welcome to anything, although the jug technically belonged to Scamps — the tap water has something in it that makes the cat refuse to drink it. Tarn consumed “maybe one glass” of water in the last three months, hydrating with soft drinks instead. “Water’s not doing it for me these days,” he said. “I know it’s bad, but the sugar goes right into programming the game. If I don’t drink soda now, I get a headache and can’t do any work.”

Tarn has had to deal with fans haranguing him about his health for a while. It's been a pretty common meme in DF culture to wonder what's going to happen to the codebase when Tarn passes it, with heavy implication that it'll never get to v1.0.

" . . . in the only moment I heard him speak with anything like bitterness, Tarn called Minecraft a “depressing distillation of our own stuff.” He paused, adding more magnanimously that the game “has its own things going for it.” The problem, he concluded, “isn’t with Minecraft so much as it’s with society.”

⬐ ingenieros

I'd also recommend watching this interview NOCLIP recently did with Tarn where he talks specifically about the Steam release... https://youtu.be/VAhHkJQ3KgY?t=1199