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Berger's work is profoundly valuable. Ways of Seeing, the book, was my first encounter with him, and I looked at art and persuasion differently from then on.

I learned later that book was based on a TV show from the early 70's, which is on YouTube and is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDE4VX_9Kk

⬐ nanna

Berger actually made a few more documentaries with the sane producer as he made Ways of Sleeing with, Mike Dibb, and they're all worth seeing.

http://mikedibb.co.uk/films.php?filter=Berger

⬐ nanna

That'll teach me to posts things on HN before I've found my glasses.

⬐ TaylorAlexander

Highly recommended watching for anyone who hasn’t seen it!

⬐ thundergolfer

I started reading it yesterday. It’s fantastic, and probably takes only a few hours to get through. Essential reading.

⬐ flarg

I second this comment. Ways of Seeing fundamentally changed the way we look at art and by extension the world.

⬐ briandoll

Here's a great talk relating Ways of Seeing to Ways of Selling as it pertains to software and communities from Deconstruct Conf in 2017: https://www.deconstructconf.com/2017/michael-bernstein-ways-...

My favourite one is John Berger / Ways of Seeing. It's available on youtube [0]. If you enjoy photography you might enjoying this documentary as well. I think it's very much related to the recent topic https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32794757

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDE4VX_9Kk

Extremely relevant to this is the excellent program Ways of Seeing by John Berger:

https://youtu.be/0pDE4VX_9Kk

> But is it good writing? No, not really.

agree. I'd say it's impossible to solve. Where would we even place our yardsticks:

Has society been able to get any better (than we used to) at assessing and categorizing what "constitutes" great writing? If so in what relation could that be measured to our past performance especially that many no longer read today due to our loss of attention span? (most won't even read this comment because it's way too long).

People are terrible at spotting some of the best writing when it happens. History is full of writers who's work could only be understood and appreciated after their death.[1] Death makes their work a finite commodity. There is no more chance asking the author "what they meant". Others get shunned because they were too radical, (or too ahead of their times).

Great writers as in "a radical new style" or as "for their radical ideas" get only credited after decades (if not centuries) post mortem. When it's too upsetting (because it's true) we need the distance of history and later generations to appreciate it[2].

Even "what" we comprehend and then appreciate changes over time, and within the same person with every time we read it[3].

[1] 6 people centuries ahead of their time https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/6-people-centuries-ah... <- there are hundreds of wrtiers like this (it is just the top result google gave me). How would an AI spot it when all AI was created "in our image". And if it did spot it how would the AI be able to convince us that this is worth a closer look instead that we need to destroy the AI?

[2] The Last Messiah by Peter Wessel Zapffe https://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah <- say something mediocre to ensure you get published and ranked in "best new books". But saying something profound can potentially get you ignored (at best) and killed (at worst). This ties back to[1]

[3] James Joyce Dubliners https://archive.org/details/dubliners00joycrich / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubliners <- there are hundreds of examples like Dubliners but they are all different books depending on who reads them and when. the retrospect and integrating what we read (and then re-read over and over at various stages of our lives) into our own reality is what is makes it great. yet even if some minority of people does practice this, it's still highly subjective. how would an AI provide us with value (e.g. if it can the value it creates would only benefit itself but never others)

__

I'm not saying AI is incapable of better writing than AI is now, but it would only remain mediocre and never outperform humans. Also the writing can't stand or be judged by itself. It can only be valued and appreciated through human mind. Art (and many books are art) has the same problematic relationship with AI. John Berger's "Ways of seeing" talks about this (but so does a lot of philosophy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDE4VX_9Kk

⬐ Kelamir

> (most won't even read this comment because it's way too long).

I admit I was going to skip it, but I saw a reference to a James Joyce's book and reconsidered :)

> Exactly the same goes for painting

the casual videos of John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" / "Art of Looking" have taught me (an ignorant pleb) more about how to "get" art than any opinions from art critics. There is so much pretentiousness and gate-keeping in this field it's insane. Just enjoy and see what it brings to the surface is all there is to it IMO.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDE4VX_9Kk&list=PLn6KyJ4PmZ...

⬐ yesenadam

> the casual videos of John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" / "Art of Looking" have taught me (an ignorant pleb) more about how to "get" art than any opinions from art critics.

I dearly love Berger's work too, but..it consists of an art critic (Berger) offering his opinions, so I'm a bit confused by your comment.

⬐ dagw

You do realize that John Berger is an art critic, right?

This is a really great (and relatively short) program.

Here’s a link to the first episode: https://youtu.be/0pDE4VX_9Kk

The rest of them are there as well. Go ahead and give it a watch!

⬐ hpliferaft

And if you enjoy Ways of Seeing in all its retro-critical glory and need MOAR, check out Robert Hughes's The Shock of the New: https://youtu.be/J3ne7Udaetg

I can highly recommend John Berger's legendary documentary series Ways Of Seeing. The first episode explores precisely this issue - how our perception of painting is affected by reproduction. It has perhaps the most arresting opening scene of any documentary series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDE4VX_9Kk

⬐ lqet

Ah, yes, I watched this series a few years ago and just realized that it may have inspired my post above a bit.

PS: I just shamelessly throw in another excellent BBC documentary series here: How Buildings Learn, by Stewart Brand [0]. I sometimes see it mentioned here on HN, but it cannot be mentioned too often. If you haven't seen it, please please do.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0

⬐ dredmorbius

Thank you, that is truly excellent and has spawned a productive rabbit hole exploring topics I've been considering.

⬐ beat

My favorite painting in the world is Jackson Pollock's Mural, his first major painting. It's owned by my alma mater the U of Iowa. The canvas is 9x20 iirc, just huge. They used to display it in a large central gallery, where you could look at it from more than 50 feet away, or get your nose right up to it.

One of the great things about this painting is how it is a totally different experience at different distances. From a distance, the sense of right-to-left motion is palpable. Get closer, and figures seem to pop out of it. But really close, you can no longer see the entire painting, but you can see individual brushstrokes (mostly 3-6" house painting brushes, I think). The subtlety and detail of each stroke is extraordinary. There are patterns across the canvas that are a result of large-scale patterns of strokes - it's almost like cursive handwriting.

⬐ jdietrich

I had a similar experience seeing Summertime Number 9A in the Tate. It just looks like meaningless squiggles when reproduced on a postcard, but in person you can see the structure, the layers of line and shape.

You may be interested in this video by the Getty Conservation Institute on the conservation of Mural:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWAbVpkV0jQ

⬐ bunderbunder

Another of my favorite examples of the "reproduction doesn't do any justice" is Mark Rothko. Like Pollock, he's often held up as example of an artist whose work "doesn't look like anything" and "my kid could do that." And it's true, if you're looking at a poster of a Rothko, it just looks like some large splotches of color.

But, in a gallery, people encounter the Rothko and just stop. Many of them will stare at those large splotches of color for 1, 2, 5, even 10 minutes. Turns out there's a whole lot going on there that just doesn't translate into print.

Sadly, a lot of the techniques that abstract expressionists used don't translate well into the future, either. Layering just oil paint, that's pretty durable. Layering different kinds of paint, not so much. I've seen a fly dislodge a flake of paint from one of Rothko's paintings just by landing on it.

⬐ largolagrande

You might be interested by this video about the challenges faced by conservation scientists with Rothko murals : https://vimeo.com/111469325

⬐ casi18

Such an amazing thinker. I'd recommend Bento's Sketchbook as well.

I also really enjoyed this interview with him if you have 15 mins spare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVBgzqMGYtA

⬐ petermcneeley

Episodes 2&3 are far more interesting. They focus on paintings as depicting ownership of property. Episode 2 is ownership of females. Episode 3 as ownership of all other property. A history lesson through classical art.

⬐ beebmam

Yes, couldn't agree more with episodes 2&3. This TV series is a profoundly valuable introduction into how to think critically about art (and other cultural products).

⬐ AltruisticGap

Episode 4 on how we are surrounded by images of "alternate ways of life" is amazing... it's like "taking the red pill" in the Matrix. So much things we take for granted, never even question, taht we take to be the "normal" way of life.

edit: YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jTUebm73IY

⬐ RubenSandwich

Michael Bernstein did a great job explaining the context around this work for Deconstruct Conf 2017. It's worth a watch:

https://www.deconstructconf.com/2017/michael-bernstein-ways-...

⬐ briga

More poetry than documentary. Really thoughtful stuff. Interesting to note how prophetic the closing words of the episode turned out.

⬐ dingosity

awesome. i don't normally think of the y-combinator crowd as being into art criticism. thanks for proving me wrong.

⬐ isomorph

Life-changer. I read the book based on this series [1] when I was progressing from doodling / being mostly unaware of visual art to being interested in (seeing and making) visual art. I've never looked back.

In the book, the image quality in it is low so I recommend watching the TV series as linked

[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/014103579X/ref=asc_df_014103579X...

⬐ elymar

Apparently this is the #1 best seller in "Massage Techniques".

⬐ isomorph

Haha just seen that. Amazon need a bit of help with their categorisation, unless I've forgotten an important part of the book...

⬐ JansjoFromIkea

It's weird that such a big book hasn't had a upgraded version, the pictures are all super low red b&w iirc?

That being said, the book is such a quick read I think a person could afford to both read the book and watch the show.

Allow me to recommend the 1972 documentary series "Ways of Seeing" by John Berger. It is an astonishingly prescient examination of our changing visual culture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDE4VX_9Kk&list=PLlhSx0L1hp...

⬐ asoplata

Will def check it out, thanks!

⬐ branchless

There is also a book of the same name. It's very thought provoking.