HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

> No warnings, nothing that stopped you.

I'm not sure I follow why this is a good thing. Having the option is good, but some sort of a sanity check and a warning dialog just seems like looking out for your users.

For example, I recently used Linux on the desktop as my daily driver and wrote about my experiences [1]. At one point, I considered that the system was perhaps a bit of a mess in regards to the installed packages and, not wanting to do a clean reinstall, I figured that I'd just reinstall Python in particular.

There's nothing mystifying about running an apt remove command, nor is there anything outrageous about the idea of removing some software and then later reinstalling it. However, as it turns out, this would probably break certain parts of the system, so I got a helpful warning instead:

  After this operation, 1 244 MB disk space will be freed.
  You are about to do something potentially harmful.
  To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'

By that time I had already entered "y" and pressed enter, not bothering to read the message, since the rest of the prompt looked like it normally would, so instead I got this output:

  Abort.

And nothing broke. I think systems should look out more for the users like that, which would give the OS less of a bad reputation.

Of course, it won't always save you, like Linus from LTT still ignored such a warning and ruined his install somewhat [2].

[1] https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/a-week-of-linux-instead-of-...

[2] https://youtu.be/0506yDSgU7M?t=634

⬐ helf

Don’t get me start on LTT.

Same dipshits who ran ZFS on top of unRAID. And unRAID is already an abomination.

grumbles

⬐ ilyt

About Linus, I've migrated some people to Debian purely because they managed to fuck up the Ubuntu (or one of its flavours) upgrade somehow... and those were not linux-illiterate people. I dunno what it is but Ubuntu have weirdly higher rate of fuckups on upgrade than we've seen with Debian. Hell, it even survived that one time one of our admins upgraded by 2 releases of debian at once...

Might be conjecture based on small sample size I have for Debian, but what Linus was doing shouldn't really fuck anything up... Steam package in Debian "just installed"

⬐ BirAdam

This could have been something as simple as bad install media, ignoring dpkg error messages, incompatible package versions if something was manually installed, etc.

Linux these days is quite a bit easier, but there are still edge cases that can cause problems.

⬐ bombolo

You can't get views with a video where you don't do anything weird and stuff just works.

⬐ KronisLV

That's an interesting point of view!

In my experience, DEB distros have somehow been more stable than RPM ones, but Debian and Ubuntu wouldn't be an order of magnitude off from one another (aside from Ubuntu giving you more leeway in regards to proprietary software out of the box).

Well, maybe apart from the whole "snap" debacle, which is more of an architectural issue in my eyes, going around the package manager (and even then doing it in a way that's a bit more counter-culture than what AppImage or Flatpak does; even if I can understand their desire for automatic updates).

Then again, I have no issue using Docker containers and actually liked older Ubuntu LTS Unity desktop environment (which was stable in my experience, contrary to what others experienced), so maybe I'm a bit of an oddball here.

Not a good alternative for the big middle distribution of computer skills of the computer user base. Web browser only? Great. Highly skilled? Great. Everyone else? It can be a nightmare. Linus' Linux Challenge videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M) provide excellent insight into the typical user experience for anyone beyond web browser only requirements and beneath administrator level. If you find yourself saying "what an idiot, how did he not know that "do as I say" would mangle his OS," you're definitively in the highly skilled camp.

Linux UX convention relies on the terminal as a matter of course. Almost everything not in the package manager requires use of the terminal. Even many of the package managed applications require tweaks and configuration via terminal. It's an open secret that package managers are largely inferior to the terminal anyway, in every distribution. The almost universal response to "I am having an issue with the package manager" is "use terminal." Bottom line: terminal is far less user friendly than an object oriented environment, and is often much slower. Until a flavour of Linux exists which never ever, for any reason ever, requires the use of the terminal, Linux will remain in the low single digits in terms of consumer market share. I don't think this will change, because if you ask the average Linux developer what they think of the terminal convention, they love it, and they think users just need to stop sucking so much.

⬐ DoingIsLearning

Whenever people mentioned Linux UX and computer knowledge I always feel like I should evangelize that Zorin OS is alive and well, now at Zorin Core 16.

I use it for my parents, after they got fed up with Windows warnings and pop-ups for Windows 10 upgrade.

I am not sure they full understand they are using Linux, they just assume it is a 'free' windows version.

⬐ tartoran

Can you compare Zorin to Ubuntu?

⬐ DoingIsLearning

Zorin 16 is based on Ubuntu 20.04.3, so everything you are used to is still there. The only difference is in the UI, with 'Windowish' looking widgets and a focus on usability for non-technical folks.

There are some more extra bells and whistles, as well as service support, in the pro version but I haven't used those in my family computers so I can't comment on that.

I don't want to be dismissive, Zorin is a massive effort but it is mostly a DE change, but it's a DE where they actually thought of the typical non-technical user and cater brilliantly to that.

⬐ pcdoodle

Zorin looks pretty cool! just spent some time looking through their site.

⬐ Gareth321

Thanks for the suggestion. I've never used it so I'll boot up a VM and give it a go.

I will be honest with you: I don't expect Zorin to have solved the CLI problem. For example, Radarr is an extremely popular tool for managing movies. It connects to usenet and torrent clients, as well as indexers and movie databases. It makes maintaining a home movie collection seamless.

Radarr is not in major package managers, and requires the CLI for install (https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux). In Windows, I double click an .exe. On Zorin (I assume) I will have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, full of opportunities to misconfigure the install.

This is just one example of many. Radarr isn't a super hardcore 1337 program. It's a very common application aimed at everyone who runs Plex. Until Zorin has a .exe equivalent for all applications like this, it's just not going to be a competitor to Windows, for users who need more than just a web browser, and those who are not IT administrators.

> If it's a desktop nothing should go wrong.

Should isn't won't.

https://youtu.be/0506yDSgU7M

⬐ Dylan16807

I don't recall that series having much in the way of hardware problems, excluding the goxlr and such because that's not part of the desktop.

If it was unclear that my sentence was in the scope of hardware, sorry.

I remember Luke saying multiple monitors broke at one point on his laptop, but that was a laptop.

The recent Linux Challenge [0] on Linus Tech Tips has helped raise Linux's profile for gaming. Linus Sebastian's enthusiasm for the upcoming Steam Deck has really raised the channel's appetite for Linux Content and as such is exposing it much more to its audience.

We also have Anthony Young to thank for laying the groundwork for Linux Content on LTT, and in turn we have Linux content on LTT to thank for a greater awareness, acceptance and adoption of Linux among gamers (helped, of course, by the advancements being done by Valve with Proton, Steam Play, the Steam Deck, SteamOS 3.0, Steam Input, DXVK and all the rest).

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M

⬐ fartcannon

That series is embarrassing for Linus and therefore Canada. It's OK to not know how to use another OS, but the petulance on display is too much when he screws up something obvious. And then to use his platform as he does to lecture at a group clearly far more skilled than he is... Luke is better, but Luke puts on kid gloves when he talks to Linus and doesn't state the obvious.

It's just a shame. It had a lot of potential.

This is in response to Linus (tech tips) trying to install Steam in his Linux daily driver challenge.

https://youtu.be/0506yDSgU7M?t=597

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M

Linus Tech Tips wanted to try Linux and see how user friendly it was. Somehow the PopOS steam package decided to uninstall the whole DE. Say what you want about the warnings he ignored,why is this even possible on a PopOS type system? Linus has pointed out that without understanding the terminology and packages, you would have no idea what the error message means. I think user friendly distros are much better but have quite a ways to go.

Also as Linus points out, even picking the right distro is tough if you don't already know a lot of the Linux terminology.

⬐ gavinray

  >  Somehow the PopOS steam package decided to uninstall the whole DE.

Jesus, not a great look.

  > Also as Linus points out, even picking the right distro is tough if you don't already know a lot of the Linux terminology.

Good point

⬐ programd

In addition to the how intrinsically interesting this video is in highlighting the rough edges of modern Linux distros, The Register ties it into a war of words between the System76 PopOS! developers and GNOME developers [1]

It seems that 2021 is still not the year of the Linux desktop. The Linus video and the PopOS!/GNOME spat are perfect illustrations of why.

[1] https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/10/system76_gnome_deskto...

Its an idiom (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/and-then-the-whole-bus-clappe...)

My point is that I can make stuff up too! If you need evidence that linux is just not ready for non-technical user prime time just take a look at the ltt video from yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M

⬐ esarbe

I certainly doubt that this is evidence that linux is not ready for non-technical user prime time. Why?

Because that kind of shit also happens on Windows. With administrative access, you can always kill your machine.

What Linux lacks and what Windows has more then enough is informal support services. You know, that person in the family that just knows their way around computers, that does computer stuff.

(Almost) every elderly person above a certain age is lost when it comes to computers. Most people alive cannot be trusted to install an application - not on Windows, not on Linux and not even on OS X (well, maybe on OS X nowadays, because you cannot install unsigned software these days) because all that software might be compromised. Every time you let a software on to your system, you can potentially brick it. And then you need a solid understanding of what's going on.

For most people, computers are black boxes whose internal state is a mystery that is far too complex to be explored. They have no interest in exploring these mysteries. They have work to do; forms to fill, letters to write. And these people need the aforementioned informal support they can turn to whenever they need to diverge from the well-trodden paths. It doesn't depend on the operating system, but on the surrounding support system.

That's why I don't consider that video evidence that Linux isn't ready for prime time, just as I wouldn't consider a video of someone bricking their Windows as evidence that Windows isn't ready for prime time.

These people just need someone they can ask for help. For my family - that me.

⬐ sjcoles

As with most LTT technical content it rubs me the wrong way.

Weird ass hardware = weird ass issues. 99% of these you won't encounter on a more normal desktop or laptop setup. Your average user doesn't have a 1440p monitor next to a damn giant 4k/8k oled TV or use EVERYTHING through thunderbolt.

I really wish they did this on laptops and desktops normal people would use instead of exotic desktops with crazy ass peripherals. Not surprised at all as it makes good content.

⬐ None

None

⬐ ubercow13

Those things don't seem weird at all? Having one new main monitor and a second older monitor with a different resolution that was previously your main monitor? Connecting everything through thunderbolt like every mac user? And anyone who connects some headphones to their laptop now has multiple audio outputs.

I think the video is very reasonable. The monitors didn't work because nouveau is bad and because of uninteresting political/licensing issues with nVidia. The Pop install was bricked because of a packaging mistake on the part of Pop. These are not self-inflicted issues due to obscure hardware.

⬐ simonblack

"I've never ever got my driving licence because of the absolutely paralysing number of choices. How ever do you decide on which car to drive?"

Nobody is forcing anybody which OS to use. If Windows is your choice, go to it. That's great for you.

When it comes to drivers, don't complain about Linux, complain to the hardware vendors instead for their laziness in not supplying suitable drivers for their own hardware.

Most Linux users choose their hardware to suit Linux, not the other way around. Consequently, "It just works".

⬐ 404mm

A warning that this is a LTT video would have been appreciated ;)

⬐ atonalfreerider

With the release of Windows 11, I also thought this would be a good opportunity to change my daily driver to Linux. I'm a Unity developer.

I downloaded the latest Ubuntu release and figured out how to mount it with Rufus on a USB and install it to my PC. The 3rd party drivers actually worked out of the box (GPU, 4k monitor) unlike the last time I tried Ubuntu.

From there on, literally NOTHING worked in my development workflow. Download Unity Hub? Won't let me sign in because of an unattended bug with oauth (with no older builds available). Get Rider and MSBuild off of Applications? It won't compile any code. Even GitKraken (a favorite tool of mine) would instantly crash when I browse to a window.

The amount of pain and frustration escalates to a level 10 very fast every time I try Linux. I heard a quote that there are no bad OSes, just bad developers. I can imagine a world where there are enough users for every category of software where things work out of the box. I'm sadly not seeing this, and am incredibly discouraged.

Using Linux is like buying a car, but upon delivery the car body is placed in your driveway, and the engine and transmission are laid out on your front lawn with the expectation that you can build a car yourself.

⬐ pcvonz

> From there on, literally NOTHING worked in my development workflow.

Sounds like all the hardware worked, but a few proprietary programs didn't? Hard to blame Linux for that.

Unity is terrible on Linux, which is a shame because it's an engine that all my buddies want to use for game jams.

⬐ ehutch79

If you're a unity dev, you kind of need it working.

Those arn't some programs 3 enterprises use in some underfunded department.