HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

They did some great vids with Cliff Stoll, including this one about his Klein Bottles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

No discussion of Klein bottles would be complete without mentioning Cliff Stoll's Acme Klein Bottle company.

https://www.kleinbottle.com/

His warehouse is pretty unique: https://youtu.be/-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ kingcharles

His warehouse is amazing. It's cooler than the Klein bottles. This guy is like a real Doc Brown with too much time on his hands.

⬐ JshWright

I'm pretty sure I say this every time Cliff Stoll is mentioned on HN, but one of my goals in life is to be as excited about something as Cliff is about everything.

⬐ CliffStoll

... naturally, I'm a day late to this note. All the same, it's worth mentioning that I feel like I'm a member of the HN tribe, although it's been many years since I"ve really done much creative hacking. All the same, I deeply appreciate the kindness & joy that HN people pass along. Oh, there are a still few niches where techno-oddballs are appreciated.

Warm wishes, -Cliff

⬐ JshWright

And four days later, the conic loaf of bread video Brady just posted is perhaps the best example yet of the level of excitement that I'm shooting for pretty much anywhere in my life (and you've found it in bread...)

⬐ js2

I ordered a small Klein bottle from him, and the best part wasn't even the bottle I eventually received. It was the emails he sent me as he prepared the shipment, along with photos of him wrapping the bottle, his wife's garden, the bike he rides to the post office. Second best thing was the hand-written note he included thanking me for the order. Third best thing is the bottle itself, but honestly, it's just another knick-knack on my shelf.

⬐ bitexploder

Similar story. Ordered one for my wife. Also recommend watching him on YT (Numberphile).

⬐ willis936

I just bought one and he emailed within an hour and shipped within two. The photos and conversation were lovely. He's a role model.

⬐ gallegojaime

I had the same thought, he cherishes making you laugh and having a good and interactive experience. He has different jokes for every country.

When I received my Klein bottle, along came some papers from ACME with numbers and instructions. The delightful inside baseball cane when he had a field for "number of ingredients in Licor 43"!

⬐ CliffStoll

Yes! I run this zero-volume business for fun ... and the joy of meeting interesting people. So your note brings a broad smile to this tired astronomer's face. Thank yoU!

⬐ 52-6F-62

My god. I like to think there are limits to my more nerdy traits, but how is it this man has planted the seed of wanting to build a miniature warehouse.

Looks like he just has a lot of fun with everything.

⬐ utucuro

Very beautiful, and yet just the idea of what it must have taken to install the lights, floor strips and related extras to that space is borderline claustrophobic...

⬐ onion2k

About a decade ago I wrote a warehouse management system for an ecommerce company so they could have live stock levels on their website (I wrote the ecommerce software it was based on as well). It's all very straightforward until you have to cope with people restocking (putting things back) in the wrong places. Then things go horribly wrong. The lesson is simply that warehouses don't work unless you're really well organised.

I didn't get to build a tiny forklift truck though unfortunately.

⬐ darksaints

As someone who has worked with a lot of WMSes, I'd have to say that that is a domain that is extremely hard to get right.

There is a lot of literature (as well as jokes) in CS about cache invalidation and how hard it is to get right. Well, inventory tracking and warehouse management are actually remarkably similar problems to cache invalidation problems, and you can get all of the same things wrong. But worse. Because unlike cache invalidation, inventory moves via unreliable human processes, has return logistics when you get things wrong (sometimes even when you get things right), and sometimes things just magically disappear.

⬐ pontifier

Oh man... I'm dealing with this headache.

Add in that the whole warehouse had to get packed up and moved while things were in unknown locations, each of the million items is unique and owned by different people (some who want their items right now), and it's all still stuck in the moving containers a year later due to red tape.

This is the nightmare I am trying to figure out how to untangle right now.

⬐ darksaints

That mini warehouse with his home-hacked remote control forklift is amazing. I want to be friends with this man.

⬐ mrandish

Cliff frequently posts here on HN. I know him from the amazing book of how he worked with the FBI to track KGB hackers in the 80s when he noticed an simple accounting error that didn't add up "Cuckoo's Egg".

⬐ athenot

Previously discussed at:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9762331 (2015)

⬐ bellyfullofbac

HN needs a "related" link, this post about Mr. Stoll's basement is surely because someone read the HN headline earlier today about how a Chinese company used an Amazon exploit to hijack his Klein bottle listing, this someone did some more reading about Mr. Stoll, and found this video. If there's an "Other HN stories about Cliff Stoll", there wouldn't be this "repost".

⬐ maxbaines

Cliff Stoll puts Elon Musk to shame.

⬐ agnosticmantis

Genuine question: Do you mean in terms of innovation or marketing?

⬐ vanattab

Integrity, honesty and humility?

⬐ agnosticmantis

Great man indeed. I just didn’t understand the comparison with Elon Musk.

⬐ fencepost

This is a man who's never going to move.

⬐ pontifier

Warehouse goals!

⬐ Cd00d

Crawlspace goals! Mine is disgusting and kinda scary. His is clean, very well lit, and has robot patrols!

⬐ mdwelsh

I bought a Klein Bottle from Cliff Stoll's website after seeing this video. Not only did he immediately pack it up and send it (very carefully packaged!), he sent along photos of the process, some glamor shots of the Klein bottle in his garden, and a (funny) personal note thanking me for the order. His nerdy passion for the Klein bottles is really inspiring.

https://www.kleinbottle.com/

So in 2015 [1] you said you ordered enough bottles for about 10 years, but you're already running out? That's quite the success story you have there!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ CliffStoll

Lopis, you're right. Forward planning has never been my strong suit, and backward planning doesn't seem to work for me. There are some smart people in the world who can predict demand. Not me!

And, about twenty minutes ago, I ran out of large Klein bottles. It'll be September before I can get more, what with shortages of borosilicate glass.

I just want to say: your crawlspace-forklift is beyond awesome.

https://hackaday.com/2015/06/24/crawlspace-warehouse-include...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ CliffStoll

(blush)

It's my way to cheat the chiropractor. Anything to avoid crawling around under my house.

Everything this guy does is hilarious and entertaining. See later talk about this event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h7rLHNXio8

And he drives RC forklift under his house to store Klein bottles he's selling! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

> Earnestness, for example, is pretty far away from my conception of "playful" or "flirty" or even "fun".

Cliff Stoll is the most earnest person I have talked to in the past year, and also one of the most playful and fun. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

I think you have a non-standard personal definition of “earnest”. As I understand the words, earnestness and playfulness are completely orthogonal/unrelated attributes.

⬐ croissants

As mentioned in another comment here, I Googled the definition of "earnest", and it mentions "sincere and intense conviction". My post focuses on sincerity which (perhaps in an extreme form) seems to require honesty and an aversion to misrepresentation. This kind of aversion would seem to make play and humor harder.

Still, the above chain of reasoning is longer and less convincing than I thought it would be.

For example, this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ ljf

The forklift is a 2m10s if you want to skip straight to it.

He is no different in person. Don't miss his warehouse complete with forklift:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ 082349872349872

Many companies put a lot of effort into sales, because they are interested in a family of two-sided paths in the transaction space T, where one half-edge

    d : I -> T

is a continuous function d from the unit interval I = [0,1] to T, representing delivery, and the other half-edge

    p : I* -> T

is a continuous function p from the conjugate unit interval I* = [1,0] to T, representing payment.

Somehow it feels fitting that ACME instead puts a lot of effort into carrying inventory, where the single half-edge, o, representing on-premises inventory, is the identity on T.

⬐ 55555

That mini forklift robot is the cutest thing I've seen in a while!

⬐ CliffStoll

Well, I think he's different in person...

⬐ areoform

If I say... buy a bottle from you would you autograph it for me? You’ve been elevated to the position of rockstar in my little corner of the world. It is only fitting for an autograph to follow. :)

⬐ CliffStoll

I do sign those Kleinbots, although it kinda slows me down (it's hard to write with a sharpie on a compound curve). So order it a few days from now - when I have more free time - and tell me in the order comments.

(at the moment, this Hacker News squib has resulted in a veritable tsunami of Klein bottle orders -- over a dozen -- and I'm getting kinda backlogged. Looks like I'll be working tonight & tomorrow. And it's my turn to wash the dishes tonight...)

⬐ areoform

Oof! That sounds tiring. I’ll hold off on ordering. :)

I have a ton of questions though, is there some way to reach you? (I’ll wait to ask these too!)

⬐ CliffStoll

Sure - I'm Kleinbottle / a/ t' kleinbottle -dawt- com

But again, I"m kinda buried in work right now. And I know way less than you think I do. (at least my wife tells me something like that...)

⬐ jacobush

"One sided, at best"

⬐ Stratoscope

Even better, order it a few days or weeks ago, before it hit HN! Then you will have a story you already told to your friends.

⬐ vermilingua

I wonder if the downvoters realise who they’re downvoting.

⬐ Stratoscope

They never do. And the person they are downvoting is much too polite to point it out!

⬐ ValentineC

Oh, hi! I remember seeing the above video one of the previous times the Klein bottle was submitted here, and telling myself that I definitely need to do an order and pickup the next time I'm in the Bay Area (it's around 8,500 miles from where I'm at).

Hopefully that'll be possible once the pandemic passes!

> Of course, these days, he's the best dang Klein bottle glass blower in the game.

And of course, he hires out the manufacturing. That's why he has (an awesome, little) warehouse under his hour full of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

Cliff is an amazing person. Just a joy! Every time I see him on Numberphile, my life is made better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Stoll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

P.S. Cliff, we know you're on HN. Please continue being yourself, it seems like a really great person to be!

Check out more recent interviews with him. Interesting guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ hindsightbias

Wow. I dont really want to spoil it for anyone, but you REALLY need to watch this video.

Flips work table, opens secret door and...

⬐ tectonic

He's my neighbor. I went over to his house and received this exact experience. It's very practiced and pretty amazing.

To learn about the operation, watch the Numberphile video, “The man with 1,000 Klein Bottles UNDER his house” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ bayareanative

With an inventory robot Amazon would be proud of.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ Ice_cream_suit

Thank you ! That really made my day !

⬐ DavideNL

and "Klein Bottles": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsICMPwGPY

⬐ megaframe

How am I more fascinated by his warehouse robot than the glass bottles.

It's such a great design/implementation.

⬐ StavrosK

It's a great robot! His remote controller seems a bit cobbled together, but you can easily use a $50 RC controller with a $5 receiver and an Arduino to control whatever you want with 16 channels, it's amazing!

⬐ saul_goodman

I'm fairly certain his robot was designed and built before Arduino's existed. The barrier to building robots and electronics has come way down in the past 15 years.

⬐ CliffStoll

Funny you should mention it— I built a line-following system into the forklift, using an Arduino: I put a row of 16 downward pointing leds on the bottom of the chassis; the Arduino sequentially scanned all 16 leds. A photocell detected reflected light from the floor, and fed this into the Arduino’s analog input. In turn, this let the Arduino decide which side of the line it was on, and how much to turn to get back on track.

But odometry proved a bit more challenging, and it turned out to be more reliable (and fun) to simply move it using a RC controller.

⬐ inflatableDodo

>it turned out to be more reliable (and fun) to simply move it using a RC controller.

Perhaps this is a small scale look into the future of the self driving car industry.

It's been implemented to some degree by Cliff Stoll for his klein bottle business. Or rather, he started a warehouse in his crawlspace. Same difference...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

The video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

Numberphile did a video a couple of years ago that featured the forklift in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

Cliff is a really neat guy. I met and talked to him briefly once (at Dayton Hamvention, 20ish years ago). He's a really, really nice guy.

⬐ CliffStoll

K7TA here ... you send me back to those golden days of flea markets and boat anchors. Whew!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

I thought I recognised the name... turns out Cliff is the guy from the Numberphile videos who loves klein bottles. He is such an enjoyment to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ qwertyuiop924

The TV adaptation of the novel, The KGB, The Computer, and Me, will be right up your alley then.

⬐ vmasto

Oh dear I have no idea how and why I just spent 2 hours watching videos about Klein bottles and Mobius strips. Fascinating.

I found the following video about Clifford Stoll (beyond The Cuckoo's Egg) fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ endgame

I loved his book, but this video is great. His enthusiasm makes him really likeable. Having an under-the-house forklift robot is so damn cool!

You should also watch the related video about how he stores Klein bottles under his house. It's fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU

⬐ noonespecial

His tiny robotic warehouse in the crawlspace of his house is the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.

Pure distilled mad science. He's like a living cartoon. I want to be him when I get old so very much!

⬐ jacquesm

Absolute genius. Bits & pieces from the junkyard and old drills cobbled together to make a miniature forklift. Lovely!

⬐ cben

My immediate thought was "here is the real Doc Brown (from BTTF)". Well, the hair is obvious, but it's really the enthusiasm and "come Marty, let me show you this robot I built to make breakfast!" vibe. It's what gives "mad science" a good name, in purest form.

⬐ segmondy

He is a true "hacker", I was very impressed with his robot made from various junk parts

⬐ slyall

Cliff Stoll in case people were wondering:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Stoll

I have his original book my shelf, it was fascinating when it came out.

His Klein Bottle company is here:

http://www.kleinbottle.com/

⬐ jpalomaki

He has also written Cuckoo's Egg, a book about his hunt for hacker that broke into computer at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo%27s_Egg

This was really fascinating read for a young nerd around very early 1990's.

⬐ 0xdeadbeefbabe

The voice in that book seems different from the voice in the video, but what do I know :). Cliff turned me on to the "peoples republic of berkley" Does anyone call it that anymore?

⬐ nroets

It was the first time I heard of GNU software. For the next 3 years, my only perception was that it was insecure.

⬐ stephendicato

It's still a great read today. This HN post led me to hand my copy to one of summer hires. I've certainly passed that copy around.

⬐ joshdance

No way! I read that book in Junior High. Very well written, and very enjoyable. Didn't realize this was the same guy! Love it.

⬐ jobu

Can't believe I hadn't heard of that before. That's an amazing story!

⬐ chii

ahh, no wonder that name sounded so familiar!

⬐ astrodust

This book basically taught me UNIX. I'm not even kidding.

⬐ Roritharr

The Copy on Kleinbottle.com is marvelous, its like pouring hot cocoa spiced with love:

From http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm :

"The 7 mm air space separates the inside from the outside, so ice water won't cause condensation. This extends the life of hot or cold drinks, saves energy, and helps stave off the dreaded local thermodynamic equilibrium."

But seriously just read the whole page, this is like a bear hug from a friend I didn't knew I had.

⬐ craigching

  But seriously just read the whole page, this is like a
  bear hug from a friend I didn't knew I had.

That made me laugh, thanks for that :)

⬐ ganeumann

"We strongly recommend that you do not attempt to evade the Pauli Exclusion Principle."

⬐ Sealy

I would be curious to know what would happen if you put a carbonated/soda drink in it.

⬐ OscarCunningham

Nothing special, as it turns out.

⬐ david-given

You can't --- it has no inside.

You could probably put a carbonated drink on it, though...

⬐ dec0dedab0de

You can't --- it has no inside.

yes it does, you just pour in/out from the bottom.

⬐ ziggit

You can't --- it has no inside.

That's basically the whole novelty of a Klein Bottle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle

⬐ dec0dedab0de

Maybe I'm being thick, but they clearly have an inside. Your link does not mention anything about not having an inside.

⬐ DanBC

Does a möbius strip have an inside or outside? The klein bottle is similar. The inside is the outside.

⬐ dec0dedab0de

I think maybe it's just semantics. I seem to be incorrectly assuming that the inside of the bottle is the space where the liquid goes. And the inside of the möbius strip would be the gap where you put your neck if you were to wear it as a necklace.

Would it be more correct to say that there is no inside surface? And it was just a pun that went over my head?

⬐ dazmax

It's a joke. It has an inside as much as any bottle does, but the only point of a Klein Bottle is the topological form so they're using topological language to talk about it.

⬐ dec0dedab0de

If you see my reply to the sibling I figured it out. However, thanks for confirming.

⬐ pbhjpbhj

I thought it had no outside ;0)

⬐ Nadya

>WARNING! Acme constructs each Klein Bottle from genuine Baryonic matter. Do not allow your Acme Klein Bottle to come in contact with antimatter or unpredictable results may occur. Acme cannot guarantee the dimensionality of the result.

Reading any page is a joy.

⬐ dexen

He's on HN, too: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=CliffStoll

[edit]

As my friends (online and off) can attest, I make Klein bottles mainly for fun. It's a zero-volume home business, small enough to be run from one room; the warehouse occupies the crawlspace under our house.

Of course, the best part of Acme Klein Bottles is meeting people: via email, occasional visits, talks at schools & math colloquia, and chattering about physics & LTE & coding with friends at my day-job (Hi Newfield People!). Which is to say, it'll be a while before I recast my kleinbottle website - I'm having too much fun doing other things. -- from an earlier post

⬐ zem

hah, "zero-volume" :)

⬐ DanBC

It makes me sad, and is probably a failure of HN, that people like Stoll only have 7 karma and don't post here.

⬐ sp332

I was almost disappointed to learn that this was Cliff Stoll. I keep hoping there are other people out there who are that weird and awesome.

⬐ tragomaskhalos

Oh my god the Cuckoo's Egg guy! That is a crazy book. Would never have connected them, but then again clearly this is someone who doesn't let go once he gets an idea between his teeth.

⬐ jpalomaki

It was interesting to read the Cyberpunk by John Markoff after the Cockoo's egg, because this book covered the same case from the crackers point of view.

⬐ eco

Wow. Thank you. I didn't make the connection until you wrote that. I really should reread The Cuckoo's Egg.

⬐ esquivalience

He writes well. Check out the guarantees section (http://www.kleinbottle.com/guarantee.htm):

We unconditionally guarantee your Acme Klein Bottle to be free of any defects in workmanship or workwomanship for a period of ONE YEAR following purchase. If you aren't satisfied with your Acme Klein Bottle -- for any reason -- just return it for a refund or replacement. You pick up shipping charges. We guarantee safe arrival. If your Klein Bottle arrives broken, call or send email and we will immediately send a replacement. We slightly guarantee your Klein Bottle for THREE MONTHS against any cracks or breakage, whether due to earthquakes, clumsy undergrads, or greasy fingers. Just mail us a fragment and $10, and we will send a replacement. We warrant each Acme Klein Bottle for a period of FIVE YEARS to be absolutely free of any magnetic monopoles. If you discover one, contact us immediately and we will refund your purchase price right after you receive the Nobel Prize. Furthermore, we guarantee for TEN YEARS that any polyhedron spanning your unbroken Acme Klein Bottle will have about as many edges as the sum of its vertices plus faces. We further warrant for ONE MILLION YEARS that within a Euclidean plane, the square of a right triangle's hypotenuse will equal the sum of the squares of the two remaining legs.

⬐ delinka

"Guarantee void if a substantial portion of the Klein bottle leaks into the 4th dimension."

And he's funny. Mostly. ;-)

⬐ samtimalsina

The big print giveth and the small print taketh away.

⬐ fennecfoxen

oblig. Tom Waits allusion deserves the full song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_snSkpULQ and lyrics: http://www.tomwaits.com/songs/song/322/Step_Right_Up/

⬐ pbhjpbhj

>We further warrant for ONE MILLION YEARS that within a Euclidean plane, the square of a right triangle's hypotenuse will equal the sum of the squares of the two remaining legs. //

Can't you break this with Lorentz contraction; it seems that would be equivalent to non-Euclidean geometry but legally within the terms. It's all about frames of reference I imagine. Though my inclination is that it might hinge on the meaning of "within" used.

⬐ acron0

This is incredible. I LOVE stuff like this. It makes me so happy that people like this still exist in the world. I say 'still' because I feel like they're a dying breed. The rationale behind everything he's done is laid bare and it makes sense! People like this don't ever let a detail like "I have no idea how to achieve this" stand in their way. Everything is a challenge or problem that needs solving.

⬐ craigching

Ok, never heard of klein bottles before, watched the video and I learned about something new today. Awesome robot and storage area as well :)

But, aside from that, when I went to youtube to watch the video, the ad I had to watch was this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYhdbxj-yoI

First time I watched a youtube ad all the way through :p

⬐ joshstrange

That is great! There were 2-3 that auto-played after it (only like 15 sec each) that were also good. Just sent these around to the team (over hipchat of course).

⬐ kristofferR

Who the fk geo-restricts an ad?

⬐ vijayr

Advertisers? They have to pay for the ads, why would they want someone who is not from their target market watching the ads?

⬐ kristofferR

I'm pretty sure they only have to pay for the ad views (pre-roll etc), not regular video views of the commercial.

⬐ merb

This one made me laugh :D

⬐ BillFranklin

It's also here: https://vimeo.com/121287413

⬐ jay-saint

Check out his job postings for his Acme Klein Bottle company http://www.kleinbottle.com/jobs.html

My favorite: PENTIUM PROCESSOR. Must know all pentium processes, including preprocessing, postprocessing, and past-pluperfect processing. Ideal candidate pent up at the Pentagon, penthouse, or penitentiary. Pays pennies. Penurious benefits include Pension, Pencil. Pentel, Pentax, and Pentaflex. Write to [email protected]

⬐ devinmontgomery

This NOVA episode with Cliff is what got me interested in the Internet when I was 8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac

⬐ picardo

Ironic because he was also one of the earliest critics of the Internet.

http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2010/02/27/newsweek-1995-bu...

⬐ bambax

Real life Gyro Gearloose!!!

In the next video he talks about how a Klein bottle is made, and how, contrary to a bottle, it has no edge.

I'm not sure I understand why a bottle "has to" have an edge? Surely it's possible to make a bottle with no edge? For example, if one takes a sphere and progressively turns it into a bowl (by punching into it), and then makes the bowl deeper, it still has just one surface and no edge, no?

⬐ DanBC

Run your finger around a möbius strip. Your finger touches all parts of the surface without travelling over an "edge". You can do the same with the klein bottle.

Can you do the same with your sphere/donut/bowl?

⬐ raldi

I could paint the inside of your surface red and the outside blue (where by "inside" I mean the part you've trapped air in). That's not the case with Cliff's bottles.

⬐ maxerickson

If you stick a cork in the bottom, his bottles have an inside and an outside.

The abstract object doesn't, the 3d manifestation of it does.

⬐ HCIdivision17

I had to think about what that meant for a moment, as it's sort of part of the weirdness of the bottle. Really, putting a cork in it is probably closer to putting a lid on a bowl, no?

It's just sealing the local minimum. (Maximum? I don't really know what the sign should be for this. Probably maximum, for enclosed volume, since I'm not sure if it's reasonable to talk about the topology having a minimum in this context...)

⬐ maxerickson

If I needed to close one, I'd stick a cork in the hole in the bottom. So I think that is a reasonable way to describe closing it.

I don't think I can reason clearly about the 4 dimensional object, part of pointing out that a 3d manifestation does not have the same properties is me trying to do that.

⬐ peterfirefly

"The Shape of Space" is a great "topology for dummies" book. Highly recommended.

http://www.amazon.com/Shape-Space-Chapman-Applied-Mathematic...

⬐ TobbenTM

If you make this bowl, it will have two surfaces, with no way to get from one side to the other.

⬐ bambax

Well, I'm not sure about that. The top of my bowl is the top-half of a doughnut if you will: it really does not seem to have an edge. At what point does an "edge" appear?

⬐ chii

the object that have only one surface, but no edge, is a klein bottle. A sphere (or if you will, a ball pressed into a bowl shape) has two surfaces - the outer one, and the "inner" one (where the "inner one" is the one you cannot reach from the outer one, as tho the surface is infinitely thin, and the bowl/sphere is made of hollowness.

⬐ glomph

It has an inner surface and an outer surface, the same as a sphere. They didn't say it had an edge.

⬐ bambax

Yes, in the video I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsICMPwGPY

he says that a bootle has an edge (~3'40).

A sphere does not have an "inner surface", it has just one surface. So does a potato. If you go from sphere to potato to bowl, when does an edge appear and does it have to appear, is my question.

⬐ geon

Well. A bottle is topologically equivalent to a solid sphere. It only has one surface.

The inside and outside of a bottle is just by convention. Usually you would say something is inside the bottle if it is past the opening. (As he says in the video.)

So your example with the bowl-shaped "sphere" is correct. There's no clear limit when a bottle has an inside and an outside.

⬐ peterfirefly

But you do have two surfaces: inside and outside. The Klein bottle only has one.

⬐ talideon

The rim of your bowl is the edge: it's a point where the curvature changes suddenly. But that's not the important thing: the important thing is that not only is there only no edge, but only one surface.

Let's talk topology for a bit.

A manifold can be thought of as essentially a flat and infinitely thin sheet. If you have a spherical manifold (and your bowl would be a spherical manifold), it has two surfaces: one on the inside and another on the outside. Deforming the manifold doesn't change this.

The thing about a Klein bottle (and a Moebius strip) is that it only has one continuous surface, the difference between a Moebius strip and a Klein bottle is that the latter is a single surface with no edge whereas the former is a single surface with one edge, unlike the sphere (or your bowl), which has two surfaces and no edge.

So what's important here is the number of sides it has, not really that it has no edge. The lack of an edge is really only what separates a Moebius strip from Klein bottle.

⬐ bambax

But with an ordinary bottle, the edge is the point (if I may), because if a bottle had no edge, couldn't it be said that has just one ordinary surface?

So in fact, what I understand so far is:

- a (hollow) sphere has two surfaces, one inside and one outside, and you can't connect one to the other (you can't walk from one to the other)

- a potato, or a bowl also have the same properties: two distinct surfaces

- a bottle is not a special kind of bowl, it's more of a broken sphere (an egg the top of which has been removed) so that both surfaces (in and out) are accessible (but disjoint)

- to make a true bottle out of a bowl one needs to somehow "collapse" the inner and outer surfaces (therefore creating an edge)

- if you make a bottle that has a hollow space between the inside and the outside (think Thermos), then you actually have three surfaces

Is this correct?

⬐ escherplex

Yeah but last time I heard, a Klein bottle being only a one sided surface can only be rendered in 4D space with the 'passing through' funnel not breaking or intersecting the curved surface and this can't be rendered in 3D space. Unless recently they've decided to relax that restriction. Nice model though and worth getting but I wonder how best to mount it in a display case.

⬐ talideon

Yeah, the 3D klein bottle is to a real 4D klein bottle what a circle is to a sphere.

⬐ escherplex

IE, cross-sections or projections. Would be interesting if there were a way to render a Klein bottle using techniques similar to those used when 'impossible triangles' are modeled with boards and 2x4s in fields which then seem to work when viewed from a certain angle. But then what would non-intersecting intersecting lines look like. Sounds like double-think.

⬐ talideon

I think the confusion here is that you're taking what he's saying in terms other than those of topology.

In topology, you deal with manifolds. Manifolds have no thickness, but they do have area.

In topology, there's no such thing as a 'filled' sphere: a sphere in topology has no edges and an inside surface and an outside surface, much like a football.

There are two ways you can make a 'bottle': you can deform a sphere, which gives you a 'bottle' much like a vaccuum flask; or you can deform a planar manifold (which is like a sheet of paper). The former will have two surfaces and no edge, whereas the latter will have two surfaces and one edge, that being the rim.

A broken sphere would be a planar manifold.

A vaccuum flask is simply a deformed sphere in topological terms, and thus only has two surfaces, the inside and the outside.

⬐ bambax

Much helpful, thanks!!

⬐ talideon

One quick clarifying note: the reason he said in the video that bottles have an edge is because he was treating it as a planar manifold.

Topology is an interesting area of study.

⬐ david-given

...a topologist is someone who can't figure out whether to dip their doughnut into their coffee mug or vice versa.

⬐ dwarman

I do like Cliff. This reminds me, I dropped my bottle last year; time to replace it.

If Klein bottles catch your fanvcy, there's another and very different artist doing metal and glass algorithmic artwork in 3D printers: Bathsheba (at http://bathsheba.com). I had Cliff's bottle sitting on top of her laser etched known universe cube at work. Each contains the other. Too bad nobody there gets the joke. But I saw the same combo in a documentary about String Theory, in one of the scientists' office, so I'm not alone :)

⬐ DanBC

The klein bottles are awesome, but they are the least awesome thing about his under-floor space. That was amazing.

⬐ shabble

I confess that my first hope was that it was some kind of klein-bottle glassblowing robot bodged togetehr out of bits of scrap wood and insulated with glass-fibre.

The reality was almost as good though, it's a cute little forklift-bot, and appears to work really well for his use (although I suspect if he started stacking boxes on top of each other it would get a lot harder).

So, who's going to kickstart Kiva for your attic/crawlspace? :)

⬐ hrayr

I love this guy, I first saw him in his TED talk [1]. He kinda reminds me of Richard Feynman (similar mannerisms and enthusiasm for science).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk

⬐ tempodox

I got one of those Klein bottles from him, and it's really beautifully done. If you are careful, you can even store some liquid or other stuff in it. I wonder if the mathematical original could do that, too.

⬐ thret

I suppose I am compelled to get one too. Not that I want one, it's just that I already have his books - and methinks he deserves a little extra money for this video.

⬐ tempodox

It's hard for me to resist “math you can touch” :) And although it's “only” in 3 dimensions, the sheer craftsmanship is a feat in itself.

⬐ dwarman

AFAIK, Chris is the only person to have blown a Klein bottle. I don't think the mass produced version is hand-blown like his original. Maybe there are a few shy chemistry equipment blowers, but not many if so.

⬐ raldi

You're not really storing the liquid in it; you're storing the liquid on it.

⬐ daxelrod

You're storing the liquid, and the rest of the universe, in it.

⬐ JoeAltmaier

True of an ordinary bottle too, which is topographically the same as a plate.

⬐ e0m

Definitely subscribe to Numberphile if you thought that was interesting. One of my favorite YouTube channels.

⬐ nedwin

"Acme Klein Bottles - where yesterday's future is here today!" http://www.kleinbottle.com/

⬐ MagnumCI

I went to a talk from Stoll years ago where he basically danced on tables, his enthusiasm is contagious.

I've always been amused by his 'Internet commerce will never work, give up' essay

http://www.newsweek.com/clifford-stoll-why-web-wont-be-nirva...

⬐ amdolan

Good read, as an aside I found this to be somewhat funny :) from your link: http://imgur.com/dTdp2g7

⬐ zafka

Well, I just bought mine! It warms my heart to contribute to such a great life style. I aspire to a similar future myself.

⬐ dmd

Wow, synchronicity -- I just received a klein bottle order in the mail from him YESTERDAY.

⬐ shocks

Did he send you a personal photo gallery too?!

I love my KB. :D

⬐ dmd

He sure did! I sent him one back of my family, and also of me as a teenager reading The Cuckoo's Egg in 1990 or so.

⬐ chii

> Now with a LIFETIME GUARANTEE - we guarantee that you will live your entire life OR YOUR MONEY BACK!

ROFL - that site is awesome. You don't need no fancy javascript, graphics or special effects. Just pure humor and good content!

⬐ graffitici

Perfect model for Amazon's new distribution system! Transform people's basements into small warehouses, complete with autonomous robots. Then ship everything locally, as they are needed!

⬐ mattyohe

Clifford's TED talk is quite entertaining too: https://youtu.be/dSGHZ4YHP54

⬐ squinn2

& more Cliff, somewhat younger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac

⬐ ykl

Here's a link to the actual TED talk, since mattyohe's link is actually to one of Google's promo videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk

⬐ kazinator

Jim Croce should have written the lyrics "If I could save time in Klein's bottle ...":

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jimcroce/timeinabottle.html

Eternity ... looping. Doh!

⬐ Shivetya

I see that little robot and I get images of the little guy from Silent Running tending his plants

⬐ harel

What would be a practical use for such a feat of inter dimension glass containerism?

⬐ talideon

You could truthfully say that your klein beer glass was always empty, no matter how much you put in it. :-)

⬐ hedgew

Its practical uses are both guaranteed and finite!

>You can convert your Acme Klein Bottle into an astonishing amount of energy, over 1023 ergs! Enough to power a small city for years. To get you started, we'll supply the necessary equation for free.

>At any time -- day or night -- you can easily check on the Euler Characteristic of your Acme Klein Bottle. Just add the number of vertices to the number of faces, then subtract the number of edges. So simple, even a grad student can do it!

http://www.kleinbottle.com/why_acme.htm

⬐ naggie

He sounds like the scientist from X-COM: Enforcer! Random gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0Z8Fv31l0

⬐ konradb

I bought one of these a few years ago and was touched by the personal note written in it. I hadn't realised until now that it was Clifford Stoll who actually sent these! Fascinating video.

⬐ a_c

I just bought one too. It is so heart warming seeing his personal note.

⬐ _b8r0

Clifford Stoll is always a fascinating character to watch.

⬐ wodenokoto

I want a reality show about this guy, this is amazing!

⬐ DanBC

I'd watch a well made documentary. I'd probably help kickstart one.

⬐ hakcermani

The clicking noises from that robot, its brilliant !

⬐ Morendil

I own one of those. They're rad.

⬐ onion2k

He is awesome.

⬐ guard-of-terra

Is it glass wool hanging down from his underfloor ceiling in insane qualities?

I was raised to believe it's extremely dangerous to health, people crawling there scare me. Of course it's easier with forklift.

⬐ mxfh

That was asbestos, glass wool is reasonably safe to be around.

⬐ anotheryou

jup, just don't handling it sucks (it gets everywhere and itches if it penetrates your skin. construction workers often don't seem to give much of a * though...)

⬐ burger_moon

I used to work with ceramic wool and in big letters on the box it says that it's known to be a possible carcinogen. Not only does it kill you slowly, it hurts more than itches unlike regular insulation. The fibers are longer and sharper and really sting and take a few freezing cold showers to really get it out of your skin. I certainly don't miss those days :)

⬐ DanBC

It's very commonly used in insulation in the UK.

Are you sure people were being honest with you? Or were they trying to stop an inquisitive young person from grabbing a handfull of it?

⬐ spainispain

And what does Naomi has to say about this?

⬐ DrScump

a warning: the volume on this is REALLY. LOUD.

⬐ EvanAnderson

Cliff Stoll's enthusiasm warrants REALLY. LOUD.

Cliff seems like a genuinely great guy.

⬐ el_benhameen

I went to Cliff's house a few years back to buy one of his bottles as a gift for my dad. He was just as effusive, welcoming, and excited for one visitor he'd never met as he was in the video.

I thought I was just swinging by to pick up the bottle and pay the check, but I ended up staying for about 45 minutes (because he just kept going!), chatting about the crawlspace, the robot, and life in general. He talked about eschewing a big career so that he and his wife could focus on making life great for their kids. And it certainly seemed to have paid off for both kids and dad: I've never met anyone who seemed to be having so damned much fun just existing. It was refreshing to see that it's totally possible to be driven almost entirely by intrinsic factors and still exist in the real world. He left an impression as being an all-around fantastic human being. The bottle was pretty cool, too.

⬐ 0xdeadbeefbabe

Well how are his kids?

Edit: Seriously, he seems like a fun parent.

⬐ el_benhameen

He was wild about them, and given how creative and dedicated this fellow seemed, I'm sure they're geniuses. I didn't meet them, though, so I can't really say much more than that.