HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ bazzargh

A bit more info - the tech behind this is a 2d variation on the Pepper's Ghost illusion ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper%27s_ghost ), apparently licensed from Musion (http://www.musion.co.uk/). It's had previous outings - animators at Square Zero have used it several times, including to recreate Frank Sinatra. http://www.squarezero.co.uk/what-we-do/holograms

It's interesting to see their videos from 2010, which are still quite realistic but look stilted compared to the Tupac projection.

And obviously these aren't really holograms. I'm not connected to this in any way, just looked it up earlier since none of the articles mentioned what was driving this.

⬐ nothis

Yea, the media always tries to headline this as a "hologram", when in fact it's just a 2D projection. Actually, just a glass with enough darkness behind it act as a mirror.

I'm sure there is a lot of know-how in what screen to use, to make the projection bright enough, etc, etc. But that's more fiddling around than revolutionary technology.

⬐ joejohnson

Coachella has done a lot of innovative tricks this year. I was impressed that anyone in US could watch three of the stages live on YouTube. Live concert footage and other live videos on the web are going to quickly make TV feel overpriced.

⬐ pinaceae

even more impressive that I could watch it from Austria - by now so much content is region-restricted that this was a pleasant surprise.

⬐ minikomi

I watched (the rapture) from a train in Japan on my iPhone while heading to a hot spring!

⬐ kittxkat

I was so pleasantly surprised I could watch with no problems from Switzerland.

⬐ te_chris

Agree so much from New Zealand, me and heaps of my friends were all massive fans of At the Drive In when they were around, being able to see them live on the other side of the world felt pretty cool.

⬐ apawloski

For what it's worth, this isn't the first year Coachella was live streamed on YouTube.

⬐ sneakyness

They did this last year too and it's awesome. If you didn't notice it's also in 5.1

⬐ libraryatnight

Having been to a few festivals over the years, I had a good time watching via the YouTube stream. No sweaty people crowding me, up-close views, fantastic sound quality, and all the beverages etc I wanted readily available with no lines ;)

Obviously nothing replaces the experience of being present, but if you can't go, or are just getting to a point in life where festivals seem like more exhaustion than they're worth, these live streams are amazing.

⬐ matt312

I wonder if Jobs will introduce a new Apple product in 20 years.

⬐ rglover

Love the technology, but is anybody else just a little bit creeped out by this?

⬐ jgw

Yes, and not just a little.

Our ability to distinguish between what's real and what's not is diminishing at an astonishing rate.

Simultaneously, our technology is grossly outpacing our ability as a society to develop social mores and appropriate legal frameworks around the new things we can do.

Some years ago, I read an article about how when the telephone was first publicly sold, it came with an etiquette guide on how to use it appropriately and with consideration for others. That seems like a fantastic idea - would that we had done the same with cell phones fifteen years ago, let alone how we use incredibly powerful technologies today.

⬐ rome

I don't think that law needs to get involved too early (if at all) in tech innovations. I do think society will determine whats correct and whats not. If a dispute arises then courts and lawmakers should be involved.

⬐ tmarthal

You're absolutely right. I was in the audience last night and was unable to 100% distinguish with my own eyes that the performer on stage was not real. I think a lot of people are just watching the re-hash of the high-definition feed with closeups, where you can see some of the pixelation and movement/animation aliasing. However at 400+ft and non-direct lighting, the effect was nothing short of creepy.

⬐ joering2

A little bit?? there better be a good way for forensics to determine it wasnt you on that "CCTV recording" anonymouslyt delivered by "friend" of someone being murdered in a dark street.

⬐ huxley

It lead me to wonder whether its use will be exclusively limited to dead performers. I can imagine there being some interest in concerts by 1960s era Bob Dylan or say the Stones in 1967-69 being re-enacted.

I'm sure purists might be dismayed but plenty of people watch doumentaries like "Don't Look Back" or "Stones in Exile" to experience a bit of that period.

⬐ AsylumWarden

Imagine how those who were stumbling drunk felt! No wait, think about the poor people who were high when this popped up! Talk about a bad trip man!

⬐ loverobots

I was. I wonder if they need permission from his mom (estate) for this.

⬐ jgrahamc

I'm less creeped out by the technology than by the implications in terms of copyright. What this may mean is that a copyright holder on the image of a person (such as Tupac) will be able to milk that image long after they are dead and potentially without having to pay anyone.

When you see Snoop Dogg 'performing' with Tupac you have to wonder where the money is flowing. Tupac's gone, perhaps his family is getting some pay back from the fact that an old recording of a song is played publicly. But what happens when Tupac suddenly records a new song? Would not surprise me to discover that the record companies are able to claim that they deserve all the money associated with that.

⬐ nextstep

Plenty of albums have been released under Tupac's name since he died. Some of the work (the production, the lyrics, obviously the vocals) was material that Tupac had worked on but never released.

According to wikipedia, Suge Knight produced most of these posthumous albums[1]. I assume the royalty split was probably the usual percentages going to the label and distribution, and a much smaller fraction going to Tupac (or his estate in this case). So, all in all, probably no worse of a deal than most living artists can expect from major label contracts.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur_discography

⬐ enjalot

It makes me wonder how Snoop must feel, having performed that same song many times with Pac before...

⬐ danssig

Probably made him feel rich.

⬐ furyofantares

> But what happens when Tupac suddenly records a new song?

Somebody has to actually create that work and the performance -- presumably whoever does the work or commissions the work would inform themselves of any licensing issues before embarking on it.

I'm curious what you think the ideal scenario here would be?

⬐ parkan

Rebuilding speech/song based on existing phoneme library (i.e. the discography) is already practical and, like everything else in this domain, has been done long ago in japan: http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/12/ueki-loid-speech-synt...

See also Hatsune Miku/Vocaloid, which is a fully artificial pop star that's been selling out shows (as a hologram since 2009)

⬐ cheebla

I'm not sure if this is what you're suggesting, but I can't imagine we will ever see someone producing entirely new Tupac songs based on his phoneme library.

It would be in such bad taste that even the American recording industry wouldn't go near it. People already get upset that they use old entire recordings to produce new songs, and those are actually his lyrics and his voice.

⬐ anigbrowl

It would be in such bad taste that even the American recording industry wouldn't go near it.

Oh, I'd take that bet. I would even bet that the producers will claim to have been in touch with his spirit.

⬐ njharman

> bad taste that even the American recording industry wouldn't go near it

What in hell makes you believes the recording industry has good taste?

⬐ parkan

To paraphrase the well-known maxim, you can never go broke underestimating the good taste of the american public (over a long enough timeframe). The IP status of the voice is a really fascinating question though, given how complex the current songwriting/master/recording breakdown is already.

⬐ derleth

> you can never go broke underestimating the good taste of the american public

Is bear-baiting coming back, then?

⬐ Aramgutang

On a much smaller scale, this has already been done. Tupac's posthumous "Loyal to the Game" album produced by Eminem had a number of lyrical phrases constructed out of phonemes.

There was a small amount of outrage at the time of its release, but it mostly focused on the fact that those constructed lyrics were endorsing other rappers (mostly Eminem's protégés also performing on the track), whom some fans felt Tupac would not have endorsed had he been alive.

⬐ cheebla

Definitely, but I think it is a question of scale.

It's one thing to construct some ad-libs, but to actually create a piece of art (i.e. an entire verse) is a whole different ball game. It would be like if someone took fragments of Picasso paintings, constructed an entirely new painting, and called it a Picasso.

I suppose it's conceivable that someone might try to do it, and it's apparently technically possible, but I think it would be roundly rejected.

⬐ parkan

There are some interesting painting remix projects, by the way: http://www.studiovoltaire.org/edition-arcangel.htm

⬐ endtime

Sounds like you're creeped out by copyright in general, not by anything to do with this article.

⬐ jgrahamc

That's not true. I rely on copyright as the foundation for lots of things (the code I write in my job and it underlies the OSS licenses that I use for code that I release freely). Copyright itself does not worry me.

But there are concerning moves to make copyright last essentially indefinitely and in the UK we've recently seen the Olympics be backed up by criminal rather than civil penalties for copyright-related offenses. Those things are worrying.

It is true that there's nothing in the original article about copyright or finance, but it is worth considering in the light of the fact that it's unlikely that the event or the other performers did this out of the goodness of their hearts. Follow the money.

⬐ endtime

Okay, but none of that is specific to this technology or its use at a concert. You just seem to be taking the opportunity to talk about something vaguely related that you have strong feelings about.

⬐ rex_mundi

Because discussion of copyright woes related to emerging public technology is obviously a bad thing.

⬐ ewillbefull

This is Hacker News, not Hologram News; we don't have to deliberately avoid a discussion about these relevant issues because it will upset copyright maximalists.

⬐ DanBC

> in the UK we've recently seen the Olympics be backed up by criminal rather than civil penalties for copyright-related offenses.

Copyright infringement as part of trade has always been a criminal, not civil, matter in the UK.

⬐ enjalot

It makes me wonder how Snoop must feel, having performed that same song many times with Pac before...

⬐ sbov

The hologram is extra creepy, but is it legally any different than a commercial or picture? By now I'm sure contracts already had clauses about what happens in the event of someone's death, and whether or not they're allowed to use the person's likeness.

⬐ cheebla

I'm confused as to how they got him to say "Coachella". Had he performed there in his lifetime or did they have to create that word from old voice recordings?

⬐ shinratdr

I'm pretty sure with enough voice data you can make people say just about anything, and Tupac left behind a ton of voice data.

⬐ None

None

⬐ JonnieCache

Yep. See the work of cassetteboy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m2pFYYEiko (NSFW language)

All they use is soundforge, and it's trivial. You can achieve perfect results with modern software and algorithmic assistance.

⬐ gpmcadam

Wouldn't it be easier to just hire a voice actor or impersonator?

⬐ shinratdr

It would be easier to just sit at home and listen to an old Tupac album also.

⬐ ux_designer

They did use a voice impersonator.

⬐ murki

source?

⬐ subb

I'm going to guess something like C - (r)oach - (f)ella.

⬐ ryangilbert

He died three years before the first Coachella. So no, he had never performed there.

⬐ None

None

⬐ tynan

Here are details on how they reproduced Sinatra, which is probably similar to how they reproduced Tupac:

http://www.damonchernavsky.com/News_Archive/October_2009/Hol...

⬐ weslly

Now we just wait for someone announcing his own version of Tupac made with HTML5 & WebGL.

⬐ glen

William Gibson - Idoru

http://www.amazon.com/Idoru-William-Gibson/dp/0425190455

⬐ vizzah

Was that video image mixed&cut from the videos of his previous performances? Or was it computer generated?

⬐ zalew

the [video]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULrFtjaixbY

⬐ zdgman

Great question that was asked today was, "would you pay to see a dead artist perform in holographic form"?

Think about all the artists you could bring back and have perform for people when using this technology.

⬐ lo_fye

With the exception of Gorillaz, I probably wouldn't pay to see A holographic artist perform, but I would pay to see a bunch of them perform together. Elvis, Buddy Holly, Tupac, Ricky Valenz, Kurt Cobain, etc. Get DJ BC to create the mashup, and away we go.

⬐ jQueryIsAwesome

I think a Sci-Fi "theater" would be nice too, just imagine all the things from The Matrix happening in real time in front of you (that is, just a believable 3D without glasses).

⬐ blhack

Yes.

Honestly, I'm not at a show to watch somebody perform their music, I'm there to enjoy that music with a few hundred/thousand other people, and listen to it on a big stereo.

It's a socializing thing, not a consumption thing.

⬐ zdgman

I think most people are in the same boat with you. When you are young you tend to push close up to the stage or jump into the thick of things, maybe because you like mosh pits.

When you get older it's all about going to hear how well the band performs live and enjoy a tasty adult beverage. Most entertainment venues I visit now I end up standing toward the back.

⬐ jonursenbach

Anyone know what kind of technology they used to do this? I haven't been able to track information about it down.

⬐ ryandmonk

Musion Eyeliner (http://www.eyeliner3d.com/)

⬐ yosh

Probably Musion Eyeliner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musion_Eyeliner

⬐ bazzargh

Definitely. Musion were tweeting about it earlier.

⬐ rollypolly

Very impressive technology! I just wish there was a better name for it.

Any suggestions?

⬐ treme

so what's the law on profitting off someone's avatar like this?

⬐ rooshdi

Was wondering that too; only thing I found was this: http://www.vh1.com/music/tuner/2012-04-17/whos-getting-paid-...

It says Dre got Afeni's blessing and made a contribution to Tupac's foundation for his image rights, but I now wonder if this gives him and Aftermath Entertainment unrestricted rights to capitalize off Tupac's hologram in all future concerts.

⬐ patrickgzill

So after this is perfected, you could grab my image, make it look like I was the person who held up a bank and shot a hostage, and all the eyewitnesses would say it was me, and could give a positive ID? What would hidden security cameras show?

⬐ StavrosK

They would probably show a crew of tens of people installing a mirror system, cameras, sound, etc etc in the bank, and then a half-translucent image of you (maybe) coming in and awkwardly robbing it, if the tellers were in on it and had rehearsed beforehand so the recording of you could look in sync with their actions. Also, they couldn't hand you any objects.

It'd be easier for someone with a balaclava to rob the bank and plant the money in your house before an "anonymous tip", really.

⬐ patrickgzill

That is today's version. 20 years ago the equivalent of an iPad 3 was $400,000 dollars and consumed 3 kilowatts continuously.

⬐ None

None

⬐ zennit

Great effect but how did they get the footage of pac so clean? is it a 3d model?

⬐ philmcc

My understanding is that the team at Digital Domain (pirates of the caribbean, Jeff Bridges in Tron) modeled the body, and then used mo-cap on an actor who did the "performance".

⬐ alexlitov

Tupac not Tupcac!

⬐ cjpartridge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ5hK-D8kRQ&feature=relat...

⬐ jmboling

http://cl.ly/3P3M3p3l1w002n220o1i

⬐ liftup

unreal. Not everyone might like Pac but amazing how real it looks.

⬐ renegadedev

This should be titled "The Rapping Dead"

⬐ iamgopal

somebody should get linus to perform live. I will buy the tickets.

⬐ None

None

⬐ zavulon

Next step: use it on someone good, like John Lennon or Jimi Hendrix

⬐ phwd

Just because you don't like rap doesn't mean your snark is wanted.

⬐ jfoldi

B.I.G. would have been a better choice.

⬐ tkoh

I disagree. Musical preferences aside, this took place during a performance by Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre and given their history and the Southern California location of Coachella, Tupac was the right choice. Not sure that either Snoop or Dre ever collaborated with B.I.G.

⬐ jgrahamc

The technology behind this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musion_Eyeliner which uses the old Pepper's Ghost trick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppers_ghost

⬐ parkan

I can't wait for real animated holography to become available commercially. The static prints that Zebra Imaging makes are already incredible (full color, 90 degree viewing angle, etc) and the video footage of their live table prototype looks nuts, though it needs on the order of 100GBps of hogel data coming into the surface for 3x3ft image...

⬐ cdr

It's been on HN, but the same tech has been used extensively for a couple years now to produce Vocaloid concerts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzYssX-CcSY#t=1m37s

It really is quite amazing unless you're at a pretty significant angle to the screen, like in the nosebleed seats or to the extreme left/right.

⬐ andrewpi

A short video that shows how the Musion system works: http://vimeo.com/7047856

⬐ ahelwer

This led me on a one-hour Wikipedia detour and I now possess detailed development knowledge of Disney's Haunted Mansion theme park ride.

Seriously cool stuff.

⬐ manveru

Have you read http://craphound.com/down/ (Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom) yet?

⬐ MengYuanLong

Doctorow's novel is amazing. It really inspired me to change the way I approach life and appreciate value. Plus, it is relatively short!

Basically, that book is to blame for me converting from a slacker to a hacker.

⬐ zecho

There's a whole fascinating book about the evolution of this illusion. http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-Elephant-Magicians-Impossible-D...

⬐ slipperyp

You and Aziz Ansari.

⬐ jgrahamc

There's only 37 minutes between my post and your reply :-)

⬐ its_so_on

He meant Wikipedia time. I've spent three hours reading Byzantine history and related articles in about an hour.

Check for yourself with a timer:

1) http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

go.

⬐ bira

"I now possess detailed development knowledge of Disney's Haunted Mansion theme park ride"

Bending time included.