HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ josh2600

If the new Apple processor is actually 7nm fab, that means that Apple is performing at a higher level of execution than basically everyone else in silicon land. Intel just failed spectacularly at shipping 10nm and TSMC is just beginning to do 7nm production hypothetically (I don't think any major production runs have been announced yet, but please correct me if I'm wrong).

If Apple is shipping 7nm in iPhones, that's actually incredible.

Edit: After doing a bit of research, it seems like Intel is actually the odd duck out and TSMC is doing the fab on these chip runs as well as the fab on Huawei's new chip with dual Neural Processing Units. It's actually just Intel that's failing to produce smaller and smaller chips (again, TSMC is producing 7nm for this Apple run as well as Huawei's new chip).

⬐ yladiz

TSMC is Apple's sole fabricator for their A series chips so they must be able to make 7nm chips.

⬐ josh2600

Yeah, I realized my error and edited the post.

⬐ cma

> It's actually just Intel that's failing to produce smaller and smaller chips

Actually Global Foundries just announced they are abandoning 7nm for the short term.

⬐ mooman219

Size is really just a marketing term at this point. Intel "10nm" is about the same as TSMC "7nm". Size of various features is roughly the same between the two. Global Foundries decided to not touch this cycle (at least for the short term). Samsung also decided to slow their pursuit of "7nm" and focus on "8nm".

⬐ AceJohnny2

> Global Foundries decided to not touch this cycle (at least for the short term).

Sounds like GF is dropping out of Moore's Law's race entirely, and changed their strategy to focusing on improving the higher nodes instead:

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333637

⬐ KSS42

AMD has announced 7nm parts also. So, they are only slightly later than Apple with TSMC 7nm.

⬐ plantain

7nm != 7nm - there's a lot of variety between processes.

7nm on a (relatively) small ARM is also a different world to 7nm on a chip the size of the latest Intel's.

⬐ tigershark

6.9B transistors doesn't look small by any standard to me..

⬐ m_mueller

die size would br interesting indeed.

⬐ bookofjoe

Concur. I almost passed out when that slide came up.

⬐ fermienrico

Yep, for most intents and purposes, the "nm" race is mostly used for marketing akin to the "GHz" race back in the 90's and 00's.

See this presentation from Mark Bohr from Intel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApWOf6J858Y

⬐ Odenwaelder

They killed the SE! Now we're stuck with screens too big to use with one hand. I really really dislike this.

⬐ eitally

Sony offers top tier Xperia models in compact sizes, and has for several years.

https://www.sonymobile.com/us/products/phones/#filter= (ctrl+F for "compact").

⬐ singularity2001

Remove Google, add iOS and I consider it. (privacy…)

⬐ kllrnohj

You can flash it with AOSP and then there's no Google: https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/latest-updat...

⬐ singularity2001

Oh wow. That info should be spread!

⬐ masklinn

Yeah but then you've got to use an xperia phone.

⬐ 51Cards

This will probably be my next phone. I have a Pixel v1 right now and unless the Pixel 3 impresses me a lot I will be moving over to a Sony Compact. All the features I want (including a headphone jack and large battery) in something that isn't a mini tablet.

⬐ endemic

Amazingly, they also offer official AOSP builds (https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/latest-updat...). LineageOS is also supported on the Xperia Z5 Compact. GApps optional for the privacy conscious.

⬐ Youden

> LineageOS is also supported on the Xperia Z5 Compact.

There's also unofficial support for the more recent XZ1 Compact.

⬐ balladeer

I was immediately put off by the generous bezels on top and bottom.

Sony had really improved on this aspect of late (actually kinda got rid of that questionable design and form factor that was ubiquitous in Sony phones). It seems they figured they need it back for some reason.

⬐ singularity2001

The first seconds I was so hoping the XR would be the new SE with fullscreen lcd at 4.2'' and a bit cheaper, not such a giant beast. I even endured the tiresome 'incredible bla …' … just to be disapointed.

⬐ zelos

That's ridiculous: I was hoping the SE2 rumours would turn to to be true. No idea what I'll upgrade to when my current SE stops running up-to-date iOS then.

⬐ ballenf

It would make a lot of sense to hold off on announcing it for a lot of reasons: customer confusion not to mention encouraging spend on pricier devices.

Could realistically be a holiday release or 1q 2019, especially since they won't have a Red phone to release then.

⬐ rusk

Actually yeah .. the original SE was a special release now that I think of it ...

⬐ phinnaeus

Here I go, getting my hopes up again. I think realistically March is the best bet, but if I'm being honest with myself, I don't seriously believe Apple will release another SE-sized device.

⬐ walterbell

SE is awesome for travel where you want the phone to fill certain critical needs then stop distracting you.

There will be a thriving SE market on eBay.

⬐ lowlevel

Well, I don't know about you but I wouldn't even list mine on eBay with a $1000 reserve...

⬐ singularity2001

Best moment when a friend with oversized Plus had spontaneous SE envy.

⬐ phyrex

I'm really upset about this. I HATE large screens and not for the lack of trying!

⬐ MBCook

It’s not even the SE. I have an 8 and like the size. I would have preferred the Xr to be the physical size of the 8 so I do t have to move up if I want something newer.

⬐ masklinn

The XS is the smallest of the lineup, and pretty much the replacement for the old baseline, it's 5mm taller and 4 wider than the old baseline IIRC>

⬐ ynniv

The larger screen means you can't touch the far corner with one hand, though.

⬐ masklinn

I already couldn't do that on a 6 without a grip change from my regular hold.

⬐ jotjotzzz

As an SE user, me too. I wished they would have done a refresh for the SE.

⬐ lowlevel

I was sure if I wanted the old design I had to buy it before the next iPhone. But yeah, standing still isn't really a good look for a tech company... Just because I don't want to use my face as a password or talk to a virtual assistant, or hold a phone that slips out of my hand and smashes on the ground due to rounded edges doesn't mean the iPhone X/XS/XR aren't great phones....

⬐ jotjotzzz

Definitely great phones, but I still prefer the iPhone SE size. If they upgrade the SE with the innards of the XR + with same cameras + full front screen, it would be perfection.

⬐ pat2man

While I liked the smaller size, the fact is that the vast majority of people prefer a larger screen for all sorts of reasons. The solution is for app developers to move as much as possible to the bottom section of the screen, which is happening relatively quickly on iOS.

Secondary actions may still require a second hand, but most primary actions should not.

⬐ iainmerrick

This is what everyone is saying, but the "vast majority" is what, 95% of a vast market? 97%? That still leaves a decent-sized market, which I would think could sustain a perfectly viable business.

Apparently I would think wrong, but what's the issue? Is it just not possible to manufacture a high-quality small phone for a mere 1% of the world market? Plenty of Android manufacturers are making decent phones for much smaller market segments than that...

⬐ kartickv

Not disagreeing with you, but as a developer, I'm happy that we can now do UX design for 4.7-inch phones, and prevent installation of our app on smaller phones.

You do that in an indirect manner, by requiring NFC, thus eliminating 4-inch phones, which don't have NFC: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/De... (Cmd-F nfc). If Apple had updated the iPhone SE with NFC, this trick wouldn't work any more, and I'd be forced to do UX design for 4-inch phones.

Till I find product-market fit, I don't want to be distracted by overhead like this.

⬐ linkregister

That sounds directly user-hostile. Imagine if HN's web server served 401s to everyone with a Mozilla user agent.

⬐ calcifer

Literally everyone already has a Mozilla user agent.

⬐ kartickv

I see where you're coming from, but you're missing the point that startups are all about finding product-market fit with the least money, time and people.

Guess what's worse than an app that doesn't support your particular model of iPhone? An app that supports all possible devices and configurations, but that doesn't solve a problem users care about. Then all the time and resources that went into it go down the drain.

⬐ yurishimo

Just curious, since I'm not a mobile developer, is most app design done with pixel perfect layouts now? I vaguely remember watching a YouTube tutorial years and years ago (iPhone 4 I think) about making apps and many of the interface elements would expand/contract to the devices screen.

Not bashing on your decision, just generally curious. If so, that sounds like a lot of work to make custom interface layouts for a half dozen devices.

⬐ kartickv

Entirely reasonable question, but I wasn't talking about making custom layouts for each device. I'm also talking about a single UI design that is responsive to different screen sizes. But instead of supporting all iPhones, if we instead support 4.7-inch screens and above, that's less work, because there are fewer cases to handle.

Taking your example of expand/collapse, when you implement it, it's more complex than it appears when watching a Youtube video: you now have to handle three states: a collapsed state on small screens, an expanded state on small screens, and big screens, which don't have expand/collapse. This imposes more work on the designer to design for these states and make sure they're all usable and look good, perhaps with animated transitions between them. On the engineers, who have to deal with multiple code paths and edge cases. On QA, to spend more time trying to test more scenarios on different devices. Everything sounds simple till you code it up :)

Now, if you could eliminate this complexity by not having to collapse the control in the first place, that would be simpler. Maybe there's enough space on the 4.7-inch screen for that.

UIs scale up better than down. I prefer to do UI design for the smallest supported screen size. If we choose to support 4-inch screens, we may have to choose a UI design that's not optimal for 4.7-inch and bigger screens, which the majority of our users actually use. Whereas if 4.7 was the baseline, we may be able to come up with a better design for most of our users.

All these problems are, of course, solvable, but if they take X amount of time to solve, is there something more beneficial you can do in that time?

⬐ bunderbunder

I had already been feeling slightly worried since installing Moment and being informed that I spend 1.5-2 hours a day looking at my phone.

Not being able to replace my current distract-o-phone with another comfortably-sized one might be the thing that convinces me to give the new Nokia bananaphone a try.

⬐ dr_

I have iPhone X. I use the Reachability function often, and find it fairly easy to use the phone with one hand.

⬐ pfortuny

Same as I with a 7. Reachability is quite well worked out.

⬐ sh87

2 years ago got a 7 over a 7+ for single handed use felt the SE was too small. Now, I'm just so at ease on the rare occasion that I get to use it. Said owner doesn't like it claiming its 'slow'. I on the other hand just may switch over to a refurb SE.

⬐ lowlevel

I've gone through a few of them since buying mine 6 months ago, and yeah it's going to be slow unless you manage to get one with iOS 10 on it.

⬐ sh87

Apple seems to be pushing real hard towards its OS upgrades. I imagine staying put on iOS 10 would involve a bunch of challenges including effort and time. Can't find a lot of resources to follow online either.

In stark contrast is my Moto X2, after 2 years of heavy daily use before my current phone, and one screen replacement is still chugging along pretty well on its archaic version of Android.

The argument that iPhones have superior hardware and build quality resulting in longer usage is negated by this constant push for upgrades. I think I know where I am headed for my next phone.

⬐ Shivetya

I am impressed the X(s) has more screen space than my 8+ has in a similar form factor. So I can have more screen without having to jump up again in size.

I do admit however I would have liked to see an X in the same size as a base 8.

⬐ None

None

⬐ ksec

An theoretical iPhone Xr 4.7" would actually be the same size as iPhone SE. Something that Apple may consider doing next year.

⬐ untog

Yeah, this feels like a huge shame. Android doesn't really offer anything comparable either. I realize the market for smaller devices is a minority one, but it is really so small that no-one will cater to it?

You'll have to remove my SE from my cold, dead hands. It's not just one handed operation, it's simply a much better size and I'm yet to see any reason I'd want a bigger one.

⬐ jrockway

I think the problem is that there are two types of people that use phones, those that think of a phone as a mini-computer, and those that think of a computer as a very large phone.

Many of us on HN are probably in the first group. I look at my phone as a portable computer that's a big compromise for portability; as soon as I am within range of an actual PC, I will switch to using that. (Example, my phone is great for checking when the train is going to arrive. But before I leave for the station, I've already checked the schedule on my computer.)

That usage pattern probably places us in the minority. Many people are using their phone to do things that they can't do on a computer; Snapchat, Instagram, games, etc. Those simply don't run on computers. But they suffer from the same ergonomics complaints that we do, so they make a good market for computer-shaped phones. And that is what Apple is releasing today.

⬐ DaveSchmindel

I can imagine Apple has quite a few linguists on its payroll; They are still beating the words “beautiful” and “best” to death in their keynotes. It’s tough to not be excited about new features that are debuted upon each release, but it’s also getting monotonous to hear, “Product X is the _best_ version of its kind. Product Y is the _most_ <adjective> we’ve ever created and its pictures are simply _beautiful_.”

⬐ namedlambda

I am not a native speaker but the repetition of "best X we have ever built" or "best X yet" or "most advanced" and their unimaginative variations took away what could have been one of the best (pun intended) product launches of the year.

⬐ gruturo

Not only, but the overuse of "Product X is the best $thing we have ever made", while hearing also "and we completely redesigned it" pretty much every year creates the overall impression that they keep getting things wrong.

⬐ rz2k

It's a content-free statement, so it always makes jump to thinking about a sad distant future instead. Like a heat death of the universe, or when there is just a decline in economies of scale, the next phone might cease being the best ever produced.

⬐ pastor_elm

Apple site on the XR: "Brilliant. In every way."

Reminds me of Fury Road: "I had a baby brother! And he was perfect in every way!"

⬐ alttab

Their lack of vocabulary is INCREDIBLE.

⬐ curuinor

Their ability to communicate to terrible english speakers is also incredible.

⬐ jimbokun

Sad attempt to continue imitating the speaking style of Jobs. I'm sure Steve would have moved on to new adjectives, or mixed things up a little more, if he was still with us.

⬐ agumonkey

Not much the choice of word but the context of use, when Jobs said something you knew, being Jobsian elitist, it meant something. The boys today on the other hand.. feels like a cult a little bit.

⬐ lwansbrough

Not to mention if the product isn't the "best" they've ever made, what good is it? Saying "best" at a new product announcement might as well be replaced with "newest". And how stupid does that sound?

⬐ m_mueller

also “this is breakthrough” all over the place. not a native English speaker but this sounds wrong to me.

⬐ wmeredith

It is wrong. And it's annoying.

⬐ clamprecht

"Immersive"

⬐ abtinf

There is a joke here somewhere relating Apple's marketing speak and Trump's speech patterns...

⬐ clwk

Yesterday evening, my daughter noticed an iPad had been removed from its case and held up the empty one asking what gives? My immediate response, "What you're looking at is the THINNEST, LIGHTEST, iPad we've ever produced. It's 127% faster than the case alone. And now for something we know you're going to love. In the past you've enjoyed lunch, and you've told us about how much you liked late lunch. Tonight we have something really special for you, and I can't wait to tell you about it. Introducing dinner."

⬐ thirdsun

"Unapologetically nutritious."

⬐ bonoetmalo

Lmao, thanks for making me laugh at work.

⬐ lucb1e

The thing is, when Steve Jobs spoke such words unironically, the apple fans swallowed every word whole. And the non-fans were comparing it to existing products but also didn't really remark much upon it. But yeah, when they keep repeating it when there is nothing new to report...

⬐ untog

It occurs to me today how sad it is that we only have two viable mobile ecosystems these days. I have an iPhone SE, which Apple has opted not to update. That's their decision to make, I suppose, but no-one else can make iOS devices and I really don't want to switch to Android (it isn't ignorance, I've used it since the Nexus One, I've just grown to dislike it for privacy and UI performance reasons over time, and it doesn't have great hardware in the size I want either)... and there aren't really any other choices.

Sigh. It's enough to make me nostalgic for Windows Phone.

⬐ scrooched_moose

Same. I'm clinging to my 6S (and possibly doubling up on cases for protection) because I truly don't want anything on the market now. I imagine in a year or two I'll be forced into something else but this is disappointing.

⬐ standerman

If you haven't yet, it might be a good idea to have Apple replace the battery at the $29 rate before the end of the year, to extend it's useful life.

⬐ pjmlp

I still use my Lumia 650 DS as 2nd phone, and as usual on the Android world my LG is stuck on Android 6 patch level April 2018, while the Lumia keeps getting regular updates.

⬐ GFischer

UI performance in Androids is decent these days. Privacy, well... no.

Even within the Android ecosystem, it's very sad that innovation is stymied. The only ones that even try are LG and they always fall flat.

There's a long list of different Android phones I'd like to see:

- Keyboard / Accessible phones. My mother in law has some disabilities that prevent her from using a touch-phone and she's using an Android phone with keyboard for messaging. Once it breaks, I'll be hard pressed to find a replacement

- Small size phones with decent specs. Lots of people are very vocal about that, a current coworker spent a lot of time searching and got frustrated, the only small phones available were basically dumbphones

- Specialist phones, I can't believe we still don't have phones with physical camera button and better swappable lenses (I think Sony tried that one, and there are some add-ons).

Sure there are a lot more undeserved niches.

⬐ None

None

⬐ oxplot

On Android, you can assign volume buttons to be there shutter button. You can also open the camera at anytime even when locked, by double clicking part button.

⬐ megy

I think every single phone in the last 10 years uses a volume button as a shutter.

⬐ GFischer

Yeah, and none of those options work as well as the camera button in the old Nokias (I was a happy Nokia user as well, but they missed the boat with their software, even though their hardware was top notch)

⬐ oxplot

This is a matter of taste. It works better for me. I have used phones, Sony's specifically, that do sport a dedicated button. I never used them because I'm not used to the location of the button I use once in a while. The power button however I use multiple times an hour so I can put the phone into camera mode and take a photo with my eyes closed.

⬐ ascii_only

-keyboard Blackberry key2

-small size Sony xz2 compact

⬐ GFischer

Cool, I'll have to hunt for a Blackberry key2 then. Thanks for the tip!

⬐ lucb1e

My mom has one of those compact Sonys, it's laden with crapware that pop up notifications day and night and cannot be uninstalled. Her being her, she doesn't know what to do with it all.

I am going to take a good look at the phone again soon, but I honestly can't recommend Sony to anyone who isn't tech savvy and/or doesn't intend to root it (I guess I should have after all -- by now many hours went into configuring it, and since you can't back an Android phone up properly, I'd have to redo all of that).

⬐ ppseafield

I miss the camera button on my Nokia 928. All of the Windows phones were required to have it. Now my Nexus 5X occasionally opens the camera when I don't want it to (It thinks or is accidentally triggered for a double power button press.)

I looked into phones with physical keyboards a couple years ago for my mother, and I couldn't find anything except an old LG feature phone that hadn't been manufactured in years.

I had a Samsung S3 mini that was a bit slow but worked alright. Battery was a problem, but the phone was old when I got it. It worked well for most things except extensive reading.

I had an Alcatel Idol 3, and the display was pretty low resolution for its screen size, but I would get almost two days of battery out of it between charges. Unfortunately the physical power button broke.

⬐ vedtopkar

FDA approval to market the new Apple Watch as a medical device is a huge deal.

⬐ dv_dt

I wonder if that ECG feature might change the market perception of the device - maybe that was the intent. With the ECG and slip and fall detection, I sort of thought it makes the Apple Watch sound like the most consumer medical alert bracelet ever.

For people with aging parents that don't really use mobile phones, I could many watches purchased as safety devices. (Though the battery life doesn't make it ideal for that...)

⬐ 51Cards

Agreed on the battery life. The concept is a good idea but my mother would never keep this charged up and on her wrist constantly enough for it to be relied upon.

⬐ dv_dt

That was my thought too. Hmm I wonder how bulky a battery add on to get the uptime to a week at a level of monitor-only activity might be?

⬐ Alex3917

The slip and fall protection is great. I had a tree branch fall a few feet from my head last weekend. Probably not big enough to have killed me, but I would have sure as hell been too concussed to figure out how to use the phone. Of course there wasn't cell service anyway, but that's a different issue.

⬐ pageandrew

If there was any cell signal on any technically compatible network, your emergency call would've been carried by another network.

⬐ Corrado

I wonder if the new slip and fall detection works with motorcycles. There is quite a market for apps and devices to detect motorcycle accidents and notify someone in case something bad happens while your on 2 wheels. That would be a pretty good market to get into, basically for free.

⬐ Shivetya

I am interested in the idea of having one and using it on multiple members of the family, can it differentiate among a number of users? That would be a nice feature. Kind of how you personalize a car for multiple drivers.

⬐ macintux

No, it's very much a single-user device, still tied to an iPhone.

Fall detection, heart rate abnormality detection, wouldn't seem to be the type of things you'd want to only use for a short time each day anyway. You could presumably use the ECG feature on multiple people, however.

⬐ gmailsyncer

Would people line up to buy the Rolex Submariner FDA-approved version?

⬐ el_benhameen

Yeah, agreed. I have never thought of buying an Apple Watch for myself or as a gift, but after seeing that, I would at least consider buying them for my mother and mother-in-law.

⬐ gmailsyncer

The iWatch. Yesterday's hip fashion accessory. Tomorrow's colostomy bag.

⬐ wintorez

May I ask why is it a huge deal?

⬐ Spooky23

With a prescription you’ll be able to use HSA/Flex Spending or insurance to buy one.

⬐ tfandango

It seems like that could be possible, even without a prescription. I can buy any number of non-prescription things with my HSA now. Obviously this seems a little different than say a blood glucose testing device. Next year they will probably amend it with a "*excluding Apple Watch"

⬐ scarface74

Why would an insurance company care about what you do with your HSA/Flex account. They aren't out of any money.

⬐ 24gttghh

The IRS might care since they are the ones who enforce the rules surrounding their use, not your insurance company...

⬐ scarface74

I took the parent post as implying that the insurance company would try to exclude purchasing the Apple Watch.

⬐ tfandango

Sorry that was not clear (and this response is late). I know my HSA admin limits use of those funds for medically approved things only. I assume based on rules that the government created. I am just speculating that they may have to start dealing with devices like this which have a dual purpose, mostly not medical.

⬐ gmailsyncer

That's fucking brilliant. Tesla, are you listening? I want the car to be an FDA approved monitoring device.

⬐ apkar

"This feature has received clearance from the US Food and Drug Administration, meaning it can be used as a medical device — a move that is part of Apple’s increasing push to brand the watch as more than a fitness device." - https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17850660/apple-watch-seri...

⬐ mandeepj

It is not easy to get any FDA approval. Companies go bankrupt after spending millions and still don't get approved.

⬐ johnnyfaehell

When you have more money than the government that’s no so much of a problem.

⬐ mandeepj

Yes, Apple is excluded from that statement. The company which had a budget of $1 billion for their new headquarters and end up spending $5b :-)

⬐ mpweiher

And have that still be a rounding error on their balance sheet. :-)

⬐ masklinn

Technically Apple has more money than some governments, it's nowhere near the US Government's: Apple's entire assets could pay for under 18 months of net interest on the public debt (263bn in 2017).

⬐ tinus_hn

The US has negative money, they are in debt. I have more money than the US.

⬐ masklinn

The US has assets to cover its debts in spades. Nobody would give them money for free if they didn't.

And the debt is owned at ~50% by the government itself or the Fed and ~20% by various non-federal investors (pensions, mutual funds, local governments, individuals) with the rest being owned by various non-US entities.

⬐ singularity2001

Maybe you can make an offer to buy the US with 30% of your net worth. Then resell to a hedge fond.

⬐ tinus_hn

I don’t think I have the patience to deal with the ‘deal maker’ in chief, sorry. I’ve heard he’s got quite a lot of experience with bankruptcies though so he might have new ideas to deal with all that debt the US has been taking on lately.

⬐ snowwrestler

The U.S. federal government can accumulate only debt, it cannot accumulate savings. Why? Because any surplus it generates is stored in Treasury bonds, which are also counted as debt.

Things are different for the federal government. It's an institution of last resort, so the normal ways of thinking about personal finance don't apply. It can't open a "savings account" anywhere, because every other institution on Earth is smaller and less reliable.

⬐ pkaye

They have different types of approval based on the risks involved. Some are a lot easier to obtain.

⬐ None

None

⬐ dominotw

Didn't theranos get FDA approval too.

⬐ yostrovs

It's a 510k "clearance", not an "approval". It's relatively cheap and all you have to do is show your thing (ECG in this case) is effectively the same as other similar devices (older ECGs) for medical purposes.

⬐ o_____________o

Was looking for this in the comments.

The ambiguity there is abused by many companies on the fringes of consumer health and cosmetic products.

> A 510(k) is a premarketing submission made to FDA to demonstrate that the device to be marketed is as safe and effective, that is, substantially equivalent (SE), to a legally marketed device that is not subject to premarket approval

⬐ None

None

⬐ joshuakcockrell

With FDA clearance you're allowed to brand and advertise your product as a "medical device". Also, without FDA approval, you have to be very careful about certain terms you use to describe your product's features. For example, without FDA approval, you cannot say your device "monitors" falls. You can only say it "tracks" falls. There are several other limitations because the FDA doesn't want you making these types of medical claims to customers unless the FDA has approved them.

Source: I worked on a fall detection app for the Apple Watch last year.

⬐ josefresco

clearance, not approval.

⬐ vedtopkar

You're totally right, huge distinction. Sorry for mis-speaking!

⬐ MrUnderhill

Anyone know how ECG from the watch compares to a device like the QardioCore [1] (or more traditional Holter monitor, i.e. the recorder with pads/wires all over)?

[1] https://www.getqardio.com/qardiocore-wearable-ecg-ekg-monito...

⬐ aesclepius

Sounds like the QardioCore has a 3 lead ECG. Couldn't find too much more on that, as their website is painful at best. Holter monitor is a 12 lead ECG but with some decreased signal fidelity. This is just a single lead monitoring for rhythm like a tele strip.

⬐ eyeball

I wonder if I can use my flexible spending account to buy one now.

⬐ None

None

⬐ sschueller

FDA approval doesn't hold much water anymore with things like a study of 25 people is enough to get transition contacts approved [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16864566

⬐ bookofjoe

More than a huge deal, simply astonishing to this retired long-time neurosurgical anesthesiologist. To have 1)shrunk the giant oscilloscope/monitor (1-1.5 cubic feet/±50 lbs.) atop my anesthesia machine AND eliminate the long tangled lead wires connecting to the never-available sticky gel pads that sometimes came loose in the middle of a sitting craniotomy, necessitating the anesthesiologist's equivalent of the death crawl under the stifling drapes without disturbing the surgeon, glued to his operating microscope in which every movement, even the slightest, appears like Mt. St. Helen's; 2)eliminated the need for an electrical outlet and extension cord; 3)included the capability to store endless ECG traces without needing paper for the oscilloscope printer, which more often than not wasn't working, and when it was only recorded on demand such that if you missed ectopic beats, you couldn't show them to a colleague in real time to get a second opinion: this is a magnificent engineering and design achievement. Using a thumb from the opposite hand to close the loop and act as the third functional lead is so sublime, I'm gobsmacked. The red ring on the crown is perfect as an accent for this function, along with its acting as a cellular capability indicator. Knowing just what this device has accomplished in the terms above, I might just get one just to marvel at the greatness of American engineering. "Designed by Apple in California" — indeed.

⬐ ksec

Same here. I was actually surprised at how affordable it was, maybe it was harder to sell FDA and ECG to general public? I was expecting something like $599 or even $699.

To me this new Apple Watch was the star of the show.

⬐ pjob

Hasn't this been addressed by products like AliveCor's kardia line for a while now? I'd prefer the form factor of a phone-paired device over a watch in a multi-patient environment.

⬐ plantain

The showmanship really feels like it's run out.

Even when it was the post-Jobs Ive and Cook it was still captivating, but this is just tiresome.

⬐ mistersquid

The Apple Watch announcements were intriguing.

The iPhone announcements were, I agree, quite tiresome. So much so, I closed the window a few minutes into Schiller's discussion of the chips in the new models.

I suspect it's because I can only do so much with a phone and nothing in the "smartphone" space jumps out to me as "revolutionary". It seems that innovational leaps in mobile computing will depend on what software becomes available.

⬐ colechristensen

I send and receive text, sound, and images on my phone. I don't need a revolutionary anything to do that, and the only thing keeping me upgrading is eternal bloat of applications.

What would really be revolutionary is a phone that wouldn't shatter when I drop it.

⬐ TylerE

The thing that really annoyed me was that after virtually every segment it was "I have a video I want to show you" that was just regurgitating the precious segment.

Either/or, not both.

⬐ matwood

Because at this point phones are kinda boring. The new chips seem cool, but look completely wasted on a phone. Where is the iPad Pro with the new chips? What about the long rumored MacBook with A-bionic whatever?

Nothing in todays announcement makes me want to upgrade my current iPhoneX. Better graphics on a tiny screen? Yawn. The basketball tracker demo was neat, but those are very specific use cases.

The Apple Watch looks like it is really coming into its own. They should have closed with that.

EDIT

You know what would have really blown the doors off the one more thing? If the iPhone Xr started at $499. That's how you grow the market.

⬐ Ataraxy

Would you say they just phoned it in?

⬐ TheOtherHobbes

It would be noteworthy (amazing, beautiful, best ever, etc, etc) if they did that, with (e.g.) a live presentation out and about around the world, instead of running the stock The Ghost of Steve Jobs Says Wow script generator macro.

But I guess if you're a trillion dollar company you don't have to try all that hard to think different.

⬐ minimaxir

(the previous poster was making a phone pun)

⬐ 394549

> but this is just tiresome.

Especially the exaggerated adjectives. Everything's "gorgeous," "beautiful," or "stunning," even if it's just a featureless black slab like every other phone for the last 5 years.

⬐ oh_hello

This presentation gave the this feeling more than any other I can remember. However, thinking about it now I realize this is a relatively minor event compared to many or most in the past. This was a year of an "s" iPhone model with minor spec bumps, a new lower-end model, and an updated watch with a design that is not radically different. You really can't compare this with unveilings of technological leaps or massively new products.

⬐ singularity2001

Especially the iPhone xr was a very annoying tiresome repeat of a repeat. After 15 minutes they named about three specs that are different: color, lcd, camera, size.

⬐ Shivetya

I could do with less video presentations, they break the flow too much for me. It is almost like intermission during a movie.

⬐ toasterlovin

Phones just aren't as exciting anymore.

⬐ agumonkey

I wonder how phones were pitched before the iphone... 300 instead of 250 contacts ? I guess it was mostly aesthetics..

⬐ pjmlp

Aesthetics for the regular people.

Geeks would go though which feature set from J2ME, or Symbian OS were being made available, specially on Nokia and Sony-Ericson models.

⬐ agumonkey

I mean, nothing to make a keynote about. I think a phone release was mostly a salesman event.

⬐ pjmlp

Actually they used to be presented at company sessions at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona.

⬐ agumonkey

oh right

⬐ megy

You sound like the sort of person who shouldn't be watching the live feed, and wait for the articles, like me.

⬐ Corrado

Agreed. And I thought the applause was very...scripted? It seemed like everyone was waiting for the appropriate time to clap and when they did it was very lack-luster. Almost like it was a bunch of Apple employees responding to cue cards or something.

⬐ whywhywhywhy

Might be just me but Cook felt like he'd had lessons on coming across more passionate and excited, he was over-emoting so much at times.

Previously he's felt a bit dry at times.

⬐ None

None

⬐ adrr

I just wish they would stop saying "the most advanced X ever made". Every new revision of a product is the most advanced version of the product.

⬐ nailer

Just read your comment and hit play on the livestream to hear Jonny Ive immediately say "the most advanced LCD in a smartphone"...

⬐ AdamJacobMuller

I understand that to a degree, there theoretically could be a better screen in a competitors phone, though I still think its tired out.

The constant "This is the best X that Apple has done, or the best X in an iPhone/iWatch" was seriously grating. Well, duh, new year, new products. If this wasn't better then apple wouldn't be releasing it....

⬐ chooseaname

Why would they stop? They have people like Rene Ritchie who live and breathe what they say and repeat it on their website for other people who live and breathe it.

⬐ SiVal

And the most expensive. Maybe they could get J. Ive to use his best "I'll be your server today" voice and purr about how, "We think you'll agree that this is the most expensive iPhone we've ever made."

⬐ slg

It is interesting that Apple will now sell 7 distinct phone models. Throw in the different capacities and carriers and you have a few dozen different SKUs. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a notable deviation from their early approach to the iPhone.

⬐ samfisher83

Steve Jobs was the one who axed a lot of their products in their early years.

⬐ threeseed

And he also added a lot of products during his time.

⬐ bhasi

Sorry, what's an SKU?

⬐ nateroling

Stock Keeping Unit, basically an identifier for a unique product. Usually pronounced "skew."

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stock-keeping-unit-sku....

⬐ smitherfield

When the original iPhone launched there was no other product like it; nowadays they need to be able to compete with Android on price.

⬐ endemic

Compete on price? They're getting more and more expensive...

⬐ 21

Flagship Androids are also getting more and more expensive.

⬐ GFischer

Both Apple and Samsung are going to get their lunch eaten by Xiaomi, Huawei and the rest I guess, then.

I'm eagerly awaiting the Pocophone F1 release here in Uruguay.

⬐ lucb1e

That rings true. Huawei owner here who, when purchasing, was doubting between a Lenovo, Xiaomi and this Huawei. Didn't have to think long when seeing what Samsung asks for a mid- or high-end phone (or when comparing specs of their low-end models).

⬐ microtherion

That must be an odd definition of "lunch", given that Apple tends to capture roughly 80% of Smartphone profits, Huawei about 6%, and Xiaomi even less than that.

⬐ GFischer

Now. But they're in serious danger of being disrupted from the bottom.

http://www.claytonchristensen.com/key-concepts/

Low-end disrupters (think steel minimills and discount retailers) come in at the bottom of the market and take hold within an existing value network before moving upmarket and attacking that stratum

⬐ microtherion

For a value of "now" that includes the last 10 years. And for the entire time, low end disruption has been predicted, with the list of designated disruptors occasionally changing.

⬐ GFischer

One pretty good barrier that Apple has built and defends well is the phone as a status symbol and object of desire.

But, as a phone, I think low end disruptors are here, and I can't understand why people would pay 3 or 4 times as much as needed for a phone - other than that they have the money, and they want the phones for reasons unrelated to performance (aesthetics, perceived quality, privacy, etc.).

Xiaomi in particular is trying to erode that particular Apple barrier, their flagships are already objects of desire in India, China and in my country (Uruguay).

⬐ newfocogi

It was interesting to hear apple state that one of their goals for building products was to make them last longer in order to minimize waste. People often accuse hardware manufacturers, including apple, of intentional obsolescence. I am interested to see if they actually change anything about their process, software and hardware, to put any weight behind this claim, or if it is just marketing doublespeak.

⬐ davedx

> I am interested to see if they actually change anything about their process, software and hardware, to put any weight behind this claim, or if it is just marketing doublespeak.

In the same section she said they were already using recycled tin in the control boards, and their recycling programme had been improved too.

To be honest the sustainability part was the most impressive of the whole keynote, and is a reason I'll continue to be a loyal Apple customer.

⬐ donarb

Here's one example, Apple will still repair the iPhone 4 which started selling in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013.

https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service

⬐ rasz

No, this page is a lie. apple will not repair 4, they will sell you replacement 4 (all data you might had on yours is gone).

⬐ xvector

Has it ever really been marketing doublespeak? AFAIK, Apple keeps their devices updated longer than any other hardware manufacturer.

⬐ agumonkey

same was true about desks in the iMac days, I was shocked that even crippled iMacs could run the latest OS X years after the fact without being unusable (slow but usable).

⬐ acomjean

Yes and no.

I have a MacBook pro with full ports. It should last me a while (like a tank). But Windows has generally been far better about supporting older hardware (though MS isn't generally thought of as a hardware... )

My coworker needed a new battery for her Air as it wasn't keeping power long enough for her teaching (it wouldn't make it through her lecture). Apple labeled her machine "vintage" so no official battery replacement available. She was not happy.

Making components non-upgradeable also lowers serviceable life.

They're better at supporting iOS devices, though I have a iPad1 and a iphone4S.

Hopefully this new initiative will help.

⬐ QasimK

I think the biggest thing they could do to make their products last longer is replaceable batteries. My iPhone 6S Plus was given a new life when I replaced its battery. I did this officially, but only because there was a massive discount (£100 -> £30). Newer iPhones battery replacements cost even more especially outside warranty.

⬐ pervycreeper

When was the last time you replaced an iPhone because a metal bracket snapped or something like that? Hard to really keep them accountable on this because of the large lead times involved in assessing the long term durability of their products, so they can just claim whatever they want about it with impunity.

⬐ heisenbit

Besides customer satisfaction it is about maximizing customer lifetime per device sold. Sell a device that lasts 2-3 years and maybe you have a repeat customer. Sell a device that lasts 4-5 years you have a happy initial customer who will repeat buy. More importantly you have someone who got a phone passed down/bought used who is recruited into the Apple ecosystem and may spend on services.

For anyone who wants to dig deeper, Asymco has regularly discussed the life-spans and growth of the Apple eco-system. Latest related post: http://www.asymco.com/2018/03/01/determining-the-average-app...

⬐ lanestp

I can't believe they named a phone X[s]. How can they not see everyone calling it "iPhone excess?"

⬐ stcredzero

How can they not see everyone calling it "iPhone excess?"

Is that necessarily bad? Up to a point, the more meme-ing and acrimony around your brand, the better. "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

⬐ slg

Calling your $1100+ phone the iPhone Excess Max is a great way to get every talk show to discuss an update that appears to be little more than an incremental speed bump.

⬐ samstave

Is it just me, or was there not a very specific arab overtone to the marketing in the videos on this announcement: In the sand, the desert, the oasis village, the gold...

They must really want every Saudi to overspend on the 512gb S Max gold++++

⬐ mthoms

I think it's just because it fits with their other current brand - MacOS Mojave.

⬐ ngngngng

And the colors in the desert matched the new gold iPhone color really well when they zoomed in on it. The appeal to arabs thing is a stretch.

⬐ nickpp

I can’t believe they didn’t call the Xs Max - XL instead. I mean they have an XS and an XL size...

⬐ samstave

Would you like files with that?

⬐ partiallypro

The new iPhone naming convention sounds like a line of condoms.

⬐ phinnaeus

They have an Xs, but it's hardly XS sized.

⬐ mschaef

"XL" has some negative connotations for Apple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_XL

⬐ cuspycode

Negative in what way? In my experience they were excellent machines that had much better overall performance than the original "toaster" models. Their main problem was that they had non-square pixels, but people put up with that for many use-cases.

⬐ lallysingh

33 years ago. I don't think it's a motivation here.

⬐ russellbeattie

I registered xs.io years ago thinking it was a cool, super short domain, but soon realized that it was a true pain to communicate verbally.

I sold it this past summer to someone who has yet to do anything with it. I'm honestly wondering now if it was Apple who bought it.

⬐ pervycreeper

how much for?

⬐ majewsky

Whois shows GoDaddy. I doubt that Apple would be using GoDaddy. In fact, whois on apple.com shows that their registrar is www.cscprotectsbrands.com.

⬐ bertjk

they can probably see it just fine, and they know it won't hurt them. "iPad" was a name lampooned for years before iPads were ever a thing, and that seems to be doing just fine too.

⬐ gdubs

I'm an iPhone user, love the camera, and the new ones look really nice – but the naming feels like 90s Apple with their myriad Mac models. I tuned in late, saw Ives' video, and I'm still like, which is which?

⬐ mpweiher

I was hoping for the iPhone SE[X]. SE form factor, but with the new display. Not sure I need face id. Er: "need".

⬐ spike021

Pronounced as "iPhone Ten Smacks"

⬐ chooseaname

Even "Tennis" and "Tennis Match" is bad.

⬐ agumonkey

and xs is not flagship-like. I'd be Apple I'd have named it SX so bad. I'm still betting that people will nickname it SX.

⬐ paulcole

Wouldn't work. Apple pronounces the X as 10. So it would be S-10 like the Chevy truck.

⬐ azhenley

iPhone XS Max... Extra Small Max is Medium?

⬐ kgwxd

Extra Small Max == Small Min - 1

⬐ zelos

iPhone Tens?

⬐ ct0

first thing i thought. Iphone Max Excess

⬐ 1709345

iPhone Exs

⬐ singularity2001

iPhone Access, like the cute MS database

⬐ tw1010

Everyone thought people were going to make tampon jokes about the iPad Pro ("maxipad"), but as far as I know it hasn't caught on. I don't think this will either, for the same reason. People who buy the phone won't call it that because they sunk so much cost into it. The only ones who might call it the iPhone excess are die hard android users, but those don't communicate much with iPhone users (at least not in such an aggressive way in real life, outside forums), so the phrase won't get any traction.

⬐ smitherfield

There is no "iPad Max"?

⬐ tw1010

Sorry, people were saying this about the iPad Pro. I've updated my post.

⬐ lucb1e

I still don't get it though.

⬐ FPGAhacker

There were feminine hygiene product jokes about the iPad when it came out. It was too obvious to be funny.

That said, all the super duper max promax naming seems lame to me.

⬐ tw1010

There were, but it hasn't caught on long term. I don't think the "iPhone excess" will either.

⬐ VectorLock

>This will be the first ECG product available over the counter to customers.

The AliveCor Kardia has been available for a while. I got one for a family member with atrial fibrillation issues and it works really well and sticks on the back of their cell phone.

⬐ guzik

I don't know why they lie in their presentations. There are at least 100 consumer ECG monitors/trackers on the market.

⬐ theshrike79

The presentations aren't exactly off the cuff, that shit is vetted by two dozen lawyers.

Apple doesn't 'lie'. They might stretch and embellish the truth or use very specific phrasing, but they don't lie.

⬐ Someone1234

This seems like needlessly trying to take an inch. Apple says statements which the average person with a fully array of facts would call untrue i.e. a lie.

The fact that a lawyer somewhere can find a loophole or just enough edge for doubt, doesn't within itself disprove that. It is common tongue, common sense, a lie, a untruth, factually incorrect, etc.

⬐ mattbierner

The base phone price is now $999. The announcement and marketing effectively position the XS as the default model (with the messaging around the XR casting it as a downgrade, more like the iPhone 5C). They also eliminated the regular Plus so users who want a larger phone are forced to the even more expensive Max.

It looks like they pulled this off pretty well too, although sales numbers in the coming months will tell the true story. In one generation they went from, "pay $999 to upgrade to the higher end option (the X)," to, "pay $999 for our regular phone or downgrade to the XR."

⬐ 0x8BADF00D

That’s a good point. You also won’t be able to upgrade your NAND size to 512 GB unless you buy the XS.

⬐ xkr

It might be a dummy question, but what does FDA clearance mean exactly? Does it make the watch a medical-grade device and I can do ECG using the watch instead of going to the hospital?

⬐ mturmon

One possibility (remarked on by @Spooky23 above also) is that you may be able to use a pre-tax healthcare spending account (or similar vehicle - there are a couple) to pay for the device? Similarly, a doctor might be able to prescribe one.

⬐ mereel

I missed the part in the stream about FDA clearance, but my guess is yes, it would be some sort of medical device. However comparing the ECG functionality available for an apple to watch to even a standard portable 12-lead ECG is like comparing a slide rule to a modern GPU. It is definitely _not_ a replacement for going to the hospital, but it is a novelty and might be a good way to tell someone when they should go to the hospital to get checked out.

⬐ admiralEyebrows

One of the points they made was that people who go to the hospital reporting symptoms are not necessarily experiencing those symptoms during the visit, and collecting ECG data when people are going about their daily lives allows doctors to better diagnose heart conditions (Apple Watch ECG data is stored in PDF format in Health app).

An incredible novelty, one that I'm sure many concerned family members will pay $399 for.

⬐ snowwrestler

One of the presenters mentioned this, but a good use of the Apple Watch ECG will be for patients to take an ECG when they feel weird or bad, and then the doctor can review when they come in.

It's not at all uncommon for patients to say things like "sometimes my heart races" or "sometimes I feel faint", but unless it happens when they're actually at the office, the doctor does not have any actual data to go off of.

⬐ sho

> it is a novelty

I'm sure those millions of people who have hospital-grade ECG machines at home have no need for this toy, but for those few who don't, it sounds like an absolute game-changer that could really save lives. The best medical device, like the best camera, is the one you actually have with you when you need it - and as someone who has occasionally worried about what feels like a weird heartbeat, I'll be buying this "novelty" instantly.

⬐ badloginagain

I would expect seniors to be a sizable portion of Apple Watches. Being FDA approved for tracking health would be a huge draw for this audience.

Watch Apple implement a subscription service to call emergency contacts in the event of a health event detected by the Watch.

⬐ waterphone

It does this by default without a subscription service in the event of a detected fall if you do not respond to an alert within a certain amount of time.

Hope nobody falls on their watch and are uninjured but break the touch sensor, preventing them from being able to cancel the 911 call…

⬐ macintux

It only calls 911 if it detects no movement after a fall, so it would have to be the motion sensors in the device that completely fail, not a touch sensor.

⬐ waterphone

I was referring to the failure of whatever mechanism would be used to cancel an alert that appears post-fall.

⬐ macintux

My point is that there is no immediate need to cancel anything if you are moving.

⬐ jdminhbg

I would imagine you could press the digital crown to cancel as well.

⬐ mereel

You're right -- I thinking more of a clinical context, which is definitely the wrong frame for this. From what I've read online, it only seems to detect AFib, which is obviously useful since I think it's the most common abnormal rhythm. Maybe it's only able to detect AFib since it's just on the wearer's wrist? I wonder if there are plans to make little wireless sensors pads to mimic having more leads. That'd be pretty cool

⬐ FireBeyond

Many times you can detect Afib with just your fingers on the radial pulse, as a "regularly irregular" heartbeat, skipping every third or fourth beat.

⬐ macintux

AFib detection is, IIRC, available even without an explicit ECG session.

⬐ aesclepius

The fact that it can pick up on A. Fibb, but likely track and save strips of SVT can at least get the user to a medical evaluation with a licensed physician. It's a big deal, as a medicine resident, this could be a game change for a large segment of the population.

⬐ pdabbadabba

> Does it make the watch a medical-grade device and I can do ECG using the watch instead of going to the hospital?

I think it's more the other way around. To the extent that it is marketed and used as a medical device, it has to be FDA approved.

That said, I don't think I'd recommend using it for an ECG instead of going to the hospital. "Approved" medical devices are not, of course, all of the same quality.

⬐ guzik

> Does it make the watch a medical-grade device and I can do ECG using the watch instead of going to the hospital?

This is what I am afraid of. People might think that buying a watch will replace visit with a cardiologist (or even using professional home holter) to make a serious ECG measurement (not 30s one, but full 24h scan).

⬐ joshuakcockrell

With FDA clearance you're allowed to brand and advertise your product as a "medical device". Also, without FDA approval, you have to be very careful about certain terms you use to describe your product's features. For example, without FDA approval, you cannot say your device "monitors" falls. You can only say it "tracks" falls. There are several other limitations because the FDA doesn't want you making these types of medical promises to customers unless the FDA has approved it.

Source: I worked on a fall detection app for the Apple Watch last year.

⬐ Tomte

IP68 is neat. The second camera is also pretty important. The other differences between Xs and Xr I don't care much about. I don't particularly care about OLED.

I don't play AR games (and I'm disappointed nobody seems to have found an AR killer app. Those games are so lame.

Star constellation recognition is nice, but doesn't excite anyone anymore. But practical uses? Just today I was standing on the beach wondering whether the town in the distance was town A or town B (or if town A is maybe behind the curve). The phone knows my location, my bearing and has a map. It could label POI in display. That's the most practical use I can come up with right now, and I doubt I need the bazillion times improvement in their ML coprocessor for that.

I'm in the market for an iPhone right now. The event didn't wow me enough to really get comfortable with that kind of money.

But will I resist the voices in my head that say that the 7 and 8 are old? I was hoping for a price drop for the original X.

⬐ dlojudice

I had a HUGE expectation on a new MacBook Air! I've watched til the end expecting "one more thing" (which would be unlikely, given it isn't a exactly a new product)

⬐ lowlevel

Yeah, I thought for sure it was gone too ;) it's the only Apple notebook I can recommend at this time.

⬐ smitherfield

Expected in October along with a new iPad Pro and iMac. It's been some time since they launched any new Macs at an iPhone event.

⬐ justadudeama

Do we know when in October?

⬐ smitherfield

Nope.

⬐ thought_alarm

I hate the loss of the home button.

Face ID is fine, but multiplexing so many different features on to the single, poorly-placed, side button has been a huge negative for me.

The side button is way too easy to hit when the device is in your pocket, and when that happens you're activating Siri, or Apple Pay, or some accessibility shortcut, or you're taking a screenshot, or you're activating emergency mode.

I've lost count of the number of times I've pulled my iPhone X from pocket to find that the screen is on, Siri is waiting for a command, and the accessibility menu is on screen.

And when I actually need to take a screenshot, or shutdown the device, I can never remember the actual key combination. It's such a mess.

⬐ uptown

I've been using the X and while it's a great device, the one thing I miss most is TouchID. Things like ApplePay are less convenient using FaceID, so I'm less likely to use it. The side-button double-click is awkward and unnatural feeling. Unlocking the device when it's flat on a desk or table now requires that I pick up the device instead of placing a finger on the sensor. Unlocking on the X seems slower than with the finger -- perhaps because in order to unlock I need to have it aimed towards me, whereas with TouchID I could unlock as I brought the device in front of my field of view. I really wish they'd found a way to keep TouchID even while introducing FaceID capable cameras.

⬐ mstade

This, a million times this. Face ID is such a leap back from Touch ID.

⬐ sixstringtheory

As an iOS developer who constantly needs to reunlock test devices, I simply cannot be required to face each one each time to use FaceID, that’s an ergonomic nightmare.

It also reminds me of the Black Mirror episode where people live in those small rooms with walls and ceilings lined with TV displays, and it would pause ads while it detected they weren’t actively watching. (S1E2: Fifteen Million Merits, probably NSFW)

Maybe Apple will eventually “catch up” to Android and put a TouchID on the back of the phone :D H*ck, make it Apple shaped!

⬐ curun1r

> it would pause ads while it detected they weren’t actively watching

OT, but I absolutely hate the Page Visibility API for this reason. There are sites out there that will pause ads if you switch to another tab or bring up another window in front of your browser. It's stupidly annoying and, at a minimum, should require user permission much like geolocation or notifications.

⬐ mstade

Me too, and I hate face id. It forces me to essentially try to take a selfie to open my phone, or read notifications. I feel it's gotten better over time, but it fails very often and I find myself having to type the passcode all the time. Of course, it doesn't show the passcode option immediately either, you have to wait till it gives up on face id auth so there's a second or so of delay. I often have my phone lying down on the table next to my laptop while working, and face id NEVER works then, unless I look straight at it from above.

Conversely, touch id was perfect. I could just put any one of my registered fingers on the button and it'd more or less instantly open up. I didn't have to look at the phone, I didn't have to pose. It just worked. Face id is a terrible step back, and now there's no option but older phones if you want touch id. I got the touch bar MBP just so I could have touch id on it too, it's great.

I was really stoked about the iPhone X when it was announced, ordered it the second it became available. I didn't like it very much at first but figured maybe it just took some getting used to, but now after a year I honestly think it's a step back. Was waiting for a new iPhone 8 style device, with touch id, but since they've given up on that I guess I just have to get an 8 or get used to the new selfie normal and weird overloaded touch gestures everywhere.. sigh

⬐ asaph

Apple just announced the iPhone Xs. Surgical grade stainless steel. 3 finishes: Gold, Silver, Space Gray. New glass. Waterproof, saltwater proof, even beer proof. 5.8" screen. Still has a notch like the iPhone X. Improved FaceID.

⬐ koolba

> ... even beer proof.

Is beer proofing that different from regular waterproofing? I can imagine juice leaving sugar residue and being sticky. Does beer have similar issues?

⬐ wmeredith

Beer has sugar (alcohol) in it. It gets sticky like juice when it dries.

⬐ spike021

Ever spilled a full to the brim beer on your hands before? It can definitely be sticky.

⬐ johnflan

They didn't give much detail on the improved FaceID

⬐ MBCook

They implied (and I think it’s safe to assume) it’s faster and more accurate.

What I’d like is a wider field of view. I can unlock an iPhonenwith Touch ID while it’s on a table without pointing it at my phone. Face ID couldn’t do that.

Minor issue, but it was annoying from time to time. Hopefully it’s better.

I wonder if they added official multi-person support, not just the ‘alternate appearance’ stuff previously announced.

⬐ grimskin

Same stick-out camera

⬐ celeritascelery

What I found interesting in the presentation was when they called the new iPhones uncompromising. I was thinking “what are you taking about? All engineering is comprise”. Stick out camera is a perfect example.

⬐ noncoml

Pretty underwhelming. Is it a sign for the years to come? I am thinking about shorting AAPL.

⬐ Apocryphon

It's a tock year.

⬐ becauseiam

Of course it's going to be underwhelming - the smartphone market is completely saturated, and the margins on technology advancements in the space are diminishing more and more over time. People are holding onto their devices for much longer these days and the mad rush to get the next best thing is waning. Personally I think this is a good thing as the market is reaching some sort of sustainable, stable ground and no longer in a huge "race to the bottom" as it were.

⬐ beckler

I initially read it as bear-proof and was immediately skeptical. Beer-proof makes much more sense.

⬐ whitepoplar

Is Apple discontinuing the iPhone SE without a replacement? :(

⬐ BillinghamJ

The "R" is the replacement

⬐ whitepoplar

The R is bigger than the iPhone 8. How is it a replacement for the SE?

⬐ mikestew

Let's not shoot the messenger here. You might not like it, but the R is the for "replacement". You'll have to take it up with Apple if you want to know why.

⬐ fusiongyro

You sure about that? The XS is smaller than the XR.

⬐ mikestew

Was the SE about size or price? I thought it was about price, and coincidentally was smaller. If it's the other way around, then you're right. But then my whole world view on Apple's product lineup kind of gets confused.

⬐ fusiongyro

Apple may have intended it to be about price, but look at all the complaining. A lot of people bought it for size.

⬐ whitepoplar

Yep, I bought it for its small size. I still think it's the perfect iPhone. The best in the lineup, even today (notwithstanding it being discontinued).

⬐ phinnaeus

Who can say whether it was about size or price from Apple's perspective except Apple?

For me and a lot of the others in this thread, it was about size. I'm sure very few people complained about the price, but personally I would have welcomed a higher price if it meant better technology (3D touch, wireless charging for example).

⬐ MBCook

There is no evidence the Cr is meant as a replacement, it’s just the bottom of the flagship models.

I think it’s more likely the 7 or 8 are seen as the replacement. They’re smaller (than the X series) and cheaper.

⬐ pat2man

The SE is still available: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/

"Available at authorized resellers"

⬐ guessmyname

Watch the Apple Keynote via MPV or VLC using the following link [1].

[1] https://p-events-delivery.akamaized.net/189kljhbasdcvjhasbds...

⬐ what_ever

The Apple.com video works for me on Chrome on Linux just FYI.

⬐ applecrazy

Same here for Apple.com, Chrome, Windows 10.

⬐ singularity2001

Even worked in FF on linux. THAT is progress!

⬐ applecrazy

I heard it also was streamed on Twitter. That’s the next level of progress.

⬐ lathiat

That's new, all previous keynotes it didn't work in Chrome at all as it didn't support the streaming stuff they were using. Needed Safari or (surprisingly) Edge.

⬐ thcsa

They presented the dynamic depth control with the words: "No other smartphone right now can do that".

Lie. I'm writing this comment on a Vivo Nex and I have been using this for months.

⬐ phinnaeus

Not a smartphone, but there's also these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-field_camera

And this isn't done through ML trickery.

⬐ heartbreak

No, the Vivo Nex cannot adjust depth of field in post-processing. It can adjust depth of field (via aperture) before capture.

⬐ niggah

Definitely has the option to adjust depth of field in post-processing. Done it lots of times.

⬐ thcsa

Wrong. I shoot the photo, and can afterwards (or whenever I stumble upon the photo in my gallery) adjust the depth of field with a slider. Pretty similar to what they did in the presentation. I can even change the subject of focus.

⬐ ynniv

Something to note on the market: AAPL was trending well up during the Watch announcements, and well down during the rest.

⬐ 21

AAPL is one of the most watched and analyzed stocks in the world. What I mean is that it's behavior is beyond the understanding capabilities of a mere mortal which is not heavily involved.

⬐ ynniv

I agree on complexity, but when you see a clear up/down peak that is well correlated to a popular live event... you can make a decent guess.

⬐ 21

Sure, but you don't know what in the popular live event was the trigger of the move. At this level, it might be the color of the shirt of somebody walking on the stage, or the length in seconds of the video for some feature.

⬐ ynniv

Seriously did you look at the chart compared to the Mac Rumors time stamps? This isn't butterflies and hurricanes. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this reply.

⬐ mereel

They just said the new A series processor is made with a 7nm process. That's pretty neat

⬐ gnicholas

It's now possible to change the depth of field after taking the photo. I wasn't paying close enough attention to know if this will also be possible on older iPhones.

EDIT: sounds like it's just the new iPhones. But it includes the less expensive Xr.

⬐ ValentineC

> I wasn't paying close enough attention to know if this will also be possible on older iPhones.

I don't think it was mentioned in the keynote, and I hope it isn't just a software flag like what they did with Live Photos on the iPhone 6S:

https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/15/9546639/3d-touch-live-ph...

⬐ heartbreak

They bought the company ~3 years ago that made a camera with post-processing DoF tech: LinX.

⬐ HSO

I think the LinX acquisition was more related to FaceID.

⬐ samstave

Are you referring to Lightro?

⬐ None

None

⬐ gnicholas

I think you mean Lytro, which definitely came to mind during the keynote. Specifically, when they said that it had never been possible to change DOF in photos before. I was listening carefully to see if they would qualify that with "smartphone photography" — but they didn't. I think Lytro's tech beat them to the punch by around a decade.

⬐ phinnaeus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-field_camera

Light field cameras use different tech as I understand it.

⬐ gnicholas

No doubt they use different tech, but it struck me as untrue to say that never before has it been possible to change DOF after taking a photo. Isn't that precisely what Lytro enabled?

⬐ xvector

This stuck out to me, the inventor and CEO of Lytro was my computer graphics professor at Berkeley.

One of our projects in class about adjusting DoF post-capture, and it was definitely one of our exam questions.

⬐ gpantazes

Was the bokeh functionality using software to create an artificial depth of field effect, or does the camera capture a range of depth of field? My immediate guess was that it's actually clever software, but was it confirmed either way?

⬐ gnicholas

When Portrait Mode was first released, they said that the camera array splits the field up into 9 (IIRC) depths based on distance. So probably what's happening here is they save the depth metadata so that you can adjust how blurred you want the background to be.

⬐ FireBeyond

There's more to bokeh than 'how blurred is the background', it involves things like "how many leafs inside the lens are you using to control aperture".

You can "simplistically" (although still nicely) simulate this, of course.

⬐ kipchak

I believe the bokeh is all software similar to the HTC One M8. The only consumer camera I know of that captures multiple DOF is the now defunct Lyrto's, which Jobs reportedly had an interest in for the iPhone.

⬐ supernintendo

My impression is that the dual-camera models will capture real frames for depth of field and iPhone XR will achieve it in software. I could be wrong about that though.

⬐ FireBeyond

There may be "key frames", but given that changing aperture is a mechanical action, I can't see how they could capture the range short of shooting a (very short) video as the aperture range is swept.

The calculations are software - and they (obliquely) reference this by "made possible by the new processor".

It's similar to Portrait mode, where they were spinning it as "not done by post-processing", when in reality, a la Tesla and Autopilot, whilst not fitting most people's idea of post work (aka Lightroom/Photoshop), the camera generates a preview of the effect then immediately applies it post shutter release.

⬐ thcsa

The Vivo Nex can do this too btw. It's a cool feature though.

⬐ kerbalspacepro

What's a Vivo Nex?

⬐ thcsa

That's a smartphone.

⬐ Chris_Chambers

Not really. It just finds what’s closest and then blurs everything else with a depth-independent uniform blur.

⬐ oflannabhra

I've been doing this since day 1 of having my iPhone X with the app Focos [0]. I spent $10 even though I didn't need to because it was so amazing.

[0] - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/focos/id1274938524?mt=8

⬐ macintux

Thanks, I had no idea this existed.

⬐ asaph

Just announced: Apple now runs on 100% renewable energy.

⬐ giarc

Including fabrication and production? Or just their office buildings?

⬐ ralmeida

At least office buildings and datacenters, unclear (to me) about factories.

⬐ giarc

Unlikely factories as they don't belong to Apple (ex. Foxconn) so maybe a bit of greenwash involved here. Regardless, a step in the right direction.

⬐ ralmeida

I think it’s unlikely too, though they may buy measured or estimated energy consumption in ‘green credits’ (i.e. provide the same amount of clean energy back into the same grid), as pointed out in a sibling comment.

⬐ samstave

They said all of their facilities, worldwide...

Are apple stores considered a "facility"?

Because, I cant see how the apple store in the Valley Fair Mall can get its own apple-power feed?

⬐ Moter8

The claim "running on renewable energy" is false.

See for example:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/10/apple-caught-fibbing-...

https://www.fastcompany.com/40554151/how-apple-got-to-100-re...

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/9/17216656/apple-renewable-e...

(unordered list of sources)

⬐ mavhc

They just calculate what they use, and buy that much from renewable suppliers, there's no separate feed for renewable power

⬐ walrus01

It's not like Apple or any other entity doing this is building new last mile electrical distribution, or putting new PV on the roof of malls. They're buying "credits" for kWh from solar/wind/hydroelectric generation sources, which feed into the same electrical grid operator, matching the number of kWh that the meter for the store consumes in a month.

⬐ praseodym

Does anyone have more information or insight into about Apple’s GPU design? The Apple A12 chip has 4 GPU cores vs. 3 cores in the A11, but GPUs from Nvidia have orders of magitude more (3584 CUDA cores for the GTX 1080 Ti, each of which can run 2048 threads). How do these numbers compare?

⬐ gbear605

Notably, you’re comparing the gpu inside an iPhone to a gpu that is more than twice as big as the entire iPhone.

Unfortunately, I’m not sure about how the actual numbers measure up though.

⬐ singularity2001

The Bionic chip does 5 trillion operations per second. That's about the same as a NVidia GFX 970. Truely impressive!

⬐ brigade

NVIDIA labels each SIMD lane as a core, which is basically the same thing as claiming that Intel makes a 896-core CPU.

Anyway, no matter how you define a "core", GPU core counts don't matter except when comparing different SKUs of the same µarch.

⬐ maithd

I love apple products, but number one thing I still don't understand is why Siri insists on taking up the entire screen. Siri should be a small overlay much like on mac os, its such an oversight by their software engineering team! This still hasn't been addressed on iOS 12.

⬐ asaph

Uhg. Still no Airpods wireless charging case (first announced at last year's September event). I've held off on buying Airpods for a full year because I want the wireless charging case. How much longer will we have to wait for this product, Apple?

⬐ gnicholas

The "super retina" designation doesn't refer to PPI, right? Seems like 458 isn't that much higher than past models, if at all.

Is "super" just a reference to the increased color gamut and true tone functionality?

⬐ hinkley

In laser printers it was a big deal when they hit 200, 300, 400 and 600 dpi.

Going from >300ppi to >400ppi probably warrants a special mention.

⬐ gnicholas

It looks like the last-generation iPhone X also had 458 PPI. I got the impression from the presentation that the super retina display was new to this year. My mistake.

EDIT: Also, if Jobs' original theory about retina displays was that the human eye can't see individual pixels at this threshold (300 PPI), then going above and beyond that is perhaps not that important.

⬐ rstupek

Retina display also takes into account how far the device is from your eyes so higher PPI means you can't see the pixels when holding it closer.

⬐ gnicholas

True, and this is why they refer to computers as having "retina" displays with a lower threshold. But AFAIK, people don't hold phones closer these days than they used to, so wouldn't be a factor here. Might apply to watches?

⬐ xoa

>EDIT: Also, if Jobs' original theory about retina displays was that the human eye can't see individual pixels at this threshold (300 PPI), then going above and beyond that is perhaps not that important.

Keep in mind that sometimes implementation details of technology can hide very important differences, so you need to normalize if you want to compare them. In this case, "pixel" does not have a uniform meaning, because it conceals what actually goes into making each unit of light. The original "Retina" displays were LCDs, high quality high DPI LCDs of course, but still LCDs in terms of the pixels being made from even individual sets of red, green and blue. In contrast the OLED in the iPhone X (and now successors) are "PenTile" designs, diamond pixels with a larger green element and smaller red/blue ones wedged in (taking advantage of the human eye's general spectrum response to some extent). This asymmetric arrangement though can mean that an LCD and PenTile display of equivalent "PPI" can have quite visible differences in resolution, and the PenTile requires a higher PPI to reach equivalent levels of imperceptibility. The percentage of active light emission area to surrounding support area can also have an effect. It's possible that future quantum dot technologies or micro inorganic LED displays or the like could change this again, requiring a lower PPI for the same effect, but we'll see.

Also FWIW "resolution capability of the eye" necessarily involves distance and variations in the general population's resting focal point (there are a lot more near sighted people nowadays). So the PPI necessary to achieve "Retina quality" will be a function of sub-pixel construction, expected typical usage distance (a phone will tend to be used closer then a PC display which in turn will tend to be closer then a living room TV which in turn is closer then a billboard or public projector type system), and exactly how many standard deviations into the population a maker cares about.

⬐ dep_b

When going to (Samsung) OLED you'll need an increase in PPI to have the same sharpness because the layout of the pixels is less optimal than with LCD.

⬐ maz1b

I think the one really innovative thing that is going on at Apple is their investments in their AI/ML/N team. Plus, the silicon team always does great work with the A series cpus and all the new ones too like the S4 for the watch.

I'm going to use my iPhone SE until it no longer works. I don't want bigger phones, and I'll vote with my dollars.

I'm also in the market for a MacBook Pro, but the touch bar is not something I'm interested in at the expense of the function keys. We should be able to get the best of Apple hardware, but not at a compromise.

⬐ folkrav

Dual SIM could be big in some countries.

⬐ davb

I’m quite concerned about the fact that only China will be getting nano-SIM and every other territory will have e-SIM only. On a recent trip from the UK to South Korea and Japan (where my network has very high roaming prices), it was relatively easy to pick up SIM cards from vending machines and desks at airports. I don’t imagine it’ll be as easy to negotiate and activate an e-sim connection.

⬐ singularity2001

you can use esim at home and physical sim on travels, or switch physical sim.

⬐ davb

I got the impression where they said that China would not have e-sim but would instead have a dual SIM tray that it was a mutually exclusive thing. E-sim or physical but not both. I hope I’m wrong. There’s a link on the spec page (point 11 in the small print) to details on the e-sim but it returns a 404.

⬐ singularity2001

Non-China version has 1 esim & 1 physical

⬐ cillian64

The UK specs page for the Xs, https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone-xs/specs/, says dual SIM (nano-SIM + eSIM)

⬐ seanalltogether

This is the biggest announcement for me, because I hope it pushes the rest of the western market to standardize on multiple sims.

⬐ tinus_hn

It’s just a clever ploy to create demand for their e-sim software sim.

⬐ MBCook

Is that more likely than it being a clever ploy to appeal to people with multiple cell numbers?

⬐ tinus_hn

If they use a provider that supports Apple’s e-sim software SIM, that is. The ‘not China’ models don’t have two physical SIM slots.

⬐ lowlevel

Also went from large phone to SE... I can't stand the power button on the side. I can't stand the rounded edges. I can't stand the bending phones (5 now)... and yea, they're all just too big for my hands. iOS 11 has also been a complete nightmare. Dead batteries, hot/slow phone, crashing, text messages have been out of order for over a year. Cost was not a factor. I'm now on my 4th iphone in 6 months due to hardware and software failues, and manufacturing issues. The warranty experience has also gone down hill.. they keep telling me they have to ship my phone away and give me a loaner... only to call me back a day later saying 'uh we have to give you a new phone' ... in the past, they would just give you the new phone while you were there the first damn time and thats really something that has changed for the worse. I managed to get a new SE w/iOS 10.x.x out of them a couple weeks ago... so I'm hoping I'm good for a couple years as long as I don't accidentally update it. It's looking like the iPhone SE will be my last apple product... ever.

⬐ HoppedUpMenace

I still cannot believe that in order to use the latest Apple watch, you still need an iPhone 6 or later with iOS 12 or later. I was dead set on grabbing a watch once I heard what it would feature but after reading the small print, why would I spend money on getting an iPhone, then an expensive monthly plan, followed by a watch, then a separate plan for that?

Is there something I'm not seeing? This seems like a lot of money to front just to get into the device I really want but at the same time having to deal with something I don't want, plus 2 monthly plans.

Edit/update:

So as it stands now, $749 for an iPhone XR, roughly $80/month plan, $499 for GPS + Cellular watch, and $10/month for watch (based on current series 3 watch plan).

That basically breaks down to $1250 plus taxes in upfront costs to get access to a device that, for me anyway, has more useful utility to it than the phone, plus over $100/month (again, after taxes) just so I can utilize the full feature set of said watch.

⬐ KSS42

Those are choices you are making. Other options:

Refurb iPhone7 is $379 (USA only) There are cheaper plans than $80. Do you need cellular watch?

I have an iphone 6+ and I will probably not upgrade to a new phone but get the series 4 GPS watch.

⬐ amanzi

The iPhone is the centre of Apple's universe. They want all their customers on a supported iPhone.

⬐ p1esk

You can buy a refurbished iPhone 6 for a $180, so that would be $680 upfront cost.

⬐ jonknee

The Watch is an accessory to the phone...

⬐ chooseaname

You're obviously not the market for Apple. They want people who don't think, just buy.

⬐ codyb

Couldn't you buy an iPhone 7 for a lot cheaper? And my plan's not 80/month at Sprint, I think it's 63 a month with insurance for my phone through Assurion.

I mean, still a lot of money for a watch you want, but I don't think you'd need to spend quite so much if you didn't want to.

⬐ daviddumon

Could someone enlight me on the EU prices ? US has the 5.8 Xs 64go model listed for $999. Eu price for the same model (french store) is 1159€ ... According to xe.com, current USD/EUR rate is 0.8599, so $999 => 859€. It seems to me that they've applied the inverse rate : 1159*0.8599 = 996. What am I missing there ?

⬐ balent

Taxes and import duties.

⬐ Steko

> What am I missing there ?

It's usually something like the worst exchange rate in the last x months plus VAT.

⬐ daviddumon

Thanks, seems like I forgot to account for VAT in the french price.

⬐ shroom

Tiny note: Their event videos are no longer Safari exclusive. Nice!

⬐ Matthias247

The loss of 3D touch on the Xr seems pretty disappointing. I use that feature quite a lot on my iPhone 8, especially for moving the cursor around in text messages. It seems like the Xr would be a lot less efficient for that, unless they have found another good UX for that.

⬐ 05

Tapping and holding the spacebar moves the cursor in ios12, but selecting text becomes much more awkward without force touch..

⬐ whymsicalburito

This is how apple will lose me as a customer. These giant phones are horrible. All their products are getting progressively shittier. No real Pro laptop, horrendous keyboards (even the new "quieter" ones), borderline unusable phones. What the actual fuck.

⬐ j79

The other day, I read on /r/apple that people were getting surveys regarding their iMac Pro purchases. There was speculation that maybe they were using the feedback for the next Mac Pro upgrade. It got me thinking that it's been THREE years since I personally bought an Apple product. I made me wish that I could personally provide feedback through a survey about why I haven't purchased a new Apple product recently (I'm assuming they have some history of my purchases?)

Since I switched from PCs to Macs, I've purchased (not in order):

PowerBook G3 (Pismo) - My first Apple device that started my love affair PowerBook G4 12" MacBook Pro 12" MacBook Pro 15" Power Mac G5 (with ACD) Mac Pro (with ACD) iPod (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen) iPod Mini (1st, 2nd, 3rd gen) iPod Shuffle (1st, 3nd, 4th gen) iPod Touch (forget which gen) iPhone (Original, 3G, 3GS, 4S, 5S, 6S) iPad (Original, iPad 2, iPad Mini, iPad Pro) Apple Watch (3) Apple TV (multiple)

And countless Apple products for family (three or four Mac Minis over the years for parents, iPhones, iPods, etc.)

It's a shame because NOTHING Apple offers is of interest to me. Like you said, I don't want a giant phablet (remember when Apple fans mocked those?? "But I can use my phone with one hand!" we all said mockingly)

I'm not even sure if they're listening to their "pro" customers when it comes to "pro" hardware (or if pro customers are even a demographic Apple wants to cater to?)

Unfortunately, I've started looking at non-Apple devices. (The Lenovo ThinkPad P1 is what I want in a laptop. I'm still not sold on any particular iPhone replacement, yet...) But, nearly 20 years of my life, I've called myself an Apple "fan". So it's tough. I don't know, maybe I'm just not the target demographic =\ I realize I'm just one person (who use to buy Apple products for six other people - all family), so my move from Mac -> PC wouldn't affect Apple's bottom line. But, I'd like to think that there are others out there like us, who are getting fed up with Apple of today.

Sorry for the long rant (that's slightly humblebrag-ish, I don't mean for it to be...)

⬐ rubatuga

A shame new mac models weren't announced.

⬐ heartbreak

The new Mac models (spec bumps, really) were announced a few weeks ago.

⬐ golangnews

Days since an update:

Mac Pro, Mac mini - 1427

MacBook, iMac, MacBook Air - 464

The only thing updated recently was the MacBook Pro (to fix the keyboard).

⬐ MBCook

They also didn’t talk about iPads which we have leaks for. Speculation is we’ll see an October event to cover that stuff.

⬐ mixmastamyk

How have privacy concerns over the facial recognition panned out?

⬐ tomschlick

Everything stays on the device inside the secure enclave just like touch ID did. What concerns are there?

⬐ tinus_hn

What are the privacy concerns?

⬐ MBCook

They all seem to have been made up, just like the Touch ID ones. I’m not aware of anyone figuring out ways to extract your face print or fool it without high resolution 3D scans and expensive fabrication of custom masks.

⬐ demircancelebi

It looked like they intentionally hid the notch in iPhone Xs and iPhone Xs Max during the keynote with the background they chose, maybe to differentiate it from iPhone Xr.

⬐ jpttsn

Maybe it’s because OLED phones do black backgrounds well: next to them LCD phones look their best with colorful backgrounds.

⬐ manigandham

I've owned iphones for 8 years. They are great devices but even with the hardware doubling in speed every year, it still takes just as much time (if not more) to do the same tasks.

Perhaps its a software and bloat issue, but the only noticeable thing improvements have been better pictures and I can read more on a single page-view, but everything else seems exactly the same.

⬐ Splines

iPhone pricing tiers:

- XR $749

- XS $999

- XS Max $1099

Yikes. And that's for the lowest storage available.

⬐ mikestew

Yup, and the lowest tier is 64Gb vs. the next tier at 256Gb. So $DEITY only knows what the phone you'll actually buy will cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this to be the largest gap between tiers yet, with the lowest being four times smaller than the next tier.

EDIT (all prices US): for the big one:

256: $1249

512: $1499

Little one:

256: $1149

512: $1349

R:

128: $799

256: $899

⬐ masklinn

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this to be the largest gap between tiers yet, with the lowest being four times smaller than the next tier.

7 and 8 were the same if not worse.

⬐ gbear605

The iPhone SE, iPhone 7 and iPhone 8 are still going to be for sale, at $349, $449 and $599 respectively. The range is plenty wide.

⬐ ValentineC

Hrm, they seem to have stopped marketing the iPhone SE.

⬐ krzyk

iPhone SE is no longer available in the online apple store (at least in Poland).

⬐ oh_hello

This strategy makes perfect sense, but does come with a psychological component that is difficult to overcome. When you but the 7 or 8 there is a sense you are buying an out of date product as opposed to a new, lower-end product. I'm sure managing the products this way saves a fortune because they are always only working to engineer the latest products and coasting on previous years' work for the cheaper models.

⬐ threatofrain

It's amazing that Apple's watch is now the cheapest cell phone in their new lineup.

⬐ thirdsun

If we ignore the fact that it's a cell phone which requires another cell phone.

⬐ threatofrain

I thought it now comes with independent calling!

⬐ thirdsun

Sure, but an iPhone is still required to set the device up. The watch needs to be paired to an iPhone. While you can use it without the phone after the initial pairing it's still not intended as a stand-alone device for longer periods of time.

⬐ JumpCrisscross

Any notable security improvements?

⬐ oh_hello

There was mention of the secure enclave and FaceID technology being updated, but I was a little distracted. I did hear them declare it the most secure auth in any phone ever or something to that effect.

⬐ rleigh

The only thing I want to hear about is the release of a new Mac Mini. I want a new CI build slave, and I'm not paying for the existing obsolete one.

⬐ torgian

iPhone 5s was the perfect size for me (I guess that's the SE now). But I've been using the iPhone 6s for the past few years and like it. I don't see myself replacing it anytime soon since it works just fine the way it is.

The new phones are pretty damned expensive though. nearly a thousand bucks where I live for the 256gig version of the XR, and the iPhone Excess is a good 1600USD after taxes in my area.

Just too damn expensive.

⬐ johnhenry

Probably not the best place to ask this, but what did Phil Schiller mean by "one trillion operations per photo"?

⬐ celeritascelery

Basic They have dedicated hardware that is used for image processing. They run a trillion operations through this hardware to post process the photo. That sounds insane till you realize that these operations are very small and the hardware is highly parallelized.

⬐ isoprophlex

Everyone must be able to admit: the automated HDR and improved bokeh look pretty hot..!

⬐ lowlevel

Yes, the new cameras and image processing are very impressive.

⬐ celeritascelery

That is the only reason I would consider the xs over the x. Still waiting for reviews to see just how good it actually is.

⬐ vinceguidry

Skipping this round in favor of the Librem 5. If Purism can deliver a usable phone I'll be so happy. Apple has managed to run my digital life from bliss to constant, guarded skepticism, happy to jump off that train.

⬐ None

None

⬐ jghjg

it was very funny how they've hidden the notch with those black images

⬐ jarsin

TLDR: "It's our newest most beautiful ever."

⬐ aklemm

Also in...credible.

⬐ darkhorn

No FM radio? Too bad.

⬐ tosh

How does the iPhone X s max differ from the iPhone X?

⬐ None

None

⬐ rstupek

the screen is .8 diagonal bigger

⬐ tosh

ty, just realized the displays & cpu is different

⬐ singularity2001

I thought all are A12 chips?

⬐ None

None

⬐ masklinn

"Max" is the new "Plus", it designates the larger phone in the lineup. And the X/XS is about the same screen size as the old Plus (slightly larger at 5.8 v 5.5) so the entire lineup was bumped up a screen size.

I expect the yet unannounced 3rd phone in the lineup (apparently "Xr") will be the same screen size as the old regular, in a smaller package, and a replacement of sorts for the SE.

edit: well I was wrong, apparently it sits between the XS and the Max, with completely different capabilities…

⬐ wnissen

Yeah, not sure what is going on with there being no truly hand-sized phone available except the SE. You could fit a much bigger screen in that form factor, it would have a huge (pun intended) impact. Instead you see a bunch of bezel-less phones hanging precariously out of pockets.

⬐ kanishkdudeja

> The iPhone XR will offer an LCD screen with a resolution of 1,792 by 828. This would give it a resolution of around 324 pixels per inch, slightly below the iPhone 4’s 326 ppi.

This is sad.

⬐ read_if_gay_

How so? It has sufficiently high PPI, you won't be able to see individual pixels. Going higher is pointless.

⬐ kanishkdudeja

If going higher is pointless, why does the iPhone XS has a PPI density of 458? They should have stayed at 326 in that case as well.

⬐ celeritascelery

OLED needs higher pixel density to achieve the same level of “sharpness”. That’s why LCD’s can looks as crisp at much lower PPI.

⬐ gmailsyncer

I just bought a Macbook Pro yesterday

⬐ maxleaf

Oh. Good for you. Thanks for letting me know.

⬐ lowlevel

I would return it and get the macbook air before they discontinue it or put the new keyboard in it.

⬐ mixmastamyk

Wish they would target battery life/optimize OS further.

512GB storage, what to do with that? Perhaps long-form video.

Cook wearing white shoes after Labor Day, tsk tsk.

Recommend Ars Technica live blog.

⬐ oh_hello

I'm amazed by the sizing. The SE appears to be gone. This means the smallest device you can buy is the 7/8. Many still find this to be too large. Considering Apple's history of selling older iPhone models at a lower price, it seems like two years from now the bottom of the line will be the Xs and Xr announced today. The smallest lower-end iPhone available at that time would be the Xs which is larger than the 6/6s/7/8. Obviously I have no idea what Apple has planned, but the push to increasingly large devices seems like a bad idea.

⬐ Joeri

I went from a 5.2 inch phone to an SE myself, largely for size reasons. Those big phones are just too cumbersome, even if the screen is nice.

I'm very disappointed they didn't use the edge-to-edge screen ability to reduce the physical size and keep the screen size the same. A 4.7 inch screen in an iPhone X design would be perfect for me. It would be barely bigger than the SE with a much bigger screen.

⬐ ksec

An 19.5 : 9 Screen Body with the same width of iPhone SE would incidentally lead to a 4.7" iPhone Xr. I think it is highly likely we see that next year. Although also likely to cost $649.

⬐ qrbLPHiKpiux

I also recently went to an SE from a 6S. The iPhone Xs costs $1349 for a 512 GB device!

⬐ kartickv

Yes, the 4.7-inch screen is optimal for me, too. Apple should've kept this screen size and made the bezels as small as possible.

This applies to the SE, too -- keep the screen size and makes the bezels smaller.

In a way, the iPhone XS is a step back from even the iPhone 6, because it's bigger.

Apple seems to be doing things arbitrarily nowadays, like Dell and other OEMs that Apple (fans) loved to mock years ago.

⬐ tfandango

I have some younger kids who have the SE models, I like them because they are cheap(er), they work in the apple ecosystem I have, they are small enough for kids to carry around w/o breaking them, and I can easily track everyone. I won't be buying them any of these new ones, either stick to older SEs or purchase cheaper androids for them now.

⬐ lowlevel

If the 128gig SE was $1000 I'de still buy it.

⬐ ppeetteerr

Aren't the new 7's near the same price as the old SE's? You also get something cool with the 7, no breakable home button :)

⬐ retromario

iPhone SE started at $349. iPhone 7 starts at $449, so somewhat more expensive.

⬐ geerlingguy

And a _lot_ larger. 'Reachability' is pretty much required for one-handed use, so it makes using the phone more annoying.

⬐ tfandango

yea. I usually buy them a phone when they head to middle school because communicating with them becomes more important for pickups after school etc. Even the 7 seems a little too big for them, and they are definitely more breakable even with a case (aside from the mechanical button as you mention), more surface area I guess.

I'd love an SE sized super-budget iPhone (for kids).

⬐ topbanana

Much the same story here. Was hoping for an SE 2 for my kids as they're moving up to secondary school and hoped they could keep their iPad game progress. Android ahoy

⬐ em500

What's wrong with the SE1?

⬐ lifeisgood99

It's not sold anymore

⬐ em500

It is, just not from the Apple store.

https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/ "Available at authorized resellers"

⬐ bunderbunder

Translation: "Discontinued, but 3rd-party retailers will keep selling their stock until it runs out."

⬐ em500

So what's wrong with topbanana buying the SE for his kids right now?

⬐ bunderbunder

Nothing, but should probably move fast if the intent is to get a new one.

⬐ untog

For one, it won't be supported anywhere near as long as a device launched today. It would still be getting iOS updates during their entire high school career.

⬐ aczerepinski

I was really hoping for a sweet new SE replacement. I don’t want a big phone but I do need to upgrade my SE’s battery and move on from a 16gb drive. What are my options?

⬐ JansjoFromIkea

Bought a 32GB one myself to get out of that situation, along with the larger battery were the assurances that (second hand) it was probably a year newer than the 16gb (16 and 64 models were year one, 32 and 128 were year two).

⬐ None

None

⬐ jotjotzzz

Aside from the size, I'm more concerned at the prices of phones going over the $1k+ mark as the new normal. Sigh.

⬐ riantogo

I bought last year's iPhone X and it was $999 for the cheaper version + $200 for apple care + $160 for airpods + $20 for case + Taxes.

⬐ ballenf

Probably pointless to argue this, but I really see new iPhones as cheaper than ever given how long I can keep one without feeling left behind.

I have an old 6 that is quite snappy on iOS 12 beta for everything but intensely graphical new games. I really don't expect to replace last year's X for at least 2-3 years. It wasn't that long ago that it was crazy to keep a phone longer than a year.

Now, AppleCare really needs to be extended a year to 4 full years from 3.

⬐ mpg33

I think the iPhone XS is only marginally larger than the 7/8 and has a much larger display.

⬐ ynniv

The size of the display is actually the important measurement for one handed use. My thumb can reach the far corner of the screen on the 8 but not the X.

⬐ mkagenius

There is a thumb extension sold in Japan for such iphones.

⬐ kartickv

That's a good point, and an argument for why the iPhone X should've had the same screen size as the iPhone 8, just with smaller bezels.

Besides, the slightly bigger body of the X (ignoring screen size) makes it slightly less comfortable to hold in my hand.

⬐ mortenjorck

The swipe-based navigation system on the X family actually makes a huge improvement on the old “reachability” feature of the 6/7/8/Plus. Instead of the awkward double-touch-the-home-button-without-pressing gesture to slide the screen down for one-handed use, you can actually just swipe the little home indicator down instead of up and it will do the same thing, only faster.

For some reason, this isn’t enabled by default, but it’s a big enough usability improvement that I would actually consider a large X-family iPhone because of it.

⬐ Apocryphon

Does anyone think they'll make a next-gen SE next year? It could simply be they didn't want to release four phones this year.

⬐ untog

I remember people saying the same last year.

⬐ ragazzina

Then why discontinuing it now?

⬐ phinnaeus

I was looking forward to March this year for a new SE. Then I was looking forward to today. Now I'm looking forward to March again.

⬐ TheSpiceIsLife

The iPhone 8 is still available in a 4.7" screen, right?

That's only marginally larger than the iPhone SE's 4.0" screen.

I use an iPhone SE, but only because it was ~AU$400 cheaper than the 4.7" iPhone 8.

Edit: I'd like to be on the record as having said I think these large screen size phones are, for my use case anyway, ridiculous. I work in a metal fabrication workshop and have to have my phone on me. There's no way a 5.8" phone is going to last more than a month in my pocket.

⬐ beenBoutIT

Apple's adoption of Face ID is a big deal from a design POV. Apple was famous for adopting superior technology early and with Face ID they're adopting inferior technology late.

https://www.apple.com/iphone-xs/face-id/

⬐ zuppy

face id is more relible than touch id. you no longer have to remove gloves, you can open it with wet fingers and it is faster. also, all mu touch id phones started to give more fingerprint recognition fails after 1year+

⬐ chooseaname

I have a 6s and I'm going to get an 8 at the new lower price. That should last me a few more years as phones are "fast enough" now. Hopefully, by the time I need another phone, the bigger is better thing will have passed.

⬐ codesternews

I think the most important reason of having bigger devices is performance vs battery.

You can not extend a smartphone and give feature like OLED, Neural Engine etc without considering affect on the battery.

They want bigger device to solve many those issues. If they release the iPhone SE update they can not compete with other iPhones in terms of feature and performance.

Also it have huge involvement of iOS updates also. When they release iOS update you have to think all the device these updates support else people will make noises.

⬐ michaeljbishop

Small point, but you are assuming the only direction a phone can grow is height and width. Thickness would also allow a larger battery.

⬐ None

None

⬐ NeedMoreTea

I would expect quite the opposite. The bigger the screen the more dramatic the power draw to illuminate all the extra square inches.

That was borne out by my experience with the SE when I first got it, having better battery life than any other smartphone I'd owned.

My plan for now is to hang on to the SE for another couple of years, with battery replacement when it gets too tired.

⬐ heisenbit

This give Apple 2 years time to replace the SE. Actually more one year to research, observe the various markets and to decide and then one year to implement. In any case the button seems to be dead 8-( so any small form factor phone won't be a straight successor of the SE.

The reason I don't totally discount the SE is the effective lowering of prices by Apple in the new line-up. They clearly want to grow on the lower end of the price band now.

⬐ balladeer

One reason I moved to iPhone SE from a 5.5 inch Android one and a half years ago was its size and form factor which among all the options available at the time seemed perfect to me. (The other reason was of course being invested in Mac ecosystem all over)

I would want to go back to stock Android after I retire this SE, but when I look around I don't really see a decent 4 inch stock Android phone either.

⬐ jiveturkey

> seems like a bad idea.

Bad idea for whom, and why? Because of your personal preference for a smaller phone? Clearly, the market doesn't agree. Well TBH, I don't know the market numbers, but surely Apple doesn't cull their lineup of products that are selling well?

⬐ 21

The market has spoken loud and clear since 2010, when Androids bigger than iPhone became popular. iPhone dragged it's feet till 2013/2014 because they didn't want to appear conceding that they were wrong, but eventually they had to buckle.

⬐ ethbro

If you want to push margins, larger devices selling for higher absolute prices are a better option.

Imho, it's harder to convince people a "smartphone" is worth USD $1k+. But a laptop / tablet replacement? That's reasonable(!) compared to a MBP...

Given Apple's build costs don't scale with device size (++screen, +battery, +gpu/mem), selling the same internals in bigger devices for more is a win.

So you continue expanding device size and price until you discover the market boundaries. And unlike Samsung S*/Note, Apple has the ability to say "These are the only form factors this generation, if you want the newest iPhone..."

⬐ None

None

⬐ ken

> Given Apple's build costs don't scale with device size (++screen, +battery, +gpu/mem), selling the same internals in bigger devices for more is a win.

Only if those customers buy the bigger device, and if smaller phones require the latest internals. If these people stick with their older/smaller devices, you've lost a sale. If you can get away with 2-year-old internals in these smaller phones, it could be much cheaper to produce than the latest flagship.

I don't know what Apple's margins are on these devices, but a couple months ago AT&T was offering the current (final) iPhone SE for $50.

> Apple has the ability to say "These are the only form factors this generation, if you want the newest iPhone..."

True, but the SE was never about appealing to users who wanted the newest iPhone.

⬐ scarface74

Apple wouldn't leave money on the table in an effort to save face. It came out in the Apple vs. Samsung lawsuits that they were caught flat footed.

From a technical standpoint, they could have released larger phones before they did. What stopped them is that UIKit and iOS apps were not designed to handle multiple screen sizes or any screen except for the 4 inch iPhone and the 9.7" iPad until iOS 7 and support improved in IOS 8.

⬐ jodrellblank

From a technical standpoint they could, but they didn't because their technology wasn't ready?

So .. they couldn't?

⬐ scarface74

Hardware - they could release bigger phones.

Software - they didn’t have the framework to allow for it.

It would have been like all of the Android phones that copied the notch before the OS was ready.

⬐ untog

There haven't really been many attempts at making small flagship-quality devices in years. Didn't the SE immediately sell out when it was released? I struggle to believe no similar market exists today, but Apple obviously has a easier and more profitable path maintaining the device collection they announced today. I just wish they didn't.

I was thinking about replacing my SE with whatever was announced today, but instead I'll be continuing to use it until it dies/isn't supported any more. Maybe I'm alone on that, I dunno.

⬐ notatoad

"selling out" doesn't mean anything without an actual quantity number. It doesn't even mean apple underestimated demand, because they could have intentionally understocked to get the "iPhone SE sells out in minutes" headlines.

The best clue that the small phone market is actually a small market is to look to android: the smaller phones don't sell particularly well, especially in the premium tiers. The only company really making a go at the small phones is sony, and they're basically failing.

⬐ SiVal

Big phones fit in my pockets and in my wife's purse, but not in my kid's pockets. He chose the SE, because it fit his pockets. He's still growing, so we'll probably be able to postpone getting him a new phone until he's bigger, but it seems an odd choice for Apple to eliminate the most kid-friendly size. I would think that bringing more kids into the controlled theme park that is iOS would matter more than the margins on this particular device, but I guess Apple moves in mysterious ways.

⬐ None

None

⬐ wmeredith

> Didn't the SE immediately sell out when it was released?

Pretty sure no one in this thread knows more about SE sales than the product people at Apple making these decisions.

⬐ komali2

Right, I get this feeling that there's a boardroom of execs out there saying "well, the Samsung Note sold a whole lot of devices, clearly the reason is because it's big!"

Then the release a bunch of only-big iphones, which sell more than the previous generation of iphones, and they go "Aha! We're on to something here!"

Like, there's a ton of reasons that sales of a new gen of iphone could be higher than previous, or that the note sold more than some other iphone model, etc, without having anything to do with physical size of the device.

I for one am absolutely desperate for a galaxy s1 sized device with a headphone jack, long battery life, and reasonable performance, regardless of thickness. I would probably pay 800 dollars for such a device. It's just me here and now but judging from other comments I've seen I bet I'm not alone.

⬐ svachalek

Well, there's 4 generations of phones now that came in two sizes (6, 6S, 7, 8) so I would assume they've got a little more to go on than Samsung's quarterlies.

⬐ heartbreak

You think that product demand is only conducted by putting a product on the market and seeing how well it sells? And you're posting on HN?

Sorry for the snark but damn this trope was stale 4 years ago. Apple has more than enough money to throw at researching whether or not it's worth it to make a particular size phone without first producing said phone.

⬐ komali2

If you knew the top part was snarky, and snarky enough to justify apologizing for, why didn't you just save you the time of writing it and me the time of reading it and thinking "gee thanks asshole"?

Nope, I don't work at Apple, I have no idea how they do market research. They sure do know how to make money, though.

⬐ lowlevel

Yes, they were stock constrained for many months.. infact, I tried to buy one 3 months ago, and they didn't have any in the store. I think they just didn't want to make them...

⬐ kgwgk

You’re not alone! I think I may replace my aging SE with a new SE.

Edit: I was wondering if an Apple Watch / iPod Touch combo could be an option but it seems they don’t play well together.

⬐ giobox

I wonder how much of a factor size was in SE sales; of course some customers clearly chose it with size a primary concern, but I suspect many more bought it because it was a good phone at an attractively low price.

The iPhone 7 still carries the flag for price conscious customers today, even if it is more expensive. The SE was a very unusually strong low end value proposition by Apple standards at 349 dollars for the 32GB handset, and I suspect this _much_ more than size mattered. Cheap small sized Android handsets have never really sold in remotely meaningful numbers in recent years (and Sony made some resonably solid designs), which gives me further pause as to how well "small" as primary feature sells now.

It is definitely a shame for those who did value the SE for its size, but iPhones are unabashedly mass-market devices, and for better or worse bigger appears to sell. I do think an imaginary SE design with the full size screen design of the X with FaceID etc would be a gorgeous looking little device though...

⬐ trixie_

During Steve Jobs

  Rationally sized phones
  No gimmicks
  Few model numbers

After Steve Jobs

  Phablet sized phones
  Gimmicks everywhere (Animoji, AR, etc..)
  Lots of confusing model numbers

Basically Apple has become like every other phone manufacturer. It goes to show how much a good leader at the top of a company matters. I will keep using a SE for the foreseeable future.

  Fits in my hand
  Cheap to self replace screen/battery
  Has a headphone jack

⬐ vbezhenar

Yep. I bought iPhone 8 because I wanted to try force touch and faster CPU. Well, it's a feature I could skip (actually I don't even understand why is it there, long press would work just as well) and iPhone SE size would be more comfortable for me (I came from 4S). I'm using iPhone 8 for a few monthes and it's still very uncomfortable to use for me, it's too huge and I can't reach every screen point with my thumb. Certainly a degraded experience from using a smaller phone. I hope that they'll make something smaller next time I'll change phone.

⬐ wyuenho

Have you tried tabbing the home button lightly twice?

⬐ vbezhenar

I know and it's terrible solution. It oftens gets reset when I'm tapping something (but sometimes it's not), so I have to double-tap again (especially when I want to edit URL in Safari). And anyway reaching any screen point with one hand is vastly superior experience than using workarounds. I've found myself using two hands more and more and that's a step backwards.

May be better UX design would solve that. Any controls should be at the bottom part of the screen. But iOS is not there anyway.

⬐ TomVDB

Once you've become used to positioning the cursor with force touch, you never want to go back.

⬐ wingerlang

This could easily be done in software alone. I had cursor positioning on iOS 5 through jailbreak software.

⬐ j45

I'm not sure what proof there is than phablets are irrational as you've stated.

I got a Note 1 phablet after my iPhone 4 as an experiment. It was an audacious device where Apple had gotten stagnant. While the galaxy note 1 was a premature priduct, the phablet form factor was a constant constant piece, and it nearly ended the use of my iPad. My android phablet remains in my life/because Apple missed the boat on screen sizes and is playing catchup.

The phablet phenomenon is real and a calculated tradeoff.

Phablets have cut into other markets and for most people globally if a movie is the Mir primary computing device, the phablet is more appealing. In the case where summertime doesn't use a phone much, they often have a tablet, laptop, etc.

Not having a headphone jack remains a pain, Bluetooth ear buds need to be at 20 hrs of battery life to get wider adoption.

⬐ randomsearch

Agree, but the iPhone X is damn near perfection, without Steve. Which is admittedly surprising.

⬐ jghjg

are you forgetting the retarded notch?

⬐ None

None

⬐ appleiigs

During Steve: imac, power mac, macbook, macbook pro.

Now... WTF.

⬐ threeseed

More revisionist nonsense. You left out a few models which makes the product lineup almost identical to today:

MacBook Air was released in 2008.

Mac Mini was released in 2010.

⬐ appleiigs

The MacBook Air didn’t overlap with MacBook as it does now.

The Mac Pro didn’t overlap wih the iMac Pro as it does now.

The iphone overlapping 7,8,Xs,Xr.

iPad Pro 10.5 overlap with regular iPad.

⬐ dang

Can you please edit the name-calling out of your comments here? ("revisionist nonsense", "this comment makes no sense"). I appreciate that your comments have gotten less uncivil over the years. Please don't relapse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ threeseed

This comment makes no sense.

Steve Jobs was only alive during the early days of the iPhone where Apple was focused on implementing basic features like 3G. We are in the era where what you call gimmicky features are all that is left.

And customers are asking for bigger phones and more phones at different price points. This myth that Steve Jobs never listened to customers is just that a myth.

⬐ flipgimble

And yet despite your criticism they are selling more devices than during Steve Jobs by a large margin. My iphoneX is by far the most usable and comfortable form factor of a smart phone I’ve used in the past decade. I’m just glad Apple has far better ways to decide on their device strategy than internet hot takes to so reliably and predictably miss the boat.

⬐ ric2b

> And yet despite your criticism they are selling more devices than during Steve Jobs by a large margin.

They seem to be slowly losing market share, though.

⬐ trixie_

Are you sure Apple is selling more devices because of the new direction OR the mobile market is just larger than it was 7 years ago.

⬐ threeseed

What new direction ?

Apple is following the same path they have done since the original iPhone. They have always had models at different price points.

⬐ megy

The new direction they are referring to is clearly the phone size increase.

⬐ djrogers

Which started under Steve Jobs (the 5 was the first bigger screen).

⬐ pdpi

Crucially, though, it had a bigger height but not width.