HN Theater @HNTheaterMonth

⬐ andyidsinga

I found this maddening to watch from a technical perspective - it was beautifully produced, subtitles, video and audio - but it didn't work right in my browser! (latest chrome on win10)

- the audio and subtitles didn't sync

- if I touched the scroll wheel on my mouse it would rapidly generate events that caused the 'next' action

- if I click on next after the audio was complete on one page there was no audio on the next page - just the subtitles.

..so I struggled through it and wondered how this was tested before they pushed it out.

finally, getting to the end - I didn't see anything that actually discussed how people are actually surviving!?

I lived in the USSR in the early 90s while crazy inflation was starting to happen; here are a few strategies people used in those days (in fact I and my family used too). Note that inflation got even crazier after I left - and I'm not sure what other things people did to handle that; but I suspect friends/family/connections continue to be extremely important.

- they kept dollars or other western currency and traded for rubles as close to purchases as possible

- everyone would use private connections with others get access to goods that we're not readily available. didn't seem to be at lot of bartering here - but taking very good care of those connections and reciprocating whenever possible.

- people would grow food at their datcha - and share with their friends and sometimes sell it at local open market / bazaar.

- finally, you take on any work - and I mean any work - to get a bit of extra cash - especially in foreign currency. You're not like "I'm a doctor, I've above doing ______" if someone will pay you to do ______; and you can do it - you probably will.

⬐ RobertRoberts

Unfortunately it worked fine for me, but it was an irritating way to absorb information. I couldn't tell when it was time to click "next", animated scrolling text, full screen video, no thank you...

Next time I see a site format like this, I won't bother, I hope this doesn't turn into a trend.

⬐ amenod

For what is worth, it worked flawlessly for me (FF on Linux).

⬐ andyidsinga

yeah - I'm sure it must work for most - but it was goofey for me and I didn't have the patience to open up inspector and start digging.

⬐ baybal2

>here are a few strategies people used in those days (in fact I and my family used too). Note that inflation got even crazier after I left - and I'm not sure what other things people did to handle that; but I suspect friends/family/connections continue to be extremely important.

In case of my dad things were following

1. Arm yourself

2. Hire other armed people

3. Run as fast as you can to the Far East

4. Be at good terms with all the local seamen, from military ship crews, to Korean fishing cooperative members

5. Laugh at yesterday kings bringing you stacks of Swiss Franks, and golden bricks just to get a bag of flour.

My father still has a brick of pure scandium, and one of indium in his cabinet from the time some military bureaucrat gave them to him for few crates of instant noodles

What played a bad joke at communists was a fact that they were buying loyalty of their military officers with lavish lifestyle and gigantic expense accounts. A two star general could've afforded a lifestyle close to that of a person making 6 digits in USA.

The moment commies were unable to pay for it, and the subjective prestige value of state perks vent below that of owning a foreign made car, the ironclad loyalty vaned in just few months.

There were fun times in Vladivostok

⬐ QasimK

For all the negative comments about the presentation, which I might normally agree with, I liked this format this time. It took a while to load (thank you multi-threading).

I got through it because I treated it like an interactive video with subtitles, which is better than a video. I liked the sound - which, in my iPhone, was muted at the started as my phone was muted, so I didn't even realise there was audio. I liked that I could go forwards and backwards. I liked that I could just read. It fit well on my phone, I don’t know what it looks like on desktop.

Now, getting to the content itself, I found it to be very sad, especially at how the spirit to protest was killed.

⬐ blahblahblogger

Sure, but the risk of this presentation is technology.

The audio cut out for several of the stories halfway through, then I was just reading the subtitles as they showed up.

I eventually refreshed the page.

Another story had the audio continue, but the video stopped and froze.

⬐ WrathOfJay

I actually found this to be worth the time. I haven't paid much attention to the situation down there, and seeing it was enlightening.

Onto the content...

I wonder, can someone tell me why there are so many obese people in these video clips, if food is so hard to come by?

Why does there seem to be so many people sitting around? Surely with so much manpower available, there are way to make them productive on a large scale?

⬐ peterlk

> Why does there seem to be so many people sitting around?

The fundamental problem with corruption, and the reason that corrupt dictatorships do not work in practice is that people need to be able to keep the things they produce. If, say, you are hungry, you might start a community garden to feed yourself and your neighbors. However, you can only feed yourself if men with guns don't decide that the garden is actually theirs. If you expand this system out to every facet of society, then there's no point in anyone helping anyone else because any public good is sucked up by corrupt people who claim it for themselves. Everyone must get by on less than is worth stealing, or they have to do it in secret.

⬐ dragonwriter

> The fundamental problem with corruption, and the reason that corrupt dictatorships do not work in practice

Corrupt dictatorships do work in practice.

They don't work for the common people, but then that's kind of not the point of a corrupt dictatorship.

⬐ jdietrich

According to The Economist, the average Venezuelan has lost 19lbs; more than half of children are either malnourished or at risk of malnutrition.

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2017/03/31/venezuela-...

Univision reports that 57% of Venezuelans have gone hungry to feed their children.

https://www.univision.com/univision-news/latin-america/hungr...

The situation in Venezuela is clearly grave.

⬐ um_ya

Socialism and lack of economic freedom is ACTUALLY killing children. Too bad nobody talks about it.

⬐ admax88q

Food is cheap, but nutrition is expensive.

In many ways obesity is a symptom of malnutrition. When money is tight the cheapest foods available are little more than starch and/or sugar, they lack the any significant amount of nutrients, causing you to have hard to ignore cravings for more food.

⬐ hutzlibu

"Why does there seem to be so many people sitting around? Surely with so much manpower available, there are way to make them productive on a large scale?"

Yeah well, how to organize society? Let it organize on their own, free market, etc. - or organize it from top with commands.

In theory we have the first and they have the latter. But it is never that black and white.

Even if some try to paint it like that. And I doubt that there are really starving, "just" that it is hard to get meat for example. Only the very basics. So you still can get fat with rice and beans, but still suffer from malnutrition.

.. and "Revolutionary Kellogg's" ... I found quite hillarious.

⬐ lentil_soup

>> Why does there seem to be so many people sitting around?

Most of the people you see sitting around in the video are actually queuing for food. There's a huge shortage of food and you have to queue for hours hoping there's something left in the market when it's your turn to go in.

⬐ yourapostasy

> ...why there are so many obese people in these video clips, if food is so hard to come by?

This is generally the earlier stages of such a crisis; as the timeline extends, the caloric restriction will gradually chip away at the obesity, but it takes several years as most of these food scarcity crises are not zero calories per day average, but severely restricted, like maybe half TDEE. Fat is an extraordinarily dense caloric storage medium, so shedding obesity can take longer than most people anticipate at that rate. Most first world HN readers who have 18%+ body fat can eat zero calories for a month and not suffer long-term adverse effects, as long as they responsibly observe refeeding syndrome cautions, and a lot of body fat can leap right back on after the fast.

> Why does there seem to be so many people sitting around? Surely with so much manpower available, there are way to make them productive on a large scale?

Generally this happens when the population still somewhat expects the old status quo to somehow re-emerge, partly because they don't know any better. You usually don't see local currencies, co-ops, etc. self-organize until the knowledge is spread to the right individuals who are fed up enough with the crisis to take the initiative to change.

This knowledge gap is where the Internet can help. A DIY kit for those segments of the population left behind by capital owners, to implement autarky where it makes sense, minimize autarky externalities and adverse positive feedback loops where possible, and interface with the external currency where sensible and practical. Perhaps building tech stacks like local cryptocurrencies, payment systems, co-op logistical coordination (think ERP for co-ops), etc., that can be stood up within days of a community deciding to disconnect by firing up free tier cloud instances, and optionally, tech stacks/procedures for re-integration should they decide to do so later. Ideally, these stacks are auto-maintaining and administering, eliminating the need for a staff of administrators or bureaucracy until the locality that disconnects reaches about 20,000.

Open source blueprints for building automated chicken coops that start from basic designs and slowly let adopters build into fully-integrated vermi-, aqua-, humanure-culture reactors, outputting valuable proteins for the cost of sweat equity, mostly scavanged junk, and modest purchases from hardware stores, then time, bacteria, air, soil, rain, and solar thermal energy. DIY preventative medical procedures, basic first-aid equipment, etc. DIY food forestry, which can be started with machetes and shovels initially. DIY styrofoam and plastics recycling, into insulation and feedstock to create community-wide goods like cups/plates/etc. while continuously improving energy efficiency from discarded goods. The challenge is to go as low-tech and scavenging as much as possible, leveraging high-tech knowledge, then get that information into the hands of people in the form of actionable first steps to encourage them to take a small risk and build upon initial successes, and get them out of the mentality of a currency-based exchange as the current system has failed them and won't materially help them anytime in the foreseeable future.

⬐ AlexCoventry

> A DIY kit for those segments of the population left behind by capital owners

Anyone working on something like this?

⬐ yourapostasy

Yes, but not in a systematic manner. The information is mostly out there, but very scattered. You have to already be aware that this is even a possibility to pursue it over the web.

For example, there are forums who talk about how to deliberately manage property valuations downwards to decrease the property tax burden, but they aren't connected to forums that talk about ditching your decorative lawn for a food forest as part of managing property taxes lower, or how to dismantle an HOA's rules against a food forest, or how to negotiate with property tax assessment jurisdiction representatives for services that really matter, etc. It is all "intertwingled" as one wit used to like to say, which is what makes the solutions in each locality highly individualized yet able to share commonalities.

Most people are overwhelmed when their currency and/or economic order fails them (those systems don't have to fail outright for alternatives to become viable actions, just fail enough for an individual). We don't necessarily need a single one-stop shop for them, just a marketing brand that raises awareness the alternative is even possible could be sufficient. Like Tiny Homes or vandwellers for millenials coping with real estate asset overvaluation, and now spreading to other generations. Just a recognition that there are nearly endless entry points, and people can start very small and iterate their way up.

If enough people reach for alternatives when capitalism in its current form doesn't serve them, then market forces will re-shape capitalism into a form that better serves those people, or capitalism will be replaced by a more efficient exchange tool that people find by iterating towards.

⬐ skywhopper

What do you propose to "make them productive"?

⬐ a3n

> I wonder, can someone tell me why there are so many obese people in these video clips, if food is so hard to come by?

If those people are alive (as they observably are), then logically they are getting food.

When you're poor, you generally can only afford low quality food. Low quality food is bad for your health, resulting in many problems including obesity and diabetes.

Low quality food is generally processed grain. It's cheap to make and cheap to keep "fresh," which is why we have so much of it in the US. Think high fructose corn syrup, and almost anything that comes in a box, and do the thought experiment across the food chain from the farm, through manufacturing and distribution, to consumption and the doctor's office.

When you see a population of obese people, don't think that their food problem is solved; realize that the food they have practical access to is a problem. (And yes, many rich people in rich countries are obese and have a choice, but many of those obese people are poor and do not, and we're not talking about a rich country at the moment.)

⬐ cimmanom

Additionally, consuming mostly processed grain leads to micronutrient deficiencies, which can in turn cause food cravings that are extremely difficult to resist -- causing people to overeat the food that is available.

⬐ misterbwong

I'm not actually a fan this format but I like the fact that they actually tried it. NYT seems like one of the few old media outlets embracing new technologies.

Trying out new formats, experimenting with different media types, and trying new things in general is what's going to push traditional media companies forward. Not pumping more and more intrusive ads.

⬐ owlninja

I agree, it is not that bad. HN is a grumpy bunch who wants everything to be a text file and every millisecond of loading is precious time wasted.

⬐ tomc1985

No, we're purists, and we prefer our information undiluted.

⬐ mortenjorck

I’m always a little amused and disappointed when I read a really enjoyable long-form piece, with a lot of local color and literary detail, and some of the top comments on HN are to the effect of “the author kept meandering for most of it and didn’t get to the point until the end.” It’s as if reading is only a delivery method for information, and never something to be enjoyed on its own.

⬐ tigershark

Inflation in Venezuela is over 25k%. People are jailed during demonstrations when they are not shot in cold blood. Children are dying of malnutrition. But for everyone on HN the biggest problem is the article format. Utterly and completely unbelievable...

⬐ ken

You typed 24 words of plain text and painted a picture of the situation in Venezuela -- how hard was that?

We're not talking about the font-family being unfashionable. This NYTimes page simply doesn't work (i.e., let me view its content) for me here on the latest version of a major web browser. This is a big, mature organization whose purpose is telling stories about the world, and it's failing at that.

By attempting to publish using cool web technologies that don't always work (apparently), they made the story about their medium, not their message. In the Scott McCloud system, they chose to emphasize step 6 (Surface) rather than step 5 (Craft). That's a perfectly valid artistic choice to make but they can't complain when people focus on that.

⬐ russdpale

Well I mean honestly I couldn't even watch it. It kept repeating and freezing. Classic case of pushing a browser where it shouldn't go. I don't even see an option for text only.

⬐ csomar

The format is as important. You can only learn about the Venezuela issue if information is transmitted and processed to your brain. The format can affect that in a big way.

⬐ RobertRoberts

>Utterly and completely unbelievable...

I think we all understand that it's terrible down there, but there are many, many places in the world where there is tragedy. And in my own experience, there is, and always has been, tragedies consistently happening in my own local area.

Discussing a tertiary topic does not diminish the the value of the main topic.

And food for thought, maybe if that site hadn't made such a poor technical and artistic/design choices, they would have made more of a difference, and caused more people to get the information correctly. (and certainly would less likely to have detracted the discussions from the main point)

⬐ karlmcguire

I agree that the situation in Venezuela is dire. I would expect an article about the situation would respect that, and rather than presenting it as some cinematic experience it would present the facts in an easily consumed format. This "article" doesn't do that.

⬐ monkeynotes

What, if anything, constructive could you add to help with the problem? Indignation at assumed apathy is something you may experience but if you are truly concerned please help us help.

⬐ turc1656

First world problems, indeed.

That being said, I can't criticize anyone who commented on the article format or method of delivery because as soon as I saw it, I immediately shut the page.

⬐ sodafountan

Couldn't agree more, the article is meant for accessibility, not everyone wants to read a multi-thousand word article and then analyze specific points. The point is Venezuelans are suffering terribly under a socialist dictatorship.

⬐ throwaway413

I wonder if any of the people complaining watch movies, or exclusively just read books. It’s like multiple media formats can’t exist to convey different experiences.

⬐ Fnoord

Your valuable contribution is also exactly zero. You're the pot calling the kettle black.

⬐ throwaway413

Thank you.

⬐ ademup

A large number of people (most?) in the HN community are contributors/authors/creators to web sites such as that linked. I love HN people for their ability to respect content while simultaneously addressing how it is delivered. I believe that ~how~ the message is conveyed is extremely important. If the UI is such that people click 'next' and never get to the content, then all of the breathless exasperation in the world will be directed at the uniformed.

⬐ candiodari

Exactly. The point is to attract attention, and to keep it as long as possible. The starving and exploited Venezuelans are just a tool for that, and in a way just being exploited just that little bit more by these sites, for their own gain.

The discussion here is about the exploitation, not so much about the source of the initial spec of attention to be exploited.

Besides just wait until someone points out which type of politics were at the source of this change.

The same is true of this comment.

⬐ jdpigeon

I love these multi-media style articles. Didn't anyone else feel completely transported when they watched the yuca getting cooked and saw that woman's tears?

Certainly it's not the right choice for every story, but I think it's often better than a typical narrated video piece. Here's another one that I think takes advantage of the format beautifully: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/kinder...

⬐ preinheimer

I found the experience really confusing. I wasn't sure if the segment I was on had ended and I should continue, or if there was a pause in the narration.

A single video would have been much easier to digest.

⬐ jdietrich

>Didn't anyone else feel completely transported when they watched the yuca getting cooked and saw that woman's tears?

I felt an intense pang of shame as my mouse hovered over the "next" button.

⬐ jbb67

Got about 15 seconds into this before deciding life was too short

⬐ catchmeifyoucan

Agreed. Closed it two seconds into the second loading screen

⬐ tw1010

I loved this format so much. It feels like some of the people who are complaining are acting as if this is going to replace text somehow, which I hardly think will be the case. There is plenty of room for both formats. I thought this was the perfect middleground between a documentary and an article. Documentaries often feel biased or like they're trying to manipulate the audience or something. Articles, at least to me (though it's a function of how good your imagination is), can sometimes feel a bit too distant from reality. Language is too abstract, too manipulable, and some phrases are too loaded to not be distracting. Short videos with scenes from everyday life, coupled with a slight bit of interactivity (the "next" button) makes it much harder to zone out of (unlike a long-form movie), and to me at least made it much more somehow connected to reality. I definitely feel like I have a much closer and personal understanding of the situation, much more so than I would have gotten with a documentary or an article.

⬐ the_watcher

I wanted to read an article with this headline. Unfortunately, I only got to a slow loading video of someone making a latte before giving up.

⬐ ManFromUranus

I can guarantee that's because the article is light on insight and heavy on emotionality and will almost certainly seek to tug on the heartstrings as it has no real commentary or insight into the situation. It just wants to show you crying babies, women and sad people.

⬐ cgopalan

Who else felt the irony of people complaining about the presentation format when there are human beings suffering from such a crisis? I was moved when I saw the clip of the kids being fed in a soup kitchen.

Not saying you cannot criticize the format, but shouldn't the discussion be more about what actually caused this situation and how it can be remedied or prevented?

⬐ russdpale

You have to be able to watch it to be able to comment on it. I couldn't watch it, even on a decent connection. It stutters, the sound goes out, video freezes..

⬐ mrfredward

The situation is the result of a corrupt and incompetent government, and short of starting a war to overthrow said government I'm not sure what we can do.

We shouldn't miss the humanitarian crisis, but given that the HN community has a lot more influence over UX than foreign governments, the focus on content format isn't irrational.

⬐ cellularmitosis

Well, you could say it is about overall impact. If you turn a bunch of people off with your format, you just reduced your potential impact.

⬐ post_break

This was like all the negatives of a slide show mixed with video and some text. I struggled to make it through.

⬐ detcader

"U.S. Papers Hail Venezuelan Coup as Pro-Democracy Move" - June 2002 - https://fair.org/extra/u-s-papers-hail-venezuelan-coup-as-pr...

⬐ AnimalMuppet

Not as insane as it sounds. When the government in power is dismantling democracy, removing the government in power can in fact be a pro-democracy move. (A coup is a somewhat unusual way to do it, however...)

⬐ wazoox

My thought exactly. This really sounds like a propaganda piece; "it's all Maduro's fault". really, I don't know. I'm not so sure.

⬐ throwaway37585

As a Venezuelan, I'm curious to know what about this article makes you think it's a "propaganda piece".

⬐ detcader

As someone familiar with hasbara units and finding it only economic that such things would operate to defend a rich patron country, I'm curious to know why I should assume this question is posed by a Venezuelan

⬐ throwaway37585

> economic that such things would operate to defend a rich patron country

Economic to defend which country? Based on what evidence?

> I'm curious to know why I should assume this question is posed by a Venezuelan

How do you propose I prove I'm Venezuelan?

In general, you will find that Venezuelans have a much less rosy picture of socialism than the gringos do, and for good reason.

⬐ wazoox

The fact that it's extremely one-sided, about a country well-known for repeated US meddling. For instance see the example of the Kellogg's factory. They present several questionable facts as given: why did Kellogg's leave the country? it's unclear. May it be in part because of US government pressure? not unlikely. Why do they present the takeover of the abandoned factory as something wrong? The owners are gone. In fact, takeover of the factory to provide work to its employees and products to its customers look like the obvious right thing to do.

Maduro and his clique did many things wrong, no doubt. They failed badly at reforming the economy and making it more sustainable. They're corrupt. They probably mismanaged the country. However international sanctions are the direct cause of most of the problems that make the news daily (lack of medicine, food, etc).

⬐ throwaway37585

> The fact that it's extremely one-sided

There's a fucking crisis destroying this country and you're complaining about this article being "extremely one-sided"? Any accurate portrayal about what's going in the country will appear one-sided because the situation is one-sided. You'll be hard-pressed to find anything the government is doing right. That's the extent of their incompetence.

> about a country well-known for repeated US meddling

Ah yes, Maduro's universal scapegoat. Can you point to what "US meddling" you think caused this crisis?

> why did Kellogg's leave the country? it's unclear.

Are you fucking serious? It pulled out of the country because the country is in economic free-fall, and the government is notorious for expropriating companies at a whim. How the government was able to ruin Venezuela's oil industry and is too incompetent to even operate existing infrastructure should be a case study for the world.

> May it be in part because of US government pressure? not unlikely.

Based on what?

Using the abandoned factory isn't the problem. It's what led to that situation that's the problem.

> international sanctions are the direct cause of most of the problems that make the news daily (lack of medicine, food, etc).

Direct cause of most of the problems? What the hell? On what basis do you claim this? Are you even familiar with the factors that led to the current crisis at all?

⬐ arriu

I feel like the authors should have picked either narrated video or text, not both. I couldn't get through this, too painful.

⬐ erikb

I wonder, if you go there can you still buy stuff for USD? E.g. how does the reporter survive there? I can't imagine a journalist would drop to that quality of life he describes just for his job.

⬐ ada1981

Many journalists put themselves in difficult situations to get a story.

Some people have found work that is more than “just a job”.

⬐ probably_wrong

If you have access to USD, you can usually exchange them quite easily - not officially, of course, but you'll find buyers: importers that will get a nice return on them, individuals who want to keep their remaining savings from disappearing, and so on.

⬐ lentil_soup

Given the presentation doesn't actually provide how people survive, these are some "insights" into it:

- Paper money is useless (as seen in the video) so everything is done via bank transfer. This has led to a very fast adoption of internet banking. You want to pay someone, you make them a transfer and show them the transaction.

- There are places where paper money is needed, parking lots. You have to pay 100.000 bolivares in bills of 500. ATMs don't give you enough money to cover that, so you need to ... buy packets of money, for a premium.

- Credit cards can't keep up their limits with the inflation. All the credit cards in a middle class family amount to a few dollars.

- Unusual for a country like Venezuela, some weird sense of trust is now needed. You might go to get a haircut and then make a money transfer from your PC when you get home. No one wants your paper currency.

- Bitcoin has become a common way of sending money from abroad to family in Venezuela. There's people that will buy it in exchange for Bolivares (Venezuelan currency) at a premium. Again, you have to trust them to hold their side of the bargain.

- All of the issues above work while internet and electricity are working, which very often, doesn't. Banking infrastructure is pushed to its limits .

- There's start ups trying to work around these trust and centralized systems using blockchain technology. (https://www.citywallet.net/ - in spanish)

⬐ djschnei

"Revolutionary Cornflakes"... these people are pure evil.

⬐ adreamingsoul

Ehh, I find this experience difficult to read and understand (as someone who embraces Aspbergers). I had to give up trying to read it because I have no idea where I am and if I missed something.

⬐ wdn

The title should replace "Money" with "Currency".

It's the Venezuelan Bolivar is worthless. If you use gold or silver, I am sure they will be more than happy to accept it.

⬐ delecti

That would make for a less catchy title.

Though amusingly by the definition of "money", worthless currency doesn't qualify.

⬐ epistasis

This presentation is a great experiment, but it's just that, an experiment in presentation. It should never have been released to the general public, just to UI or web dev forums in order for them to learn from.

I think that human computer interaction has taken massive steps back from the 90s. That, or I'm getting old. Could be both too.

Aside: some great content here though. so many beautiful shots of the country. And some brief text that gave a tiny bit of color.

⬐ jonknee

The NYT has plenty of text content on Venezuela if you are so bothered by this... I for one love experimentation and pushing the envelope.

⬐ sandworm101

The biggest step back happened after we started describing the "human-computer interaction". I don't want an interaction. I'm talking to a machine, not a person. This isn't a two-way conversation. If I wanted to see transitions between slides and text fed to me piecemeal, I'd watch a TV report on the issue. This article is like watching that TV report but also having to click an arrow every ten seconds to prove I'm still paying attention. I got through maybe six slides before giving up.

⬐ danharaj

> I'm talking to a machine, not a person. This isn't a two-way conversation.

I guess you operate your computer with no output devices?

⬐ sandworm101

I do, but I am the master in the computer-human or website-human relationship. If I want to read faster, I tell the machine to move faster and it does. When I machine tells me that I am moving too quickly or two slowly and demands that I alter my behavior ... the human does not take orders from the machine. They work for us.

⬐ oftenwrong

I would have preferred something simple, like this:

http://output.jsbin.com/gacizibika/1

Text interspersed with img and video.

⬐ csomar

The format is not bad. I think what made the experience a bit bad for me is the slow Internet connection. It would help if the presentation force you to wait until everything is loaded.

Now back to complaining about the content: It is very light on details. I'm very interested in the Venezuela crisis but this gives practically no numbers and thus no idea about how bad the situation is.

⬐ None

None

⬐ baybal2

An excellent read on economics of "dead economies," and why would one give a gold bar for a piece of bread is "Necroeconomics" by V. Papava

https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/0306829021044...

⬐ pascalxus

I think it's great that this is being publicized and getting attention. It took many economic mis-steps to bring such a country to it knees (printing money, restricting prices with price ceilings, import taxes, etc), I kinda wish they would focus on all the economic errors they've made, so the rest of the world can learn from those mistakes.

⬐ digi_owl

The main error was to be the economy on heavily exporting oil, only for the oil price to tank (Thanks, Saudis).

While being able to heavily export oil, they could heavily import stuff that could help the poorest of the population.

But when the oil price dropped, they were loath to cut back on the support systems. Thus a massive trade deficit developed, and the exchange rate tanked.

While the reasons are different, it is the same "death spiral" as one could witness in Germany between the wars, or in Zimbabwe.

⬐ excalibur

> Last year millions took to the streets last year to protest the mismanaged economy and silencing of the opposition.

If you're going to have a multimedia presentation with polished production and very small amounts of text, you should be aware that it makes proofreading failures seem like a much bigger problem than they would be otherwise.

⬐ StavrosK

Are people there still using the Bolivar? Why haven't they switched to some alternative currency? Wouldn't that solve many of the current problems?

⬐ icebraining

There are probably heavy controls on the import of foreign currencies.

⬐ StavrosK

That makes sense... Cryptocurrencies might have helped there, but with how hard they are to use and with how impossible it would be to actually exchange them to and from fiat, they'd practically be no help at all.

⬐ hamstercat

I don't know if that's still the case, but last year the government set his own rate for bolivar to USD conversion inside the country. Rates which are of course only realistic in fantasy land. The only alternative was the black market, with all it entails.

⬐ narvind

Both form and content are superb. Very moving story. The crisis is real. We have to act now.

What are the best ideas proposed so far that might help them?

⬐ olivermarks

Should have been a video, not a slow to load click through light weight social media snapshots format.

This is a very serious humanitarian and economic problem and the glossy reportage format is too glib and simplistic IMO.

More importantly, what will help is an end to the western siege on their economy because they are a socialist country https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/socialism-blame-ve...

⬐ AnsisMalins

I fucking hate the modern web.

⬐ aspyct

So... the country needs help. How do we help?

⬐ txsh

It’s a self-inflicted wound. You can’t help. They’ll just keep killing themselves.

⬐ AnimalMuppet

I don't think we can.

Any attempt to do so will be resisted by the government as the meddling of the imperialists, to be opposed at all costs. We either have to invade to remove the government by force (and kill a bunch of the army), or we can do very little.

One thing that we might, in other circumstances, do, is to tell Columbia, for example, that any refugees that come over the border we will take, so that they don't need to try to keep them out. But under current political circumstances in the US, even that seems out of reach...

⬐ lisper

This is not an article, it's a movie with subtitles. (It should have a [video] tag.) And it doesn't address how to survive when money is worthless, it just shows some vignettes from Venezuela that illustrate how hard it is to survive when money is worthless.

⬐ oppositelock

Those of us who lived through the fall of communism in Eastern Europe know exactly what it's like to survive when money is worthless, and it's not pretty.

Worthless money doesn't quite destroy the country's infrastructure, so you have water, and electricity, unreliably. It's good to stockpile water.

Shelter will generally be ok. If you've got a place to live, the economy collapsing around you doesn't remove it - the people who own it or run it have their own worries. You can stay where you are. If you have debt, good news, you can sell a pair of shoes and repay your house loan.

Food is harder, since everyone wants it, but worthless currency doesn't entice anyone to transport it. Farmers do ok, as they grow their own food, but getting it to others is more difficult. You will be paying high prices for food in a foreign currency on the black market, but your idiot local government will try to destroy black markets, despite them being the only real access to goods.

This is unlikely in the US, but if you're worried, put a tiny bit of your savings into gold and silver coins, and have a good supply of non-perishable food, and some sort of access to water. The regimes which cause these kinds of problems collapse soon thereafter, so you just have to last it out. Learn useful skills - fixing cars, plumbing, whatever, and you'll be marketable in such a situation. Higher order skills become kind of useless compared to the day-to-day ones needed to keep stuff working.

⬐ None

None

⬐ libeclipse

It was pretty good to be honest, like a video that lets you choose your own pace. It was a bit light on the history though (doesn't seem like that was the point of the piece), so here's a decent production by Vox exploring the crisis in Venezuela in more depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1gUR8wM5vA (Aug 2017)

⬐ ataturk

How to survive when the NY Times is Worthless.

⬐ None

None

⬐ TheCowboy

It's a hybrid article. Mixed media. Interactive web page. The categorization of movie seems to imply some dismissiveness as well.

The article isn't so much an instructional video on how to survive, and could be interpreted as ironic on some level. I don't think the title is beyond critique, but the content addresses how people are surviving by showing people who are surviving, even barely.

If people think conditions in Venezuela are not that bad, and there are people who believe that, then this should give them pause.

⬐ loeg

In what sense is it hybrid or mixed media? It's ordinary video, with subtitles.

⬐ TheCowboy

The usual video content I experience isn't presented this way. It's also not all video and includes still images. Video loops with text overlays as a webpage vs. Youtube embedded video vs. a movie on Netflix with no interaction. Maybe multimedia presentation is a better description.

The presentation style is simply not the same as a movie. You can argue that it's not unique or original, but trying to make that point by dismissing it as a movie seems pedantic.

⬐ loeg

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's essentially a short film documentary that happens to be presented via a webpage.

⬐ lisper

> seems to imply some dismissiveness

Well, yeah, I actually thought it was pretty devoid of content even on its own terms. It spends a significant amount of time showing a barrista making a panda face out of the foam in a latte. It was very pretty, and in a different context I might even have enjoyed watching the craftsmanship, but that was an awful lot of screen time to make the point that coffee gets expensive along with everything else when you have hyperinflation.

⬐ mattlondon

Is there a text version? The "multimedia" presentation is pretty annoying.

⬐ crispyambulance

It's called PHOTOJOURNALISM.

⬐ jstewartmobile

photobarbarism

⬐ ninkendo

Reader view in safari or firefox is what you want. I have it turned on for all websites and haven't looked back.

I honestly don't know how chrome users can use the web nowadays with how bad things have gotten.

⬐ 0xffff2

Reader view doesn't seem very useful for this particular article, which is primarily visual.

⬐ ninkendo

It's very useful to me. I see all of the text in the article with the pictures, sized appropriately between each bit of text.

I just tried without reader view and I got a lot of the same stuff but with needless video taking up the whole screen that I couldn't skip around.

⬐ 0xffff2

Huh. I didn't get any pictures at all in reader view.

⬐ maimeowmeow

I cant watch this at work unless I put on earbuds.

⬐ drb91

Haven’t you heard everything needs picture stories now, if not video? Text is so outmoded.

⬐ SerjEpatoff

So do you believe everything you've heard about?

⬐ trimbo

"Print is dead"

-- Egon Spengler

⬐ ryandrake

I seem to have gotten through it. The amount of actual text content would fit on a single iPhone screen. I don’t think you missed much.

⬐ thomasfedb

As much as I love media-rich reporting, sometimes I just want to scroll and read. Currently on crappy hotel WiFi and this article is to hard to read (watch?) on this connection.

⬐ ManFromUranus

This is what socialism does. This is the outcome. They just pin it all on Maduro like there has ever been any other socialist "utopia" that didn't also turn out like this. Cue the chorus of: But they had good intentions, this isn't real socialism... and on and on. At least the place hasn't gone all kmer rouge on it's people yet, hopefully it never does.

⬐ CptFribble

Separating thousands of children from their families is what capitalism does. That's the outcome. They just pin it all on Trump like there has ever been any other capitalist "utopia" that didn't also turn out like this. Cue the chorus of: But they had good intentions, this isn't real capitalism...and on and on. At least the place hasn't gone all Pinkerton on it's people yet, hopefully it never does.

⬐ MichaelHawaii

Can you walk through your logic please?

⬐ CptFribble

It was satire of the original parent that claimed "socialism" necessarily leads to economic ruin, even though socialism is a broad category containing many different ideas. I was attempting to show the absurdity of blaming specific problems on a broad category of ideas. But now that the parent is flagged, there's only me, shaking my fist at empty space.

⬐ TimTheTinker

Trump != capitalism

Capitalism is:

  - freedom to own property
  - freedom to use or trade property you own
  - freedom to trade services for property or other services

Of course that's not enough to create a viable society. Whatever else you add to the sauce is not capitalism, it's something else.

⬐ dylan-m

Taken too far, capitalism is also private, for-profit prisons, it turns out. How are those going for you?

⬐ TimTheTinker

I hate those too. A lot of government functions should never be outsourced to industry.

⬐ TooBrokeToBeg

> Capitalism is

The items listed have nothing to do with capitalism. More like "things you often find" or "things you wish were true", or more aptly, "things you are told are true, but are misleading". "freedom" to own things is not a freedom nor is it guaranteed in a capitalism economy nor is it true when faced with anything other than a nascent capitalist economy where other actors make the decision of who owns what, beyond your own agency.

I'm not sure you know what capitalism is now.

⬐ TimTheTinker

Capitalism as a label only began to exist in order to draw a distinction between "capitalist" societies and societies where those particular freedoms are denied.

⬐ jstewartmobile

libertarian edition of "we've never achieved true communism"

⬐ TimTheTinker

True communism is impossible without perfect (i.e. morally incorruptible) people.

People who hate on "capitalism" are often (I think) troubled by the behavior of rich/powerful people. I am too. But the solution isn't to remove property rights.

⬐ fallingfrog

I would have to disagree with that, because it's too broad. I would say it is true that you can't have a society with no feedbacks- in other words, consequences. Carrots and sticks. In capitalism, the most important feedback is profit. But profit as the main feedback path has obvious problems- it ignores human suffering and environmental damage and so forth. That's why pure capitalism can only exist as an abstraction. You have to put it within a very carefully designed legal system. Communism is the same way. A society where every product of industry is free, and nobody has to work, is obviously silly. However a communist society with appropriate consequences in place is completely plausible.

⬐ throwaway37585

> a communist society with appropriate consequences in place is completely plausible

Example?

⬐ jstewartmobile

Both are over-abstracted materialist belief systems of how society should function. The new religions.

⬐ throwaway37585

Can you explain your comment?

⬐ jstewartmobile

I don't have a dog in this fight, but when I bring up some pathology of "capitalism" (like planned obsolescence for example) with one of my libertarian friends, they come back with "oh, but we're not working under -true- capitalism", and I'm like "gee, that sounds so familiar"

⬐ throwaway37585

Isn't the difference that, empirically, the more socialist a country becomes, the more its living standards deteriorate, while the more liberal a country becomes, the more its living standards improve?

⬐ jstewartmobile

Western Europe and most of the Anglosphere are very socialistic, and do fairly well by almost every objective measure of a society. Countries like Venezuela and Argentina have been a mess under dictatorship, democracy, "economic liberalism", and "socialism".

Empirically speaking, perhaps it's not what you do, but how you do it?

⬐ TimTheTinker

“Righteousness exalts a nation” regardless of its form of government.

⬐ throwaway37585

> Western Europe and most of the Anglosphere are very socialistic

Literally none of the Western European countries are socialist. They are all market economies. As the Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said:

I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.

Similarly Jeffery Sachs notes:

The eastern countries must reject any lingering ideas about a “third way”, such as a chimerical “market socialism” based on public ownership or worker self-management, and go straight for a western-style market economy...The main debate in economic reform should therefore be about the means of transition, not the ends. Eastern Europe will still argue over the ends: for example, whether to aim for Swedish-style social democracy or Thatcherite liberalism. But that can wait. Sweden and Britain alike have nearly complete private ownership, private financial markets and active labour markets. Eastern Europe today has none of these institutions; for it, the alternative models of Western Europe are almost identical.

> Countries like Venezuela and Argentina have been a mess under... "economic liberalism".

On the contrary. Those countries have fared much better under economic liberalism.

⬐ jstewartmobile

That is just Rasmussen's false opinion.

Even the US, which is usually a poster-child for economic liberalism, is far more of a planned economy than most people think. The housing market lives and dies by fanniemae/freddiemac federal subsidies, mortgage insurance, and lending policies. The healthcare market--given that many ailments and infirmities are ones of old age--is primarily driven by medicare and would go into freefall without it. Many of the higher branches of engineering are, directly or indirectly, dependents of the military industrial complex. The educational complex would shrivel and die without federal loan programs and heavy state subsidies. Every state does not need three dipshit universities and a dozen community colleges, but every state has them.

Even the Republicans know all of this. That is why all of their austerity talk ends in nickel-and-dime cuts to programs that serve the disenfranchised (welfare reform), or children (medicaid), and the debt continues to skyrocket. They know that if they make significant cuts to any of the gravy trains, there will be economic hardship and hell to pay come election time.

As for Argentina, ask someone who went through the 2001 crisis what they think. Menem devoutly followed the free market religion. Didn't stop things from going down the drain.

⬐ throwaway37585

> That is just Rasmussen's false opinion.

Why do you think it's false? I can't fathom why you think Denmark is not a market economy. Have you ever been there? How do you think the Danish economy functions?

> The housing market lives and dies by fanniemae/freddiemac federal subsidies, mortgage insurance, and lending policies.

Which contributed to the subprime mortgage bubble and subsequent financial crisis.

> The healthcare market--given that many ailments and infirmities are ones of old age--is primarily driven by medicare and would go into freefall without it.

What makes you think healthcare would go into "freefall" without Medicare? Medicare is primarily funded by payroll taxes and premiums paid by enrollees. Where did you think this money came from? Thin air?

> Many of the higher branches of engineering are, directly or indirectly, dependents of the military industrial complex.

Ok...

> The educational complex would shrivel and die without federal loan programs and heavy state subsidies.

The U.S. spends a fortune per student relative to other OECD countries, yet has mediocre outcomes. I have no idea why you think education would "shrivel and die" without this wasteful spending, inefficiency, and corruption.

Between 1970 and 2012, the full amount spent by all levels of government on the K–12 education of an individual public school student graduating in any given year, adjusted for inflation, increased by 185%. The average funding by state governments increased by 120% per student. However, scores in mathematics, science and language arts over that same period remained almost unchanged. Multi-year periods in which a state's funding per student declined substantially also appear to have had little effect.

> As for Argentina, ask someone who went through the 2001 crisis what they think.

Can you point to the relevant liberalization policies which you think made the situation worse?

⬐ jstewartmobile

We are all nominally market economies--in the respect that everything gets laundered through the market. Doesn't make us any less socialist.

Typical medicare recipient blows through his entire lifetime contribution in two years. It is propped up through progressive taxation and gobs of public debt. Medicare spending for 2017 was around $700B[0]. US healthcare spending for 2017 was $3.5T[1]. That's roughly 20% of the market. It is totally a socialist program.

As for post-secondary ed, when the whole thing is propped up through state and federal monies, what would happen to that market if it were limited to earned money, and cut off from other peoples' money? Education, the goal, has little to do with it. It's about the direct and indirect employment that comes from it. Even the Republicans aren't going to touch that.

This was Argentina's economic policy prior to the crash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Menem#Economic_policy

Most of these economic theories and belief systems are just cover for raw power. When old people who vote want free healthcare, they're socialists. When old people who vote want fatter dividends and lower inheritance taxes, they're capitalists. All at the same time!

[0] https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/the-facts-on-medica... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-spending/u...

⬐ throwaway37585

> We are all nominally market economies

"Nominally"? What planet do you live on?

The definition of a market economy, in case you're unfamiliar with it, is an economic system in which decisions regarding resource allocation (including investment, production, and distribution) are determined by price signals created by supply and demand. In particular, the factors of production (land, labour, and capital) are guided by production markets, not government diktat. In other words, this is the bulk (greater part, vast majority) of all economic activity.

> Typical medicare recipient blows through his entire lifetime contribution in two years.

If this is true (I don't have a source for this claim), where do you think this money is coming from?

> It is propped up through progressive taxation and gobs of public debt.

Precisely... debt and taxes. Mostly taxes.

> Medicare spending for 2017 was around $700B[0]. US healthcare spending for 2017 was $3.5T[1]. That's roughly 20% of the market. It is totally a socialist program.

You seem to be confused about what socialism is. An economy with a social safety net is not the same as a socialist economy. The fact that Medicare comprises 20% of healthcare spending doesn't make the United States a socialist economy. (This is not even addressing the question of whether it would be better to have a less authoritarian system.)

> As for post-secondary ed, when the whole thing is propped up through state and federal monies, what would happen to that market if it were limited to earned money, and cut off from other peoples' money?

What do you think would happen?

> This was Argentina's economic policy prior to the crash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Menem#Economic_policy

You're dodging the question, so I'll repeat it: Can you point to the relevant liberalization policy which you think made the situation worse?

> Most of these economic theories and belief systems are just cover for raw power.

Quite the contrary. Economic policies have real-world consequences. There are strong theoretical and empirical reasons to believe that some economic policies are better than others. One would have to engage in some intense self-deception to believe that all economic policies are equally effective.

⬐ jstewartmobile

Dude, you need to work on your tone. I'm all for having a discussion on this, but when you get personal and hostile with stuff like "What planet do you live on?" and "You seem to be confused about blah blah blah", nobody's going to bother with you.

⬐ dragonwriter

Neither “socialist” nor “liberal” are qualities that exist on a simple total ordering such that that claim is even coherent, much less accurate, and standard of living measurements tend to be optimized for particular economic structures and not comparable across significantly different economic systems without problems.

⬐ throwaway37585

> such that that claim is even coherent, much less accurate

I don't know where you're getting this idea. There are coherent and accurate ways to measure how liberalized an economy is.

> standard of living measurements tend to be optimized for particular economic structures

They are optimized for measuring human welfare, through measures like access to and quality of food, healthcare, education, life expectancy, incidence of disease, cost of goods and services, infrastructure, etc. That they empirically end up favoring economic liberalism speaks to the effectiveness of the latter.

> not comparable across significantly different economic systems without problems

How so? If the very same country historically fares better under periods of economic liberalism, and worse under periods of economic authoritarianism, how is that not a valid data point for the effectiveness of economic liberalism versus authoritarianism?

⬐ TimTheTinker

My reaction to stuff like that is "regulate it". Big businesses have to be regulated to prevent abuse... nothing wrong with that.

Raise up the lowly (by giving them as much freedom as possible and leveling the field between them and the powerful), bring down the lofty (by regulating them to the extent that their power takes freedom away from the lowly)... that's the ideal economic policy as I see it :)

⬐ jstewartmobile

Sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism#Overview

Tried to post earlier, but got rate-limited for pissing off dang a while back.

⬐ TimTheTinker

Wow, never heard of this before. This is pretty close to where I stand.

Guess I was wrong about the definition of “capitalism”.

⬐ fallingfrog

This is a popular misconception. All societies including feudal ones and modern socialist societies have private property. What capitalism means is that the people who own the places where people work, and the people who do the work, are not the same people. An alternative might be a society in which all the businesses were worker owned; it would still be a free market society, but since the businesses were all owned and controlled by the employees, there would be no stock market and would not be capitalism.

⬐ TimTheTinker

> All societies including feudal ones and modern socialist societies

Who says those weren’t/aren’t capitalist? By my definition they are, to the extent that they meet the criteria.

⬐ ManFromUranus

Please. They are hiding behind their children whom they are using to circumvent the laws by triggering your all too predictable emotional response.

⬐ dang

Please do not use HN for ideological flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

⬐ JackFr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNE0os3f3VY

1-877-JOE 4 OIL

⬐ TimTheTinker

> This is what socialism does.

No, this is what a power-hungry dictator does. But socialism/communism creates an environment where such leaders can easily take power and thrive.

That's why democracy can be so powerful - it often successfully removes the power vacuum that creates dictatorships.

⬐ MichaelHawaii

This is a very good explanation, specifically in regard to "creates an environment" although I'd make a few distinctions.

Democracy and dictatorship are systems of government. Capitalism and socialism/communism are economic systems, intertwined with the former political systems.

The formers are normally decentralized and driven by markets, the latters are centralized and driven by a few politicians.

Venezuela has failed because the government consolidated its power over economics which is fundamental to the application of socio-communist policies, which created the ability to monopolize state control in almost every aspect of its citizens life.

The exception here are countries like Singapore. Singapore and other examples illustrate that at the end of the day, the most efficient economic system is the best to have. Centralized control of small countries may work, but applied to larger populations, land mass, and economy, actual humanitarian crises from real dictators (Stalin, Castro, etc) come about.

⬐ ManFromUranus

Socialism is simply the union of industry and state. We know that church and state is bad, but for some reason industry and state is good? Power corrupts. Thats why you want to limit the power of government, not ALSO give government power over all goods and services and everything that gets made and everyones job. What a recipe for disaster. You never see it coming because they hide behind the rhetoric of universal sufferage, but it instead it all goes to shit. Always, without fail. Every. Single. Time. And yet you people come out of the woodwork in the middle of capitalist prosperity to criticize? Please leave.

⬐ tooltalk

There is no study which supports your belief that democracy or dictatorship is good/bad for economic growth (or political stability).

⬐ TimTheTinker

There have been evil, totalitarian nations with economic growth and political stability. While those are nice to have, some of the more important measures of a country's well-being (in more philosophical terms) are justice, freedom, truth, and moral uprightness (as opposed to corruption). By those measures, we all have a very long way to go :)

⬐ CNJ7654

Lol, I spent way too much time fucking around with noscript before realizing that this page wasn't a text article

⬐ throw1249awy

Opened page. Scrolled down and nothing happened. Please don't submit broken web pages in the future. Please, let's not encourage this sort of web design by linking to it. It's user hostile.

⬐ jefe_

For more of a guide to surviving collapses, this essay about the 2001 Argentine Financial crisis is pure gold. I have printed several copies and read it about once a year:

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2008/10/thoughts-on-urban-surviva...

⬐ maerF0x0

The post talks about the difference between urban vs rural survival . It talks about the kinds of brutality that can happen when help is far away and unlikely to be called. It reminds me of some of the stories found in this documentary: https://youtu.be/a_bDc7FfItk?t=21m09s . There are some brutal descriptions of attacks that happened on farmers.

Note: I haven't finished watching the video and I dont want to endorse it's message, just to point to some peoples' stories about what can happen if attacked in a rural homestead.

⬐ maerF0x0

NB: I finished the movie and ultimately left a thumbsdown. It is informative of how horrible people can be to eachother, but IMO overall a biased documentary that isnt worth anyone's time.

⬐ harias

Thanks for that. It seems safer than I imagined (Schools, theatres, and bars), might have something to do with his financial status though.

⬐ glockenspielen

Thanks for this. I read it years ago and was unable to find it since.

⬐ probably_wrong

Sorry to be the negative one but, as someone who lived through the 2001 economic crisis, I have no idea what this guy is talking about.

He seems to write a lot of survivalist tips, so I would keep that in mind - from a survivalist perspective, all society is at the point of collapse.

⬐ harias

Do you mean to say it was better than he depicts it to be? or is it something else?

⬐ probably_wrong

Yes, I think he's cherry-picking some specific situations to make it seem much more tragic that it was.

For instance,

> Some ate whatever they could; they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved. When it comes to food, cities suck in a crisis.

Sure, some did. They even showed up on the news due to how weird even the idea of eating birds was. But that's the 0.001% - the average citizen reduced their expenses, moved back with their parents, asked their relatives for help, and/or started using the food banks.

> in 2001 half the country went without power for 3 days. Buenos Aires was one big dark grave.

That's straight up BS - there were widespread power outages, but they lasted typically hours, not days. And even though specific neighborhoods had days without power, to call it "a big dark grave" is too much.

> There are absolutely NO kids playing on the sidewalks at all, at any time of the day

There are no kids playing nowadays either, but that's because they are at school (the average school day is longer than it used to be), playing with their cellphones, or (at the time) playing Counter Strike in cyber-cafes with dedicated LANs.

And so on. It also doesn't help that he paints the entire country based on Buenos Aires, a city that has a very strong cultural division to the rest of the country.