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This is patently false.

Martin Berkhan created a very lucrative coaching platform with Intermittent Fasting: https://leangains.com/

Many books have been written on IF for profit:

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A...

https://www.amazon.com/Eat-Stop-Brad-Pilon/dp/177511080X/ref...

And countless others.

⬐ Gatsky

I think there is a distinction to be made. You can explain IF to someone in 5 minutes and they can do it tomorrow. That’s how I heard about it. Nobody owns the idea.

Taking your example, Lean Gains is a niche application for men trying to improve their physique, and it includes exercise and motivational components. This is pretty different to the Atkins diet for example, where the book is the diet, and they don’t really exist independently.

I recently started a keto-style (high fat low carb) diet after reading a book on fasting [0]. I also picked up a ketone/glucose meter out of curiosity. Much as the book describes, fast for about 24-36+ hours and there's a good chance you'll be in ketosis.

After about 36 hours I've consistently measured 1.3-6 mmol/L. Between 48-60 hours I've measured around 4.4-4.6. As I understand it, anything above 0.5 is essentially ketosis. I agree with you in that, at least to me, there is a feeling of when you are in ketosis.

Ketosis is the generation of ketone bodies in the absence of glucose, ketoacidosis it the generation of ketone bodies despite the fact that the bloodstream is flush with glucose. Ketoacidosis is clearly a real concern, however as I understand it it's primarily an issue for type-1 diabetics.

This article feels awfully superficial, but I find the final statement, "maybe not being in ketosis isn’t so bad after all—now just cut back on the saturated fats", to be very reasonable.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A...

I usually go for 48-72 hour water fasts, IF has never done anything for me for some reason. Haven't tried much beyond 80 hours or so, mostly because I get bored of it. https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A... is a pretty decent resource on it.

I recommend this book - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1628600012/ref=dbs_a_def_r... it's written by a doctor specializing in applying fasting.

⬐ surge

He also has several talks and interviews on YouTube worth watching as well. I believe his book, The Obesity Code, is also a good read.

He treats a lot of diabetic patients. I've integrated his stuff into my keto diet and lost a ton of weight.

I believe autophagy doesn't kick in for the first 5 days, so if you want to preserve all muscle mass, that's the window to stay under. Once you go after that, the changes aren't that dramatic either, so you'll recover whatever muscle loss you incur fairly quickly as long as you're fasting while still having fat reserves. Once you're out of those, fasting is a bad idea, in the sense that you will start dying.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A... - another book by Jason Fung that covers water fasting more in depth.

⬐ vlasev

It's not like your body is going to eat its own muscle! It's not that stupid. The muscle loss is due to the normal wear and tear of daily activities. If you train hard during a prolonged fast, it's likely going to lead to more muscle breakdown. And autophagy is not that either. Also, it kicks in much sooner than 5 days.

As for fat reserves, even fairly lean individuals can probably go a week or two without food without breaking down much muscle. 14 days at 2500 calories is merely 10 pounds of fat. Unless you are morbidly skinny, you should have 10-15 pounds of fat ready.

Fasting is great for weight loss and for lowering your insulin resistance, which is now considered by many the main cause of obesity and of course type 2 diabetes. This has been shown by studies.

Some say that fasting activates "autophagy" which has great health benefits, supposedly being great for preventing the remission of cancer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy — but note that I could not find any concrete study or proof of it, this being anecdotal evidence from some clinics that advise their patients to do fasting instead of chemotherapy.

I practice fasting for 36 hours, 3 times per week. Monday, Wednesday and Friday I don't eat or drink anything other than water and coffee. You can go shorter, like one meal per day in some days or longer, e.g. 5 days is easy once you get used to it.

As a tip: eating high fat, low carbs meals before fasting helps. Also if you get dizzy or if you get cramps, you probably have an electrolytes imbalance and you need to stop your fast. If that happens to you, make sure to take salt (sodium) and possibly magnesium supplements. Once I started doing that, the dizziness and the cramps stopped. But document yourself first and consulting a doctor and doing some blood work might be good ideas.

This is a pretty good book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A...

⬐ cageface

There are lots of different carbs with many different metabolic profiles. And there are plenty of people out there living very healthy lives and even reversing heart disease and diabetes on high carb diets provided they are unprocessed whole carbs. Okinawans used to get the vast majority of their calories from sweet potatoes, for example, and were the longest living people in the world.

⬐ com2kid

The Okinawan diet is also famous for being a calorie restricted diet. There is a famous saying there that roughly translates to "eat until you are 80% full".

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_hachi_bun_me

I'm actually surprised that Wikipedia says they consume 1800 calories a day. When I am doing intermittent fasting I am around 1400-1600.

⬐ bad_user

I am not contradicting you, however:

1. the diet of Okinawans is irrelevant because they are not eating the refined carbohydrates that we do and

2. that fasting is easier if you eat high fat, low carbs meals just before is a fact known for thousands of years, because fasting isn't new ... all major religions that practice water fasting allow meat just before a water fast

⬐ PerfectElement

- the diet of Okinawans is irrelevant because they are not eating the refined carbohydrates that we do

I think you missed the point the parent was making. No one is forcing you to eat refined carbohydrates. People conflate carbohydrates with "refined carbohydrates" and end up thinking that eating a bowl of brow rice, lentils and veggies will make you diabetic because "carbs".

⬐ triviatise

they dont keep you full like protein does. Eating high protein moderate fat, low (not zero) carb reduces hunger to nothing for fasting.

⬐ cageface

Many carbohydrates have a higher satiety index than beef does, for example. Potatoes and oats are both more filling than a steak.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/15-incredibly-filling-f...

Legumes are high in carbohydrates and protein and are extremely nutritious and filling.

⬐ GordonS

Sorry, but I very much doubt this - potatoes have a very high glycemic index (sometimes higher than that of straight glucose!), so you will have a blood glucose crash shortly after eating them, causing you to feel hungry.

I have reactive hypoglycemia, and potatoes are something I strongly avoid for this reason (they will cause me to hypo as soon as 30 mins after eating them).

⬐ cageface

Glycemic index and insulin response are two different things. Both can be measured directly in the blood and aren't a matter of opinion or anecdote.

⬐ GordonS

I was responding to your post about satiety, not insulin response?

Eating potatoes causes your blood sugar to rise rapidly. When it falls, it invokes a feeling of hunger. Blood glucose can be measured directly in the blood, and isn't a matter of opinion or anecdote :P

I was suspicious of the results, so I just downloaded the paper that your link refers to - low and behold, it has this at the end:

"This study was supported by a competitive investigator-initiated grant from the US Potato Board"

Well, what a surprise!

⬐ geomark

Depends a lot on the type of rice. A couple of rice varieties have a higher glycemic index than pure glucose. A lot of people where I live are diabetic and don't understand why because they don't eat sweets. But they do eat large amounts of jasimine rice and Thai sticky rice; both have GI > 100.

⬐ 738472527784

OP said brown rice...

⬐ GordonS

Even how much you cook the rice affects it's glycemic index - al dente rice has a lower GI than soft rice (same deal with pasta)

⬐ r_c_a_d

I'm confused. Do you mean you fast for 12 hours on each of Monday, Wednesday and Friday, totalling 36 hours? Or you fast for 36 hours starting on Monday, Wednesday and Friday... which would be all of Monday and half of Tuesday etc?

⬐ bad_user

No, I mean I don't eat anything on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. If you count the hours, that's 36 hours windows, as it includes sleep.

⬐ slackwalker

I see, so as an example, you eat your final meal at 6:00 Sunday night. Nothing Monday. Breakfast at 6:00 on Tuesday. 6:00p Sunday to 6:00a Tuesday is 36 hours.

⬐ None

None

⬐ andreygrehov

Isn't it the same as what he said in "Do you mean you fast for 12 hours on each of Monday, Wednesday and Friday, totalling 36 hours"?

⬐ arcticbull

Sounds like they're fasting 36hx3 = 108h, not 12x3 = 36h.

⬐ infogulch

OP said:

> 36 hours, 3 times per week

⬐ magneticnorth

I believe they mean that they don't eat from, say, 8pm on Sunday night until 8am Tuesday morning (and again covering Wednesday and Friday).

⬐ guru4consulting

He means eating on Saturday,Sunday,Tuesday,Thursday but fasting the whole day on Monday,Wednesday,Friday...

⬐ None

None

⬐ moate

No. It's 36 hours straight of not eating. Think of it like this: You eat dinner at 7 PM, and you go to bed at 11 PM Sunday and wake up at 7 AM. that's 12 hours of not eating. You don't eat anything at all on Monday, and again go to be at 11 PM. You've now fasted 29 hours. You sleep until 7 AM, for a total of 36 hours. You then immediately eat breakfast.

If you sleep for 8 hours and don't snack before bed, you would probably "fast" for 12 hours in a day incidentally

⬐ pbhjpbhj

Snacking before bed is my problem. I miss breakfast, and sometimes lunch; but I sleep better if I'm digesting ... and I sleep badly.

⬐ athenot

> If you sleep for 8 hours and don't snack before bed, you would probably "fast" for 12 hours in a day incidentally

Which is why that next meal is called "break fast".

⬐ mygo

sounds interesting, but I’m the type of person who defaults to scrawny, and if I don’t eat anything 3 days out of the week I’d likely be underweight and look like a stick. And I wouldn’t be able to keep my weight lifting routine.

⬐ mistaken

You have to be careful though; it's easy to get gallstones if you regularly fast and don't flush you're gallbladder with fatty foods afterwards.

⬐ ainiriand

I thought that at least on HN people writing in english would know the difference between 'you`re' and 'your'... I seem to be mistaken.

I am a native spanish speaker by the way.

⬐ istjohn

english -> English

spanish -> Spanish

⬐ lolc

It's possible to know the difference and still make the mistake.

It's possible to write a candid comment and come across as an ass.

It's possible that I'm unable to shut my mouth against better judgement.

⬐ aviv

Your username is highly accurate based on this statement. This is just complete non-sense.

⬐ None

None

⬐ user9182031

It seems like every day somebody has figured out how to beat type 2 diabetes. I just read Proteinaholic by Dr. Garth Davis who advocates a vegan lifestyle (while telling you that carbs are not the enemy) to cure diabetes.

⬐ bad_user

Our metabolism is very complex. But if it's not backed up by studies and science, it doesn't count.

Type 2 diabetes is defined by insulin resistance. The only way to "beat" type 2 diabetes is to lower your insulin resistance and thus to lower your insulin response. At the moment you can only lower your insulin with lifestyle changes that implies fasting + eating a diet that triggers a low insulin response.

The vegan lifestyle is high in carbs. What many people don't understand is that there are only 3 macro-nutrients: proteins, fats and carbs. You cannot do a low carbs diet without at least eggs and diary. And carbs stimulate insulin.

Note that there are clinics that have successfully treated people of diabetes via fasting. Here's one: https://idmprogram.com/

N.B. carbohydrates are not the enemy, but _refined carbohydrates_ are and unfortunately for a type 2 diabetic it's too late to switch to healthy carbs.

Yes, a potato is healthy, however for a diabetic it is basically poison.

⬐ com2kid

There are people doing vegan keto. It is theoretically possible.

I imagine it is the most boring diet in the world though. :)

From what I've heard vegetarian Keto isn't too bad.

I'd worry about getting healthy oils on a vegan keto diet, healthy vegetable oils get expensive very fast. Most keto diets don't pay much attention to fat sources, but while lots of canola oil technically meets the macros, it'd not be healthy at all...

⬐ moate

Point of order: Many nutritionists would disagree with your definition of a macronutrient. If you're talking about bio-energy sources, you're leaving out Alcohol, which is metabolized differently than Carbs. If you're talking "things your body needs in great volume" water, fiber and antioxidants should be on the list.

Sorry, this is just a pet-peeve about how the Fitness/bodybuilding community talk about "macros".

⬐ teekert

Complex carbs (fibers or at least carbohydrates that are slowly digested) do not stimulate insulin production as far as I know. I think it is very important to realize that there are different types of carbohydrates. You need fuel (carbs/sugars), you just don't need them to get rushed into your blood at breakneck speeds requiring massive insulin dosages to bring it back down. You want them supplied slowly and steadily to your blood during the day and night. Which is what happens when your body and your gut microbes slowly degrade complex carbs into smaller constituents, such as sugars.

⬐ camelNotation

There are a lot of ways to look at that, but I think what all these "cures" have in common is that they drastically reduce the amount of sugar in your diet and allow the body to essentially rest and reset its insulin response. I don't think it really matters how you do it as long as you do that.

⬐ cageface

Note that protein also provokes an insulin response. This is why a steak will actually result in more insulin release than a plate of spaghetti.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

⬐ com2kid

I seriously question that satiety index.

I can, quite literally, eat 2000+ calories of potatoes and not be full. I make a damned good loaded baked potato, and good mashed potatoes for that matter. Are they talking about a plain boiled potato with nothing on it or something? (even then, boiled red potatoes are good... :) )

Or oranges for that matter. Give me a 2lb bag of satsuma oranges and I'll give you back an empty bag a short time later.

Listing beef as lower than oranges is incredibly weird to me. Apparently the average satsuma is 4oz, realistically compare two of those tiny mandarin oranges to an 8oz steak, the steak will satiate more and for a longer period of time. No study is needed to prove that.

Unless they were comparing by "equivalent calorie consumption" in which case the chart is useless, but sure, 1 mandarin orange is probably better than 1oz of steak. (~64 calories in 1 mandarin orange, ~77 calories in 1oz of steak).

Trying to make an actual meal out of the oranges would be, naturally, quite pointless, where as the steak scales up to a meal quite well.

And this is why a huge % of nutritional studies are useless for day to day living.

Naturally YMMV and I know people who are satiated off of small portion of high carb foods, but people who can eat a small bowl of ice cream and be full are the minority, with my evidence of that assertion being America's waistline (and the average serving size of ice cream).

⬐ cageface

2000 calories of potatoes is like 15 potatoes. You can really eat that many potatoes in a day?

⬐ com2kid

Not without toppings.

But I can make one hell of a loaded baked potato.

Or cheesy mashed potatoes.

Pretty much no one eats just a regular potato.

Which is where the table falls apart. You can cook up a steak with some salt and pepper, or a good steak with nothing at all on it, and eat it just like that.

A regular boiled potato? Meh.

⬐ cageface

Satiety index is just a measure of how full you are after eating something. It’s not meant to factor in how much you enjoy eating it, which is of course a very subjective thing.

Myself I’d rather eat 15 potatoes than a steak any day. I like them with a lot of herbs and spices which add a lot of other nutrients.

⬐ None

None

⬐ None

None

⬐ Zimahl

> This is why a steak will actually result in more insulin release than a plate of spaghetti.

As the husband of a type-1 diabetic I can assure you this is absolutely wrong. Fats and proteins are practically insignificant to carbohydrates, essentially they are inconsequential when calculating insulin injections.

⬐ cageface

This is a scientifically measured insulin response. It's not somebody's opinion. Note that this is different from blood sugar levels. You'll find the same numbers on every insulin chart.

⬐ InitialLastName

Note that your husband doesn't actually release any insulin. So it's not about calculating appropriate insulin injections, it's about how insulin a normally-functioning body releases in response to eating food.

⬐ GordonS

Sorry, but this is just demonstrably untrue.

I regularly check my blood sugar levels and protein doesn't affect them at all, whereas eating a bowl of spaghetti will raise it a lot.

⬐ bad_user

> This is why a steak will actually result in more insulin release than a plate of spaghetti.

That's bullshit, but yes, proteins do provoke an insulin response, which can be unhealthy with enough proteins. Note however that proteins != fat and fat does not provoke an insulin response.

And yes, for diabetics fat meat is healthier than lean meat.

Also note that fat and proteins keep you satisfied for longer, so you end up eating less meals per day. This is not about calories, but about the insulin response.

If you keep eating, the insulin does not go down.

⬐ cageface

This is a direct measurement of blood insulin levels. It's not somebody's opinion. Complex carbs are extremely satiating and plenty of people have reversed type 2 diabetes eating high carb diets.

⬐ jackhack

Can we please keep YC a civil place without the entirely unnecessary profanity which is pervasive everywhere else?

It's fine to disagree; but do so based on the strength of your argument and facts.

⬐ godshatter

I'm fine living in a world where there are many ways to "beat" type 2 diabetes. Intermittent fasting (I eat one meal a day) has dropped my A1C from 8.9 to 5.5 (probably less, now). I've been doing this for about 15 months so far. My type 2 diabetes is not cured, if I drop off the diet and go back to my old habits my A1C will undoubtedly go right back up. But it's an easy diet to live with, especially since I don't limit myself and can eat whatever I want, though given the choice I'll try to reduce the worst refined carbs.

The high carb / low fat diet isn't one of the ways to beat type 2, though, and it's still the one pushed by many dieticians.

⬐ supernovae

I went vegan for 5 years, my cholesterol kept getting worse in every way.

Now i do keto, and my cholesterol is happy. Diabetes wasn't my direct concern but i find it interesting how eating a ton of eggs every day has improved my balance.

⬐ teekert

Carbohydrates come in many forms, simple ones like sugar make your blood sugar spike and this is widely considered bad (and what leads to diabetes type 2). Complex ones take very long to digest, some can even only be digested by your microbiome, deep in your gut, those carbohydrates make for a consistent, stable, small flow of sugar to the blood. Which is considered a good thing.

Try eating oats (no sugar, just yogurt and fruit for sweetening, don't get tricked into thinking honey or brown sugar is healthy sugar ;) I personally like strawberry or pomegranate but the latter is pretty expensive even in-season). Or try heavy whole wheat bread (with something like peanut-only peanut butter) and see how much longer it takes before you get hungry again, compare it to breakfast cereals or white bread. I really notice the difference. If you like sweet, try backing a cake from oats and banana (and some flour, pancakes of oat and banana are also very nice by the way), perhaps add some nuts as well. Works great for me (results of delayed hunger in the day are immediate, which is motivating). Oats are cheap, bananas generally as well.

⬐ fencepost

It's worth being aware that milk and milk products can actually have a pretty significant amount of sugar in the form of lactose.

"If you're lactose intolerant and looking for yogurt, go Greek. Greek yogurt, which is thicker because much of the whey, the watery part of milk, has been strained out in processing. This also removes much of the lactose. Greek yogurt supplies less than 6.8 grams of lactose per 6-ounce serving, compared to less than 8.5 grams in whole-fat yogurt or 14 grams in non-fat yogurt. Hard cheeses such as cheddar have even less lactose, between 0 to 2 grams per ounce. Milk, in comparison, has approximately 11 grams in one cup." (from https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/can-lactose-intolerant-eat-...)

⬐ S_A_P

Ive recently started doing "mini" fasts combined with a keto diet to shed a few pounds. I usually just eat one meal per day at dinner time. While getting started on it was somewhat difficult after about 7 days I was in the groove and feel like this is a diet/lifestyle that I can maintain indefinitely. My hunger has changed from "IM STARVING FEED ME NOW" when I was eating 3 meals a day on no particular diet, to "hmm I guess I could eat". Energy wise, I do feel a lot better, and Ive shed 25 of the 50 lbs I need to get off of me. I was never much of a sweet eater, so I think Im lucky, as my wife who does have a sweet tooth has struggled eating Keto.

I'm starting to believe that calorie restriction is the key, with carbohydrate restriction playing a role as well.

For context, I'm a T2 diabetic, whose diabetes has "progressed" to the point that I take insulin. I'd recently had to adjust my dose to 100U / day (I only use a once a day, long-acting insulin at the moment).

Then a buddy of mine mentioned a book on fasting[1] and said that some diabetics had had great results from fasting. I ordered the book, but haven't read it yet. But I did start a sort of psuedo-fasting routine of my own design. Basically, I allow myself a normal sized meal, and then for the next 48 hours I an aggregate total of maybe 1000 calories. A typical meal during that time is a thin soup made of chicken broth, jalapeno peppers, banana peppers, cherry peppers, cactus and onion, with some spices thrown in for flavor. Note that jalapeno peppers, banana peppers, and cherry peppers, and cactus share a common trait: extremely low calorie content, and low carbohydrate content.

Anyway, after doing this for about 2 weeks, I can already see a pronounced difference (for the better) in my blood sugar numbers. And that's even after lowering my insulin dose a bit.

I don't know that the protocol I'm using is anything close to what the experts recommend or not. But it definitely seems to be having a positive impact. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this works out long-term. Especially once I can start lifting weights again (I hurt my arm a few weeks ago doing some bench presses and haven't been able to lift for a while). Resistance training has been shown to help with insulin resistance, so I'm hoping the combination of regular lifting and this dietary approach will yield some good results.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A...

The following sources provide some compelling arguments for switching to intermittent fasting for many major systemic health benefits.

These videos by the channel "What I've Learned" are great:

- Fasting vs. Eating Less: What's the Difference? [1]

- Longevity & Why I now eat One Meal a Day [2]

The channel [3] also has many other videos on the topic of nutrition, with similar emphasis.

Also see the excellent and readable book "The Complete Guide to Fasting: Heal Your Body Through Intermittent, Alternate-Day, and Extended Fasting" by Dr Jason Fung and Jimmy Moore [4].

[1] https://youtu.be/APZCfmgzoS0

[2] https://youtu.be/PKfR6bAXr-c

[3] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqYPhGiB9tkShZorfgcL2lA/vid...

[4] https://www.amazon.com/dp/1628600012

The Complete guide to fasting is by far the best book I've read on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-A...