HN Books @HNBooksMonth

The best books of Hacker News.

Hacker News Comments on
Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution

Brent Berlin, Paul Kay · 2 HN comments
HN Books has aggregated all Hacker News stories and comments that mention "Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution" by Brent Berlin, Paul Kay.
View on Amazon [↗]
HN Books may receive an affiliate commission when you make purchases on sites after clicking through links on this page.
Amazon Summary
The work reported in this monograph was begun in the winter of 1967 in a graduate seminar at Berkeley. Many of the basic data were gathered by members of the seminar and the theoretical framework presented here was initially developed in the context of the seminar discussions. Much has been discovered since1969, the date of original publication, regarding the psychophysical and neurophysical determinants of universal, cross-linguistic constraints on the shape of basic color lexicons, and something, albeit less, can now also be said with some confidence regarding the constraining effects of these language-independent processes of color perception and conceptualization on the direction of evolution of basic color term lexicons.
HN Books Rankings

Hacker News Stories and Comments

All the comments and stories posted to Hacker News that reference this book.
An in-depth analysis of basic color terms across languages:

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Color-Terms-Universality-Evolut...

(Noting that different languages do have differing numbers of basic color terms.)

I've been running into this issue since the 1970s as a second-language speaker of Chinese. My wife, a native speaker of Taiwanese (whose parents, like most Taiwanese persons in their generation, were educated in Japanese under the prewar occupation of Taiwan by the Japanese Empire), tends to this day to confuse "green" and "blue" when speaking English. Those colors are both 青 in her mind. [AFTER EDIT, reply to first kind reply below: I mention Japanese that my wife's parents spoke because it was the language focused on in the submitted article, and to note that in their generation no other second language that might have introduced a distinction between green and blue was spoken in the family home. You are correct that historically Chinese also used 青 as a color term with a semantic range including both green and blue from the point of view of an English speaker.]

But another puzzler I encountered as I learned Chinese, first in the United States and then in Taiwan, was the broad range of colors that would be identified as 黃 (traditionally translated "yellow," a term definitely used for the yolk of an egg). One day in Chinese class in Taipei, my teacher, an older (birth decade 1930s) native speaker of Mandarin who grew up in Beijing, referred to the wooden tabletop in our classroom as 黃 in color. Aha! The term 黃 covers the full range of not just yellow, as we refer to yellow in English, but also pretty much the entire range of what English speakers call brown. Of course. Now I understand why the "Yellow River" 黃河 is called that, even though when I have seen it directly the silt in the river made it look brown to my eyes, not yellow. And similarly for referring to grass browning ( 變黃 ) in autumn, as to my English ear, I would not call the color of grass in autumn "yellow" but rather brown.

The book Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Color-Terms-Universality-Evoluti...

was originally published in 1969, and it set the agenda for subsequent studies of how color terms vary across languages. The conclusion (as also related in the blog post kindly submitted here) is that most languages around the world begin with a very basic set of color terms that gradually accumulates more fine distinctions, in a generally invariant order across most world cultures. English has many color terms, but not quite as many BASIC color terms as a few other European languages.

We can see this same kind of process in older terms and phrases in English. What is called "red hair" in English (my late dad had that hair color) would more likely be called "orange hair" today, except that there was no word "orange" in English (that comes from the name of a foreign fruit, after all) at that time, so the word "red" had the full semantic range of today's word "red" and today's word "orange." That's quite comparable to the situation in modern Chinese, where there now are competing, very new, words for "brown" ("[coconut] palm-colored" or "coffee-colored" often being used in actual daily conversation) but many historical phrases in which 黃 ("yellow") is used for colors in the same range.

loxs
I don't know if this is a result of different semantics or biology (actually different colours around here), but:

I live in Bulgaria. Terms for yellow, brown, orange and red are pretty much alike English in their semantic meaning.

Still, the grass during high summer (not autumn) is definitely "yellow" (as the sunflower). So are fields with wheat crops when they mature. And this is nothing alike the "brown" of the tree trunks.

Leafs of the trees become yellow, brown, red or orange in the autumn. All of the respective words are acceptable and used for different species of trees. They are clearly distinguishable. I wonder if this is because of perception or actual ecological differences between here and the place you live :).

yen223
"I've been running into this issue since the 1970s as a second-language speaker of Chinese. My wife, a native speaker of Taiwanese (whose parents, like most Taiwanese persons in their generation, were educated in Japanese under the prewar occupation of Taiwan by the Japanese Empire), tends to this day to confuse "green" and "blue" when speaking English. Those colors are both 青 in her mind."

I don't think this has anything to do with the Japanese. Historical Chinese poems often refer to 青天, ie "green sky". 青 is probably what we would call cyan, since there is another Chinese word for green - 绿.

alxndr
I've also heard that in rare instances, 青 can also mean black.
HN Books is an independent project and is not operated by Y Combinator or Amazon.com.
~ yaj@
;laksdfhjdhksalkfj more things
yahnd.com ~ Privacy Policy ~
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.