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The problem is that the rule makers in high schools are sometimes (often?) incredibly petty people with a very poor understanding of human psychology and communication, not tremendously much empathy for the students, and very little personal consequence when they make a mistake even if that has drastic consequences for the student (and as a result little time spent introspecting about their mistakes). I never got in particularly much trouble, but many of my friends were screwed by minor miscommunication which incompetent adults escalated beyond any reason.

And yes, under the circumstances (assuming the goal is to avoid problems, instead of to aggravate the staff, perform ad-hoc psychology experiments, or the like), any high school student should avoid contradicting the staff in public, start by acquiescing to any request that doesn’t pose an immediate injury risk, disengage quickly and completely and then marshal their parents’ help if there has been any kind of mistake that will affect them academically.

Few teenagers have figured this out though. To any high school rule makers out there, please read How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk, https://amzn.com/1451663889/ and in general, please try to treat the students with basic respect.

⬐ acjohnson55

Having been both a teacher and a student who chafed under the rules, I'd suggest that it's not quite that stark. The rule makers are people trying to maintain a learning environment that works for everybody under their care to make progress. You have to make split-second decisions to keep the dynamic productive, and there's not a lot of margin for error. In a perfect world, you'd have time to negotiate solutions with individual students. But in the real world, you have to negotiate collectively, and there are things you don't have the discretion to negotiate. So, this often takes the form of rules.

It's very much an art to do this effectively, without alienating your students. You have to be consistent, yet flexible. Thorough, yet empathetic. Fair, yet differentiated. It's a web of contradictions.

⬐ jacobolus

There are many amazing teachers and school administrators, and many who are just muddling through doing their best every day. There are also some sadistic jerks, and some who are incredibly bad at communication and problem solving and controlling their own emotions, especially among the lower levels of the administrative staff.

I can understand that dealing with scores of angsty teenagers every day, and especially getting stuck with resolving all of the most intractable disputes, can be trying for even the most patient person. But there are some administrators who escalate every situation brought their direction into an aggressive pissing match. As if the reason some of them stuck with the job is that exercising control over other humans (in however petty or counterproductive a manner) makes them feel powerful.

⬐ acjohnson55

For sure. There's no defending the sadists out there. I just think that even if we got rid of them, we'd still have a lot of issues.

⬐ sjcsjc

Thanks. Just bought that book (qua parent, not teacher)

⬐ icantdrive55

I had a teacher in high school tell a student to go home, after a disagreement.

The kid didn't show up for two days.

On the third day, my teacher went to the kid's house, and asked him to come back. The kid said he dropped out of school. He told my teacher it wasen't his fault, he was planning too.

Well, my teacher was never the same. He went from a enthusiast guy to someone who didn't say too much. He talked about the kid the entire semester. He claimed he went to the kids house, and begged him to give school another chance.

To this day, I think about how one, usually ego driven comment/directive, can affect a person's life. I'm talking about the teacher's life.

I don't know what happened to the student, but I think about the guilt of that teacher, and how he carried it around.

⬐ temp-dude-87844

It's not just kids, is it? This is pretty much the canonical and most self-preserving way of interacting with anyone who has power over you and is in a clear and present situation to apply it: school officials, police officers, appeal adjudicators at companies who you try to turn to if you think there's been some bureaucratic mistake, military personnel of a foreign power in your country for reasons beyond your control, and even an abusive spouse -- much to the dismay of advocates everywhere.

⬐ exelius

I feel a lot of white males don’t understand this. Not out of malice, but simply because the circumstances of their lives don’t put them in these situations as often as say, a black woman.

It really affects the way you interact with the world and vice versa. In general, white men still make the rules, so if you’re different than that in any way, you have to adapt to the rule makers.

⬐ tristor

What does race have to do with this? Your average white male in the US is not a rule maker and suffers under the same arbitrary and often downright unfair consequences as anyone else.

I just watched a white male friend get punished for academic dishonesty because another student cheated off him, despite being able to prove conclusively with logs and other evidence that he had no part in it.

I also just watched another white male friend be discriminated against because of his race in receiving mental healthcare services. This made it necessary for him to change employers and move to another city so he’d have access to the mental healthcare services that up to this point had helped prevent his suicide.

Both decisions were unfair, unkind, and unnecessary, but were arbitrarily decided by a rules maker who had no oversight (a professor and a bureaucrat). In neither case did being white or male help my friends, and in the latter case he was denied limited services specifically because the bureaucracy prioritizes those services for racial minorities.

Seriously stop turning every damn thing into a racial issue with your empirically bullshit identity politics.

⬐ exelius

Thank you for proving my point.

⬐ GavinMcG

The person you're replying to didn't claim that only non-whites or non-males experienced these things. They claimed that white males experience them less frequently.

Your anecdotes are not substantial data, and the data do (empirically!) bear out the claim they were making, at least in many areas.

You're also right, of course, that this has to do with the power structures in place rather than being purely about race or sex. And in that respect, both you and the person you responded to are probably on the same team: you both think the power structures are unfair and ought to be challenged. Maybe focus on that possibility instead of reacting so critically?

In other words, if you're tired of "bullshit identity politics" focus on constructively guiding the conversation towards problematic power dynamics, rather than stomping off just because someone points out that those power dynamics are applied in a way that's disproportionate.

⬐ exelius

Correct, I was only stating that this same meta-game exists. It’s not about identity politics, it’s that white men have made the rules for a very long time. So from the perspective of a white man, it’s an attack on traditional values.

From the perspective of a black woman, it’s trying to claw out the same degree of freedom that the rule makers have while not pissing them off enough to get rebuked (or arrested, or whatever).

I feel the world would generally be a better place if we all understood each other’s point of view better. Sadly, most rulemakers have no interest in this.

⬐ cema

Yes, I think you are right. In this sense, high school prepares children/teens for the real life really well. :-(

Excellent blog post!

And if anyone is looking for the book (like I was), this seems to be a more recent edition (with better availability):

https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/14516638...

Thank you everyone that offered advice and encouragement on this. Here's a few of the top resources that were shared for anyone else in a similar situation:

http://parenting.stackexchange.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Reward...

https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/14516638...

https://www.amazon.com/Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-Overw...

https://www.amazon.com/No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurtu...

https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Brain-Child-Revolutionary-Strat...

https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustra...

https://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Ca...

https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Chil...

⬐ rymohr

https://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-Tog...

1. Career Tools and Manager Tools podcasts. Career advice, interviewing help, resume-building, team interactions, navigating office life/culture, salary negotiation, having your voice heard, and many other topics discussed in a friendly and approachable way. I listen every week. https://www.manager-tools.com/

2. "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk" isn't just for talking to children. Some good advice in here that applies to talking with adults also. http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/145166388...

⬐ sitkack

Related, "How to Speak How to Listen" by Mortimer Adler, http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/169928.How_to_Speak_How_t...

Also, Alan Watts http://www.openculture.com/2014/01/the-zen-teachings-of-alan...

"How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk" - by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

This book has been life-changing with regards to my relationship with my 3-year-old.

It also changed the way I communicate with adults.

http://amzn.com/1451663889

⬐ mrfusion

What kind of things did it change for you? I read it and didn't get that much out of it? My kids didn't seem to respond to the techniques.

Get this book: http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/145166388... Absolutely invaluable.

Also recommended is this book: http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/145166388...