HN Books @HNBooksMonth

If you're managing teams, a tech-lead, a manager, startup founder, or just someone who wants to learn more about owning problems, I can recommend reading or listening to "Extreme Ownership" by Jocko Willink [1] (fmr US Navy Seal)

Compared to other Audiobooks I've listened to, this one is an engaging listen, and teaches good lessons about both team management and owning problems that is practical.

[1] https://www.amazon.com.au/Extreme-Ownership-Jocko-Willink/dp... and https://www.audible.com.au/pd/Extreme-Ownership-Audiobook/B0...

⬐ bob1029

I was told to read this by one of my investors.

I think the central theme of "the buck stops with whomever" is very important to take to heart, but some of the delivery is a bit over the top.

What would be more useful to me is a book that explains in painstaking detail how to inception these concepts into others on a reliable basis.

⬐ wsostt

Thanks for the recommendation. Just purchased the audiobook.

⬐ dvtrn

Anecdote wrapped in a non-sequitur:

It’s kinda funny to me, I had a job once full of leaders and managers who were constantly invoking Jocko, Simon Sinek and other leadership and management tomes and were just as frequently beating their chests for having read the right books on how to lead…

…meanwhile the rank and file at the company were openly (at least in multiple conversations in external chat and text message groups away from the eyes of said managers and leaders) sick of it because the same managers and leaders seemed to predictably and consistently do the exact opposite of whatever they’d gloat about reading from the Jockos and Simons during All Hands Zooms to the peril and resignation of much of the workforce this summer.

I curiously glanced at Glassdoor and chuckled seeing a few reviews bringing this up.

⬐ tonyarkles

I'm going to stand next to you and roll my eyes with you before sharing the other thought :D

I've recently made a transition from a senior-level IC (think ~Principal/Staff level) to leading a small team of primarily fresh grads. While I haven't explicitly mentioned any of the Extreme Ownership stuff to them, I did take a lot of his points to heart when I first listened to the book. I feel like actually using and embodying those principles has worked out really well so far, especially from a lead-by-example perspective.

Ideas like:

- Managing up and down the chain of command. They've seen it in action where I'm taking their ideas and feedback upwards to try to figure out how to line up senior management's plans with the junior folks' good ideas. They do the same thing with me; if there's something missing in what I'm giving them (either an understanding of intent, or some kind of technical resource, or equipment, or whatever), they quickly and consistently let me know about it.

- Owning mistakes. I have fucked up. I publicly admit when I fuck up in meetings with my peers and the broader leadership in the company. If one of my subordinates fucks up, I own that too, along with, if asked, an explanation of how we've modified our processes to mitigate similar mistakes in the future. My subordinates immediately come and tell me when they screw up. It's super refreshing. One of the fresh grads smoked $10,000 worth of electronics by hooking the power supply up wrong. He came and found me while I was on a smoke break to tell me.

- Owning cross-team mistakes, sort of. There are other teams in the company that are notorious for shipping half-baked code or hardware designs. These are peer teams so while I can offer up design/implementation ideas, I have no authority myself to require them to listen to me. Where the issues end up manifesting themselves is during the system integration; the APIs between our stuff generally works, but their side of it has a habit of being flaky. To have overall successful outcomes, we try to "own" this by: a) pushing for early integration smoke testing early, b) pushing very hard for all code to be pushed to Bitbucket early (in which we also lead by example), and c) rolling up our sleeves and doing what we need to do to have a successful outcome (whether this is helping them debug/redesign, or doing code reviews, or whatever). Organizationally, I think my peers and layers above me have a pretty solid understanding of what my team contributes to the overall success.

- Commander's intent. When upper management asks for something, whether or not it makes sense at first blush, I try to dig into the rationale behind it and how it fits into the bigger picture. On the other side of this, I don't just throw tasks or projects at the team; we sit down, I explain how it fits into the bigger picture, how it's likely to evolve based on my understanding of the situation, etc. And in return, they generally do superb work that doesn't really require much rework. While not implementing all of the "maybe happening in the future" features (thank God, that would take forever), the designs and implementations they come up with have the future plans in mind. I don't think we've ever had to scrap a module and rewrite it from scratch, because they design things with just enough flexibility given the bigger context.

- "My Shit Umbrella". There's a lot of behind the scenes chaos that goes on, and I do my damnedest to isolate the members of my team from it so that they can focus on getting their jobs done. If there's a shit storm coming I let them know about it early and we brainstorm ways we can try to prevent it.

- Disagree and Commit. I absolutely understand that my ideas/plans will not always be the direction we go, and I'm ok with that. During the planning stages with my peers and upper management, I will quite vocally express myself if something seems like a bad plan for whatever reason, but ultimately it's not my decision. If the CEO decides to go a direction I disagree with, I set aside my ego and do my damnedest to execute on his plan. The same goes with my team. The shit umbrella isn't 100% impermeable, and when push comes to shove, my team will push back on bad ideas, but if I do decide to pull rank and say "just do it", they roll up their sleeves and do it at full effort. This, along with "Commander's Intent" and other ideas, is very much a lead-by-example thing.

⬐ dvtrn

Yeah no don't get me wrong, I served in the Armed Forces and I like you recently intentionally stepped back from leadership back to being an IC. Decided it's just not for me and I'd much rather not ever do it again, or if I am going to do it, it will be when I start my own business (whenever that happens).

Jocko has a lot of really valuable insights on running a good team and being a good servant leader, as much as I sometimes genuinely loath the co-opting of certain bits of military lingo and phraseology in the corporate world, it can't be ignored that Jocko has some good thoughts

And while I roll my eyes at some of them, I roll my eyes harder when I see leaders acting like varsity braggarts, quoting (often misquoting) the likes of Jocko and Mattis in an attempt to be "inspirational" to the workforce while their consistent and predictable actions make it painfully obvious they either missed the point of the military men they're quoting, or they're deliberately putting on a show.

So to your point, yeah, actually embodying the principles works out really well.

Which is the exact challenge it seems like a lot of the types of leaders who just want to beat the drum and not march with the formation.

⬐ tonyarkles

Yeah, hahaha that's where the eye rolling comes in. When I first read the book I was working at a different company and recommended it pretty broadly as a set of principles that would help us in dealing with a specific frustrating customer and another organization that they had partnered with.

To their credit, I believe the entire C-suite did actually read/listen to the book after I recommended it. And talked the talk quite a bit, but continued things exactly how they had been before.

⬐ scottLobster

“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

Matthew 7:6

Someone who lacks character and won't admit it is not going to be improved simply by making resources available. They'll just integrate those resources into their already flawed character, digging the flaws even deeper.

It's that fun conundrum where those who can best apply the advice often don't need it, and those that need it are incapable of applying it.

⬐ draw_down

I’ve noticed this same dynamic with regard to Rich Hickey’s “Simple made easy”. At the end of the talk he mentions concrete suggestions and examples of simplicity vs complexity. I noticed people who would always bring up this talk would also continue to do the things he mentions as examples of complexity.

Talking the talk and walking the walk will always be two separate things.

⬐ anchochilis

I've never had a manager who "owned" anything, let alone to an "extreme" degree. It's ICs who are responsible for shipping quality work on time, sometimes at the expense of their health and personal lives. And it's ICs who take the heat when projects go off-track.

⬐ dvtrn

I've had a couple who came very close, circumstance and the usual bureaucracy precluded their ownership reaching the top of the 'extreme' spectrum.

Give them credit for even doing as much as they did, to be honest.

⬐ larrymyers

That sucks if that’s your reality. It means you’ve never had a manager that protects their team and sets them up for success.

If my teams are struggling it’s my fault in the eyes of external stakeholders and I own that. If my direct reports cause an issue I expect them to fix it, but that isn’t used as a reason for the failure outside the team.

I think this is an impractical first step, but for the downvoters, executive coaching – including specifically ex-mil coaching – is a real thing that people do and get value from.

If you want to get such experience without sourcing and paying a coach, read Jocko's Extreme Ownership: https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1...

Marc Andreessen called this out as the book he gifts most often, which IMO is a strong positive signal.

I personally found the book a bit difficult, but I think that's a flaw in me more than the book. The person I received it from is someone who lives it much more fully with staggeringly impressive results.

⬐ 8bithero

Hehe, I also recommended the same book in my reply. Definitely, a must read! :p

What do you mean when you say, you "found the book a bit difficult"? As in tedious to read, or difficult to implement?

⬐ RickS

Difficult to implement, by way of being difficult to agree with in some places. It advocates a level of self-blame that feels like it would be effective from a self-motivation perspective but is not necessarily always reflective of reality.

Of course I have responsibility for my reaction and my mindset in situations, but it seems that the book creeps into "taking the blame for everything". Though I get the feeling that fuzziness comes from my worldviews as much as Jocko's.

I've got a background that involves a good amount of shame and anxiety, so I think I have problems with the distinction between feeling "responsible" for situations in the "shepherding" sense, which is what I think Jocko wants, and feeling "culpable" for situations which is what the inner voice of shame freaks out about.

The difference between "culpable" (bad?) and "accountable" (good?) is a very nuanced one, and I haven't been able to fully reconcile those ideas.

It reminds me of this SSC post, about different people needing different things or getting different things from books.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/09/all-debates-are-braver...

It's been a year or so since I read the book. Sounds like I need to revisit it and get some clarity on my stance.

"Extreme Ownership" was popular this year: https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1...

My personal favourite is called /Winning Through Intimidation/ , I think it is much more relevant to our capitalistic and legalistic society than military memoirs or the ancients, as much as I enjoy them. https://www.amazon.com/Winning-through-Intimidation-Victor-B... . It is not prescriptive because it is a bit dated and specific to real estate, but the core ideas are rock solid.

Sounds a lot like the "decentralized command" leadership principle.

https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1...

Since we're talking about Navy Seals on a website about startups and business, I have to recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1...