HN Books @HNBooksMonth

Is it real? Yes.

Did you get the correct diagnosis? Well, no idea how even the best & brightest internet crowd could guess.

Do features of ADHD interact with one's way of life? Hell yeah! It goes both positively (e.g. providing much-needed stimulation) and negatively (modern media & marketing prey on the addiction to dopamine kicks).

Regardless if you have it or not (and since it is a spectrum, the answer is not binary) - try "How To ADHD" YouTube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx13a2-unjE) and the book "Driven to Distraction" (https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizin...). It might help you in understanding yourself.

> As I haven't really worked at big companies, I've always had this nascent feeling that I never really learned "the right way" to do things. I often feel like a "patchwork engineer", learning how things work only sufficiently to make things work in a smaller scale without understanding important big project/organization principles.

What you write reads like a typical ADHD Imposter Syndrom. Why do I bring ADHD? Because you are a jack of all trades[1], experience FOMO, work at startups, and are concerned with not doing things "the proper way". Been there, done that.

There is "Driven to Distraction" book by Hallowell & Ratay (https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizin...), which deals with ADHD in adults. This type of behavior is common. The crucial thing is to accept that one will never be (or should strive for) being a "typical [insert a job here]". So corporations and other well-specified jobs are usually (though not always) bad fits. And there is a lot of strength in that - startups, freelancing, consultants [2].

Furthermore, big companies push this narration that only "things at a scale" matter. I strongly disagree. All startups start from a small scale. And even in big companies, a lot of innovation comes from small, proof-of-concept projects.

[1] The complete phrase is "a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one".

[2] For me, school, studies, even Ph.D. were too standardized. Then I started to shine as a freelance consultant, and now I flourish as a founder. It is good to find one's niche!

⬐ NalNezumi

Thanks for the book recommendation!.

I've often wondered about ADHD but since I know a couple of close friends with serious ADHD, I haven't considered it too much as I'm not comparable to my friends level.

Although, I tried ADHD medication (through friend) and it was eye opening how easy focusing on one task became, and how nondetrimental context switching and parallel scattered thoughts became for focus and anxiety.

⬐ stared

I used to live for two years with my close friend, who has ADHD. Since I were way more organized than him, I assumed I couldn't have ADHD.

Only in the last few years I realized that I have ADHD (thanks for a friend who pointed me to some resources). Yes, including a formal diagnosis. Though this one brought little, except for my parents being mildly annoyed that they cannot keep guilt-tripping for not adhering to their very high standards of tiddiness, punctuality, organization, etc.

I reallly, really wish I had known it ealier. It would save me from a lot of guilt, shame, and approaching things the way that is doomed to failed (the same things could be approached differently).

When it comes to this friend - he is by far a person with the strongest ADHD symptoms above all of my friends with a formal diagnosis.

Medications - I recommend Armodafinil. Though, I would argue that for ADHD the most important factor is not with getting more productive with boring tasks, but finding the right environment (that provides a lot of dopamine).

I have a similar thing - too easy to generate an idea, too hard to move them forward. Some die after opening a code editor, some half an hour later.

First and foremost - if it is your style, try focusing on short projects - something that can be done in a few hours. But once you decide, make a rule that for 3 hours you stick for it.

For anything longer that one day, I try to find collaborators (otherwise it is impossible). Importantly, they do not even need to touch the same parts of code - it is enough that I get some stimuli from time to time. Even for things that are day long, I try to move checkpoint-by-checkpoint, to have a sense of completion.

...

In general, I really recommend diving in materials on ADHD, especially "Driven to Distraction" https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizin..., this attention-jumping may be a symptom of larger issues.

Another thing that is worth nvestigating - WHY do you quit? Is it like that there are too many ideas? Or maybe being afraid of failure. (Vide perfectionism & procrastination.)

On the other hand, I strongly object to some pieces of advice found in the thread, in the line of "if you cannot sustain attention, it means it is not worth it". Well, it might be true for the neurotypical population, but certainly isn't for AD(H)D folks.

Read "Driven to distraction" https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizin..., you may resonate with some of these points (even if you don't experience a full-blown ADHD).

In my case, well, if something really needs to be regular, the only way to go is external pressure (external deadlines, people meeting at a given time with the goal to learn) and bringing some intensity (instead of 1h learning, a day focused on that).

And read "Driven to Distraction", seriously.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307743152/

I humbly submit that many folks "driven by distraction" may have an attention deficit disorder. The creative sorts described in the article strike me as people with AD/HD.

"Driven to Distraction" by Drs. Hallowell and Ratey [0] changed my life. The big moment for me was learning that AD/HD doesn't mean that you can't pay attention ... it's that you have little conscious control over where your attention goes unless the novelty factor is high.

Seriously. Changed my life.

[0]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307743152/

⬐ Retra

It's not really a disorder if it doesn't cause problems.

⬐ spdustin

It caused problems until I sought treatment.

The fact that this has been going on for years, and that you feel the procrastination is holding you back from your full potential does sound like it could be ADHD, as others have mentioned. Also, ADHD tends to run in families. So if your dad is the same way...

Most people associate ADHD with kids who struggle in school. But highly intelligent people can have it too. It still holds them back from reaching their potential, it's just that their potential is much greater.

Here are some things to ask yourself:

* Do you also procrastinate non-work things such as buying gifts, paying bills, calling people back?

* What is your home like: Do you have a lot of half-finished projects, "piles", or chores that never get finished?

* Are you always running late because you are busy doing other things, or underestimate what you need to do to get out the door and get to your destination?

* Do people tell you that you frequently interrupt others when they are talking?

* Would you describe yourself as a risk taker and more prone to high adrenaline activities? How the friends you keep?

* Are you only able to focus with the help of caffeine, guarana (eg, Vitamin Water Energy), or other energy drinks?

* Do you use nicotine to relax or be more focused? (If so, please stop and see a doctor.)

* Do you use alcohol, not to get drunk or for the drink itself, but as a way to unwind or slow down at the end of the day?

This is a good book: http://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizing..., which reminds me of another question:

* Do you buy/start a lot of books, but rarely seem to finish them?

Read enough of the book to see if this resonates with you. If it does, the next step would be to talk to (a) your doctor if you have one, or (b) find a psychiatrist in your area who specializes in ADHD. The book can help you find resources.

Edit: Just to be clear, this list is NOT meant to be diagnostic. Although I happen to have an MD, I am NOT a practicing physician no one should assume they have ADHD based on any list like this. I would only say that if many of these things hold overwhelmingly true for the OP, then it might be worth learning more about ADHD and finding a professional to begin a conversation.

Yes, ADHD and meds sparks a lot of cynicism in some people. However, one reason I recommended that book is that the authors present a balanced approach to meds. One of the authors has ADHD, but doesn't find that meds make much of a difference for him (they reportedly are ineffective for 25% of adults with ADHD). But they have helped many of his patients and his own son.

⬐ daat418

First thing that occurred to me while reading OP's post.

Your symptom list is accurate. I'm ADHD and can account for all of these traits, save for alcohol abuse (I dislike alcohol in general and only typically drink Scotch, on occasion, and socially drink with co-workers).

I'm 26 years old. I started my career in computing doing tech support. For at least a decade, I've been aspiring toward this ideal of "becoming a programmer".

What worked for years was convincing myself that I still had plenty of time and my lack of progress could be attributed to [excused by] my upbringing. I grew up in South Africa and was forced into the role of "man of the household" from 14 onwards. Started working full-time at age 15 (at an internet cafe, where I discovered some new vices called "starcraft" and "counter-strike").

I did not go to high-school. All that I am and all that I know is a product only of self-guided interest and study. My little job at the internet cafe granted me the gift of access to the internet after hours. After hour study sessions led me into a career in support and IT beginning at age 16.

Fast-forward 10 years and I'm in, essentially, the same position I was in at 16. I'm still in support, making a pitiable salary. I'm still struggling to manage basic essentials (chores, paying bills on time, getting to work on time, study, motivation), addicted to computer games and in a relationship with someone that I cannot stand.

What ADHD does that's so evil is that it both incapacitates you (unless you have a gun to your head - hence why I was able to pick up IT skills on the job) and blurs your sense of "real-time". The moment you allow yourself to baulk, procrastinate and so on, you essentially box yourself in more and more.

Recently I started amphetamine treatment. So far, it has had a fundamental impact on all aspects of my life. I've picked up SICP and I've started my journey. It's no miracle drug and I am struggling at every turn, but it had made focus-management easier. If you find yourself nodding at the symptoms list get diagnosed as soon as possible.

⬐ Samuel_Michon

It could fit a number of disorders. The reason we’re looking at it as a disorder is because he indicates it’s a problem for him. I’d say that most people could be pegged in a DSM box some way or another, what matters is whether you view it as a problem and if you can deal with it on your own or need ‘professional help’.

I recognize a lot of what OP wrote and I’ve been working on it myself. I wasn't diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, but I was diagnosed with Asperger's (later in life, it wasn't even in the DSM when I was growing up). That diagnosis alone hasn't done much for me, psychologists don't have any clear-cut solutions for it, you have to work on it yourself. I don't think it's much different for people with ADD/ADHD, unless you like taking all kinds of medication with uncertain (side)effects.

Merlin Mann is taking meds for his ADD nowadays, but from what I can tell, he was working at it like a champ before that. 43folders probably couldn't have been made by anyone else, and personally, I love Merlin’s fast-talking meandering ways. Roderick on the Line and You Look Nice Today are my favorite podcasts of all time.

⬐ jmagoon

Is it odd that this sounds like normal human behavior to me?

⬐ gcb0

No. He just described disinterest and or boredom.

But the med industry will sell you a drug for that.

If you are bored to the point of looking at cat pictures 7h day instead of working for 130k/y at 21, just leave that shithole and go work with a decent team for 80k. It will have a much better outcome for your future.

⬐ TheZenPsycho

Nope. Pathologising the normal range of human behavior is a popular activity of neurotic western privileged people. Or whatever the mental illness that's trending at the moment.

⬐ daat418

Another favourite past-time of Western-privileged-folks: waxing poetic about subject matter they have no acquaintance with outside of internet articles and forum comments.

Regardless of contrasts with "more serious" psychological or physical illness, ADHD is debilitating without treatment and destroys the suffer's quality of life.

⬐ TheZenPsycho

My aim was not to devalue the suffering of people who have ADHD. My aim was to make fun of armchair internet psychiatrists.

⬐ daat418

Apologies for being reactionary, then.

⬐ skue

Before I went to med school, I was similarly skeptical about the med/pharma industry. But like the global warming debate, once you understand the science, you begin to realize how facile the conspiracy theories are.

Here's the science behind ADHD: Functional MRI allows us to image actual brain activity. And there are clear differences between the brains of those diagnosed with ADHD and those diagnosed without (and yes, they do these studies blind, so researchers can't be biased).

And more recently they have found that stimulants such as methylphenidate (aka Ritalin) and others actually reverse these changes. Here is a recent study, plus a metareview (which compared several such studies):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23247506 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23660970

Of course, we could still have an interesting philosophical discussion about what we label a medical condition and what are variations of normal that nevertheless have a biological basis. Clearly, ADHD is not on par with debilitating psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia or a bipolar manic episode.

But ADHD can cause functional impairment in school, jobs, and personal relationships; it can lead to decreased happiness and satisfaction in life (and not only for the person affected, but also their families, partners, and colleagues); there are clear neurophysiological differences underlying it; and we have treatments that can make an important difference. So why not use them?

And as for the big drug companies? Most of the ADHD drugs are generic these days, so they don't profit.

⬐ TheZenPsycho

Look, I am not disputing that ADHD is a very real thing.

What I am being sarcastic about, is this completely unrelated thing that people on the internet do, this game of "Guess the mental illness", which usually isn't very helpful.

⬐ PaulFreund

I think the truth lies in between. The conspiracy theories are not completely off regarding that about half of the authors of the ADD/ADHD sections of the DSM-IV were paid by pharma companies [1].

That does not change the fact that ADHD is a dysfunction of the brain where the regulation of Dopamin and/or Serotonin does not meet the requirements of the environment.

I think it rather tells us something about the diagnosis which isn't handled very carefully in many cases, especially for children. A proper long term validation of symptoms and evaluation of treatment methods should be a starting point, not a standardized set of questions and a recipe at the end of the session. Behavioral therapy can sometimes be as effective as drug use but it is not even considered most of the time.

Without extended knowledge of the topic the public almost has to think that ADHD is a fraud. It's nothing one can see as a broken leg and the media only reports about Fraud and instant subscriptions to children that might not even have ADHD. Sometimes even MD's claim it's not a real disease because of these reasons. It's not their field and what they hear about it only makes them suspicious. There is so much misinformation about the topic it's just sad.

[1] http://www.naturalnews.com/019404_psychiatry_psychiatric_dru... ( sorry couldn't find a better english source )

⬐ skue

It depends on the degree. I think the more compelling factors for the OP are that (a) this has been going on for years, (b) he has a very strong feeling that this is holding him back, and (c) his dad is the same way.

It's possible that he's so incredibly smart that he finds many things boring, and that's not ADHD. ADHD tends to lead to a lot of disorganization (across different settings: home, work, school), plus attempts at compensation (self-medication, self-stimulation, etc.)

But just to be clear: This is a random list, it's not meant to be diagnostic. If these resonate with the OP or someone similar then it might be worth learning more about ADHD and talking with a professional. Please don't assume you have ADHD just because these things hold true.

⬐ procastatron

I'm not "incredibly" smart. Top 5% sure, but there are people on here who have accomplished way more than me by my age and are way way smarter than me when it comes to programming.

One of the smartest people I've met online is a kid who is 18 now and built an entire OS, compiler etc all in Javascript just because he could. He routinely builds new languages and compilers for himself just to get better.

I really envy that kind of passion. I know in 10 years he'll probably have invented the next Ruby on Rails etc. But at the same time, I don't necessarily want to be the best programmer. I think I'm more inclined to be the best "product person" which at the end of the day still means programming, just with more of a business aspect.

⬐ segmondy

what kind of programming? what platform/OS/languages?

⬐ kevinSuttle

Thank you for posting this. There a lot of misconceptions about the disorder, and more people need to be re-educated so the stigma is removed.

⬐ LekkoscPiwa

willing to sit daily calm for 8 hours and code is a sign of autism? No? Works only one way, huh?

⬐ procastatron

I saw a school psych when I was in college and all it really did was piss me off.

The guy spent 30 minutes asking me these types of questions except even more generic and then afterwards said "Yep, you have ADD".

I hardly talked about myself and the way he phrased the questions made it super easy to say yes to all of them. He wrote me a prescription and I never got it filled because of how little I felt he actually had done. I've taken all kinds of ADD medicine from friends, etc but somehow getting a prescription from what seemed like a bullshit therapy session made me stop taking ADD drugs altogether.

If you read some of my other comments, when I take adderall, ritalin, daytrana etc I end up just being more focused in my procrastination. It's like my brain says, "I know what you're doing drug, and I'm going to fuck with you"

⬐ chernevik

That you took a bunch of meds doesn't mean you took the ones right for your particular condition. That you spoke to one psych who seemed a disinterested quack doesn't mean all doctors are.

The human brain is very complicated, executive function is one of its highest and most complicated tasks. Fixing it with Pill Powerball doesn't seem likely to me.

That you felt you were fighting the drug may suggest you have other issues to work out. Which really isn't surprising. If you've got serious ADD / ADHD, the hookup between events and your feelings / reactions to those events has been seriously impaired. Which means that all the internal mechanisms for monitoring and managing your emotional state, and the mechanisms for monitoring your relationships with other people and their reactions to your behavior, were seriously fucked up. Which your emotional development to date has been working with a distant echo of good information about how you and other people react to stuff.

That doesn't mean you have these conditions. It does mean you are improperly excluding the possibility.

Think about why that may be. Why might your brain fight a drug that might be helpful? Are you embarrassed by the possibility you have such a condition? Worried you'll be dependent on a drug? Well, too bad. If that's what's going on, that's what's going on, and running from it won't get you anywhere but right where you are.

I take a pill every day so I can think. I hate needing that pill. Well, boo-hoo for me. Again, I don't know whether you have this condition or not. But you certainly have a deep problem, and fixing it is going to take a long hard look in the mirror, and probably admitting some shit that you really don't want to hear. If you're batting away plausible explanations with responses like this, you aren't going to figure this out.

⬐ skue

The meds are not magical at all: they just help you be less distracted.

If you have been procrastinating for years and have a regular routine and numerous personal habits built around procrastination, those don't go away when you take a pill. All the meds do is make you more present, which would understandably make you more conscious of those routines and habits. That might not be fun -- but it is the first step in changing the habits.

Have you talked to anyone besides the school psych? If it is ADHD (and sorry to hear they half-assed your assessment), then meds are only part of the solution. Regular exercise, a more structured routine, eliminating distractions, finding a partner who supports you, etc. are also important.

You can learn more on your own via books or trial-and-error, or by finding a clinician who can be like a coach to help you figure out what works best for you. The book I listed above talks about all the non-med things you could be doing: one of the authors has ADHD but doesn't find meds helpful for him, so he uses a number of lifestyle changes and natural alternatives instead. Also, the authors have a specialized clinic outside of Boston, and there are other centers like this around, with people far more competent than the school psych who can spend the time to help figure this out.