HN Books @HNBooksMonth

I recommend reading this book: https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/...

I also recommend writing down your ideas. When you lose your train of thought you can refer back to what is written down.

Ask for help - tell the group you've lost your train of thought and ask what was the last thing you said. People do not want to see you fail, they will help you.

Acknowledge it is okay if you don't sound confident. It's only important to communicate what you aimed to communicate. Focus on that rather than what you sound like.

If you organized the meeting or presentation, send an agenda or materials in advance. Look for feedback in advance. Send followups to your information sharing. Summaries and further info. All this can be done in chat/email.

I guarantee that if you do these few things you will feel better within a month.

⬐ MeinBlutIstBlau

That book is snake oil written for introverts. Your ticket to confidence is public speaking, conversing with strangers, capable of holding conversations even with people you hate or are bored with, and leaving your damn room to do literally anything but staying at home. If you're still embarrassed to show vulnerability and that you have faults, you'll never be confident.

⬐ intricatedetail

What if you are not interested in other person private life, weather, etc I cannot find a point in those small talk conversations. Rarely people done anything interesting and it's hard to pretend you are genuinely interested. I rarely speak to people. How to find interest?

⬐ MeinBlutIstBlau

It's a social skill. Once you break past the facade that everybody partakes in you realize it makes people like you.

I used to think and act the same way. I'd never talk, I kept to myself, and didn't feel the need to talk about frivolous things. Then I realized I had no friends.

⬐ Graffur

Your comment is a bit of a mess but I'll try engage.

Did you read the book? What did you get from it? Assuming you don't consider yourself an introvert, how did you come to the conclusion it is snake oil for introverts?

Public speaking is not something everyone has to do or has to enjoy. Is public speaking mandatory for an artist, a carpenter, a small business owner, a kindergarten teacher, a nurse, a fireman, an accountant? (No is the answer). Not everyone needs to do a Ted Talk :)

If you think that introverts don't leave their "damn room" you have a misunderstanding of what you're discussing.

⬐ MeinBlutIstBlau

I don't consider myself an introvert. I very much was an introvert most of my teenaged and early 20's years. Now I don't consider myself either because I think it's stupid. Some weeks I really need to just stay in cause I have stuff I want or need to do. Other days I'm excited to go out.

I call it snake oil because it sells this idea that introverts are just misunderstood and not listened to enough because of their introspective nature. Well, if they want anyone to listen to them, they have to learn how to convey a message meaningful enough and with cultural/social tact that can only be earned through experiences with other people. Being an introvert will not garner you that.

It's not just "introverts need to leave their damn room" it's "if introverts wanna be heard, they need to become extroverts because they do not have the average social/emotional intelligence that extroverts do." The reason I say this is because there are a myriad of socialites with 0 skills whatsoever yet they hold a greater reach and clout than even the smartest programmer who just sits in his house all day coding. Why? Because they have people who will vouch for what they'll say. "Actions not words" certainly holds merit, but if you got 1,000 people who can vouch for you or are willing to lie on your behalf, it holds greater sway in human society than you being capable of maintaining the most complex and incredible code bases.

Until recently, I agreed with you, but I just read a book called Quiet (by Susan Cain) [1] about introversion, and in the book they give evidence that shows that many of corporate history's most successful leaders were introverts.

I highly recommend the book to anyone who thinks they're an introvert, manages introverts, or has introverted family members -- it helped me understand/be happy with many of my own personality traits that I'd overlooked or misunderstood. (And, after reading the book, I realize I'm an ambivert, not an introvert.)

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/...

I'm not the author of the original comment, but I recall reading a similar argument in the book:

Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain

https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/...

Anyone wanting to dig deeper into some of this might be interested in reading Susan Cain's "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking". [1]

It was a paradigm shifting book for me, made me understand some people in my life in profoundly new ways, and helped me discover stuff about my own personality. It's particularly interesting to think about introversion / extroversion in terms of managing energy levels.

1: https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/...

⬐ brokenmachine

I will check out the book, but I don't know how it could help someone trapped in a distracting open office hell.

Maybe it'd help the homicidal thoughts go away.

Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking [0]. This is surprisingly full of citations and references.

Assassin's Quest by Robin Hobb [1]. Stock fantasy at its best.

Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C Clarke [2]. Been stuck at halfway for too long, it gets boring in places.

[0]: http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d...

[1]: http://www.amazon.com/Assassins-Quest-Farseer-Trilogy-Book/d...

[2]: http://www.amazon.com/Rendezvous-Rama-Arthur-C-Clarke-ebook/...

This is an fairly ignorant post - it's well established that introversion has nothing to do with shyness [0] [1].

One common definition of extroversion vs introversion is that an introvert needs time alone to recharge, whereas an extrovert needs time around people to recharge.

I would suggest doing some reading on the topic to prevent undervaluing a large portion of the population. For example, see [2], or Susan Cain's "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" [3].

[0] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/introvert-myths_n_3...

[1] http://psychcentral.com/library/shyness.htm

[2] http://www.bustle.com/articles/56526-7-things-all-introverts...

[3] http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d...

⬐ gregjor

Although the original author identified as a "super introvert" the problem he or she is asking about does not seem like introversion, but rather shyness and social anxiety. The author describes going to social gatherings and "like[s] hanging out with people," but has problems carrying on a conversation. I didn't read this as a clinical diagnosis of introversion, but as someone asking for help dealing with specific social situtations. As your own sources point out many people conflate introversion with shyness, and based on what the original author actually described I inferred that shyness and anxiety are the actual issues, whether or not he or she is also truly introverted.

My personal anecdotes, as both an introverted personality and (formerly) shyness/social anxiety sufferer, are not meant as professional therapy. Take my stories and advice for what they are. They are presented as personal anecdotes, not psychology or self-help. Whether I know more about introversion and shyness than the distinguished Huffington Post, Psychology Today, or Bustle is left to the reader, but sites that also promote "One Weird Trick" and celebrity diet advice may not be the best sources for psychology information. Since I grew up around practicing psychiatrists and psychologists in my own family I know that basing a diagnosis on a Jungian dualistic principle is out of step with modern psychology.

Introversion and extroversion are not things people are; they are opposite directions on an arbitrary scale of personality types. Likewise social anxiety is a spectrum of behaviors and maladaptations, not a black spot in the brain you can see on a CAT scan. That's what I meant by no one "is" an introvert. Many people have behaviors that are commonly described as introversion, and also shyness and social anxiety. Those behaviors may overlap in an individual, or they may not. More important than the labels you or someone else attaches to your personality and behavior is understanding that how you perceive yourself, and how you present yourself and react to social situations, are things that most people can change. Some people can do it themselves, others may need professional guidance.

There's not enough information in the original article for me or anyone else to say if the author has an introvert personality, or suffers from shyness and social anxiety, or both. I addressed the actual problem the author described: difficulty meeting people and carrying on conversation.

Since the author specifically asks about networking in the SF Bay Area I will reiterate that listening is the best skill to develop, because he or she will be trying to network with many people who love nothing more than an audience so they can talk about themselves.

Definitely second petewarden's suggestions 'exercise' and 'get a hobby'. You do not have to join a gym or anything. Exercise can be something as simple as going walking for an hour with your iPod (or equivalent). No matter what the particular exercise, the fact is that it will usually get you out of your own head for awhile.

Aside from those I would suggest maybe reading Party of One [1] and/or Quiet [2], as they bring to light very well the fact that mainstream society unfairly and illogically looks down upon those who prefer aloneness. Being surrounded by laughing groups of sociable people has a way of making anyone not involved feel like they are missing out on something or that there is something wrong with them, when this might not be the case at all.

Props for such an honest post; and I hope you feel better soon.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Party-One-The-Loners-Manifesto/dp/1569...

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d...

This is a great book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d...

Introversion and extroversion have nothing to do with shyness or how outgoing you are. It has to do with where you derive energy and I disagree with the author of the linked article that introverts just need to practice social interaction. As the book points out, introversion and extroversion can be determined very early in life, she mentions a study where infants who were more reactive to stimulus turned out to be introverts and infants who were chill turned out to be extroverts:

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“The four-month-olds who thrashed their arms like punk rockers did so not because they were extroverts in the making, but because their little bodies reacted strongly—they were “high-reactive”—to new sights, sounds, and smells,” Cain writes. “The quiet infants were silent not because they were future introverts—just the opposite—but because they had nervous systems that were unmoved by novelty.” These “high-reactive” babies grow up to be children who need a lot of time to decompress after school, need time alone to be creative and explore. They are introverts, not anti-social, Cain explains. There is a big difference.

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⬐ gk1

Someone who's born small and skinny can still become strong later on. I was "the quiet kid" until I consciously worked to improve my social skills. Now when I tell people I was "the quiet kid" they laugh until they realize I'm serious.

⬐ colanderman

Quiet != introverted. For example, I'm an introvert (need alone time) but I'm not quiet (I was the class clown).

⬐ rodw

Spot on. Also, introverted != shy. I've known plenty of introverts who are very capable of working a room if they need to, they just prefer not to.

⬐ skunkworks

I think this is generally true, but only up to a point. Someone who is weak can become stronger, but our maximal fitness levels are largely genetic.

This is, of course, not a useful thing to point out to someone who is weak (or an introvert). I am a firm believer in two things: Carol Dweck's idea of the "growth mindset", and that our energy is best spent on things we can control and not on things we cannot. Introverts can train themselves to have social interactions drain them less. They may never be loquacious, but good enough is good enough.

⬐ logfromblammo

I don't find any value in training myself to fake the sorts of social interactions other people enjoy. Some people like to talk about football games. I find that to be tedious and useless. I am perfectly willing to participate in non-football discussion, but since that seems to be the lowest conversational denominator around here, I don't often find myself speaking about any subject in gatherings larger than a certain size.

At a certain level, it feels like there is a social bloc with a plurality, who pressures all other groups to conform for its convenience. I don't feel the need to do that. Expecting me to act like them makes about as much sense as me expecting them to learn to juggle on a unicycle, or fly model aircraft, or play a particular game, or read books by a certain author, or practice hobby gunsmithing, or perform amateur stand-up comedy.

Why? Why would anyone expect an "introvert" to pretend to be more like "extroverts"? What they should be doing is socializing in a non-painful way with people who share their interests.

⬐ minikites

That's true, I didn't mean to imply practicing was worthless. But if you're born small and skinny and grow up to be 5'5" you're probably not going to be an NFL linebacker. That doesn't mean you shouldn't still exercise, just that you might not be suited for some things.

⬐ asdasf

That has nothing to do with the subject though. Being shy and being an introvert are not the same thing. I am not shy, I am not "the quiet guy". I am an introvert. There is nothing to fix or improve.

⬐ dwc

I'm an introvert, and I also learned to be more outgoing. I love talking with people, going out, etc., but then I need lots of "alone time" between those kinds of activities. I'm still an introvert.

⬐ mithras

Same for me. I enjoy social activities and have learned good social skills, but I still need my recharge time alone.

⬐ dfraser992

I remember reading about a study that determined there was a biological difference in terms of how "introverts" and "extroverts" (using your definitions) processed information. The nervous system of the introverts processed information along a slower pathway, and through a different route, but more thoroughly. If I can manage to track down that URL, I will update my comment.

"Introverted" and "extroverted" refer to the external behavioral differences that one can use to categorize people. "Introvert" and "extrovert" are different terms and more refer to people's mental focus, or Jung's explanation of where they get their mental energy. But you can't conflate the two. The most talkative person I've known classified himself as a introvert. I, on the other hand, can be extroverted, but I don't particularly like people nor do I get so much out of interacting with them that I feel compelled to be extroverted. In other words, "introverted extroverts" are the shy people - "introverted introverts" don't really give a damn.

But the OP's article is certainly useful; I'd say he just needs to be more precise about the terms he uses and how it's primarily about the behavioral aspects of interacting with people. The idea that it is "draining" to use underdeveloped skills made sense to me.

⬐ Dewie

> > They are introverts, not anti-social, Cain explains. There is a big difference.

And might as well mention that asocial is a more fitting word than anti-social if the intent is to describe lack of willingness to participate in social environments. "Anti-social" is better if one is describing behaviour that is socially destructive, like violence.

<insert "but languages evolve" reply here>

⬐ makmanalp

I don't know who came up with the "where they derive energy" explanation, but I see it mentioned as the correct answer all over the place, and I can't relate to this at all.

I derive my energy from food and sleep ... Jokes aside, I have no clue what people are talking about when they say this. I don't feel energized by talking to people, and I don't feel energized by doing alone-time activities. I don't even see what energy has anything to do with having or not having interaction.

I also don't think "deriving energy" is anywhere near being a measurable scientific event but rather an ill-defined handwavy concept.

⬐ deelowe

After spending a full afternoon at a dinner party with colleagues, do you feel a) happy, refreshed, and ready to do it again tomorrow or b) drained, tired and wanting to just be alone for a while to recuperate? I'm the latter, which is traditionally classified as introverted. To flip it around, the extrovert would feel drained, tired, and wanting of some social interaction after spending an afternoon sitting in front of a computer (my wife is like this).

Energy is a metaphor for the "stress level," of the individual for lack of a better term.

⬐ bkj123

I'm the same and did not discover this until about the 5th time I took the Myers-Briggs Personality Test. My initial tests had me almost exactly between extroversion and introversion.

On my last test, the facilitator explained the energy/stress aspect with a number of examples like your dinner party. She also mentioned people are naturally one or the other, not 50/50.

I realized that my natural inclination was introversion. I believe that what I perceived as my extroverted side was learned through a social upbringing to engage others, which is beneficial. There are a number of social/extroverted things that I sincerely enjoy but I walk away exhausted.

⬐ dwc

"Energy" is a metaphor to which most people relate so it gets used a lot. Stress level might be a good thing to examine on the other side. If I spend too much time in traditionally extroverted activities I start to get fuzzy-headed and show signs of fatigue, then irritability and stress. There's a balance point where I'm at my best, and that point is when I'm getting lots of uninterrupted solitude but having daily interaction with my core group of people (family, close friends). For other people the balance point is very different. Being far away from your balance point for extended periods leaves one feeling out of sorts, stressed, and maybe even a bit desperate.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not so much that one side is a source of energy. It's just normal. It's more that the opposite side is draining.

⬐ Tloewald

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

Extraverts are described as being "higher energy" rather than getting energy from X rather than Y.

As I understand it, the big five is one of the better regarded personality measures among personality psychologists, and "Extraversion" (sic.) is one of the measures. Psychological measures are generally better regarded if they produce more repeatable results (Briggs-Meyers, which despite being discredited is still popular, also uses a -- somewhat different -- extroversion scale).

⬐ nawitus

I think that the "introverts just need energy for social interaction" is a recent innovation created by non-specialists, and the word "introvert" used to mean just that - the opposite of extrovert.

Wikipedia states that the 'energy explanation' is a characterization by a few popular writers: "Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction." - Wikipedia (Introvert)

I've seen the 'energy explanation' repeated in social media like hundreds of times. They start by saying that everyone who belives that introversion is the opposite of extroversion is false, even though they're themselves focusing on a theory fully supported only by popular writers.

Perhaps in 10 years the classical definition of the word 'introvert' is lost and the 'energy explanation' wins, because for some reason it spreads like wildfire in social media. My own gut-feeling is that 'introvertism' has been high-status social quality in certain social circles (e.g. 'nerds'), and now some people feel like they want to attribute it to themselves.

⬐ gadders

I can relate to the energy theory.

If I spend a day with people outside my close friends and family, I definitely need some "quiet time" to recover. For instance, on work trips to another office you invariably get invited out for dinner/drinks after the working day, and I'd much rather sit in my hotel room eating roomservice.

⬐ Guvante

It is incredibly important when looking at these kinds of measures to realize it is not a simple yes/no. Introvert/Extrovert. It is a range of possibilities. For instance many people are very near the center, and find both kinds of activities equally enjoyable.

They don't get particularly "recharged" in that vague sense, but they never get discharged by the opposite either.

⬐ hga

Let me give you a significant and relevant to HN personal example. In the early '90s I worked for a small company where the VP of sales, who was our "closer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_(sales) and I would together make critical sales calls. I'd be wearing my normal casual clothes, Oxford shirt, black jeans, New Balance 99x running shoes (grey back then, but always understated), in part for verisimilitude, and would answer all the technical questions, perhaps make a presentation of the system we were proposing to build for them. Basically convince them that we had the technical chops to get the job done, and this approach was quite successful.

I might be mistaken for the non-energy model of an extrovert during one of these sessions, obviously being e.g. shy or retiring wouldn't work, nor is that in my nature.

The difference I perceived between my extroverted salesmen partners and myself was that I wasn't good for much of anything the next day, as I "recharged my batteries" or whatever you want to call it; call it an "ill-defined handwavy concept" not particularly "a measurable scientific event", but I know my productivity, how it works and doesn't, going back to long before I became a programmer. So I firmly believe this phenomena exists, even if you yourself are in-between both of these "types".

This isn't directly related to your question about jobs, but Susan Cain (an introvert herself) has some interesting insights into how introverts fit in to a culture that's biased toward extroverts.

Here's her TED talk from 2012 (19 min.):

http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_cain_the_power_of_introverts....

If you like that, you might enjoy her book on introverts:

http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d...

That's understandable. I read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d... and I felt a lot less guilty after more thoroughly understanding myself and what introversion is (not necessarily the same as misanthropy or social anxiety)

⬐ hjay

I saw the picture of Susan Cain (the author) on that page and I thought she was awfully familiar. It was then that I realized she was the lady who gave this talk http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_cain_the_power_of_introverts.... a while back.

Enjoyed the talk, I will be looking to buy this book once I'm done with my current reading schedule.

⬐ dwc

That was a great talk. The book is also great, and definitely worthwhile.

Quiet: The Power of Introverts really opened my eyes to the fact that other people feel the way I do and that it's alright to be "introverted". I highly recommend it if you haven't read it and this type of subject matter is enjoyable for you.

(non-affil link) http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d...

⬐ city41

Thanks! I've not read that. I just ordered it.

⬐ MartinCron

I came here to recommend the same book, so I'll just second your recommendation. The writing is sometimes a little too cute for its own good, but it's an excellent read.